DMD/DO Dual Degree at Nova

[Yah-E]

Alright you DOs, tell me that you think this is odd! Starting next year, NSUCOM students have the option of enrolling into a dual degree program, DMD/DO, at Nova Southeastern University!

Now it's not my dental school offering the DO option, but it's the DO school offering the DMD option!

In dentistry, we have DMD/MD dual degree option due to Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery residencies (6 years), but I doubt that any dental schools will offer a DMD/DO dual degree programs anytime soon. To think of it, Nova may be the only University in the country that has both a dental program and an osteopathy program.

Why do you think that NSUCOM have decided to offer a DMD for their students? A way out of osteopathy? I was kind of amazed by this announcement! This announcement was printed in the offical NSUCOM newsletter, COM OUTLOOK, Spring 2003 edition, volume 4, Number 2.

What do you all think of this? Let's share some thoughts! Cool idea or stupid idea?

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[ameier14]

The idea is not new. My best friend at U of Kentucky dental school wants to be an oral surgeon, like his father. Oral surgeons are more restricted than ever on what kinds of procedures they are allowed to perform. (neck, facial surgery, etc.) U of Kentucky has an MD/DMD program. Why should it be any different for a DMD/DO program? No controversy here. Pretty smart actually. And no... its not a way out of osteopathy. If anything, its a way out of dentistry. A DO behind your name offers less restriction. This program is for the DMD students benefit. I doubt very few DO students are interested in the dual degree.

 

[Yah-E]

DMD/MD is not new, but for a DO school to offer DMD is VERY NEW!

Now let's get it straight!

Oral surgery is a dental specialty, MD is acheived at the of a 6-year residency (in addition to 4 years of dental school). This is not new. (A dental school graduate going after a MD degree)

Now, I'm asking what do you guys think about a DO school graduate going after a dental degree! That is what I'm talking about!

I'm NOT saying that my dental school is going after a DO degree. It's NSUCOM graduates going after a dental degree! A DO school offering a DMD dual degree route!

 

[Supernumerary]

Interesting idea.

Do folks have to apply to the dual degree program when they matriculate or will DO students just choose dental electives during years 3 and 4 and then do a "dental residency"?

If that is the case, I think it is a great idea. There are probably a lot of people who are interested in both medicine and dentistry but feel like a dental degree is just too restrictive. What if I go to dental school and find I don't like it after all? What will I do? But a medical degree opens the door to a greater variety of career paths.

A program like I described would let you get a little taste of everything before you had to commit yourself to anything. You know, I might even consider deferring dental school for a year if this were the case.

 

[Plinko]

Yah-E

I would say that the idea of a DO/DMD program itself is not all that odd. I suppose it was coming sooner or later. It is the way that you say NOVA has set it up that is somewhat perplexing. As you stated, the MD degree is typically earned while the DDS grads go and do the final two years of medical school on top of their regrular OMS residency curriculum. In theory getting the extra letters after one's name allows OMS docs to do more plastics/medically oriented procedures. Wheter or not they use it is a matter of opinion. My Dad is an oral surgeon (DDS) and has partners in his practice with the dual degree. He claims the MD is just a "paper degree" in that most DDS/MD OMS docs don't use the MD aspect of their training. He is only a DDS and does all the same procedures the MD/DDS guys in his office do--e.g. osteotomy saggitial splits, tumor excisions, etc. My understanding from what you wrote is that NOVA is simply taking the two extra years of the MD/DDS residency program and inserting them earlier into the curriculum. This seems illogical to me, as it necessarily confines the DO student to choose OMS prior to starting professional school. A smarter plan would be for NOVA to include the final two years of dental school in a residency program that allowed the graduating DO student to choose OMS at the end of their medical education rather than at the beginning of it.

From my experience with OMS, the whole idea of a dual degree seems to be window dressing. Perhaps if someone wanted to do nose jobs and more radical plastic surgery and wanted additional board certification then I suppose it would make sense. But most OMS docs love their wisdom teeth extractions. They are their bread and butter, and make up a significant portion of their pay load. It is simply not as cost effective as it used to be for the OMS docs to leave their office and go into the OR to do the more medically oriented procedures because of the nutty policies laid down by the HMOs. My Dad has told me of several patients with significant gaps in their bites (to the point of functional loss of mastication) where still the HMOs would not cover a mandibular reconstructive surgery because they said it was strictly cosmetic in nature. That should make the idea of adding the extra two years in the classroom even less appealing.

 

[cusp of carabelli]

does that mean nova is gonna basically have 2 dental schools?

 

[Supernumerary]

I agree that there is very little difference between DMD/MD and just plain DMD oral surgeons, but I don't think this has anything to do with oral surgery. This is what it makes it so novel. From the way I understand it, it's basically like offering dentistry as a specialty choice for the DO student.

Can you find out more about the program length and structure Yah-E? Thanks.

 

[Yah-E]

Well, not two dental schools per se, but two different routes to earn a DMD degree at Nova:

1) traditional way applying directly to dental school (Nova Dental)
2) get accepted to the DO/DMD dual degree program (Nova DO)

Not much is known about this new methodology/program yet. I just read it in the latest NSUCOM's newsletter today, commented by the Dean of the DO school. He stated "next year", I'd assume it's for 2004-2005 academic year. As soon as I have more detailed info, I'll be sure to fill you guys in.

I also wonder how many DO students would be interested in this new route offered by their college?

 

[cusp of carabelli]

how long is this program going to be?.....is it going to be 10 years like the traditional dmd/dds to md training or is it going to be shorter?...

 

[DrQuinn]

As a recent graduation of the DO program at NSUCOM, I believe the DO/DMD program was created for a way to make money...

Q, DO

 

[Yah-E]

http://medicine.nova.edu/forms/COM-Outlook.pdf

Scroll to page 40 of this PDF file, Dean's Message and read it for yourselves!

QuinnNSU, is that your lady or you below your SDN name? Congrats on your recent graduation and accomplishments!

 

[ameier14]

Yah-E,

I can't believe that too many DO students will choose the dual degree. What I CAN believe is that pre-dents who want a sure, fast-track pathway to oral/maxiliofacial surgery will be very interested. If NOVA is catering to the pre-dents, then yes, it will be a smart decision. If, however, they think that there is enough interest within the current DO student body to make a program out of it, I believe they are sadly mistaken.

You make it sound like DO's are trying to get out of medicine to get into dentistry. I think you would find far more dental students trying to get into medicine (the traditional MD/DDS) than vice versa simply because medicine broadens their scope of practice. Why would a DO want to limit his or hers in dentistry? They should just go to dental school.

P.S. The Bears suck.

...kidding

 

[Plinko]

Supernumeray

If you are right about this program having nothing to do with OMS then it is certainly novel. In my opinion, it is also certainly illogical. If this is simply a pathway for a DO student to become a dentist then there is little rhyme or reason to why anybody would think up such a scheme. If a person wants to be a dentist, orthodontist, periodontist, etc. then they should figure out well in advance of enrolling in DO school that they should be applying to dental school. If this turns out to be the case then it will be setting a trend to have dual degree programs such as DC/MD, DDS/DC, DPM/DDS, DO/DPM etc. with hybridization of career paths along all lines. It's simple: if you want to be a DO then go to DO school, if you want to a chiropractor go to chriopractic school, podiatry....podiartry school. Integrating inherently different healthcare specialties serves very little purpose if done in this fashion. I think it is safe to say that DO and MD students have plenty of specialty options to choose from. Adding dentistry into the mix seems pretty foolish. Dental students already have a relatively short of list of specialties to choose from. There is no need for people outside of dentistry to compete for and eventually take away from their choice of residency programs. Dental students made the choice to go into dentistry at the appropriate time in their lives and no one should be able to come in last minute and take a residency spot away from them.

 

[ameier14]

Amen.

 

[Yah-E]

Plinko and Ameier:

You both are now on the same page as I am. I have no idea why any DO school would propose this dual degree program, unless as Quinn said, another way to lure tuition money from students!

Even at that, I doubt that many DO students would jump on the DMD/DO bandwagon!

I knew how I felt about it, but I just wanted to see how you guys feel about it, afterall, you guys are DO students!

 

[jdmd]

as a 4th year dental student i agree with plinko. its seems totally illogical. why ewould a DO or md ever want a dmd degree. contrary to popular belief, most dmd students are not there by default, but there because they chose dentistry. dentistry and medicine could not me more diffrent. adding a DO to a DMD would be like adding corned beef to my sexual exploits -- it just does not make sense.

 

[Supernumerary]

As for it being a money-making scheme... it's a private university; everything they do is a money making scheme. That said, I don't think it's such a bad idea.

Surely it can't cost the school any extra money. And they probably have a few dental school spots unfulfilled. (Don't most dental schools have a certain amount of attrition in the first couple years?) The school gets their empty spots filled and someone gets a unique education.

Obviously it's not going to be a widely popular option; I doubt that is what was in mind. But it's still a neat idea.

 

[MOZ D.O.]

i recently read about the combined program as well. i believe the intent of it is aimed at those persons who are interested in practicing primary care in rural areas to also allow them to practice general dentistry since there is such a huge shortage of dentists and physicians in these areas. i don't really know if it is for financial reasons but if it is i think it's a good one. i've also heard that they are working on getting a combined do/jd program started but i think scheduling conflicts have hindered its progress.

MOZ D.O.

 

[Supernumerary]

I think DDS/MD dual degrees would be a pretty legitimate option, as would be DPM/MD degrees. (Actually, haven't MDs just about swallowed up most aspects of podiatry besides things like nail trimming and fungus removal - you know... the icky, menial parts?)

Medicine and dentistry aren't so different. No more different than say, plastic surgery and anesthesiology. There's a lot of stuff that is the same, but still a lot that's different. Hence, the additional training required before practicing in a particular specialty. And it wouldn't be med students competing for dental specialties; it would be other dentists who also happen to have medical degree. This is no more threat than the new dental schools opening in AZ and NV this year, and no one seems to be too upset about those.

If you are right about this program having nothing to do with OMS then it is certainly novel. In my opinion, it is also certainly illogical. If this is simply a pathway for a DO student to become a dentist then there is little rhyme or reason to why anybody would think up such a scheme. If a person wants to be a dentist, orthodontist, periodontist, etc. then they should figure out well in advance of enrolling in DO school that they should be applying to dental school. If this turns out to be the case then it will be setting a trend to have dual degree programs such as DC/MD, DDS/DC, DPM/DDS, DO/DPM etc. with hybridization of career paths along all lines. It's simple: if you want to be a DO then go to DO school, if you want to a chiropractor go to chriopractic school, podiatry....podiartry school. Integrating inherently different healthcare specialties serves very little purpose if done in this fashion. I think it is safe to say that DO and MD students have plenty of specialty options to choose from. Adding dentistry into the mix seems pretty foolish. Dental students already have a relatively short of list of specialties to choose from. There is no need for people outside of dentistry to compete for and eventually take away from their choice of residency programs. Dental students made the choice to go into dentistry at the appropriate time in their lives and no one should be able to come in last minute and take a residency spot away from them.

 

[Supernumerary]

i recently read about the combined program as well. i believe the intent of it is aimed at those persons who are interested in practicing primary care in rural areas to also allow them to practice general dentistry since there is such a huge shortage of dentists and physicians in these areas.

Haha. I just can't stop posting on this thread. That's a neat cocept, too MOZ. My wife and I both come from a little valley with about 800 people. It's not big enough to support a physician or dentist full time. There are two physicians who each come to a little clinic once a week - so it's open 2 days a week. The nearest dentist is about 50-60 miles away.

Something like this could be a way for us to live close to our families. We had pretty much accepted the fact that we could never live closer than an hour or two away. But now, hmmmm....

Would the costs of running both types of practice be too prohibitive, though? I'm not looking to make a ton of money, but it seems like it would be pretty expensive. Could you be proficient at both medicine and dentistry? Seems like a lot to have on your plate.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Podiatry has nearly fallen off the face of the planet

I think the dual degree option would be beneficial if, as was mentioned in a prior post, the physican/dentist desires to provide a more complete method of health care to a population that is drastically underserved.

If two maps of the US were made, one highlighting areas of physican shortage/needs, and the other highlighting areas of oral health care shortage/needs, I believe that the two maps would overlap by 80-90% when layed on top of each other.

This could be a fantastic way to truly serve people who need access to healthcare.

Nobody is making a stink about the Nevada and Arizona schools, because those states have a drastic shortage of dentists, and because oral health is poor, in general, throughout the US.

 

[ameier14]

Moz and Supernerary- What in the heck are you two smoking?

Moz - Did you read what plinko just wrote? What is the purpose of a DO going into dentistry? He/she should have gone into dentistry in the first place. And you mean to tell me that once a NOVA DO does his 2 years in the dental program, he then has to apply again to a medical residency in FP, just so he can practice both trades. And you want to go to such an individual? Someone who can't remember what he studied last because it has been so long since his last residency. Come on.

Super - First off, I don't follow your argument. Medicine similar to dentistry, like plastics is to anesthesia? Have you ever watched or even met a plastic surgeon or an anesthesiologist? I have. They are entirely different and specifically talented in their trade. One wouldn't know squat about the others specialty. Hence, residency.

And it wouldn't be med students competing for dental specialties; it would be other dentists who also happen to have medical degree. This is no more threat than the new dental schools opening in AZ and NV this year, and no one seems to be too upset about those.

???... I wont even attempt.

Pre-dent= Dental Student= DDS or DMD
Pre-med= Medical Student= MD or DO

Once you start to mix and match like Plinko already explained, you defeat the purpose of specialty and expertise. I dont want an engineering graduate, with a part degree in music, and another in dentistry performing my CABG. Thanks anyway.

 

[Supernumerary]

Super - First off, I don't follow your argument. Medicine similar to dentistry, like plastics is to anesthesia? Have you ever watched or even met a plastic surgeon or an anesthesiologist? I have. They are entirely different and specifically talented in their trade. One wouldn't know s#$% about the others specialty. Hence, residency.

Exactly, they are pretty darn different; yet, both go to medical school. So why not throw in dentistry despite its differences?Anyhow, they probably didn't know that's what they wanted before starting med school. And even when pre-meds say they know, they often change their minds. But you are saying all pre-dents can just know that they want dental and only dental. There are at least a few who were just a little indecisive about their decision (me) and would love the chance to have a little more exposure (besides shadowing) before committing entirely to a specialty. Don't get wrong, I am excited about dental school, but being able to postpone the decision while still pursuing my education would sure be nice.

As for the doctor/dentist scenario, I am mostly just daydreaming here. And it would never be viable in a big city. But you don't realize just how rural this place I come from is; a lot of women have their children at home because the odds of making it to a hospital after labor starts are so slim. People don't want to drive an hour when they need a doc and the clinic doc won't be in for another couple days. Or when he doesn't feel like coming in for a few weeks. You're kinda stuck.

But the time commitment for that kind of education... well, that's a lot of school. It would take a committed individual. And that might not be me.

 

[stanMD]

So why not throw in dentistry despite its differences?

Or, just go to dental school.

Super - This whole discussion is based on the premise that medical and dental boards see fit to limit the range of practice of those who earn their degree. In the dental field there are specialist just like the medical field. One reason why these boards limit scope of practice is because once a physician (or dentist) tries to operate in an area where they haven't been highly trained, problems arise and lawsuits follow. A heart surgeon is a highly-skilled physician in his field of specialty but would probably have a hard time telling you about seasonal allergies.

Many dental students would like to do OMS and perform surgery with greater lattitude. If that is the case, then a DO (or MD) degree might provide a means. What I believe NOVA is doing is simply placing people with OMS aspirations on a fast-track and making a little bit more $ on the side. Atleast thats what I hope they are doing, otherwise, it makes no sense.

I empathize with you though about changing ones mind about specialty and maybe second-guessing things. But as a dental student, you still have plenty of dental specialties to choose from. You may even do the MD/DMD somewhere else after school. Maybe NOVA will accept or transfer current dental students. Good luck.

 

[jdmd]

the reason super has no idea how entirely diffrent dentistry and medicine are is BECAUSE HE HAS NOT STARTED DENTAL SCHOOL YET. once you do son, you will realize that medicine is about as similiar to dentistry as David Duke is to Al Sharpton. while the first two years of d-school and med-school are quite similiar, I assure you that where it ends. As someone who is now in their 4th year of dental school, I can personally attest that my knowledge and understanding of the most basic medical concepts is totally forotten. why? not because i'm stupid, but because "if you dont use it you lose it." While I still have a knowledge of the things I need to know ie. SBE, HTN, etc, I would'nt be able to Dx diabetes from from a hernia -- nor should I have to. thats the MD DO's job.

 

[Supernumerary]

the reason super has no idea how entirely diffrent dentistry and medicine are is BECAUSE HE HAS NOT STARTED DENTAL SCHOOL YET. once you do son, you will realize that medicine is about as similiar to dentistry as David Duke is to Al Sharpton. while the first two years of d-school and med-school are quite similiar, I assure you that where it ends.

OK, you've got me there. I can not profess anything but ignorance when it comes to what the practice of dentistry or medicine is really about. I've got a decent idea, but how do you really know until you've been immersed in it for a few years? That's where the beauty of a program like this would lie. You wouldn't have to make a decision until you had a little taste of everything.

Obviously, a lot of people wouldn't want to invest the extra time and money, but for those that want that... well, I just don't see the harm. It's not like the additional 2 yrs. of exposure to basic medicine could hurt.

 

[Plinko]

Wow this thread really took off. I go to study for a couple of hours and look what happens.

I thought I'd just throw it in that if the program in question is designed for family practice docs to also be board certified in general dentistry so as to serve the purpose of servicing the dental needs of the rural populations in the country then I suppose there is some inkling of causality behind it. Somehow though I doubt this is the case. If there is an area that is underserved by dentists then I think it would be more appropriate for that area to expand the number of students it's nearby dental school matriculates. Not add dual degree programs to its local medical schools' curriculums in order to create some race of pseudo dentists filling cavities between strep tests and PEs.

Also, we are talking about NOVA here, not some mythical medical school burrowed in the far reaches of Wyoming. Unless by some miracle the beautiful people of South Beach are at a loss for solid dental care I think one can safely say that this program is a money maker. Why take a student for four years of private school tuition when you can get him/her for six?

 

[jdmd]

plinko, great quote. i love that movie

 

[Plinko]

Thanks jdmd. I couldn't decide between that or my other favorite movie quote: "-What's the soup du jour? -The soup of the day. -Hmmm, that sounds good." I just had to go with the better movie.

 

[MOZ D.O.]

plinko i think you're forgetting a few things: many of nova's students are from central and northern florida which are areas that are tremendously underserved. it makes sense then that if these people want to go back to these areas and practice primary care adding dentistry to list of services would be extremely beneficial for them and their patients. also, mind you nova has the only dental school in south florida and that is relatively new. i think the only other dental school in the state is at u of florida so i'm really sure there is a huge supply of dentists to begin with. anyway i don't really know the structure of the program since they haven't released any details of the program but i think it's an attractive idea and should be successful.

MOZ D.O.

 

[Plinko]

MOZ

Like I said, I think there is some, albeit small, cause for it. But I still think that if there are areas in FLA that need more dentists then it would be a wiser course of action for Univ of FLA dental school to admit more students in order to service that need instead of adding dentistry to the list of services provided by primary care physicians in rural FLA. There are other measures that could be employed as well--e.g. incentive programs for starting dentists to set up their practices in the underserved areas, etc.

Also, I think the need for dentistry in larger cities is becoming less apparent. This is coming from my Dad,not myself as I would not know about such things. He seemsto believe that on a macroscopic scale the people in larger cities are taking better care of their teeth with every passing decade. This should make it more attractive for upstart dentists to want to spread out a bit more. My Dad's a DDS, btw.

When it comes down to it, I'm just more of a believer in certain healthcare fields taking care of their own list of healthcare responsibilities and not passing the ball off to outsiders. Its just a fundamental belief of mine, that is strictly opinion, which is not to say that you are not correct either. I simply happen to think that people who are trained to perform a concise list of healthcare services are better at providing those services than individuals who have a less focused training. There is simply too much to know, which is why you don't see too many examples of surgeons doing their own anesthesia.