DO applying for MD ortho

[cuddlepuppy]

I agree with Pin-Lag-Lock, if a DO applicant truly wants MD ortho and feels that they are competitive against the best of the best MD applicants than apply to MD ortho programs and definitely do an audition rotation there.

BUT, my question is...what's wrong with DO programs. If you want to be an orthopedic surgeon, either route will train you well. Ortho is hard to match into whether it be DO or MD. If DO applicants have the luxury of DO ortho programs solely for DOs...take advantage of that. There are pros/cons to DO vs. MD programs (pm me if you'd like), but both will prepare you to practice on your own.

With that said, I think many DO applicants could be very competitive in the MD ortho world. But it is true that these top DO applicants are offered DO spots early on and it would be foolish to push those aside. Reject sure thing for a chance at another. It takes a lot of soul searching to figure out if you're willing to risk not matching by going for an MD spot.

IF you want to try at MD ortho, ROTATE there. No matter what the bias, if you show up, work hard, bring your "A" game and you have an application that rivals competitive MD applicants, I believe that you will be viewed as an equal come rank list time.

It is a tough road, but in the end very exciting. Good luck.

CP

pm me with any questions
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[OrthoMDPHD]

No offense but DO's in an MD Ortho program are like unicorns...I've heard of them but I've never actually seen one. (and that's after 5 years of residency)

 

[iliacus]

No offense but DO's in an MD Ortho program are like unicorns...I've heard of them but I've never actually seen one. (and that's after 5 years of residency)

No offense taken

http://www.ttuortho.com/view_biography.asp?ID=17

http://www.ttuortho.com/view_biography.asp?ID=16

http://www.hscj.ufl.edu/ortho/osr/residents.asp

http://www.mcg.edu/resident/ortho/currentres.html

http://cms.clevelandclinic.org/ortho/body.cfm?id=243

If you ever do run into a unicorn don't play leap frog with it.

 

[cuddlepuppy]

No offense, I've never been called a unicorn before though. It can happen. My program has had 2 previous DOs that I know of in their existence as a residency program.

 

[fbf]

So it has been answered that landing a spot in allo programs is possible and doable.
but, why? what's so good about allo ortho programs? You are a DO no matter what programs you are in and you treat the same types of patients. Why bother?
No offense, I just don't understand it.

 

[Bull's eye]

So it has been answered that landing a spot in allo programs is possible and doable.
but, why? what's so good about allo ortho programs? You are a DO no matter what programs you are in and you treat the same types of patients. Why bother?
No offense, I just don't understand it.

There is a common belief in the DO world that MD training is better in one regard or another. I don't blame them for wanting the best training possbile, but that belief is unfounded in my experience and definately isn't true in my program or any of the 5 that I rotated at as a student (3 DO and 2 MD). Fact is, all programs have their problems. Examples... weak didactics, no tumor, not enough cases, too much of one subspecialty, or fellows/chief residents doing all the operating. Those are a range examples of problems ANY program from the Best MD/DO programs to the worst MD/DO programs can have. Trick is to find out where the best fit for you is at and go for it.

 

[JDWflash44]

No offense taken

http://www.ttuortho.com/view_biography.asp?ID=17

http://www.ttuortho.com/view_biography.asp?ID=16

http://www.hscj.ufl.edu/ortho/osr/residents.asp

http://www.mcg.edu/resident/ortho/currentres.html

http://cms.clevelandclinic.org/ortho/body.cfm?id=243

If you ever do run into a unicorn don't play leap frog with it.

I think that yes it is doable, but it is very hard. If you look at table 11 of the NRMP match data from this year (2008) it shows that the aren't that good:

Number of DOs matched to MD Ortho positions:
2004: 1
2005: 4
2006: 3
2007: 2
2008: 2 (out of 636 positions)

So of those links that you are showing above they make up about half of the DOs that matched in the last 5 years.

 

[SOUNDMAN]

But how many actual DO's applied MD ortho? I can't think that it would be that many. I'm contemplating applying MD ortho as a DO, and scored well 245/99 on STEP I, but I know it will be an uphill battle being a DO. I did talk to a program director I know and he thought I was a very competitive applicant and they have ranked DO's in the past, but who knows for sure. Definitely have to shine on some aways and all that good stuff.

My problem with the DO ortho, is that most of them are not in places that I want to live, I really want to stay in the midwest and I have a family with kids, so that is important to me, but most DO ortho are in Michigan, ohio, or further east. Very few in the midwest.

 

[MossPoh]

Yea, showing the number who matched allo MD as a DO is kind of unfair. The DO match is first, and once you match you are taking out of the allopathic. It takes someone pretty ballsy to skip out on the osteopathic match and only put your eggs into MD. The ones that do tend to have very strong stats.

 

[cuddlepuppy]

True...every ortho program (MD or DO) has their advantages and disadvanatages. I rotated at some DO programs that were better than some of the MD community hospitals that I interviewed at. It all depends on what you want out of your training and career. It's been beaten to death that the general opinion is that DO = community hospital, early surgical experience, little formal didactics and MD = big, academic institution, possibly less operative experience, structured didactics. In general, yes...it seems true. But you may thrive in one versus the other. In the end, both DO and MD trained orthopedic surgeons are the same...orthopedic surgeons. And, you'd be kidding if you didn't agree that Grandview, PCOM, or Doctor's is more presitigious than Hopkins, HSS, Mayo, Cleveland clinic. Does prestige matter? No, but those institutions are at the forefront of orthopedics in the world, can't deny that.

 

[DOme2009]

 

[all stock]

Why is this stickied and the last post was like, 4 years ago?

Ok, here is an update and some insight from an DO PGY1 Intern who applied during his MS4 year to MD Ortho, got scared when it came to rank programs and went DO. Here is my experience and things to learn from.

1. You need to go all the way. Rotate with as many MD programs as possible. Withdraw from the DO match.
-If you want truly want to match MD ortho, you need to withdraw, or you will match DO first if participating in the match. (this may change in 2015 perhaps after the merge/accreditation process).
-If you are scared that you won't match MD (or they won't contract you), then I recommend you don't do it. It's EXTREMELY nerve racking. Especially if they don't contract you.

2. Your stats need to be good. 250+ USMLE 1/2, COMLEX 1/2 600+
3. More importantly, your rotation grades need to be great.
4. Unlike DO ortho programs, you have to have research.
5. Letters from high profiles will help. Otherwise, they are just another piece of paper to sift through.
6. Have common sense like other audition rotations: get along with others, don't be lazy, don't be annoying, etc..

It's hard being a DO applying to competitive MD residencies. To them, you are an unknown. They don't know how reputable your school is, your undergraduate training, or your ability. It would be much easier for them to simply accept someone from Wash U, Johns Hopkins, NYU, UCSF because they assume the student has received good training. The fine line is rotating there and demonstrating your ability without coming across as a prick with an inferiority complex. Keep this in mind when rotating.

This past match, 2 DO's matched into the 600+ allopathic spots. The one I know was contracted. And it only gets more competitive.

Honestly, if you apply to top DO ortho programs, you will be getting similar training to good MD ortho programs. Residency is similar to everything else in life; you get out what you put in.

 

[bleeker10]

Why is this stickied and the last post was like, 4 years ago?

Ok, here is an update and some insight from an DO PGY1 Intern who applied during his MS4 year to MD Ortho, got scared when it came to rank programs and went DO. Here is my experience and things to learn from.

1. You need to go all the way. Rotate with as many MD programs as possible. Withdraw from the DO match.
-If you want truly want to match MD ortho, you need to withdraw, or you will match DO first if participating in the match. (this may change in 2015 perhaps after the merge/accreditation process).
-If you are scared that you won't match MD (or they won't contract you), then I recommend you don't do it. It's EXTREMELY nerve racking. Especially if they don't contract you.

2. Your stats need to be good. 250+ USMLE 1/2, COMLEX 1/2 600+
3. More importantly, your rotation grades need to be great.
4. Unlike DO ortho programs, you have to have research.
5. Letters from high profiles will help. Otherwise, they are just another piece of paper to sift through.
6. Have common sense like other audition rotations: get along with others, don't be lazy, don't be annoying, etc..

It's hard being a DO applying to competitive MD residencies. To them, you are an unknown. They don't know how reputable your school is, your undergraduate training, or your ability. It would be much easier for them to simply accept someone from Wash U, Johns Hopkins, NYU, UCSF because they assume the student has received good training. The fine line is rotating there and demonstrating your ability without coming across as a prick with an inferiority complex. Keep this in mind when rotating.

This past match, 2 DO's matched into the 600+ allopathic spots. The one I know was contracted. And it only gets more competitive.

Honestly, if you apply to top DO ortho programs, you will be getting similar training to good MD ortho programs. Residency is similar to everything else in life; you get out what you put in.

What scared you away? Was it the number of interviews? Lack of followup communication? I am applying military ortho this year and this doesn't really pertain to me, but it would be good for other applicants to know. Thanks for the advice though

 

[all stock]

What scared you away? Was it the number of interviews? Lack of followup communication? I am applying military ortho this year and this doesn't really pertain to me, but it would be good for other applicants to know. Thanks for the advice though

At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself: Is it worth it?

I was not offered a contract at the places I interviewed at. And I didn't rotate at just MD programs. Thus, instead of having lots of good chances as MD programs, I had some chances at MD and some at DO.

So, would it be worth the risk to withdraw?

I did not follow rule #1. That was my failure. So, this is my advice for all you guys who want to pursue it. I think it's totally doable. But if you make that decision, you have to go all the way.

The question will always remain would I have matched MD if I dropped out? I'm confident I would have, but hindsight is always 20/20.

PS, I'd actually recommend comlex of 650+ or 700+.

 

[cuddlepuppy]

I have never heard of an ACGME Ortho program giving a contract to a DO student. I would not hold out for something like this because it will never happen.

Bottom line...What would an allopathic ortho residency offer you that a good osteopathic ortho program could not?

If you have a reason and have your heart set on it, take a chance. Realizing that you may have to settle for a prelim spot somewhere or scramble into an undesirable program or (more likely a different specialty) if you do not match MD ortho.

At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself: Is it worth it?

I was not offered a contract at the places I interviewed at. And I didn't rotate at just MD programs. Thus, instead of having lots of good chances as MD programs, I had some chances at MD and some at DO.

So, would it be worth the risk to withdraw?

I did not follow rule #1. That was my failure. So, this is my advice for all you guys who want to pursue it. I think it's totally doable. But if you make that decision, you have to go all the way.

The question will always remain would I have matched MD if I dropped out? I'm confident I would have, but hindsight is always 20/20.

PS, I'd actually recommend comlex of 650+ or 700+.

 

[OrthoPathic]

Don't know where else to post this question so reviving an old thread. As a DO graduating from a DO residency (will be ACGME by the time I graduate I guess), is Step 2 a must have for applying to fellowship spots? I got a great step 1 wondering if it's even worth the risk of possibly going down for Step 2.

 

[OrthoPathic]

Thanks for the reply. That is correct, I'm wondering about the value of having a Step 2 score purely for fellowship application purposes, not for licensing purposes. Your second point is an important one and from what I read on the ACGME website, those graduating in 2021 after the program receives accreditation will be considered in the same way (at least for eligibility purposes) as anyone else who graduated from any other ACGME program. Though this will be something I will definitely confirm with all the program directors.

 

[apr27]

What programs have DOs that matched ACGME ortho? Anyone know?

 

[OrthoPathic]

I did extensive research on this. Here is what I know of: Texas Tech, Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Geisinger, Banner Good Sam in AZ, JPS in Fort Worth. Out of these, many of them had ties to the program (family member was a resident, had home rotations at the program etc etc.) I had stellar stats on USMLE 260+/270+. I'll tell you right now its a mostly a fool's errand. I applied to 35 programs and received only 6 interview invites, and though I did get a good impression from a 1 or 2 programs, you'd be a madman to skip the DO match and go for MD at this point in the game. If you're good enough to even consider MD ortho, you'll land a DO spot provided you're not a psychopath and an utter buffoon. To turn that down when most AOA programs will undergo the merger before you're through residency (meaning you graduate from an ACGME program) is not just ballsy, it's foolish. Having interviewed at many DO and MD programs now, I will say this, if you goto a well established DO program, you will come out as a competent and capable surgeon, just like at an MD institution. The big differences will be research, name brand recognition, and crazy cutting edge procedures you might not see in the community setting. There's nothing wrong with trying, but in retrospect I would have rather saved that crap ton of money I threw down the well on applying to MD programs.

 

[apr27]

I did extensive research on this. Here is what I know of: Texas Tech, Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Geisinger, Banner Good Sam in AZ, JPS in Fort Worth. Out of these, many of them had ties to the program (family member was a resident, had home rotations at the program etc etc.) I had stellar stats on USMLE 260+/270+. I'll tell you right now its a mostly a fool's errand. I applied to 35 programs and received only 6 interview invites, and though I did get a good impression from a 1 or 2 programs, you'd be a madman to skip the DO match and go for MD at this point in the game. If you're good enough to even consider MD ortho, you'll land a DO spot provided you're not a psychopath and an utter buffoon. To turn that down when most AOA programs will undergo the merger before you're through residency (meaning you graduate from an ACGME program) is not just ballsy, it's foolish. Having interviewed at many DO and MD programs now, I will say this, if you goto a well established DO program, you will come out as a competent and capable surgeon, just like at an MD institution. The big differences will be research, name brand recognition, and crazy cutting edge procedures you might not see in the community setting. There's nothing wrong with trying, but in retrospect I would have rather saved that crap ton of money I threw down the well on applying to MD programs.

Appreciate it!