DNP or Resident

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Let's look at exams. What kind do you have in PA and Med school? If you have multiple choice like many instructors write you aren't getting much. Recalling memorized information is the lowest level of learning. You can write multiple choice questions to test comprehension, application, analysis, synthesis, and evaluation but I'll bet most instructors don't know how to do that.

I heard about a professor who gave out his tests before exam date. He knew most would forget about half of the crap he covered during the semester and he wanted them to know the key points. So he gave out the test with what he wanted them to focus on and told them they had to get it 100% correct. It wasn't multiple choice either.

unless you yourself have attended nursing, graduate and medical school (like I have) you are in no way qualified to make such statements about the rigor of exams (or the comparison of) especially which such matter of fact authority you seem to think you have. For example, I would never make such matter of fact all knowing claims about the level of learning in engineering school,etc.

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Let's look at exams. What kind do you have in PA and Med school? If you have multiple choice like many instructors write you aren't getting much. Recalling memorized information is the lowest level of learning. You can write multiple choice questions to test comprehension, application, analysis, synthesis, and evaluation but I'll bet most instructors don't know how to do that.

I heard about a professor who gave out his tests before exam date. He knew most would forget about half of the crap he covered during the semester and he wanted them to know the key points. So he gave out the test with what he wanted them to focus on and told them they had to get it 100% correct. It wasn't multiple choice either.

Oh and also PA school (since you seem to know what level of learning they are tested at as well). I myself cannot comment too much on PA exams, since I never attended PA school.
 
Let's look at exams. What kind do you have in PA and Med school? If you have multiple choice like many instructors write you aren't getting much. Recalling memorized information is the lowest level of learning. You can write multiple choice questions to test comprehension, application, analysis, synthesis, and evaluation but I'll bet most instructors don't know how to do that.

I heard about a professor who gave out his tests before exam date. He knew most would forget about half of the crap he covered during the semester and he wanted them to know the key points. So he gave out the test with what he wanted them to focus on and told them they had to get it 100% correct. It wasn't multiple choice either.

They do write those kind of exams in med school. If you don't know how to recall, comprehend, apply information, analyze, synthesize, and evaluate a scenario, then you are not going to pass med school. You are definitely not going to pass in med school
 
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are the PA hours direct contact or just time spent at the clinical site, because mine (CRNA) are solely case time, not the time between or the time in preop clinic or just time spent in the hospital.
 
unless you yourself have attended nursing, graduate and medical school (like I have) you are in no way qualified to make such statements about the rigor of exams (or the comparison of) especially which such matter of fact authority you seem to think you have. For example, I would never make such matter of fact all knowing claims about the level of learning in engineering school,etc.

Perhaps you need some reading comprehension skills. Just for your info, I am well qualified on writing and taking exams. I didn't say anything about me attending PA or med school. I was asking about the exams in those programs. The "authority" I do have is that of an ex-assistant professor, two graduate degrees, teaching in nursing schools, teaching hapkido and zen shiatsu, writing exams for other universities and being a student at 11 universities, and having a teacher wife. So, you could say I'm pretty damn well versed on being both a student and teacher, don't ya think? :D

What I'm wondering about is what "training" do professors in PA and med school have in "education."
 
Perhaps you need some reading comprehension skills. Just for your info, I am well qualified on writing and taking exams. I didn't say anything about me attending PA or med school. I was asking about the exams in those programs. The "authority" I do have is that of an ex-assistant professor, two graduate degrees, teaching in nursing schools, teaching hapkido and zen shiatsu, writing exams for other universities and being a student at 11 universities, and having a teacher wife. So, you could say I'm pretty damn well versed on being both a student and teacher, don't ya think? :D

What I'm wondering about is what "training" do professors in PA and med school have in "education."

you have thrown out these credentials before zen, attending 11 schools etc, like I said, were you EVER a medical student and a nursing student anoud a graduate student??? Did not think so. Unless you have been through THOSE programs you cannot speak with such authority. If you reallit think that your zen courses, "teaching" and have a wife as a teacher makes you somehow experience actually being in those programs, then I guess I cannot reason with you anyways.
 
Perhaps you need some reading comprehension skills. Just for your info, I am well qualified on writing and taking exams. I didn't say anything about me attending PA or med school. I was asking about the exams in those programs. The "authority" I do have is that of an ex-assistant professor, two graduate degrees, teaching in nursing schools, teaching hapkido and zen shiatsu, writing exams for other universities and being a student at 11 universities, and having a teacher wife. So, you could say I'm pretty damn well versed on being both a student and teacher, don't ya think? :D

What I'm wondering about is what "training" do professors in PA and med school have in "education."

oh and you didn't ask about them, you basically stated what low level of understanding PA and MD schools test.
 
Noeljan, read what zenman wrote again. He never claimed to have taken the exams or know what those particular exams are like. He was stating how SOME multiple choice exams are in some programs and demonstrating how those exams don't test proficiency. He never claimed to know of those are the type of exams adminstered in PA or medical schools. Talk about taking a simple comment, throwing it way out of proportion, and way overexaggerating. Eeshh... have a bad few days?
 
Noeljan, read what zenman wrote again. He never claimed to have taken the exams or know what those particular exams are like. He was stating how SOME multiple choice exams are in some programs and demonstrating how those exams don't test proficiency. He never claimed to know of those are the type of exams adminstered in PA or medical schools. Talk about taking a simple comment, throwing it way out of proportion, and way overexaggerating. Eeshh... have a bad few days?


no I know what he said (and the way it was implied). :smuggrin:
 
no I know what he said (and the way it was implied). :smuggrin:

Apparently you don't. Maybe you're what my wife calls, "A product of the American public school system."

Let me break this down for you. Here's my original comment;

"Let's look at exams.(this seems to be clear) What kind do you have in PA and Med school? (just a simple question since I have no knowledge in that area) If (this is an "if" question) you have multiple choice like many instructors write you aren't getting much (pretty damn true for any setting). Recalling memorized information is the lowest level of learning. You can write multiple choice questions to test comprehension, application, analysis, synthesis, and evaluation but I'll bet (figure of speech) most instructors don't know how to do that (is this also clear?)."

I listed my experience (and will do it anytime it is called for) so you will know I speak from experience. It's kinda like you listed your experience in "nursing. graduate school and medical school." Is it not? Try to get over that if you can. Now, that we are clear on your experience as a nursing, graduate and medical student, do you have any experience in "education" (on the teaching, exam writing side)?

Get some help with your "(and the way it was implied)." May I suggest Robert A. Johnson's book, Inner Gold: Understanding Psychological Projection?
 
Noeljan, read what zenman wrote again. He never claimed to have taken the exams or know what those particular exams are like. He was stating how SOME multiple choice exams are in some programs and demonstrating how those exams don't test proficiency. He never claimed to know of those are the type of exams adminstered in PA or medical schools. Talk about taking a simple comment, throwing it way out of proportion, and way overexaggerating. Eeshh... have a bad few days?

:thumbup: Very clear wasn't it?
 
Apparently you don't. Maybe you're what my wife calls, "A product of the American public school system."

Let me break this down for you. Here's my original comment;

"Let's look at exams.(this seems to be clear) What kind do you have in PA and Med school? (just a simple question since I have no knowledge in that area) If (this is an "if" question) you have multiple choice like many instructors write you aren't getting much (pretty damn true for any setting). Recalling memorized information is the lowest level of learning. You can write multiple choice questions to test comprehension, application, analysis, synthesis, and evaluation but I'll bet (figure of speech) most instructors don't know how to do that (is this also clear?)."

I listed my experience (and will do it anytime it is called for) so you will know I speak from experience. It's kinda like you listed your experience in "nursing. graduate school and medical school." Is it not? Try to get over that if you can. Now, that we are clear on your experience as a nursing, graduate and medical student, do you have any experience in "education" (on the teaching, exam writing side)?

Get some help with your "(and the way it was implied)." May I suggest Robert A. Johnson's book, Inner Gold: Understanding Psychological Projection?

whatever. First you need to chillax and stop with the personal insults (btw there is nothing wrong with going to public schools). It is not just this post. I have read your posts before in this forum, and you often claim things about the PA or MD education (all I am saying is to be careful with making such matter of fact assumptions based on experience that has nothing to do with the said educational programs). I could care less what derogatory remarks your wife has for "products of public schools" I am sure my accomplishments speak for themselves. Seriously you need to get over yourself and all of your "experience". Now, merry xmas. Oh and ps, yes I have experience teaching as well but this has nothing to do with the matter at hand. I listed my experiences in all three programs because I often have read you make these claims about this vs that program and I am actually someone who HAS done them. BTW people can be very crafty with multiple choice exams. Actually they are all or none while testing multiple levels of sythesis of information (as compared to long answer that I had in grad school where partial credit was awarded).
 
Apparently you don't. Maybe you're what my wife calls, "A product of the American public school system."

Let me break this down for you. Here's my original comment;

"Let's look at exams.(this seems to be clear) What kind do you have in PA and Med school? (just a simple question since I have no knowledge in that area) If (this is an "if" question) you have multiple choice like many instructors write you aren't getting much (pretty damn true for any setting). Recalling memorized information is the lowest level of learning. You can write multiple choice questions to test comprehension, application, analysis, synthesis, and evaluation but I'll bet (figure of speech) most instructors don't know how to do that (is this also clear?)."

I listed my experience (and will do it anytime it is called for) so you will know I speak from experience. It's kinda like you listed your experience in "nursing. graduate school and medical school." Is it not? Try to get over that if you can. Now, that we are clear on your experience as a nursing, graduate and medical student, do you have any experience in "education" (on the teaching, exam writing side)?

Get some help with your "(and the way it was implied)." May I suggest Robert A. Johnson's book, Inner Gold: Understanding Psychological Projection?


and who are you to say it is true in pretty much any setting? I guess that is what I don't like about your claims/posts. You think you are some expert on everything because of your zen, 11 schools, wife (haha), yada yada yada
 
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whatever. First you need to chillax and stop with the personal insults

You started with the personal insults. You attacked without cause. It is an anonymous public forum. We are all entitled to our own opinions. You've stated yours. Drop it.
 
You started with the personal insults. You attacked without cause. It is an anonymous public forum. We are all entitled to our own opinions. You've stated yours. Drop it.

nope, I really don't think I made any personal attacks. I simply stated the fact that one without true experience in something is not a real expert (in that area). If it came off that way I do apologize. I guess tone is sometimes hard to understand when people are writing online/emails, etc.
 
whatever. First you need to chillax and stop with the personal insults (btw there is nothing wrong with going to public schools). It is not just this post. I have read your posts before in this forum, and you often claim things about the PA or MD education (all I am saying is to be careful with making such matter of fact assumptions based on experience that has nothing to do with the said educational programs). I could care less what derogatory remarks your wife has for "products of public schools" I am sure my accomplishments speak for themselves. Seriously you need to get over yourself and all of your "experience". Now, merry xmas. Oh and ps, yes I have experience teaching as well but this has nothing to do with the matter at hand. I listed my experiences in all three programs because I often have read you make these claims about this vs that program and I am actually someone who HAS done them. BTW people can be very crafty with multiple choice exams. Actually they are all or none while testing multiple levels of sythesis of information (as compared to long answer that I had in grad school where partial credit was awarded).

Let's remember you started this based on false assumptions. However, I will end it as I'm heading out on a trip for two weeks and SDN will not be high on my agenda. Your accomplishments are yours and congrats on them.

However, public school education is a disgrace. This is important in case you have kids. I'm sure you can google and get the latest news on that subject. The last time I went back to teaching in a university setting, the university had started offering remedial courses. I couldn't believe it! They had to in order to get some of the current HS grads up to snuff in order to take the lower level courses. Sad, really sad.

Please try to get over this fixation you have on my experience. Other people on this forum have detailed their experience and it helps in knowing where they are coming from. You will be asked many times in your career (I'm sure you know this) about your experience. Yes, I have a lot of experience in some areas and I've had an exciting life but so what? I'm the one living it and that's all that matters.:D
 
and who are you to say it is true in pretty much any setting? I guess that is what I don't like about your claims/posts. You think you are some expert on everything because of your zen, 11 schools, wife (haha), yada yada yada

This is just something you need to deal with. For the record, I don't think I'm an expert on anything, I consider myself a "generalist." I get bored easily and tend to learn quickly so I moved on to other areas frequently. Actually, I've miscounted. I've been to 12 schools which is an ungodly pain whenever I have to request transcripts!

Now, let me go have a few beers with the rioting students in Greece and then head to sunny Bangkok to see what's happening. Everyone have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
 
However, public school education is a disgrace. This is important in case you have kids.

Let's say that MOST public school education is a disgrace. I went to a public high school and it was a good one. We had some of the highest test scores in the state and one of the highest graduation rates in the state. My sister is a senior there and she's taking 5 AP classes right now and one class that will knock out Spanish I/II at the college level. Most public education isn't up to par, but some are :)
 
..aaaaaaaaaaannnnd we're back on topic. Thanks.

Well that is a bit different then all of your other posts, complete change, well if you are looking for the statment are there poorly trained NP's sure as well as poorly trained MD's PA's etc, etc. The stories are a legion.
The concern that distance learing provides poor educaztion is not backed up by any data just personnal opinion, which of course you may have, but it is not fact.

There are differences in online and residential learning in the area of more complex reasoning. Check out the following:

Anstine, J., Skidmore, M. A Small Sample Study of Traditional and Online Courses with Sample Selection Adjustment. Journal of Economic Education. Washington: Spring 2005. Vol. 36, Iss. 2; pg. 107, 21 pgs.

While it isn't directly healthcare related, the findings speak to some of the issues that would occur in the healthcare arena.
 
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Thanks. I'm sort of annoyed that my advice got buried in a barrage of personal attacks and insults. I've had a few MD friends frustrated by precepting "online" NP students. One of them literally pulled her hair out at the end of every day this particularly cocky student was there. (Which, btw, was his FP preceptorship, that consisted of 6 weeks of 3-1/2 days/week.) :eek: I told her she should just refuse to take any more students from that program. To my knowledge she has not, although she continues to precept students from well-known reputable PA & NP programs locally (the brick-and-mortar type).
Online education is, some say, the wave of the future. I think there are SOME courses that can be taught this way (humanities in particular), and with the right structure (mandatory chat time, perhaps some use of webcam technology like my sister has in her online PhD nursing courses which basically means that they get a quasi-classroom experience from their own home on a regularly scheduled time) but I don't think online education will ever supplant traditional higher ed.
L.

This is why I do not teach any online classes; I do not agree with the structure, so I do not want to support it any way.
 
This is just something you need to deal with. For the record, I don't think I'm an expert on anything, I consider myself a "generalist." I get bored easily and tend to learn quickly so I moved on to other areas frequently. Actually, I've miscounted. I've been to 12 schools which is an ungodly pain whenever I have to request transcripts!

Now, let me go have a few beers with the rioting students in Greece and then head to sunny Bangkok to see what's happening. Everyone have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Didn't they just finish having riots in Thailand? What's the matter, social unrest in one country wasn't enough for you? :laugh:
 
Thanks. I'm sort of annoyed that my advice got buried in a barrage of personal attacks and insults. I've had a few MD friends frustrated by precepting "online" NP students. One of them literally pulled her hair out at the end of every day this particularly cocky student was there. (Which, btw, was his FP preceptorship, that consisted of 6 weeks of 3-1/2 days/week.) :eek: I told her she should just refuse to take any more students from that program. To my knowledge she has not, although she continues to precept students from well-known reputable PA & NP programs locally (the brick-and-mortar type).
Online education is, some say, the wave of the future. I think there are SOME courses that can be taught this way (humanities in particular), and with the right structure (mandatory chat time, perhaps some use of webcam technology like my sister has in her online PhD nursing courses which basically means that they get a quasi-classroom experience from their own home on a regularly scheduled time) but I don't think online education will ever supplant traditional higher ed.
L.

Hence, why MD/DO, PA, and CRNA degrees are not online. With the current technology, you can't replace the classroom with online instruction. Furthermore, for online programs to succeed the accrediting body needs to establish high standards for quality and to have mechanisms to monitor. These are things you don't have in online DNP/NP programs.

When I am in a position to hire NP/PA's, I will be asking the following question:

How much of your training was online?
 
Hence, why MD/DO, PA, and CRNA degrees are not online. With the current technology, you can't replace the classroom with online instruction. Furthermore, for online programs to succeed the accrediting body needs to establish high standards for quality and to have mechanisms to monitor. These are things you don't have in online DNP/NP programs.

When I am in a position to hire NP/PA's, I will be asking the following question:

How much of your training was online?

Don't flatter yourself. Doctors with attitudes like yours tend to have reputations that precede themselves. I doubt you'll have scores of people banging down the door looking to work for you.

Besides, you're not hiring NPs anyway, so isn't this posturing moot?
 
Reality is that DNP's are nurses, trained in nursing, and will never be physicians/medical doctors. The two simply do not equal each other, and never will.

The academic ability and clinical time spent as the actual decision maker by the physician is light-years ahead of any long-coat wearing DNP.

To suggest otherwise is foolish. Unfortunately, the nursing boards do. The AMA should defend itself like the ABA does with lawyers: You get on our turf, you get sued into oblivion. It's that simple. We need to do this in order to protect patients from the lunacy of having nurses trying to do a physicians job. I can't put on a hardhat, pick up a pen, and declare myself a certified mechanical engineer, it's illegal and dangerous for anyone near me. Likewise, nurses simply do not have the skills nor training in the disciplines necessary to practice medicine, and no long white coat or tater-tot degree stamped by Mundinger will change that.

At the end of the day, patients know that. If they don't, shame on the AMA. We should be crushing this in the courts behind the scenes while marketing to the public the truth against this domestic insurgency on healthcare dollars.
 
I almost hate to jump into this wonderful discussion, but why not? I'm personally not sure that there's much merit in the DNP debate as far as clinical practice goes. For the DNP community to achieve any new practice rights each state would have to grant this which I can't image would happen based on the lack of additional clinical training (but hey I guess anything can happen). Additionally, they would have to then be granted priviledges by each hospital if they so desired them. The physicians who oversee priviledges need simply to deny the request. There's also the option for each physician or group to simply not hire them. It seems to me in looking around SDN & nursing forums that the DNP movement isn't really a concensus, but a push from higher ups in certain groups moving the agendas of a few. That's sad if its true because it seems like it has potential to harm the image of the nurse practitioner community amongst medical collegeues (if not potentially further reaching). Finally, as for DNPs referring to themselves as "doctor" I personally don't care what they call themselves in the academia setting; however, I think that in the clinical setting "doctor" is too commonly associated with "physician" for it to be used, but I think that the only people who can do anything about this would be those who oversee the DNPs at hospitals (i.e..advising them they must state their level of training). Ultimately if a DNP wants to portray themselves as a doctor (physician) they will do so and at somepoint someone will sue over the issue and then we'll see what happens. To be fair I know a PA who has "ER Doc" on his license plate and I'm sure there are more like him even though I'm certain that's not the majority of PAs.

Just my .02
 
Besides, you're not hiring NPs anyway, so isn't this posturing moot?

You never know. I could get desperate because I can't find a PA to hire. Then, I'll have to find a dime-a-dozen, can't-find-a-NP-job-so-goes-back-to-being-RN, Cracker Jack DNP. I have to make sure I remember what to ask.

How much of your training was online?
 
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You never know. I could get desperate because I can't find a PA to hire. Then, I'll have to find a dime-a-dozen, can't-find-a-NP-job-so-goes-back-to-being-RN, Cracker Jack DNP. I have to make sure I remember what to ask.

How much of your training was online?

The PAs will probably be on to your winning personality as well; that's why you'll have a dearth of applicants.

I thought you were going to be the "standard bearer" for your up-and-coming generation of physicians. Sounds like you're willing to sell out, after all. Some value system, there.
 
I thought you were going to be the "standard bearer" for your up-and-coming generation of physicians. Sounds like you're willing to sell out, after all. Some value system, there.

I will most definitely not compromise my principles. If I ever hire a DNP -- and that's a big if, I'll give that person the same job for the same pay I would have given a PA. See, I'm a fair and compassionate person. :D

Hmmm...do you suppose it messes with DNP's heads to know that they will be going to school for 4 years to do the same job at the same pay that they currently get for 2 years of schooling? How will DNP's feel knowing that they're doing the same job for the same pay as PA's, even though they have a "doctorate"? I know it would mess with my head. :nod:
 
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I will most definitely not compromise my principles. If I ever hire a DNP -- and that's a big if, I'll give that person the same job for the same pay I would have given a PA. See, I'm a fair and compassionate person. :D

Hmmm...do you suppose it messes with DNP's heads to know that they will be going to school for 4 years to do the same job at the same pay that they currently get for 2 years of schooling? How will DNP's feel knowing that they're doing the same job for the same pay as PA's, even though they have a "doctorate"? I know it would mess with my head. :nod:

I neither know nor care what DNPs think. To me it's a foolish endeavor, and one I wouldn't undertake. My guess is that they don't give it much thought; if they've gone down that track, my feeling is they've already been indoctrinated and are impervious to reason. (To be fair, they do have the option of independent practice, which PAs do not, though I have yet to see any independent NPs in my area.)
 
With the current technology, you can't replace the classroom with online instruction.
Just because you can't....doesn't mean people won't try to, all in the name of a buck and/or to cut corners.

Furthermore, for online programs to succeed the accrediting body needs to establish high standards for quality and to have mechanisms to monitor.

If only it were that easy......
 
I neither know nor care what DNPs think. To me it's a foolish endeavor, and one I wouldn't undertake. My guess is that they don't give it much thought; if they've gone down that track, my feeling is they've already been indoctrinated and are impervious to reason. (To be fair, they do have the option of independent practice, which PAs do not, though I have yet to see any independent NPs in my area.)

Thats not completely true. NPs are only "independent" in 23 out of the 50 states; otherwise they need physician oversight. And we PAs do need (and want) physician supervision, but we can still open our own practice in many states as long as the physician oversight requirement is met. There are lots of PAs in rural areas where the nearest MD/DO supervision is 200 miles away.
 
and in 12 or 13 of those 23 states if they want to rx they still need a collaborating md...
 
Unfortunately I am not able to access the entire article so I am unable to determine it's applicability in this discussion.
 
I almost hate to jump into this wonderful discussion, but why not? I'm personally not sure that there's much merit in the DNP debate as far as clinical practice goes. For the DNP community to achieve any new practice rights each state would have to grant this which I can't image would happen based on the lack of additional clinical training (but hey I guess anything can happen). Additionally, they would have to then be granted priviledges by each hospital if they so desired them. The physicians who oversee priviledges need simply to deny the request. There's also the option for each physician or group to simply not hire them. It seems to me in looking around SDN & nursing forums that the DNP movement isn't really a concensus, but a push from higher ups in certain groups moving the agendas of a few. That's sad if its true because it seems like it has potential to harm the image of the nurse practitioner community amongst medical collegeues (if not potentially further reaching). Finally, as for DNPs referring to themselves as "doctor" I personally don't care what they call themselves in the academia setting; however, I think that in the clinical setting "doctor" is too commonly associated with "physician" for it to be used, but I think that the only people who can do anything about this would be those who oversee the DNPs at hospitals (i.e..advising them they must state their level of training). Ultimately if a DNP wants to portray themselves as a doctor (physician) they will do so and at somepoint someone will sue over the issue and then we'll see what happens. To be fair I know a PA who has "ER Doc" on his license plate and I'm sure there are more like him even though I'm certain that's not the majority of PAs.

Just my .02

That guy needs a swift kick to the behind. Unless he's driving his Daddy's car or something...sounds like the admissions weed out process didn't do that good of a job...
 
and in 12 or 13 of those 23 states if they want to rx they still need a collaborating md...

And in 23 of those 23 states, NP's need to work with physicians if they want 100% reimbursement from Medicare. Furthermore, private insurance companies may not reimburse NP's at all if they don't work with physicians.
 
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That guy needs a swift kick to the behind. Unless he's driving his Daddy's car or something...sounds like the admissions weed out process didn't do that good of a job...

Haha....pretty sure it's his car, but who knows. He's a royal *** anyhow so it's to be expected. If he were an MD/DO the plates would probably read GOD. I know way more PAs who are not like him.
 
Thats not completely true. NPs are only "independent" in 23 out of the 50 states; otherwise they need physician oversight. And we PAs do need (and want) physician supervision, but we can still open our own practice in many states as long as the physician oversight requirement is met. There are lots of PAs in rural areas where the nearest MD/DO supervision is 200 miles away.

OK, so in some states NPs have the option of independent practice, whereas no PAs have that option at this time. They state they need and want physician oversight, but it sounds like doublespeak when they then boast about the nearest physician supervisor being 200 miles away.
 
Can I just say how funny it is that this thread started out with the example of nurses knowing why you don't give dopamine to someone with low BP and tachycardia but first year residents not? I'm pretty sure it's almost literally impossible to pass the Steps without knowing that and it's exactly the sort of pathophys that we learn far more in depth than nurses.

Now if the example had been "The resident tried to piggyback blood onto lactated ringer's" or something maybe it'd be plausible. But it's a lot easier to pick up practical day-to-day stuff while on the floor than to learn the academic reasoning behind things while on the floor.
 
OK, so in some states NPs have the option of independent practice, whereas no PAs have that option at this time. They state they need and want physician oversight, but it sounds like doublespeak when they then boast about the nearest physician supervisor being 200 miles away.


Now your are just being ornery for no good reason. Its not boasting, its just stating the fact. Supervision can be just as efficient by telephone consult.
 
Now your are just being ornery for no good reason. Its not boasting, its just stating the fact. Supervision can be just as efficient by telephone consult.

No, you decided to make an issue over the "independent practice" statement, so I decided to call you on your hypocritical stand on "we want supervision/yeah, we can practice while our supervisors are hundreds of miles away!"
 
No, you decided to make an issue over the "independent practice" statement, so I decided to call you on your hypocritical stand on "we want supervision/yeah, we can practice while our supervisors are hundreds of miles away!"

Obviously civil discourse isn't possible. Have a happy holiday and back to lurking.
 
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Well actually, no. Telephone consultation is certainly a vital part of a supervised practice, but it is just as important in an independent practice. No physician never doesn't need a specialist or colleague to bounce cases off of.

The key element of supervision, at least in my young-ish mind, is chart review of the cases you didn't call anyone about. It's the cases where we didn't know what we didn't know that eventually burn us.

That's why most supervision agreements involve it.

Absolutely. Chart reviews are an important part of insuring quality, along with the delegation of the scope of practice.
 
Well actually, no. Telephone consultation is certainly a vital part of a supervised practice, but it is just as important in an independent practice. No physician never doesn't need a specialist or colleague to bounce cases off of.

It is important to differentiate "consultation" vs. "supervision". This recently came up on a listserv, so I thought I'd post the link: http://clinicallawyer.com/?p=83

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Supervision vs. Consultation: what you need to know

July 3, 2007 on 6:36 pm | In Legal Basics, Practice Management | The following article was authored by myself and A. Steven Frankel, Ph.D., J.D. It appeared in a slightly shorter format in the July/August 2007 issue of The California Psychologist, the newsletter of the California Psychological Association.

In this article we will discuss an oft-overlooked topic: understanding the difference between supervision and consultation.
The processes of clinical supervision and consultation are integral parts of training, to which clinicians return repeatedly throughout their careers. The historical dedication to consultation and supervision derives from a number of factors, including a profession-wide endorsement of consultation, continuing training and an awareness of ethics. Ongoing consultation with colleagues is important for all clinicians. It allows clinicians to access and maintain the standard of care and to resolve challenges to treatment. Because psychotherapy is most often a private matter, confidentiality places certain restrictions on the extent to which clinicians can openly consult with each other. For obvious reasons, clinicians do not publicly post details of a treatment relationship to solicit feedback. Rather, they tend to fall back on the model under which they were initially trained.

Supervision:
The predominant training model for clinicians is that of supervision, whereby a student discusses cases on an in-depth basis with a supervisor. The supervisor becomes acquainted with all of the critical information about the case, instructs the student on how to conduct the intervention and carefully monitors the progress of the patient/client and student. In this sort of relationship it is vitally important that the supervisor know as much as possible about the case because the supervisor is, by extension, the one providing the treatment. As a result, supervisors may be liable for acts or omissions on the part of their supervisees under a number of different legal theories (Saccuzzo, 2002).

Consultation, as contrasted with supervision:
Consultation, by comparison, is a different arrangement and involves a different set of relationships. (Note the word "relationships"; we'll return to it later.) For most clinicians, consultation involves approaching a colleague to discuss the case and receiving feedback. The amount of detail that is shared varies, and after discussing the case the colleague with whom the original clinician has consulted (the "consultant") offers an opinion and/or suggestions.

Many clinicians perceive consultation to be a "lite" model of supervision. There is some truth in this observation, but only insofar as it involves two people discussing a case. The real difference between supervision and consultation is more fundamental and has to do with relationships. As noted above, a supervisor is ultimately responsible for the quality of care, and because of this the supervisor must know all of the available pertinent information to make informed decisions. An example of a supervision arrangement is where a supervisor watches videotapes of a student's therapy session, which enables the supervisor to provide feedback about the student's technique and collect data for treatment planning. Patients/clients are aware that the student is under supervision and that a supervisor is directing the treatment.

In contrast, consultation involves a professional who is responsible for providing treatment and asks a colleague for feedback. In a consultation, the consultant knows only the information provided by the treating clinician. This lack of access to information often results in less accurate suggestions, but also affords the consultant a measure of flexibility and creativity that might otherwise be absent if the consultant was responsible for the treatment. Indeed, a consultant knows that he or she does not have all of the facts and implicitly relies on the treating clinician's good-faith judgment in incorporating the suggestions into the larger picture. Perhaps the "purest" form of consulting is the "case method" of instruction, whereby an instructor at a workshop is asked about a case and responds within the context of the training session. Under these circumstances the instructor is providing instruction, and it should be noted that this dynamic is not synonymous with treatment. That is, historically, courts have been unwilling to equate educational instruction with treatment. (Ranier v. Grossman, 31 Cal. App. 3d 539 (1973)).

Supervision vs. consultation: as a practical matter…
In practice, however, the distinction between supervision and consultation is not entirely clear. Clinicians seek consultation in a number of contexts. The forms of consultation vary, ranging from informal conversations at continuing education courses to repeated and in-depth discussions about the same case. At times, formal supervision can look like consultation. This is particularly true toward the end of clinical training, when supervisors often know less about the details of the interaction between student and patient/client. In these situations, the supervisor increasingly relies on the clinical judgment of the student. Indeed, toward the end of training, the interactions between supervisor and student increasingly resemble the consultations that the trainee will have with colleagues once training is over.

As we shall see, these distinctions are not merely academic. Like most professionals, clinicians practice in a larger socio-cultural environment that occasionally involves legal action. Supervisors and consultants alike occasionally face questions about the nature of their relationship with a patient/client.

Thus, despite similarities in appearance, supervision and consultation remain distinct in the legal relationships that are established. Most notably, though instructional consultations may be detailed and repeated, a consultant does not have a treatment relationship with the patient/client. Conversely, though supervision may be informal, the supervisor retains a treatment relationship with the patient/client.

It may come as a surprise, but for many legal actions (especially negligence) the law is almost as concerned with relationships as are clinicians. Under most circumstances the law does not impose a duty between individuals, but the psychotherapist-patient relationship is one situation where a special legal relationship exists.

The existence of a "special relationship" is legal shorthand for the existence of a duty of care. The common law did not recognize a duty to act or to protect others from the actions of a third party. However, some relationships have since been recognized by the law as "special relationships, and it is through these relationships that the law imposes a duty to act or to protect third parties.

The importance of being clear:
Knowing whether a relationship is supervisory or consultative is important because, as noted above, supervisors have a treatment relationship with the patient/client and are responsible for the course of treatment. Without this special relationship, there is no duty to control the activities of another in an effort to prevent harm. This means that, not only does a consultant lack a duty to prevent harm, but the consultant also does not have a legal obligation to seek additional information to make her/his advice accurate. The difference between supervisor and consultant can be the difference between defendant and non-party, and because of this the stakes can be very high.

Although the practical distinctions between supervisor and consultant can be fuzzy, courts are nevertheless charged with the responsibility to decide. Courts that have examined this question have done so in the context of the physician-patient relationship, which is similar in many respects to the psychotherapist-patient relationship. There are few published California cases that speak precisely to this question, but the few that do provide some clues about how to approach this topic. These cases have held that the decision to hold a defendant accountable to a third person, with whom there is no existing formal relationship, is a matter of public policy and involves balancing various factors. The factors that would militate for or against liability include (1) the extent to which the activities were intended to affect the third party; (2) the foreseeability of harm to the third party; (3) the certainty that the actions caused the third party's injury; (4) the closeness of the connection between the actions and the injury to the third party; (5) the moral blameworthiness of the conduct; (6) the policy of preventing future harm; and (7) the social utility of the activity that caused the harm.

As evidenced by this lengthy list of factors, a determination of the status of a relationship is dependent on the facts of each individual case. There are no clear guidelines. However, clinicians can take comfort in the fact that reviewing courts have consistently expressed a reluctance to disrupt the exchange of information between professionals. Judges recognize that the case method of instruction is highly effective, widely used and of great social benefit. Because of this, courts have expressed an unwillingness to interfere in an educational transaction that has proven to be effective and is widely-used.

Unfortunately, this also has implications for practitioners who become highly involved in their colleagues' cases. Consultants may establish a de facto relationship with a patient/client under a number of circumstances, such as if they become actively involved in recommending courses of action that are likely to be harmful. Consultants may also be held responsible if they are engaged in a consultation where they know that it is likely that the treating clinician will accept their suggestions wholesale, as a directive, and without a critical examination of the larger treatment picture. In other words, clinicians cannot use the label of "consultant" to act irresponsibly.

Note that this likely does not require clinicians, consultants, and supervisors to dramatically change their behaviors and practices. In most situations a check-up of professional roles is all that is required; most clinicians are trained to observe professional boundaries and already do so. In other circumstances, consultants might consider explicitly clarifying their roles and the limitations of their advice.

And of course, it is always a good idea to talk with an attorney for legal advice about a specific situation. As discussed above, the application of these factors is situation-specific and clinicians may want to confer with legal counsel if they have concerns about specific practices.

We hope that this article provides some useful background information with which clinicians can monitor their already-existing professional relationships. It is our view that the standard of care is raised when clinicians have a more detailed understanding of the legal and ethical environment in which they practice. This ultimately provides better services to the public, which is a goal that we all share.

References:
Ranier v. Grossman, 31 Cal. App. 3d 539 (1973).
Saccuzzo, D. (2002). Liability for Failure to Supervise Adequately: Let the Master Beware. Retrieved March 15, 2007, from; http://www.e-psychologist.org/index.iml?mdl=exam/show_article.mdl&Material_ID=9.
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No, you decided to make an issue over the "independent practice" statement, so I decided to call you on your hypocritical stand on "we want supervision/yeah, we can practice while our supervisors are hundreds of miles away!"
Amen brother/sister? Whatever......
 
Rotational hours do not make a good practitioner. Experience, judjement, critical thinking make the practitioner. So I can assume that most of you out there bashing NP's and the new DNP are afraid that they will take your jobs. Well that may not be a bad thing to think. Do the research, patient satifaction is higher for NP's than for MD's in any Press Ganey report. I don't know what hospital you work for, but the hospital goes by these reports with respect to hiring/firing etc.

And how many of your bashing the NP's would like to work in the rural areas, where low income, low socioeconomic, and medicaid abounds. You can only thank yourselves for the NP surge an now the DNP surge, as it is due to the lack of practitoners in these areas that has led to this insurgence.

Also, med students are the only ones that I know that have to read a book entitled "How to Talk to Your Patients" Nurses do this every day. Unlike medical students who are fresh out of high school when enrolling, many NP's and certainly those obtaining DNP's have been practicing for on average 10 years.

I taught at a well known nursing school in the East Coast. When my nursing students were on a medical floor studying for patho finals, a medical student looked at the notes and stated "we don't even have to know that" So start figuring it out for yourselves.........................
 
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