DNP (doctor of nursing practice) vs. DO/MD

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I think this was a very level headed response. I rarely see NPs who don't feel the same way. Unfortunately, the most vocal are those who feel NPs should be completely independent in all realms. It is also those militant NPs who are politically active. Quite frankly it will end up doing patients a disservice.

Blanket statement, fellow. There are NP's in states where they are not independent and they can't get a collaborating physician and the results are patients are hurting due to lack of service. I'm a Psych NP in a state where I'm totally independent. I don't want to have to find nor pay a physician to review charts when I already know what to do or can find out. I do have a physician who is medical supervisor of the clinic I work at and I chat with him via telemed every few weeks. He likes me because he says he never gets calls about my treatments and he likes my work.(He can pull up my notes on any of my patients anytime he wants.) The couple times I've consulted with him he has been in agreement, even when I wanted to change the meds of a Stanford educated physician who is no longer here. I've also noticed that about half of the patients I see around here have FNP's as their PCP and it's still difficult to get in to see anyone. Again, patients are in a lurch. And I have no involement with any political nursing organization.

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Themanatee

Similarly, the FNPs really ought to be out doing primary care
.Most FNP’s in my geographical are ARE in primary care. There are some who do work in ER’s..

I think the future of health care across all specialties is going to be with MDs in more of a supervisory role.
.I disagree, it would mean that as a provider I would see less patients. I refer patients the same way physicians do to specialists. It is routine when one does not see improvement or the patient would be better treated with a specialist. FNP’s are general practitioners after all. NP’s have independent practice in roughly 22 states in the USA..

Instatewaiter
I think this was a very level headed response. I rarely see NPs who don't feel the same way. Unfortunately, the most vocal are those who feel NPs should be completely independent in all realms. It is also those militant NPs who are politically active. Quite frankly it will end up doing patients a disservice.
. .
.There are NP’s who do keep up with policy changes, we need to especially with the current economic climate & the reforms cutbacks. But we can be politically active for the patients behalf. Does not make us “militants” and you are generalizing to label all politically active health care providers militants. Last year, one ENT physician here in New Mexico was elected to the House or Representatives & I certainly would not consider him a ‘militant”..

Blanket statement, fellow. There are NP's in states where they are not independent and they can't get a collaborating physician and the results are patients are hurting due to lack of service. I'm a Psych NP in a state where I'm totally independent. I don't want to have to find nor pay a physician to review charts when I already know what to do. I've also noticed that about half of the patients I see around here have FNP's as their PCP and it's still difficult to get in to see anyone. Again, patients are in a lurch.

.I Agree with Zenman. I’m in the southern part of the same state (New Mexico) working in a combined Family Practice/Urgent Care clinic. I see lots of patients that can not get in to see their PCP so they come in for refills for BP& DM meds. Many of the women have put off getting basic screening exams (paps) for years. As a FNP I can perform this basic exam. Patient are the ones that suffer the consequences. Independent practice is a necessary as most of the state is rural, many patient travel great distances to see a PCP and there are many who list a PA or FNP as their PCP. There are 3 FNP’s in this city who have their own practices..
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Sailor Nurse, MSN, FNP
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I stumbled across this from a link in the SDN News section.

There's a new doctor in town, and she's a nurse. The Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) is an advanced-level practice degree that focuses on the clinical aspects of nursing rather than academic research and education, which earns qualified graduates a PhD. In other words, make an appointment at your doctor's office, and the person making diagnoses and writing prescriptions is more and more likely to be a nurse with the highest degree found in nursing healthcare.

While the DNP has been around for a number of years, interest in the advanced degree has grown mightily in the past 10 years. According to data released in March by the American Association of Colleges of Nursing (AACN), enrollment in doctoral nursing programs — both practice and research-focused — has grown.

The DNP prepares registered nurses (RNs) to become advanced practice nurses. Advanced practice nursing careers include nurse practitioner (NP), certified registered nurse anesthetist (CRNA), certified nurse midwife (CNM), and the clinical nurse specialist (CNS).

"Bringing more nurses into master's and doctoral nursing programs must be a priority given the critical need for nurses to serve as scientists, faculty, primary care providers, specialists, and leaders within the healthcare system," said AACN President Kathleen Potempa. "In response to calls for a more highly educated nursing workforce, our nation's nursing schools are taking decisive action to expand programs that prepare expert nurses to deliver high quality, cost-effective care in a healthcare system undergoing reform."

In October 2010, the Institute of Medicine and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation released a landmark report on The Future of Nursing, which recommended a doubling of the number of nurses in the U.S. workforce who have doctoral degrees. Nursing is well on the way to achieving this recommendation given the widespread growth in the number of Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) programs. In just five years, the number of schools offering the DNP has increased from 20 programs in 2006 to 153 programs in 2010, with another 106 programs in the planning stages. Last year, enrollment in these programs grew by 35.3% with 7,034 students now enrolled in DNP programs.

In 2004, the AACN recommended that all nurses seeking to be credentialed as nurse practitioners earn a DNP degree. The phase-in date is 2015. The National Organization of Nurse Practitioner Faculties (NONPF) endorsed this recommendation, and other nursing organizations agreed that it should be an option. This degree and plan for nursing practice has caused some debate.

Confusion, Concern and Controversy
The first version of a clinical doctorate, a nursing doctorate (ND), was established at Case Western Reserve University, in 1979. A few other schools followed suit, but the nursing profession did not have a clear understanding of either the ND or the doctorate of nursing science degree. Some people confused the ND with the MD degree. For these reasons and because the degree required a research dissertation despite the clinical concept, the clinical doctorate did not expand quickly.

The more recent programs focused on clinical practice are much more popular. Seven schools — the University of Kentucky, the University of Colorado, Rush University, the University of Tennessee in Memphis, the University of South Carolina, Case Western Reserve University, and Columbia University — are considered the DNP's "seven sisters," or pioneers.

Each DNP program contains a minimum of 1,000 clinical hours, and graduates complete a 1-year residency to become NPs. The DNP will also be the educational baseline for certification in the three advanced practice nursing roles: nurse midwife, nurse anesthetist and clinical nurse specialist.

Criticism of the DNP has come from many fronts including nurses, nurse practitioners, physicians, and other groups. In a 2006 article published in the Journal of Nursing Education, two advanced practice nurses came to the conclusion that the existing degree system satisfactorily prepares nurse practitioners, and the new degree requirements overly complicate the already existing system.

The title of "doctor" has its own critics, claiming the the prefix confuses and misleads patients. When making an appointment for healthcare, patients may be led to believe they are being treated by a doctor of medicine (MD) or a doctor of osteopathy (DO), not a DNP. Some physician organizations also dispute the quality of care a patient will receive from a DNP, since they receive far less training than MDs and DOs.

While the years of training is a distinct contrast between the two professions, it is the prolonged education of physicians through specialty residencies that has helped compound the primary care shortages in the United States. The DNP offers a practical solution with its primary care emphasis and streamlined clinical focus.

The bolded part above is a great example of why the DNP is a sham. It is being framed as a clinical degree....yet it is full of "fluff" courses. Here is a listing of "core" classes from Columbia's program:

N9300Comparative Quantitative Research Design and Methodology I
N9400Practice Management
N9412Informatics for Advanced Practice
N9538Advanced Seminar in Clinical Genomics
N9600Legal and Ethical Issues
N9672Principles of Epidemiology and Environmental Health
N9910Translation and Synthesis of Evidence for Optimal Outcomes

How are any of those classes, "focused on the clinical aspects of nursing, rather than academic research and education"? This push for DNP degrees is ridiculous.
 
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The "study" is relatively old news and has major flaws.

First, notice that it is published in the journal: Nursing Economics- a throw-away journal. I'm not even sure that it is peer-reviewed. That alone should tell you no one else would publish it and that the study is probably garbage.

They use meta-analysis to compile date, the problem is that a meta-analysis is only as good as the studies it compiles. The studies that have been done have had massive methodologic flaws so the data compiled is very weak. Some of the studies don't control for different patient populations, others use clinically worthless metrics with regard to the pathophysiologic differences and still others are biased. In the end, the study means next to nothing. Unfortunately the politicians don't have the training to figure that out and physicians (or nurses) aren't doing well designed studies.
 
The "study" is relatively old news and has major flaws.

First, notice that it is published in the journal: Nursing Economics- a throw-away journal. I'm not even sure that it is peer-reviewed. That alone should tell you no one else would publish it and that the study is probably garbage.

They use meta-analysis to compile date, the problem is that a meta-analysis is only as good as the studies it compiles. The studies that have been done have had massive methodologic flaws so the data compiled is very weak. Some of the studies don't control for different patient populations, others use clinically worthless metrics with regard to the pathophysiologic differences and still others are biased. In the end, the study means next to nothing. Unfortunately the politicians don't have the training to figure that out and physicians (or nurses) aren't doing well designed studies.

Seriously. Out of interest and procrastination, I skimmed the article and looked at the first "high quality" study on their list, the Becker (2005) article in Circulation. The whole point of the article was comparing community-based clinics to "enhanced" primary care clinics in reaching what is a poorly reached patient population. The community-based clinic with a nurse practitioner (who communicates all treatment plans with an MD, by the way) was within walking distance of most of their study group. The enhanced primary care clinic run by the MDs were not. Um, confounding factor, perhaps? The point of the article wasn't NP vs MD, it was community-based vs traditional clinic. Now, this isn't a "study on nursing education or students," but somehow it passed the exclusion criteria. Selection bias, anyone?
 
The "study" is relatively old news and has major flaws.

First, notice that it is published in the journal: Nursing Economics- a throw-away journal. I'm not even sure that it is peer-reviewed. That alone should tell you no one else would publish it and that the study is probably garbage.

They use meta-analysis to compile date, the problem is that a meta-analysis is only as good as the studies it compiles. The studies that have been done have had massive methodologic flaws so the data compiled is very weak. Some of the studies don't control for different patient populations, others use clinically worthless metrics with regard to the pathophysiologic differences and still others are biased. In the end, the study means next to nothing. Unfortunately the politicians don't have the training to figure that out and physicians (or nurses) aren't doing well designed studies.

You have lost all credibility. You know why? You forgot the "$" in the journal title. "Nursing Economic$"

So much awesome in that. From now on, I will be referring to myself as a "Registered Nur$e".

dolla dolla bill y'all
 
I know, it's pretty terrible the journal actually has a $ sign in the title. The actual name of the journal is "Nursing Economic$."

Not even kidding. The name is really Nursing Economic$

I left it out for the bias factor and figured I'd get the point across by calling it a throw-away journal. But you're right, it is pretty ridiculous that a real medical or nursing journal would have something like that. Next we'll have journal names with smiley faces.


I hear the new edition of J@M@ is coming out soon. $cience will be out in a few weeks and N:)ture will be soon to follow
 
I know, it's pretty terrible the journal actually has a $ sign in the title. The actual name of the journal is "Nursing Economic$."

Not even kidding. The name is really Nursing Economic$

I left it out for the bias factor and figured I'd get the point across by calling it a throw-away journal. But you're right, it is pretty ridiculous that a real medical or nursing journal would have something like that. Next we'll have journal names with smiley faces.


I hear the new edition of J@M@ is coming out soon. $cience will be out in a few weeks and N:)ture will be soon to follow

Related to the "patient satisfaction" rubric for clinician evaluation:

My eyes were opened to this my first semester of NP clinicals. The patients LOVED me. A big part of this was due to my professionalism and pleasant manner. Fine, I'll take that, I'm glad I could make them comfortable even though I am a student.

However, the other thing I got universally lauded for was my "thoroughness." Now, we all know what this really means...that as a student, I needed to do thorough head-to-toe exams because I am IGNORANT. I lack both the knowledge base and clinical experience to make the quick exam and diagnosis that my physician preceptors were capable of. However, to the patients, my lengthy interview and exam (coupled with how I present myself) equated to "patient satisfaction."

As a student, I am very relieved to have patients who are not annoyed by my plodding exams. I do not for an instant allow this "satisfaction" to become conflated with clinical acumen in my own self-assessment. It rankles that the NP world has adopted this metric as a way of demonstrating clinical ability. As nurses, we all have had patients who "liked" another nurse more than us. Sometimes its a personality issue, and sometimes it's because we had to tell the patient something they didn't want to hear. In those cases, I judge my nursing ability on rational evaluation, not patient satisfaction. Why should I suddenly decide I'm a better clinician just because the patient "likes" me more than the physician?
 
Ahh how this takes me back. I’ve been a internal medicine hospitalist for about 4 years now, and I started my first job as a hospitalist when I was 26.
My first job was in Philadelphia. I loved the job and my 7 on/ 7 off schedule and had 2 PA’s and 2 NP’s working with me-all which were almost 5-20 years older than me. I respected them and their experience which made my job a whole lot easier. It was a good team, but there were two people that caused me distress. An NP and an PA. They were both experienced and in their 40′s. One day, a patient was hospitalized with severe pain on her foot, where we saw a small sore. The two men were simply convinced it was just a small infection, but the tests did not add up. I suspected is was something more, so I told them to wait and run a few blood tests. I reviewed the tests myself after and went home.

The next day I came back to find out, they had stepped out of their grounds by lieing and telling the patient they were medical doctors and given the patient a treatment which had caused complications causing her to go in septic shock. When i confronted the men they both snapped and told said
“We are just as qualified as you are.
“You doctors think you’re just the **** because you wasted your lives in medical school and residency. I know just as much and even more than you do and i should be earning as much.”
I called security right after and the two men were stripped of their right to practice medicine and sued for pretending to be doctors. I quickly called a dermatologist because i believed the sore to be skin cancer and he confirmed and treated her and thank god, he saved her life.
I don’t have a problem against NP’s or PA’s. I honestly love them, but they SHOULD NOT overstep their boundaries and try to be doctors. They should know their limits and so should doctors.


Also, I do believe DNP's can provide good primary care to the 75% of the people who's illness are JUST colds, muscle pains, etc...But what worries me is the 25% THAT AREN'T JUST colds, muscle pains, and etc but the DNP's will still send them home with some pills. DNP's just don't have enough training to be able to understand the full scale of practicing medicine and neither does Mundinger to be able to make such claims. Those "Satifaction surveys" were pointless because it showed satifaction NOT how effective and knowledgeable DNP's were at doing their job. No one but Doctors of Medicine know the burden of practicing medicine.

Oh and incase some of you would like to look through this account and point out the other post, just know this isn't my account. It's my brothers and I just came to give my two cents.
 
The next day I came back to find out, they had stepped out of their grounds by lieing and telling the patient they were medical doctors and given the patient a treatment which had caused complications causing her to go in septic shock.

Something smells funny about this post. Not necessarily trying to call you out, but what exactly did they do to the patients foot that caused septic shock in one day? Exactly what labs did you order, and what were the results?

I called security right after

Really? You can call security on someone and have them hauled off for not following orders?

and the two men were stripped of their right to practice medicine and sued for pretending to be doctors.

Who sued them, exactly? Who stripped them of their licenses?
 
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I am also intrigued by this post. I have worked in military clinics and hospitals for 4 years, and in a civilian hospital for 4 years now and it just does not seem to add up. Maybe the timeline or how you transcribed it in your post is at fault. I am not trying to call you out either. I would just like some clarification and more details.
 
Something smells funny about this post. Not necessarily trying to call you out, but what exactly did they do to the patients foot that caused septic shock in one day? Exactly what labs did you order, and what were the results?



Really? You can call security on someone and have them hauled off for not following orders?



Who sued them, exactly? Who stripped them of their licenses?

In order..

1) What, your hospital doesn't give staph infusions?

2) If they were actually screaming in his face, I could see this happening

3) Patient and nursing board/medical board (for NP then PA respectively), in that order.
 
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In order..

1) What, your hospital doesn't give staph infusions?

Well, we try not to. :D Not sure what one is, but it doesn't sound good!

2) If they were actually screaming in his face, I could see this happening

3) Patient and nursing board/medical board (for NP then PA respectively), in that order.

The general tone of the post just sounds like it is a made up story to me and it is suspicious for a number reasons. First, why would this "hospitalist" post under his brother's account? Second, he mentions being an hospitalist working 7 days on/7 off. Curiously, in previous posts from the actual account owner, the pre-med poster says he wants to be an hospitalist that works 7 days on/7 off. Third, he didn't mention what procedure the PA/NP performed that "caused" the sepsis, and furthermore, it would be next impossible to know definitively that the procedure caused the sepsis (it could have been an IV, a blood draw, the patient picking his nose and then scratching the wound, the dirty hands of a care provider, etc.) and an attending would know that. Fourth, the story of the PA and NP allegedly saying that to someone is simply not believable. Possible, but not believable, especially when the poster described them both as being in their 40's with a lot of experience. People in their positions with heads that hot don't usually make it long in any career. Fifth, the wording/tone/vocabulary/spelling does not sound like someone that has graduated med school.

As for #3, I am well aware of that - I wanted to see if the poster knew it. But now you've given him the answer. Thanks for blowing it. :)

So, I have given the poster an opportunity to answer my questions - we'll see if he does and then you can judge the veracity of the post on your own.
 
Ahh how this takes me back. I've been a internal medicine hospitalist for about 4 years now, and I started my first job as a hospitalist when I was 26.
My first job was in Philadelphia. I loved the job and my 7 on/ 7 off schedule and had 2 PA's and 2 NP's working with me-all which were almost 5-20 years older than me. I respected them and their experience which made my job a whole lot easier. It was a good team, but there were two people that caused me distress. An NP and an PA. They were both experienced and in their 40′s. One day, a patient was hospitalized with severe pain on her foot, where we saw a small sore. The two men were simply convinced it was just a small infection, but the tests did not add up. I suspected is was something more, so I told them to wait and run a few blood tests. I reviewed the tests myself after and went home.

The next day I came back to find out, they had stepped out of their grounds by lieing and telling the patient they were medical doctors and given the patient a treatment which had caused complications causing her to go in septic shock. When i confronted the men they both snapped and told said
"We are just as qualified as you are.
"You doctors think you're just the **** because you wasted your lives in medical school and residency. I know just as much and even more than you do and i should be earning as much."
I called security right after and the two men were stripped of their right to practice medicine and sued for pretending to be doctors. I quickly called a dermatologist because i believed the sore to be skin cancer and he confirmed and treated her and thank god, he saved her life.
I don't have a problem against NP's or PA's. I honestly love them, but they SHOULD NOT overstep their boundaries and try to be doctors. They should know their limits and so should doctors.


Also, I do believe DNP's can
 
I see the plot for a soap opera here....
 
Oh and incase some of you would like to look through this account and point out the other post, just know this isn't my account. It's my brothers and I just came to give my two cents.

As an FYI, it is against SDN's Terms of Service to use another person's account to post your story. But, nice try.

If you would like to post your "own" story, PLEASE REGISTER FOR YOUR OWN ACCOUNT. It's free, quick, and, again, free.

Continued abuse of your "brother's" account will result in a ban of your "brother's" account from this website. So if you don't want to get your "brother" in trouble, I would highly highly highly suggest that you get your own account.

And, as an aside, if it turns out that your "brother" and yourself are actually the same person, creation of a second account would be considered "sock puppeting," which is also a bannable offense. Just so that you're aware.

[/tangent]
 
Whenever a field appears lucrative, people will always try to get into it (which is no problem, competition makes things better). The problem occurs when someone tries to do the same job without bothering to go through the same training because it‘s time consuming and costly. That is why every field has certification exams + licensing criteria: lawyers, accountants, even plumbers need to be licensed. A paralegal can do many things a lawyer can do, but they cant represent a client in a court. Why should the medical field be any different.

But to be honest, the cat's out of the bag. Previously, doctors had to compete with homeopaths and lots of other types of healers. Most likely we will have to do the same in the future. :thumbup:
 
A paralegal can do many things a lawyer can do, but they cant represent a client in a court. Why should the medical field be any different.
:thumbup:

Actually there is a number of situations that paralegals can represent clients in court.

http://www.paralegals.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=334

So... every thing is kind of taylored to the needs of an area or situation. Military PA's and PA's that work for the federal government practice independently... Just like NP's can practice independently in 23 states I think.

No one is trying to take the "quick route" or "fast track" their way around anything! They just need to get the job done. Sometimes it comes down to being overburdened and rendered ineffective with legislative constraints. Then that in turn breeds a desparate situation. Then you have to taylor or remove the constraints, or flood the ranks with qualified personal that meet all the constraints criteria. The latter of that being near impossible in some scenarios.
 
I am a RN and I've had my own doubts about the DNP. Too many of the programs seem too fluffy and don't expand actual knowledge, especially in my field, NICU. There are few exceptions that add clinical hours and courses related to your field, but it's by no means across the baseline.

My feelings are that some NPs probably could practice fairly autonomously as I know some that are excellent, but on the other hand, my thoughts are this: There are good doctors and bad doctors just like with good/bad NPs, but I feel like there is probably a higher chance of bad NPs than docs since there is more knowledge upfront to be obtained by licensed docs. Especially when you consider the direct entry NPs who become a NP without any RN experience. I don't think I'd trust many of them unless they'd been practicing for a very long time.

I may end up getting the DNP, however, because that is the trend of how things are going and I want to be able to teach at a university level to future undergrad/grad nursing students. I won't be able to do that with a masters. It's rapidly disappearing from nursing schools and I'm not sold on getting a nursing PhD. Do you folks consider this to be okay?
 
Contessa: my sister is in the dissertation phase of her PhD Nursing at U. Of Arizona--she has been working on this for nearly 6 yr. it does not appear to be any fluff...complex biostats and stuff I will never understand. Like you, she is a NICU RN expert with no interest in DNP and has received great mentoring in research and teaching and has been first author on 2 important papers in NICU research in the past year. She is working with nurse leaders as well as neonatologists and making valuable connections in her field nationwide. Might be worth a look...most of her tuition is reimbursable with the Nursing Faculty Grant too.
Good luck!
 
My uncle Rodger has both a DNP degree and a PhD. He was previously the Director of Health and Human Services in Alameda County, CA. He is now a professor at San Francisco State University. When he was a clinician, he introduced himself to patients as Dr. Forest, your nurse practitioner. And his lab coat embroidery read "Dr. Rodger Forest, DNP, PhD". I believe he added the prefix "Dr." because of this PhD, not because of his DNP degree. However, his badge did not identify him as a doctor. Of course, now that he is a professor, all his students call him Dr. Forest.
 
When I introduce myself to a patient I start with "Hi I am Dr. Y, a resident and my attending is Dr. X" so introduction aside the issue for me is that there is a huge difference in training. The old and tired argument of” I am a nurse and have lots of bedside experience” makes up for the lack of rigorous clinical training and the short duration of the clinical training is absurd.
I was an RN prior to medical school and the nursing content is nothing close to the didactic requirements of medical school, and the experience gained during training as a nursing student and even the skills acquired working as a licensed nurse prior to medical school is not even close to what is required to practice medicine. They are two completely different training models with different objectives and the majority of those skills [nursing] are not transferable. This is mostly due to the depth of knowledge required to practice medicine that is not obtained while training as a nurse and nor is this depth obtained during advanced nurse practitioner training. We have new PA graduates working with us where I train and they have a good foundation secondary to their training to work from, but have many deficits that are usually resolved within the first year of their practice as they gather experience.
The issue I have with NPs where I practice is that I see their patient’s in the ER and I am often confronted with incomplete work ups and a referral to the ER with ongoing complaints after they have x-rayed the patients ordered every lab and still do not have an answer that addresses the patient’s complaints. I see the patient in the ER and pick up where the NP left off because after inconclusive radiology and laboratory studies they do not have any other avenues to resolve the complaint. My point is that their lack of in depth training does not provide a platform for working through a broad differential diagnosis. I am sure there are some great NPs out there but my recent experience has not been that impressive. I recently got a patient with “ST segment elevation” because the EKG machine print out indicated ST segment elevation but the machine was wrong (not unusual) and a very expensive evaluation for not being able to read an EKG.
The NP does a great job managing chronic conditions diagnosed and requiring ongoing care such as HTN, DM, CAD but do not do as well with poorly controlled heart failure, brittle DM, poorly controlled HTN (I am constantly sent asymptomatic patients with elevated BP), patient’s sent to the ER after calling the providers office with continued complaints and told to go to the ER (after the above work up), and sometimes odd medication choices in my opinion.
The PAs I work with, work very independently, but also have a resource when the case becomes a bit more complex. I am by no means an expert and am often grateful that I have an easy transfer process to a higher level of care when there is significant pathology (stroke, orthopedic injuries our guys can’t manage, pediatric disasters, etc.) but I can work up the patient and identify those needs quickly without shot gunning the work up. That comes from approximately 9,000 to 10,000 hours of residency and 8-10K patients seen by the time I graduate and that does not include the 3-4K hours of clerkship (3rd & 4th year of med school). I am trained to manage the 30 year old hypotensive, comatose patient with a failing airway. Believe me, I am not excited when that rolls in but I am the last stop prior to being discharged with dirt nap discharge instructions. So I manage it based on my training and sometimes it feels like “muscle memory” because some of the actions I take seem like automatic reactions made without a lot of thought (e.g., ABCs and RSI intubation). I like working with Pas and NPs and I worked with an awesome NP during a trauma rotation, she was really well versed in her area of practice, and it was impressive.
I think my biggest issue is this idea that 2 years of advanced nursing training that includes a year of pathophysiology and a year of pharmacology makes the individual equal to a residency trained family practice physician, and that the NP should be paid 100% of Medicare reimbursement for half the training and a tenth of the clinical hours . This is a real insult to those family practice physicians that worked so hard to achieve that level of training. I think that NPs should not practice independently without supervision, and I have not seen a study that is well done and proves NPs outcomes are the same or better than a board certified FP doctor. The real wakeup call will be when NP malpractice rates skyrocket past board certified physician rates and the new reporting requirements document actual outcomes (once nursing boards actually start reporting adverse outcomes to the national registry – some don’t if a malpractice case was not involved in the complaint). If I am disciplined by the board of medicine - I am on that national registry - this should apply to NPs as well.
 
zenman you are the PROTOTYPE NP that give all other NP's a bad name. You go on and on about how you do not need a supervising physician, how you find zebras like bipolar disorder, how you look up what you need to know in guyton, or google it as if that will instantly provide you with all of the information you need and the fact that I spent 8 years study medicine was a poor choice because I could simply google it. You wrestle tigers, personally know Buddha, and speed down zip lines - all such ridiculous nonsense! My previous post defines my position on NPs as PCPs but your blathering about how great you are just makes no sense...
 
zenman you are the PROTOTYPE NP that give all other NP's a bad name. You go on and on about how you do not need a supervising physician, how you find zebras like bipolar disorder, how you look up what you need to know in guyton, or google it as if that will instantly provide you with all of the information you need and the fact that I spent 8 years study medicine was a poor choice because I could simply google it. You wrestle tigers, personally know Buddha, and speed down zip lines - all such ridiculous nonsense! My previous post defines my position on NPs as PCPs but your blathering about how great you are just makes no sense...

I think my experience and my references (I'll share them with you if you want your experienced peers opinions) show that I do not give other NP's a bad name. Just because I can get on this forum and confront others on here doesn't mean I'd be a bitch if I were a female in the corporate world where the same behavior was normal with the males. I've said I'm in a state where I can have independent practice. That does not mean I don't consult physicians when I want to run a case by them. I also currently work at a hospital where I have a medical director. I personally like Bipolar disorder and just have the talent of being able to "smell them coming." I make mistakes like everyone else and I'm constantly learning. I don't think your choice in going the physician route was wrong at all if that's what you want. That's up to you.

And don't piss on my life experiences...having studied Zen Shiatsu (I know one German Family Practice doc that gave up his practice because he felt he was doing more good with Zen Shiatsu), Zen Meditation, Kyudo (Zen Archery), Taiji, Hapkido, Medical Qi Gonq, Yoga, and shamanism, I have learned how to get out of my head (where all your training has you stuck) and I have many more viewpoints of assessing a patient than you do. That's just the route I took while you chose another. Got it?
 
I think my experience and my references (I'll share them with you if you want your experienced peers opinions) show that I do not give other NP's a bad name. Just because I can get on this forum and confront others on here doesn't mean I'd be a bitch if I were a female in the corporate world where the same behavior was normal with the males. I've said I'm in a state where I can have independent practice. That does not mean I don't consult physicians when I want to run a case by them. I also currently work at a hospital where I have a medical director. I personally like Bipolar disorder and just have the talent of being able to "smell them coming." I make mistakes like everyone else and I'm constantly learning. I don't think your choice in going the physician route was wrong at all if that's what you want. That's up to you.

And don't piss on my life experiences...having studied Zen Shiatsu (I know one German Family Practice doc that gave up his practice because he felt he was doing more good with Zen Shiatsu), Zen Meditation, Kyudo (Zen Archery), Taiji, Hapkido, Medical Qi Gonq, Yoga, and shamanism, I have learned how to get out of my head (where all your training has you stuck) and I have many more viewpoints of assessing a patient than you do. That's just the route I took while you chose another. Got it?

oh-no-you-didnt-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-216.gif
 
And don't piss on my life experiences...having studied Zen Shiatsu (I know one German Family Practice doc that gave up his practice because he felt he was doing more good with Zen Shiatsu), Zen Meditation, Kyudo (Zen Archery), Taiji, Hapkido, Medical Qi Gonq, Yoga, and shamanism, I have learned how to get out of my head (where all your training has you stuck) and I have many more viewpoints of assessing a patient than you do. That's just the route I took while you chose another. Got it?

Lao Tzu said:
“When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everyone will respect you.”
Tao Te Ching
 
I think my experience and my references (I'll share them with you if you want your experienced peers opinions) show that I do not give other NP's a bad name. Just because I can get on this forum and confront others on here doesn't mean I'd be a bitch if I were a female in the corporate world where the same behavior was normal with the males. I've said I'm in a state where I can have independent practice. That does not mean I don't consult physicians when I want to run a case by them. I also currently work at a hospital where I have a medical director. I personally like Bipolar disorder and just have the talent of being able to "smell them coming." I make mistakes like everyone else and I'm constantly learning. I don't think your choice in going the physician route was wrong at all if that's what you want. That's up to you.

And don't piss on my life experiences...having studied Zen Shiatsu (I know one German Family Practice doc that gave up his practice because he felt he was doing more good with Zen Shiatsu), Zen Meditation, Kyudo (Zen Archery), Taiji, Hapkido, Medical Qi Gonq, Yoga, and shamanism, I have learned how to get out of my head (where all your training has you stuck) and I have many more viewpoints of assessing a patient than you do. That's just the route I took while you chose another. Got it?[/QUOTE]


Hah, yup I concur you definately give NPs a bad name. How the fuk would you even know the above? Your route somehow magically means you have more viewpoints than another? Really? Were your drunk when you wrote this? Your humility is absolutely amazing.
 
I think my experience and my references (I'll share them with you if you want your experienced peers opinions) show that I do not give other NP's a bad name. Just because I can get on this forum and confront others on here doesn't mean I'd be a bitch if I were a female in the corporate world where the same behavior was normal with the males. I've said I'm in a state where I can have independent practice. That does not mean I don't consult physicians when I want to run a case by them. I also currently work at a hospital where I have a medical director. I personally like Bipolar disorder and just have the talent of being able to "smell them coming." I make mistakes like everyone else and I'm constantly learning. I don't think your choice in going the physician route was wrong at all if that's what you want. That's up to you.

And don't piss on my life experiences...having studied Zen Shiatsu (I know one German Family Practice doc that gave up his practice because he felt he was doing more good with Zen Shiatsu), Zen Meditation, Kyudo (Zen Archery), Taiji, Hapkido, Medical Qi Gonq, Yoga, and shamanism, I have learned how to get out of my head (where all your training has you stuck) and I have many more viewpoints of assessing a patient than you do. That's just the route I took while you chose another. Got it?[/QUOTE]


Hah, yup I concur you definately give NPs a bad name. How the fuk would you even know the above? Your route somehow magically means you have more viewpoints than another? Really? Were your drunk when you wrote this? Your humility is absolutely amazing.

A friend of mine, a former nurse, who's now a med student admitted to me how in nursing school they are fed so much propaganda and BS about how they, unlike doctors, provide "holistic care" (whatever that means :rolleyes:), how they are "more compassionate" and how they learn the same things doctors learn etc etc.. Clearly some nurses have bought into that self-serving propaganda...

I recall a nursing student whom I just met for 5mins at a cafe, casually , tell me that "Oh I thought about doing medicine, but nurses take the same classes and do the same things, only difference is that we (doctors) get paid more BUT patients like nurses better.." I was speechless...:laugh::laugh:
 
A friend of mine, a former nurse, who's now a med student admitted to me how in nursing school they are fed so much propaganda and BS about how they, unlike doctors, provide "holistic care" (whatever that means :rolleyes:), how they are "more compassionate" and how they learn the same things doctors learn etc etc.. Clearly some nurses have bought into that self-serving propaganda...

I recall a nursing student whom I just met for 5mins at a cafe, casually , tell me that "Oh I thought about doing medicine, but nurses take the same classes and do the same things, only difference is that we (doctors) get paid more BUT patients like nurses better.." I was speechless...:laugh::laugh:

I can attest as a nursing student that we do get some of that BS propaganda from some profs but the majority of the of the dialogue is rather neutral.

People like nurses more than doctors? I've read multiple time that nurses are always in the top 5 of most trusted professions, but never that they are liked more than docs.

Why I personally did nursing? Honestly, I was afraid that if I didn't get into med school I would be stuck with a rather useless BS in Bio or Chem (You can argue they aren't useless but the salaries don't even touch nursing). It pays very well on the west coast where I live (70-110k) so it seemed like a decent choice for undergraduate school. I am sure most of you know how most undergrad degrees at any given 4 year universities are rather worthless besides the obvious, engineering, accounting, finance comp sci etc. So in a sense it was a safety I guess.

But ya that nursing student was off her rocker and she reminds me of many people in my cohort. Most balk at my desire to go into medicine but meh.

I swear if I have to do an actual nursing diagnosis (still don't get the point of it) while I work part time before med school I am going to shoot myself...

/rant
 
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A friend of mine, a former nurse, who's now a med student admitted to me how in nursing school they are fed so much propaganda and BS about how they, unlike doctors, provide "holistic care" (whatever that means :rolleyes:), how they are "more compassionate" and how they learn the same things doctors learn etc etc.. Clearly some nurses have bought into that self-serving propaganda...

I recall a nursing student whom I just met for 5mins at a cafe, casually , tell me that "Oh I thought about doing medicine, but nurses take the same classes and do the same things, only difference is that we (doctors) get paid more BUT patients like nurses better.." I was speechless...:laugh::laugh:

I think we call these defense mechanisms

having studied Zen Shiatsu (I know one German Family Practice doc that gave up his practice because he felt he was doing more good with Zen Shiatsu), Zen Meditation, Kyudo (Zen Archery), Taiji, Hapkido, Medical Qi Gonq, Yoga, and shamanism, I have learned how to get out of my head (where all your training has you stuck) and I have many more viewpoints of assessing a patient than you do. That's just the route I took while you chose another. Got it?

you'd think with all that Zen Meditation and Shasmanism you might be less insecure.
 
A friend of mine, a former nurse, who's now a med student admitted to me how in nursing school they are fed so much propaganda and BS about how they, unlike doctors, provide "holistic care" (whatever that means :rolleyes:), how they are "more compassionate" and how they learn the same things doctors learn etc etc.. Clearly some nurses have bought into that self-serving propaganda...

I recall a nursing student whom I just met for 5mins at a cafe, casually , tell me that "Oh I thought about doing medicine, but nurses take the same classes and do the same things, only difference is that we (doctors) get paid more BUT patients like nurses better.." I was speechless...:laugh::laugh:

I think there are nurses who are really great at interacting with patients. I think there are nurses who absolutely suck at it. I think there are doctors who are great at interacting with patients. I think there are doctors who absolutely suck at it.
 
I think my experience and my references (I'll share them with you if you want your experienced peers opinions) show that I do not give other NP's a bad name. Just because I can get on this forum and confront others on here doesn't mean I'd be a bitch if I were a female in the corporate world where the same behavior was normal with the males. I've said I'm in a state where I can have independent practice. That does not mean I don't consult physicians when I want to run a case by them. I also currently work at a hospital where I have a medical director. I personally like Bipolar disorder and just have the talent of being able to "smell them coming." I make mistakes like everyone else and I'm constantly learning. I don't think your choice in going the physician route was wrong at all if that's what you want. That's up to you.

And don't piss on my life experiences...having studied Zen Shiatsu (I know one German Family Practice doc that gave up his practice because he felt he was doing more good with Zen Shiatsu), Zen Meditation, Kyudo (Zen Archery), Taiji, Hapkido, Medical Qi Gonq, Yoga, and shamanism, I have learned how to get out of my head (where all your training has you stuck) and I have many more viewpoints of assessing a patient than you do. That's just the route I took while you chose another. Got it?[/QUOTE]


Hah, yup I concur you definately give NPs a bad name. How the fuk would you even know the above? Your route somehow magically means you have more viewpoints than another? Really? Were your drunk when you wrote this? Your humility is absolutely amazing.

Nope, don't drink more than a 6 pack a year. It should be simple for even you to see. You have a hammer; I have many other tools.
 
One thing you ain't got is humility.

Not on this board scrapping with you guys. Otherwise you have no idea, correct? I am self-assured and have good ego strength which is what's needed don't you think?
 
Not on this board scrapping with you guys. Otherwise you have no idea, correct? I am self-assured and have good ego strength which is what's needed don't you think?

We have all had that 1 1/2 ppd smoker who simply refused to listen to us when we tried to tell him/her that smoking was, indeed, bad for them. Instead, they would tell us that they read "something on the internet" that told them otherwise, or simply relate to us that their grandfather smoked 3 packs of pall-malls a day for 40 years and was never sick a day in his life.

We all know the frustration we have with someone who is sooooo intransigent in their ridiculous position. It is doubly frustrating when this person is a medical provider, but just like the smoker described above, there is no amount of arguing that is going to change their mind. The smoker will never admit that smoking is bad for them, and Zenman will never admit that actual medicine is better than his alternative therapies.
 
We have all had that 1 1/2 ppd smoker who simply refused to listen to us when we tried to tell him/her that smoking was, indeed, bad for them. Instead, they would tell us that they read "something on the internet" that told them otherwise, or simply relate to us that their grandfather smoked 3 packs of pall-malls a day for 40 years and was never sick a day in his life.

We all know the frustration we have with someone who is sooooo intransigent in their ridiculous position. It is doubly frustrating when this person is a medical provider, but just like the smoker described above, there is no amount of arguing that is going to change their mind. The smoker will never admit that smoking is bad for them, and Zenman will never admit that actual medicine is better than his alternative therapies.

You're trained in one area, correct, so that is your world view. I just happen to have multiple viewpoints and can use the one most appropriate for the job. Like I said, you only have a hammer while I have multiple tools. Sorry this is so frustrating for you. Think very hard about why more people turn to alternative practitioners than allopathic medicine. People would not go elsewhere if they were happy at your place of business.
 
FYI, DNP folks can and will call themselves doctor. There is no regulation barring that. I agree it is misleading and wrong, but will happen.

:thumbdown:


A quick google search gives you over 75 places you can go and get your DNP online. http://www.bestnursingdegree.com/programs/online-doctorate-in-nursing/

I suggest everyone actually look at the programs- They lack any clinical focus, yet a degree holder wants to be addressed in a clinical setting as Doctor. Im still searching on google for the online MD/DO schools- Maybe some of you who are better at internet searching can find them.
 
A quick google search gives you over 75 places you can go and get your DNP online. http://www.bestnursingdegree.com/programs/online-doctorate-in-nursing/

I suggest everyone actually look at the programs- They lack any clinical focus, yet a degree holder wants to be addressed in a clinical setting as Doctor. Im still searching on google for the online MD/DO schools- Maybe some of you who are better at internet searching can find them.

I don't think I have ever met a DNP holder or PhD holder for that matter that wanted to be addressed as doctor outside the didactic/academic setting.
 
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