DNP or Resident

[Whittier2006]

Typical post... The classic "All men are created equal and therefore the MD and the DNP should be equal." followed by the iconic anecdotal conclusion "I saw some doctors that didn't do what I want them to do and therefore I want more options cause customer service is more important than competency."

Please do come to my ward and tell the 25 year practicing nurses that when I order a consult to take care of an issue with the patient I'm not doing it to torture them. A couple even cursed at me on the ward, and later acted like it never happened. Why do I even bother telling you this really... ? I'm better off going to work early.

Quite frankly, this post is full of non-sense. I never said DNP=MD, not once. Thank you. The second paragraph...what? What on earth are you even talking about? Maybe you should go to work early.

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[Whittier2006]

Well duh - there's an absolutely BRILLIANT post.

It's absolutely amazing to me how rude people are on this website. You need to get off your high horse and realize that you are no better than anyone else. Whether you are a nurse, a doctor, a podiatrist, whatever...

 

[Whittier2006]

Here is the link: http://www.moveon.org/


BTW you obviously haven't seen the entry level DNP programs.

Whats with the link? My little signiture thingy is from a song...

 

[BlurredFocus]

When it comes to treating medical conditions, I am far superior to a nurse or DNP. I have longer training, more supervised clinical hours, and am licensed in a broader scope of practice.

I'd call that better. Wouldn't you?

And your training is clinically relevant, unlike the DNP programs I have seen. At this rate, people with MBAs and MPHs are gonna be treating patients too...

 

[Taurus]

It's absolutely amazing to me how rude people are on this website. You need to get off your high horse and realize that you are no better than anyone else. Whether you are a nurse, a doctor, a podiatrist, whatever...

Before trying to make physicans feel bad for not seeing DNP's as equals, maybe you should spend some more time on this board and understand what they're saying. It is ridiculous to even compare DNP's with physicians especially when DNP's are getting their degrees online and have a paltry 700 hours of clinical training. It's a danger to public safety and erodes the public trust in health providers.

 

[nebrfan]

It's absolutely amazing to me how rude people are on this website. You need to get off your high horse and realize that you are no better than anyone else. Whether you are a nurse, a doctor, a podiatrist, whatever...

It is not a matter of ego or being on a 'high horse' - it is a matter of patient safety and transparency. DNPs have far less didactic education and supervised clinical exposure than physicians. Period. Until it is unequivocally demonstrated through multiple well-designed studies that outcomes are equal to that of physicians it would be unethical and unsafe to allow them independent practice. A physician may not be any better/worse of a person than a nurse, etc. - but in terms of treating medical illnesses - physicians are better.

Additionally, by introducing themselves as "Doctor" they mask these very real and very important differences between DNPs and Physicians and mislead the public. You may be OK with an experienced nurse proving care for you and your family - but many others demand being treated by someone who has received the most education.

Also....Many people on this forum are devoting significant amounts of time and energy to promote patient health and safety. They are not trying to be "rude" when confronting threats to those patients - just vigilant. I suggest growing a thicker-skin before engaging in a serious policy debate that could greatly affect the health and well-being of others.

 

[chimichanga]

When it comes to treating medical conditions, I am far superior to a nurse or DNP. I have longer training, more supervised clinical hours, and am licensed in a broader scope of practice.

I'd call that better. Wouldn't you?

Don't think that's what he was talking about, but why pass up a chance to self promote...

 

[chimichanga]

Except that in terms of the scope of practice they are fighting for, the nurse / DNP won't know what he or she is doing...

In terms of nursing - yes I am sure that person is a wonderful nurse.

In terms of being an independent medical practitioner equal to that of a doctor - no way.

I reread the post that you quoted...He didn't equate the two...

Too much "sky is falling" knee jerk posting when someone wants to open a DNP discussion...

We all know that docs are waaaay more educated than advanced practice nurses, no matter how many years one may have been a nurse...

This doesn't make them better people.
It just makes them better at diagnosing and treating patients.

 

[chimichanga]

I don't disagree with that statement Tired, all I was saying was this guy just might seem to have a preference for a DNP (have never even met one myself) over an FP doc...He wasn't equating them.

Your post came off as a little holier than though (your highness)

 

[chimichanga]

Personally I think it needs to be thought of the other way around. The burden of proof should be on DNP programs to show that the DNP is equivalent to being a MD/DO in terms of clinical training, rather than saying "you need to work with a bunch of bad DNPs before you can say their not well trained."

Agreed (somewhat). They're not near as "well trained" as a doc, and never will be. Any nurse claiming this is spewing crap.

But the burden of proof does need to be on them to "prove" that they're better trained than an FNP, which won't happen either, as there is no more clinical training with this "advanced" degree.

 

[fab4fan]

Agreed (somewhat). They're not near as "well trained" as a doc, and never will be. Any nurse claiming this is spewing crap.

But the burden of proof does need to be on them to "prove" that they're better trained than an FNP, which won't happen either, as there is no more clinical training with this "advanced" degree.

Which brings us back to why the "D" is "needed." If it doesn't really augment clinical knowledge or skills, then...<crickets>

 

[chimichanga]

It's the elephant in the room.

Everyone knows the answer.

But the people who say it are elitist bastards.

actually, those who believe that the "d" makes a "d"ifference are elitist, uninformed __________ (insert your own word here)

 

[fab4fan]

It's the elephant in the room.

Everyone knows the answer.

But the people who say it are elitist bastards.

Hey! Is that what I am? Nobody has ever called me that before! Holy cow, I have arrived!

 

[RDlv]

Just to throw my flame on the fire:

I'm taking a grad-level nursing course. It is taught by a DNP. No Phd, just BSN-MSN-DNP and the rest of the alphabet soup.

He introduces himself as Dr. XXX.

Now, this is in the academic environment. This is an earned degree, recognised by my department. But... really?

I have (too) many years as a college student under my belt. I have always called my Phd instructors by "Dr." or "professor." Non-Phd's as "Professor", or "Mr./Ms.", until given permission to use first names. I have never had a non-Phd that didn't ask to be called by their first name.

I see it as analagous to the "MD in clinical environment is the only one called Dr." argument. In the academic environment, the "Dr." is the PhD. They earned it. Now it is equivalent to a 2-year online degree? Really?

Not a big bee in my bonnet. You're teaching the course, you want to be called Dr., okay, whatever, no problem.

But...really?

 

[zxc1234]

this argument is getting so stupid. If a DNP is equal to a MD, then make the DNP program equivalent to medical school not a MBA program. How does learning how to run a practice help with patient care? It does nothing to help. It is common sense. Why argue with the MD students here about DNPs' competencies and you are not even a DNP yet? You don't know how much scope of practice is expanded by the program. It may not be expanded and then you will blindly pay all that damn money for nothing.

 

[Taurus]

Just to throw my flame on the fire:

I'm taking a grad-level nursing course. It is taught by a DNP. No Phd, just BSN-MSN-DNP and the rest of the alphabet soup.

He introduces himself as Dr. XXX.

Now, this is in the academic environment. This is an earned degree, recognised by my department. But... really?

I have (too) many years as a college student under my belt. I have always called my Phd instructors by "Dr." or "professor." Non-Phd's as "Professor", or "Mr./Ms.", until given permission to use first names. I have never had a non-Phd that didn't ask to be called by their first name.

I see it as analagous to the "MD in clinical environment is the only one called Dr." argument. In the academic environment, the "Dr." is the PhD. They earned it. Now it is equivalent to a 2-year online degree? Really?

Not a big bee in my bonnet. You're teaching the course, you want to be called Dr., okay, whatever, no problem.

But...really?

I think it is quite insulting and degrading to PhD nurses that someone who got their DNP online can introduce themselves as "Dr."

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think it is quite insulting and degrading to PhD nurses that someone who got their DNP online can introduce themselves as "Dr."

This is one of my frustrations. I am not against the DNP if it actually meets the rigors and expectations that go along with doctoral training, though stringing together some online classes that are barely related and are not even remotely clinical....that doesn't pass the smell test. If a university put together a residentially based program that focuses on integrating advanced clinical training with classes that reflect a greater depth of applied theory, then I'd be much more apt to give the DNP a chance.

 

[Farmer Jane]

I'm also taking a course taught by a DNP, and she goes by "Dr. ------."

I'm not saying a word.

 

[BlurredFocus]

In order for the DNP to gain respect as independent practitioners equivalent to doctors, everyone is saying we need to make the curriculum match up with medical school. But then why not just go to medical school??

 

[psychbender]

In order for the DNP to gain respect as independent practitioners equivalent to doctors, everyone is saying we need to make the curriculum match up with medical school. But then why not just go to medical school??

Now there's a novel idea.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

In order for the DNP to gain respect as independent practitioners equivalent to doctors, everyone is saying we need to make the curriculum match up with medical school. But then why not just go to medical school??

If it were really meant to be the highest terminating degree in nursing and provide advanced clinical training to advanced level nurses, I'd think developing a curriculum within the nursing framework would make the most sense. If programs dedicated themselves to meet real standards in advanced clinical training and provided advanced nursing professionals applicable training to inform their practice, I'd be more behind the training.

If the DNP is meant to expand the scope of advanced level nursing and to produce independent practitioners that are fully autonomous....I'd be afraid of the liability and short-comings of any of the curriculums I've seen posted thus far. How does stringing together some loosely related online classes prepare an advanced nursing professional for independent practice?

Can of worms <---now opened.

 

[Taurus]

In order for the DNP to gain respect as independent practitioners equivalent to doctors, everyone is saying we need to make the curriculum match up with medical school. But then why not just go to medical school??

You have too much common sense to go to nursing school. They want people who tow the party line and not question, kinda like Bush and the Republican party. Where did that lead us? On the cusp of another Great Depression.

 

[RDlv]

As much as I hate to douse my own troll post, I have discovered that the dnp is eligible for tenure in my school of nursing. Thus, a dnp can become a full professor. As such, I would be hypocritical not to extend the same level of professional/academic coutesy to a dnp as I would a phd.

While I hold my own opinions about the dnp both as a academic and a professional degree, I must conclude that it is appropriate to refer to a dnp as "dr." in my academic setting.

 

[184013]

RDlv,
I don't think anyone in this thread has disputed the DNP being addressed as Dr. in the academia setting, the dispute is those saying DNP's should or should not be addressed as Dr. in the realm of healthcare...

 

[RDlv]

RDlv,
I don't think anyone in this thread has disputed the DNP being addressed as Dr. in the academia setting, the dispute is those saying DNP's should or should not be addressed as Dr. in the realm of healthcare...

Somone did dispute it...*me*. That's why I posted the "retraction".

 

[JordanMaria]

I just got done with the sixth ICU month of my residency and I have enjoyed immensely working with the nurses in our ICU, many of whom knew me as an intern and can take tremendous satisfaction that they "raised me right." With that being said, we have different jobs and we try not to step on each other's toes. But the nurses do not think they are better than residents because they corrected me (gently) on giving dopamine when I was an intern just like I don't think I am better than the nurses because I can read a plain film of the chest. That's rookie stuff anyway. We have different jobs, you see. Mine requires a medical degree and residency which is why, on our first day as interns, we don't know that much...that is, we are still in training.

Not a hard concept to understand. It's pretty easy to make fun of a brand-new intern. Hell, even the janitors probably do it. But it's a little disingenuous to suggest that doctors don't know what they are doing because at one time, an experienced ICU nurse had to give them some much-needed guidance.

You sound bitter.

Wow, finally an intelligent comment on the whole doctor vs. everyone-else-in-the-healthcare-world debate. Seriously, nursing and medicine are different fields. That's why one is called nursing and one is called medicine. They are not the same, they are not comparable, and they are not in competition. Both have completely different jobs and both are necessary for patients to get care.

PAs and NPs are also from different fields, one learns an abbreviated "medical" model (a natural sciences focused undergrad degree + two years worth of medical study) and the other a very in depth "nursing" model (four years for a bachelor's in nursing and two more years for the NP degree). Notice both NPs and PAs end up with six years of schooling and both also commonly need extensive experience. They are equal but different. As far as what they should be allowed to do, I believe PAs and NPs can safely provide basic care under the supervision of a physician.

 

[184013]

Notice both NPs and PAs end up with six years of schooling and both also commonly need extensive experience. They are equal but different.

Or they can enter a direct entry DNP program which does not require any healthcare experience or pre-nursing experience and graduate in under 3.5 years.... PA schools now are accepting students with zero to minimal health care experience - and graduate in 2 years...

 

[JordanMaria]

You have too much common sense to go to nursing school. They want people who tow the party line and not question, kinda like Bush and the Republican party. Where did that lead us? On the cusp of another Great Depression.

LOL, this is one of the most bizaare things I've read in a while. Caught me totally off gaurd.

You're right, all of this country's problems are totally the fault of nurses...

I apologize, I'm new here so I don't know everyone but, is this person mentally ill?

 

[JordanMaria]

Or they can enter a direct entry DNP program which does not require any healthcare experience or pre-nursing experience and graduate in under 3.5 years.... PA schools now are accepting students with zero to minimal health care experience - and graduate in 2 years...

I knew someone would find some exception to my description of NP/PA training, which was why I said "commonly".

Either way, I'm not saying they are equal to physicians, I simply mean to say they are relatively equal to each other, although completely different. I do not believe they should be allowed to practice independently. They should practice only under a licensed physician. I also believe their level of preparation should be more standardized. Physicians all receive standardized training and so really should any licensed health care worker.

As for the DNP, what's wrong with a nurse practitioner receiving education beyond his or her master's degree? I do see the problem with anyone thinking that makes them equal to physicians. That doesn't mean DNP programs should be discouraged, their role and the fact that they are not physicians just needs to be clarified.

 

[psychbender]

LOL, this is one of the most bizaare things I've read in a while. Caught me totally off gaurd.

You're right, all of this country's problems are totally the fault of nurses...

I apologize, I'm new here so I don't know everyone but, is this person mentally ill?

No, he's trying to draw a comparison between GWB and his neo-Cons leading the country towards another Great Depression, and the current nursing leaders (Mundinger, etc) leading the nursing world toward disaster by trying to take over the medical world via the DNP. Not one of his greatest comparisons, but Taurus is generally alright.

 

[psychbender]

As for the DNP, what's wrong with a nurse practitioner receiving education beyond his or her master's degree? I do see the problem with anyone thinking that makes them equal to physicians. That doesn't mean DNP programs should be discouraged, their role and the fact that they are not physicians just needs to be clarified.

The issue isn't with NPs receiving education beyond the master's level, it's that the education that is provided by the DNP programs does not add anything medically, yet is supposed to allow the DNP to practice independantly. From what I've seen posted on SDN, and from my albeit limited research elsewhere on the web, the DNP curriculum seems to just add a few biostatistics courses, some practice management courses, and more nursing theory fluff courses.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

As much as I hate to douse my own troll post, I have discovered that the dnp is eligible for tenure in my school of nursing. Thus, a dnp can become a full professor. As such, I would be hypocritical not to extend the same level of professional/academic coutesy to a dnp as I would a phd.

Many places are lowering the standards to become tenured prof. They have to bend over backwards to keep people in academics these days. No one wants to teach anymore with high student debt and more money to be made in the private sector.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

the fact that they are not physicians just needs to be clarified.

(or equal to in anyway)

That's right.

 

[core0]

Or they can enter a direct entry DNP program which does not require any healthcare experience or pre-nursing experience and graduate in under 3.5 years.... PA schools now are accepting students with zero to minimal health care experience - and graduate in 2 years...

Look at the difference between the clinical and didactic hours between DNP and PA programs. They are substantially different. Also the PA programs are set up for dependent practice with the supervision of a physician. Not independent practice.

The other issue is that the PA programs that do not require medical experience are statistically longer on average than those that do require medical experience. The average amount of medical experience for applicants is over three years and the average for PA matriculants is more than 700 hours greater than non-matriculants. This suggests that even among those programs that do not require health care experience it is highly valued.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[bradt9881]

I knew someone would find some exception to my description of NP/PA training, which was why I said "commonly".

Either way, I'm not saying they are equal to physicians, I simply mean to say they are relatively equal to each other, although completely different. I do not believe they should be allowed to practice independently. They should practice only under a licensed physician. I also believe their level of preparation should be more standardized. Physicians all receive standardized training and so really should any licensed health care worker.

As for the DNP, what's wrong with a nurse practitioner receiving education beyond his or her master's degree? I do see the problem with anyone thinking that makes them equal to physicians. That doesn't mean DNP programs should be discouraged, their role and the fact that they are not physicians just needs to be clarified.

In 23 states, NPs are not required to be supervised by a physician. PAs are required to do so, although in some states that can be as cursory as a 6 month meeting at the bar to discuss "quality improvement". Training at NP programs is also not standardized to a core competency based curriculum and supervised by one central authority unlike PAs. NPs are required to hold both a RN license and NP certification and adhere to the nurse practice act, PAs scope of practice is delegated to them by their supervising physician. NPs and PAs may see the same patients, but they are very different.

Nothing is wrong with advanced education, but everything is wrong with requiring all NPs to receive a DNP, yet not have a clear standard over what that education is to encompass. Is it going to be an MPA/MBA for nurses, advance clinical training, or MPH training??? You can look at 10 different DNP programs and see 10 different curriculums, and some of those 90% on line.....

I do find it somewhat funny that Dr. Stead started the PA program at Duke with ex-military corpsmen as physician extenders because his previous attempts to develop an advanced practice nurse to fullfill the same role were rebuffed by the nursing establishment, and that the current NP programs grew because of the success of the PA program at Duke....

http://www.pahx.org/steadBio.html

 

[Taurus]

No, he's trying to draw a comparison between GWB and his neo-Cons leading the country towards another Great Depression, and the current nursing leaders (Mundinger, etc) leading the nursing world toward disaster by trying to take over the medical world via the DNP. Not one of his greatest comparisons, but Taurus is generally alright.

What is the analogy between Republicans like VP nominee Sarah Palin and nursing leaders like Mundinger? Both use misinformation and lies to advance their agendas.

Take a listen to Palin. What the hell is she talking about? This is potentially our next VP? Scary stuff.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WkCZV83Cp8[/YOUTUBE]

Read the Forbes and WSJ articles about DNP's in my signature. Note how Mundinger tries to advance the idea that DNP's will be equivalent to physicans in all clinical settings including inpatient and ED even though they have 1/17th the training.

The problem that physicians have with DNP's is not they are trying improve their education, but DNP's use misinformation to try to convince the public and the lawmakers that they are something which they are not. It is most problematic with CRNA's and their group the AANA. The DNP's are trying to copy a page from the AANA playbook. However, the physician groups are not playing dead and letting the DNP's run them over. The physician groups are fully engaged in this.

 

[Taurus]

LOL, this is one of the most bizaare things I've read in a while. Caught me totally off gaurd.

You're right, all of this country's problems are totally the fault of nurses...

I apologize, I'm new here so I don't know everyone but, is this person mentally ill?

You should save every ounce of brain power for the MCAT. You're gonna need it.

 

[silas2642]

What is the analogy between Republicans like VP nominee Sarah Palin and nursing leaders like Mundinger? Both use misinformation and lies to advance their agendas.

Take a listen to Palin. What the hell is she talking about? This is potentially our next VP? Scary stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WkCZV83Cp8

Read the Forbes and WSJ articles about DNP's in my signature. Note how Mundinger tries to advance the idea that DNP's will be equivalent to physicans in all clinical settings including inpatient and ED even though they have 1/17th the training.

The problem that physicians have with DNP's is not they are trying improve their education, but DNP's use misinformation to try to convince the public and the lawmakers that they are something which they are not. It is most problematic with CRNA's and their group the AANA. The DNP's are trying to copy a page from the AANA playbook. However, the physician groups are not playing dead and letting the DNP's run them over. The physician groups are fully engaged in this.

What Taurus, you don't want some hot hockey mom to be your next VP and possible next President? Maybe the new pre-med is right, maybe you are mentally ill.

 

[8744]

Actually, the problem is that doctoral degrees, by themselves, are almost meaningless. Just scraps of paper for the most part and just another part of the totally mercenary scam known as higher education. I'm sure there are rigorous degrees in every field but just like anyone with a pulse and the ability to get student loans can matriculate in some university somewhere, any fool can get a Masters or a PhD in something.

I repeat. Higher education is mostly a scam and this extends to most DNP programs which crank out a poor quality but blissfully ignorant and therefore self-confidently dangerous product.

 

[FNPkathy]

There is a fire storm over at the "allnurses" forum regarding online NP programs. Personally, I find it amazing that entire NP programs are being offered online and I believe it damages our profession.

I started out with an online program (took 7 hours), but decided I needed live interaction, so I transferred to a traditional program. I could have saved a ton of time and money by staying with the online school, but I didn't feel that it would prepare me to practice safely as a nurse practitioner.

I have practiced as a NP for almost 4 years now and I currently precept students from an online program. They don't have to take the GRE to get into grad school, they aren't required to have a formal interview for admission and everything is done "online." Most of the students have never met each other or their professors. They aren't watching lectures on CD's or on the internet, but instead, they are basically reading an online text book. Furthermore, these students get to take their tests at home!

As far as clinicals, they only have to complete a minimum of 500-700 hours and they get to choose the preceptors themselves. One Family NP student spent the majority of her clinical hours with a neurologist who doesn't see kids, even though she is now licensed to work in primary care. Other FNP students never received any training in pedes or OB, yet their license allows them to work in these fields.

I don't have a problem with certain classes being offered online, but I find it unbelievable that a person can take 100% of their classes online and then find a preceptor they want to work with...a lot of them never get an "on site" visit from a faculty member.

Can you imagine a medical school being run like this? Since you're our future employers, what do you think about this?

 

[FNPkathy]

I think there is some truth to your statement when we look at np's with lots of time as rn's.
unfortunately many new np's come out of direct entry np programs and had minimal to no time as rn's. I am seeing this in my profession as well. it used to be that every pa was a former medic, rn, rt, etc but now with the advent of ms level programs some programs will take folks right out of undergrad with shadowing or volunteering only and no prior professional credential or training. it is a sad state of affais being pushed by universities trying to make the big bucks on grad school tuition at the expense of the quality of its new grads. I am in a position to hire pa's and np's and I pay special attention now to what they did before school both in terms of life and professional experience.

Guess what, it just got worse! Most of the NP programs can now be done 100% online! Of course, they're required to complete clinical hours with a "real" preceptor, but testing, etc is done online!

Get ready for every person with RN after his/her name to now have "online" NP after their name as well!

 

[FNPkathy]

PAs and NPs are also from different fields, one learns an abbreviated "medical" model (a natural sciences focused undergrad degree + two years worth of medical study) and the other a very in depth "nursing" model (four years for a bachelor's in nursing and two more years for the NP degree). Notice both NPs and PAs end up with six years of schooling and both also commonly need extensive experience.

This isn't true. The majority of PA's I know have either an Associate's Degree or a Bachelor's degree. There are still PA schools that offer a "certificate" and they certainly don't require an undergrad degree to attend!

 

[cbrons]

I don't know if you saw this guys response to your question in another part of this forum. He is far more qualified than most of us to give you an answer:

You would get better responses from physicians and physicians-in-training if you post this question in one of the frequently visited medical forums.

Based on the feedback I get when physicians learn that many existing DNP programs have a significant online component, the first response is shock and then later ridicule. What's signficiant? A student who only visits a campus 2-3 times a semester during the weekends and rest of the time is online. If more physicians realize just how large the online component is, there would be a definite shift away from NP's to PA's.

As a physician, you can't get licensed in this country if a significant chunk of your training was online, even during the pre-clinical years. Carib MD programs have tried this -- to maximize profits with bigger class sizes without having to hire more teachers -- and none of the states I have seen would license their grads. During my medical school, we had some online stuff here and there, but nothing that would be called a significant portion of our training.

Because as physicians, NP's, or PA's, you'll be interacting with patients and other health care professionals, most physicians would look down upon online NP programs. You can't learn how to be a good clinician if the majority of the time is reading about it online. Otherwise, everyone who reads WebMD and googles health care topics would be a clinician.

 

[FNPkathy]

I don't know if you saw this guys response to your question in another part of this forum. He is far more qualified than most of us to give you an answer:

Thanks! This is the first time I've ever visited this forum b/c I didn't know it existed.

I'll try to post my question elsewhere.

 

[FNPkathy]

There is a fire storm over at the "allnurses" forum regarding online NP programs. Personally, I find it amazing that entire NP programs are being offered online and I believe it damages our profession.

I started out with an online program (took 7 hours), but decided I needed live interaction, so I transferred to a traditional program. I could have saved a ton of time and money by staying with the online school, but I didn't feel that it would prepare me to practice safely as a nurse practitioner.

I have practiced as a NP for almost 4 years now and I currently precept students from an online program. They don't have to take the GRE to get into grad school, they aren't required to have a formal interview for admission and everything is done "online." Most of the students have never met each other or their professors. They aren't watching lectures on CD's or on the internet, but instead, they are basically reading an online text book. Furthermore, these students get to take their tests at home!

As far as clinicals, they only have to complete a minimum of 500-700 hours and they get to choose the preceptors themselves. One Family NP student spent the majority of her clinical hours with a neurologist who doesn't see kids, even though she is now licensed to work in primary care. Other FNP students never received any training in pedes or OB, yet their license allows them to work in these fields.

I don't have a problem with certain classes being offered online, but I find it unbelievable that a person can take 100% of their classes online and then find a preceptor they want to work with...a lot of them never get an "on site" visit from a faculty member.

Can you imagine a medical school being run like this? Since you're our future employers, what do you think about this?

 

[Aidan]

You legally can't practice medicine on the internet, thus you probably shouldn't be able to learn how to practice medicine on the internet.

I dunno, I guess that's all I really have to say about it. A lot of medicine is learned from a textbook, but the aspect of medicine that renders good, caring, affectionate "patient people" physicians and nurses, and other health professionals, is their experience with patient contact and the intuitions that are created by studying patients' reactions to things, and analyzing their nonverbal communications.

On top of that, a lot of medical procedures require practice after practice after practice etc etc repeated all through out schooling and training before one masters it. I don't know anything about a CNP's scope of practice, but even things like auscultating the abdomen and thorax can be difficult. I'd assume in on-line school that they listen to different sounds that have been recorded and such, but it's different when you actually hear it in your own patient during school. The short externships or clinicals that online students are required to do are likely not enough time to justify the loads of hands-on learning that can't be done on-line.

Essentially, it'll make nurse practitioners that don't know quite what they're doing, and they'll have to learn experience-based aspects of their job after they're already licensed, rather than while they were in school. I have no idea of what the ramifications of that would be.

 

[braluk]

Sounds like Zlatko University School of Medicine must have a new sister Nursing School!

http://www.zlatkomed.org/

 

[Bartelby]

Yikes, those programs sound terrible!

I would be okay with online education that:

1) Was reasonably selective, something in line with the competitiveness of traditional programs.

2) Administered difficult tests in a standardized way so no one could hang out in their living room with every book open through the entire thing. That means tests happen in a controlled environment.

3) Required as much or more actual clinical time with reputable teaching hospitals (or in line with the standards of traditional schools).

4) Required a stringent skills and knowledge test before graduation; something that any NP should be able to pass.

Honestly I listen to a lot of my med school lectures as podcasts, and I think there is nothing magic about sitting in a lecture hall. The programs you have described, though, seem to leave a lot of room for people who don't know their stuff to squeeze through. If online education is done correctly though (and mixed in with hands on learning), I don't actually see any major problems with it.

 

[meister]

At my school we don't have to go to class and we have our lectures recorded and put online. The big difference? We have to sit our asses in a sit to take all of the tests, and we are required to do a bajillion clinical hours before we are anywhere near completing residency. HUGE difference.

Standardizing DNP education and eliminating online-only schools are only the first steps of many to make the whole thing stop being a laughing stock.

 

[isoman2000]

How is he particularly qualified? He?she is a medical student with a track record of denigrating every advanced practice nurse, he/she is NOT qualified in any way shape or form.