Deteriorating social skills

[Arkangeloid]

I don't know how to phrase this without seeming like an dingus, but I am really just curious and not trying to be mean with this question: Do you think your genes should be propagated to the next generation?

Better my genes than Billy Bob the redneck's.

(No offense to the Billy Bobs of the world).

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[Arkangeloid]

And yeah, I'm curious why you think my genes shouldn't be propagated. I'm of sound mind and body, I'm smart enough to get to medical school, I'm tall, reasonably fit, etc. You can do a lot worse than one such as me.

 

[Wordead]

And yeah, I'm curious why you think my genes shouldn't be propagated. I'm of sound mind and body, I'm smart enough to get to medical school, I'm tall, reasonably fit, etc. You can do a lot worse than one such as me.

I didn't say your genes shouldn't be propagated. I was more curious whether someone with your low self esteem and self diagnosed aspergers would think their genes were worth propagating and why.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

1. I can totally believe that you're dumb enough to think women aren't harassed with degrading images since childhood; that they aren't subjected to magazines which consistently make males the focus of all their value. If that's not a metaphorical gun to the head...

2. And interesting that you and your weightlifting buddy have no problem understanding the henpecked male example...you know, since he's got a gun to his head, right?

1. Could be the wear-and-tear from studying so much, but my brain still doesn't get it. What are these magazines that harass beautiful women into suffering with old, fat men? I remember going out to get pizza with 4 female friends who happened to be quite beautiful and we ended up discussing about men. They told me something that really surprised me: they can get the handsome, jacked guys, but for relationship material, they settle for the average to slightly above average guy. They told me they do this because if a guy is too good-looking, the woman will look like the uglier one of the couple. My mind was blown. Is this concept similar to what you were talking about?

2. The henpecked man exists because he is desperate and clings onto the relationship for however many reasons. Oftentimes, I would argue that he holds the gun to his own head. Divorce and keeping a family together are whole other beasts though.

 

[Anastomoses]

1. Could be the wear-and-tear from studying so much, but my brain still doesn't get it. What are these magazines that harass beautiful women into suffering with old, fat men? I remember going out to get pizza with 4 female friends who happened to be quite beautiful and we ended up discussing about men. They told me something that really surprised me: they can get the handsome, jacked guys, but for relationship material, they settle for the average to slightly above average guy. They told me they do this because if a guy is too good-looking, the woman will look like the uglier one of the couple. My mind was blown. Is this concept similar to what you were talking about?

Yes. Exactly that. I've actually mentioned your point 1 a few times on these boards even. It disgusts me that many girls even in Western nations are plagued with this sort of backward ass thinking.

1. Every magazine aimed at pre-teen girls, teen girls, young adult females and adult females until maybe their 50's+ sends several clear points(via images, articles, phrasing, tv shows + movies featuring beautiful women with pot-bellied balding men, mainstream media's harassment/objectification of powerful/political women) that build on the original foundation. Given the average person can barely analyze their own anus and that this inculcation is rarely rivaled in society...it's mind-blowing that anyone can reject it. Repetitive concepts are as follows:

*Female worth is intrinsically tied to her "physical assets".
*Be pretty (scarier is - be sexy) or you're not fit for a happy princess ending (which of course should be your ultimate goal...because what else is there?)
*Be thin. You are thin? No, not Kate Moss, Hannah Hardy, Victoria Beckham thin. Get on it, girl.
*Brains + success are lovely, but they won't make you happy.
*Know what your boyfriend wants! (no, not what you want...no, not what he wants so you can trick him into bed to use him for sex or money a la Maxim)
*You want romance? Use your body to get it!
*Your life will only be improved if you buy tighter, more expensive clothing and appear as a passive emaciated ****doll. Honest! It will! If you don't look like this...you're really not a girl, you're a heathen.
*Why don't you own at least 20 make-up products (you know, for the product that goes under the product that goes on smoother under the other product -- wait what?? Yeah, it deserves a few courses of its own)?

For the perfectionists among us - this is a hardcore disaster. And the closer you are to being able to achieve it, the more easily you adopt the system (like your beautiful friends). And society's beauty cult (with many women blindly at the helm) perpetuates itself. I was with a friend at the mall in undergrad (we're both under 22) who exclaimed in surprise "You don't use foundation or powder? Then what do you do for coverage!" Uh, omg! That stuck with me like Sikkunt's repugnant "walk of shame" previously quoted for posterity.
Now I'm not gonna blame guys for gravitating to the prettiest, thinner, more stylish girl at parties but it's painfully reaffirming of the magazines for the female psyche. I empathize because I gravitate to beautiful boys (my mother has almost identical tastes so I suspect genetics) but what blows my mind is how girls are trained (I can attest to being one at one point) to exchange what they are attracted to (or to avoid it altogether as from your example of your female friends) and to pursue their holy grail of short-term attention.

Insecurities much? This validation by way of being looked at, wanted...lusted after...is a myth. We are sold that as our "power" as well as our "shame". I didn't figure out until maybe 16 that..."oh wait...I'm confused. How is it power that he/they want to put his penis in you for a hot minute?" That's a fun dawning reality that hasn't really hit a few female minds yet. Scarier are the girls who can't pull that attention but so desperately wish they could. Sells less magazines to open their eyes? Maybe the female psyche is intrinsically masochistic? I've no clear answers on this.

Wasn't meant to be a diatribe - mostly hoping to help you understand what I'd call a disease. When you sat with your female friends you probably thought "wow, girls are different". Sure. Their libidos might be less intensely motivated but the brainwashed goal of "attention-whoring" and "security seeking by way of settling" is out of control. I know girls who will fatten up their guys to make him undesirable to others. Uh, if he's undesirable...why do you want him anyway? Oh...because nothing...NOTHING could be worse for them than being called "uglier than the guy she's with". Not me. Gimme Armand Hammer and you can call me the ugliest bitch that ever walked the earth.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I didn't say your genes shouldn't be propagated. I was more curious whether someone with your low self esteem and self diagnosed aspergers would think their genes were worth propagating and why.

Well, the way I see it, I need to propagate my genes and carry on the family line. Otherwise, I kinda wonder why I'm even here, let alone why I'm throwing away my time to learn about cardiac physiology.

I'm not sippin haterade, or dissing anyone (like Winged Scapula I guess) who has a different view on the purpose of his/her life. But for me, I agree with the quote that "children are the messages we leave to a future we will not see." And I want to make sure my message is badass.

 

[touchpause13]

The whole thing is a sick joke. You get these ideas in your head that if you were only this thin, had this type of hair, wore this makeup, that it will make you happy. It won't.

Trust me, I've had the proportions of a straight size model. I wasn't happy. I hated my body. I've always hated it and it doesn't matter what size I am, but I don't think I've ever felt as worthless as I did when I was starving myself to get into a size 2 jean, cursing the gods that my butt was too big for a size 0. It's all a lie. Even if you have the perfect body it's a lie.

 

[xffan624]

Agreed. It seems that you've never been paid a compliment, since you clearly don't know what one is.

Like I said, I'm done with this.

Well, the way I see it, I need to propagate my genes and carry on the family line. Otherwise, I kinda wonder why I'm even here, let alone why I'm throwing away my time to learn about cardiac physiology.

I'm not sippin haterade, or dissing anyone (like Winged Scapula I guess) who has a different view on the purpose of his/her life. But for me, I agree with the quote that "children are the messages we leave to a future we will not see." And I want to make sure my message is badass.

If your only focus in life is on finding a wife to propagate your genes, then I can pretty much guarantee it won't be.

 

[Arkangeloid]

If your only focus in life is on finding a wife to propagate your genes, then I can pretty much guarantee it won't be.

In any case, all I need to do is get out of medical school alive. My parents will handle the rest.

 

[Anastomoses]

The whole thing is a sick joke. You get these ideas in your head that if you were only this thin, had this type of hair, wore this makeup, that it will make you happy. It won't.

Trust me, I've had the proportions of a straight size model. I wasn't happy. I hated my body. I've always hated it and it doesn't matter what size I am, but I don't think I've ever felt as worthless as I did when I was starving myself to get into a size 2 jean, cursing the gods that my butt was too big for a size 0. It's all a lie. Even if you have the perfect body it's a lie.

Yuuup. In fact, the closer you are to the so called goal of "female perfection" the bigger price you pay. They've done studies showing that women who were judged on the higher end of beauty by surveyed participants show significantly more psychological issues and obsession regarding their own looks/body dysmorphia, etc.

Black girls/women, who at one time felt women in the media did not represent them whatsoever, were actually almost impervious to body image garbage and felt happier with their bodies than Caucasian girls.

There's also a great Yale study that examined girls in Polynesia (I think it was) pre-Western television and post. It examined sky-rocketing eating disorder rates correlated to hours of Western media consumed. It holds true to my experience, despite all the articles that claim "media is not responsible for the female psyche or increase in EDs".

 

[Arkangeloid]

Yuuup. In fact, the closer you are to the so called goal of "female perfection" the bigger price you pay. They've done studies showing that women who were judged on the higher end of beauty by surveyed participants show significantly more psychological issues and obsession regarding their own looks/body dysmorphia, etc.

Black girls/women, who at one time felt women in the media did not represent them whatsoever, were actually almost impervious to body image garbage and felt happier with their bodies than Caucasian girls.

There's also a great Yale study that examined girls in Polynesia (I think it was) pre-Western television and post. It examined sky-rocketing eating disorder rates correlated to hours of Western media consumed. It holds true to my experience, despite all the articles that claim "media is not responsible for the female psyche or increase in EDs".

Let's not forget about the skyrocketing incidence of eating disorders in men, caused by media portrayals of steroid-enhanced male actors.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Yuuup. In fact, the closer you are to the so called goal of "female perfection" the bigger price you pay. They've done studies showing that women who were judged on the higher end of beauty by surveyed participants show significantly more psychological issues and obsession regarding their own looks/body dysmorphia, etc.

I think this is true in other contexts too. In my med school, the people who are most neurotic about their grades are the people near the top, jockeying for position in the 1st quartile. The people in the 3rd and 4th quartiles don't seem to care too much.

 

[Anastomoses]

Let's not forget about the skyrocketing incidence of eating disorders in men, caused by media portrayals of steroid-enhanced male actors.

Absolutely. Boys dipping into steroids is definitely an example of more casualties. In fact, I'm a little puzzled why our society hasn't abandoned mandatory Calculus in high school and instead instituted some sort of "life examination/prep" class instead. I've only ever seen classes teaching real analysis of information in GT or AP classes. It could include Media Examination, Personal values reflection, and popular pitfalls of romantic relationships, with some basic clinical medical education. A person should know they have lymph nodes and which area of the body the kidneys can be found.

 

[touchpause13]

Yeah Ark. But it's not close to the same level of incidence. I did my psych shadowing at an ED clinic, and saw 1 dude for every 20 women. I'm not saying it's not a problem, but would it really kill ya to not shut down the conversation? That's something that drives me nuts on these forums. Guys seems unable to sit back and listen to women talk about their experiences without jumping in and saying men have it bad too.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Absolutely. Boys dipping into steroids is definitely an example of more casualties. In fact, I'm a little puzzled why our society hasn't abandoned mandatory Calculus in high school and instead instituted some sort of "life examination/prep" class instead. I've only ever seen classes teaching real analysis of information in GT or AP classes. It could include Media Examination, Personal values reflection, and popular pitfalls of romantic relationships, with some basic clinical medical education. A person should know they have lymph nodes and which area of the body the kidneys can be found.

Actually, I still don't know exactly where the kidneys are, tbh.

Disagree about Calculus though, it's a very useful thing to know. I've had to use it several times in medical school, actually.

 

[fancymylotus]

hay @touchpause13 @Anastomoses

 

[fancymylotus]

what is going on in here

 

[punkedoutriffs]

Well, the way I see it, I need to propagate my genes and carry on the family line. Otherwise, I kinda wonder why I'm even here, let alone why I'm throwing away my time to learn about cardiac physiology.

I'm not sippin haterade, or dissing anyone (like Winged Scapula I guess) who has a different view on the purpose of his/her life. But for me, I agree with the quote that "children are the messages we leave to a future we will not see." And I want to make sure my message is badass.

Wait so let me get this straight. You are only in medical school so that the unique sequence of nucleic acids that reside in your germ cells can then combine with another unique set of nucleic acids in order to produce another (1 of ~9 billion probably by the time it happens) vehicle/carrier of said nucleic acids. Rinse repeat? I don't know, when I first read about evolutionary biology and how all of our impulses/motivations/desires catered to being better equipped to propagate a set of chemical structures, my first instinct as a conscious, sentient being was to rebel against such an impersonal, hollow destiny, not to acquiesce to it, much less wear it like a blue ribbon.

What do I care that someone 3 generations down the line with 1/8 of my genetic code works as a manager at Aflac and drives a 2107 Chevy Tahoe Hovercraft and likes to dance to EDM on weekends? That person has nothing to do with me. He's a stranger. If the way I lead my life HAPPENS to result in his existence, whatever, I don't care. But I will not even spend a SECOND of my life to observe even the most MINUSCULE amount of conscious consideration for him.

 

[Anastomoses]

Yeah Ark. But it's not close to the same level of incidence. I did my psych shadowing at an ED clinic, and saw 1 dude for every 20 women. I'm not saying it's not a problem, but would it really kill ya to not shut down the conversation? That's something that drives me nuts on these forums. Guys seems unable to sit back and listen to women talk about their experiences without jumping in and saying men have it bad too.

Actually I completely understand why many (not all) guys have trouble relating. It's a set-up from go. In high school I wrote almost all papers with a male protagonist and was praised for "excellently capturing the male psyche". Why? Eh, I just couldn't really fathom a thoughtful introspective analytical female character to be believable. They can't relate to us - but their experiences we're forced by media, classical literature, historical events to relate with. The male experience is what most of life is made up of. Girls, despite the numbers, are a subgroup. We're the Help

Actually, I still don't know exactly where the kidneys are, tbh.

Disagree about Calculus though, it's a very useful thing to know. I've had to use it several times in medical school, actually.

You have completed anatomy and are doing remedial anatomy and you don't know where the kidneys are? Tell me you aren't serious.

I haven't done one calculus problem in med school. You do know the difference between algebra and calculus, right?

 

[punkedoutriffs]

Yes. Exactly that. I've actually mentioned your point 1 a few times on these boards even. It disgusts me that many girls even in Western nations are plagued with this sort of backward ass thinking.

1. Every magazine aimed at pre-teen girls, teen girls, young adult females and adult females until maybe their 50's+ sends several clear points(via images, articles, phrasing, tv shows + movies featuring beautiful women with pot-bellied balding men, mainstream media's harassment/objectification of powerful/political women) that build on the original foundation. Given the average person can barely analyze their own anus and that this inculcation is rarely rivaled in society...it's mind-blowing that anyone can reject it. Repetitive concepts are as follows:

*Female worth is intrinsically tied to her "physical assets".
*Be pretty (scarier is - be sexy) or you're not fit for a happy princess ending (which of course should be your ultimate goal...because what else is there?)
*Be thin. You are thin? No, not Kate Moss, Hannah Hardy, Victoria Beckham thin. Get on it, girl.
*Brains + success are lovely, but they won't make you happy.
*Know what your boyfriend wants! (no, not what you want...no, not what he wants so you can trick him into bed to use him for sex or money a la Maxim)
*You want romance? Use your body to get it!
*Your life will only be improved if you buy tighter, more expensive clothing and appear as a passive emaciated ****doll. Honest! It will! If you don't look like this...you're really not a girl, you're a heathen.
*Why don't you own at least 20 make-up products (you know, for the product that goes under the product that goes on smoother under the other product -- wait what?? Yeah, it deserves a few courses of its own)?

For the perfectionists among us - this is a hardcore disaster. And the closer you are to being able to achieve it, the more easily you adopt the system (like your beautiful friends). And society's beauty cult (with many women blindly at the helm) perpetuates itself. I was with a friend at the mall in undergrad (we're both under 22) who exclaimed in surprise "You don't use foundation or powder? Then what do you do for coverage!" Uh, omg! That stuck with me like Sikkunt's repugnant "walk of shame" previously quoted for posterity.
Now I'm not gonna blame guys for gravitating to the prettiest, thinner, more stylish girl at parties but it's painfully reaffirming of the magazines for the female psyche. I empathize because I gravitate to beautiful boys (my mother has almost identical tastes so I suspect genetics) but what blows my mind is how girls are trained (I can attest to being one at one point) to exchange what they are attracted to (or to avoid it altogether as from your example of your female friends) and to pursue their holy grail of short-term attention.

Insecurities much? This validation by way of being looked at, wanted...lusted after...is a myth. We are sold that as our "power" as well as our "shame". I didn't figure out until maybe 16 that..."oh wait...I'm confused. How is it power that he/they want to put his penis in you for a hot minute?" That's a fun dawning reality that hasn't really hit a few female minds yet. Scarier are the girls who can't pull that attention but so desperately wish they could. Sells less magazines to open their eyes? Maybe the female psyche is intrinsically masochistic? I've no clear answers on this.

Wasn't meant to be a diatribe - mostly hoping to help you understand what I'd call a disease. When you sat with your female friends you probably thought "wow, girls are different". Sure. Their libidos might be less intensely motivated but the brainwashed goal of "attention-whoring" and "security seeking by way of settling" is out of control. I know girls who will fatten up their guys to make him undesirable to others. Uh, if he's undesirable...why do you want him anyway? Oh...because nothing...NOTHING could be worse for them than being called "uglier than the guy she's with". Not me. Gimme Armand Hammer and you can call me the ugliest bitch that ever walked the earth.

When did you start talking so much sense? I must have missed your transition from caterpie to butterfree sometime in the last 6 months.

 

[Anastomoses]

When did you start talking so much sense? I must have missed your transition from caterpie to butterfree sometime in the last 6 months.

hah! I'm still the same crazy. stay tuned.

 

[Arkangeloid]

You have completed anatomy and are doing remedial anatomy and you don't know where the kidneys are? Tell me you aren't serious.

I haven't done one calculus problem in med school. You do know the difference between algebra and calculus, right?

Nope, I'm serious. I have a vague idea of where they are (the tummy place), but not much beyond that. I won't be remediating the Abdomen though, only Head + Neck.


As for calculus, I'm surprised you haven't seen it so far. One example is the equation for venous compliance, which is

dCv = dV/dCVP

It also came up a few times in Pharm IIRC.

 

[touchpause13]

I've been hit enough in the kidneys to know exactly where they are lol. So painful

 

[Nidor]

.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Actually I completely understand why many (not all) guys have trouble relating. It's a set-up from go. In high school I wrote almost all papers with a male protagonist and was praised for "excellently capturing the male psyche". Why? Eh, I just couldn't really fathom a thoughtful introspective analytical female character to be believable. They can't relate to us - but their experiences we're forced by media, classical literature, historical events to relate with. The male experience is what most of life is made up of. Girls, despite the numbers, are a subgroup. We're the Help
You have completed anatomy and are doing remedial anatomy and you don't know where the kidneys are? Tell me you aren't serious.

I haven't done one calculus problem in med school. You do know the difference between algebra and calculus, right?

I apologize for the following wall of text. I am going to poorly express the theories of Deborah Tannen, an anthropologist, to explain why we don't let you two talk about hardships of being a woman.

Here's a summary of what she claims (it's not a perfect description but it's interesting). It's soft science, so take from it what you will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_theory

My crappy summary:
Guy basic goal in conversation: prove I'm worth listening to.

In general, when a "typical" guy is sitting in a circle of people having a conversation, he tries to find a way to be part of the conversation. The guy who talks the most "wins". If everyone talks, no one wins. If a few people talk more, and are more interesting, they "win" while the others "lose." Hence why when you have a public conversation about something we don't experience (we can't win this one), we attempt to shift it to something we know (and can "win").

There is more to it though: guys get annoyed when "weak" speakers talk a lot. In my experience at least (many older brothers), there is a certain expected pecking order and hierarchy. Group meetings should be "won" by the most important/strongest speaker, so we expect that person to talk a lot. In civilized society, we won't beat someone (brothers will though) for ignoring the hierarchy, but we will get annoyed. The ranking isn't necessarily physical strength, so much as perceived worth in a given situation. E.g. If a huge ED tech was trying to talk when a tiny ED physician was around, I'd be annoyed as **** because the ED physician "should" be talking.

When a guy is with a tiny group of people he trusts, this tends to change. The fact that the guy trusts that group of people means he doesn't have to go for that "one-up" crap. So when a guy is hanging out with a girlfriend, who he obviously trusts, he is happy to be relatively quiet (she knows he's worthwhile, no need to talk). So his instinct is to keep the day under wraps, and simply hang out with the girlfriend and relax.

Girl basic goal in conversation (my understanding of this is poor): share personal experience and network based on similarities.

Girls in a group tend to try to make sure everyone gets an equal opportunity to share, and so meetings tend to be egalitarian. If everyone manages to communicate effectively, all people have won. If one person dominates the conversation, no one has really gained anything. So when we interrupt you two trying to have your say, it's annoying to you. We had our say, why can't we let you have yours? Everyone is losing when we interrupt you (my perception of the problem, not necessarily what you actually think).

Girl in a tiny group (like a romantic relationship) tells more stories and shares more to show what they have in common. They have the tightest network and relationship, can share the most and be stronger for it. When a girl feels like she knows all of a guys experiences/feelings, she feels they have a strong/good connection. Anything that undermines this makes them feel like they're unimportant (once again, disclaimer that I understand this is my perception, not reality).

Story time for application/amusement:

Girl in a relationship after long day with her boyfriend : this is the ultimate time to share, with the person you should have the most in common with (and who should trust and want to talk to most). So you talk about day, tell how you feel, etc.

Guy does not reciprocate (thinking the whole time "why the hell is she doing this, she knows I care about her and think she's awesome"). I'm with person I trust. Why should I talk? "my day was good."

Girl (thinking "that's it? I shared all this. He should share back! Does he not care? Does he really have nothing to say?")

Later, go over to friends house. Cue guy feeling need to do one up stuff in group. Guy tells funny story about his boss being a jerk that day. Girlfriend is annoyed. He should have shared that with her, because she is closer to him than them. Wtf is wrong with him?

Guy doesn't get it. He told a funny story, the group liked it. He won. Why is the girl mad? Why didn't she tell that story about the cool stuff at work to the group? She lost. Stupid girl.

Angry silence in car on ride home.

Fin.

So that's why we interrupt you, according to da batman.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Wait so let me get this straight. You are only in medical school so that the unique sequence of nucleic acids that reside in your germ cells can then combine with another unique set of nucleic acids in order to produce another (1 of ~9 billion probably by the time it happens) vehicle/carrier of said nucleic acids. Rinse repeat? I don't know, when I first read about evolutionary biology and how all of our impulses/motivations/desires catered to being better equipped to propagate a set of chemical structures, my first instinct as a conscious, sentient being was to rebel against such an impersonal, hollow destiny, not to acquiesce to it, much less wear it like a blue ribbon.

What do I care that someone 3 generations down the line with 1/8 of my genetic code works as a manager at Aflac and drives a 2107 Chevy Tahoe Hovercraft and likes to dance to EDM on weekends? That person has nothing to do with me. He's a stranger. If the way I lead my life HAPPENS to result in his existence, whatever, I don't care. But I will not even spend a SECOND of my life to observe even the most MINUSCULE amount of conscious consideration for him.

I'm not judging you, but to me that's kind of a distorted/strange perception.

My take on it is that I've had a good life, enjoyed myself a lot. That's a result of the things I was taught and the genes I inherited, along with the situation I experienced. I want for some one else to get to have that, to feel the way I've felt, live as I have lived. So I want to have kids.

No, they won't be my clones. No, I won't live forever through them. No, the world probably doesn't need more people. But they'll take a part of me and a part of someone I love and get to experience life. That's justification enough for me, whether it's logical or not.

So I am going to dedicate a substantial part of my life to recreating the circumstances which made my great life possible. The simplest way to control for the genetic part is to ensure that I choose a good mate, and pass on part of myself (I like me, other people damn well will too).

Simplified version of my justification, but it grabs the essentials.

I really don't give a damn whether that's what I am "supposed to do" or if I am a "slave to my genes." That's not important to me. It's your life, but to me it seems like "rebellion" is a poor reason to give up kids. But it's a subjective judgement, and I hope whatever you choose works out for you.

Good luck!

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Nope, I'm serious. I have a vague idea of where they are (the tummy place), but not much beyond that. I won't be remediating the Abdomen though, only Head + Neck.


As for calculus, I'm surprised you haven't seen it so far. One example is the equation for venous compliance, which is

dCv = dV/dCVP

It also came up a few times in Pharm IIRC.

You should probably get a grip on that one, even if you're not required to at the moment. Otherwise you're going to get pretty damn embarrassed later (I could see dermatomes coming up during a pimp... if you didn't know where a kidney was at that point, have fun).

 

[alpinism]

I'm just gonna pop in here to leave this - I thought moving on up from pre-allo to allo would be a privilege...

No kidding...

You guys sound like a bunch of naive, emotionally immature college freshmen who are sitting through their first sociology class.

Yes, society as a whole tends to place more value on superficial things like looks and money above all else.

This is nothing new or exciting.

Life isn't always fair. Who cares what other people think of you? Just be yourself.

 

[Serous Demilune]

No kidding...

You guys sound like a bunch of naive, emotionally immature college freshmen who are sitting through their first sociology class.

Yes, society as a whole tends to place more value on superficial things like looks and money above all else.

This is nothing new or exciting.

Life isn't always fair. Who cares what other people think of you? Just be yourself.

Are you in med school? In the preclinical years, your classmates and textbooks become your life. What people think of you matters a lot more than in the real world, rational or not.

 

[Serous Demilune]

You should probably get a grip on that one, even if you're not required to at the moment. Otherwise you're going to get pretty damn embarrassed later (I could see dermatomes coming up during a pimp... if you didn't know where a kidney was at that point, have fun).

Not sure what kidneys have to do with dermatomes, as they aren't on the skin and have autonomic innervation.

 

[touchpause13]

Actually I completely understand why many (not all) guys have trouble relating. It's a set-up from go. In high school I wrote almost all papers with a male protagonist and was praised for "excellently capturing the male psyche". Why? Eh, I just couldn't really fathom a thoughtful introspective analytical female character to be believable. They can't relate to us - but their experiences we're forced by media, classical literature, historical events to relate with. The male experience is what most of life is made up of. Girls, despite the numbers, are a subgroup. We're the Help

This jives with my personal experiences. I took a creative writing course in college. The men in the class all wrote male protagonists. The few who had female characters wrote them just horribly, they were just stereotypes, not even close to as fleshed out the male characters were. The women were 50/50 male to female main characters, and their skill was the same for male and female characters. Men just aren't forced to see female experiences the same way women are forced to see mens. This may sound stupid but I was amazed the first time I saw the movie Bridesmaids because it had female characters who I could relate to. That talked like me, like people, not like stereotypes (aside from the funny fat friend thing but w/e)

A little offended by the whole "they can't relate to us" we might be a little slower but give us time.

Out of curiosity, (also because I want to go into peds and feel like this would be useful for adolescent medicine) what helped you ladies to overcome these culturally inspired insecurities?

Who said anything about overcoming them? I've gotten to the point where I can recognize them, name them, but I still hate my body. If anyone can figure out a way not to please let me know.

I apologize for the following wall of text. I am going to poorly express the theories of Deborah Tannen, an anthropologist, to explain why we don't let you two talk about hardships of being a woman.

Here's a summary of what she claims (it's not a perfect description but it's interesting). It's soft science, so take from it what you will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_theory

My crappy summary:
Guy basic goal in conversation: prove I'm worth listening to.

In general, when a "typical" guy is sitting in a circle of people having a conversation, he tries to find a way to be part of the conversation. The guy who talks the most "wins". If everyone talks, no one wins. If a few people talk more, and are more interesting, they "win" while the others "lose." Hence why when you have a public conversation about something we don't experience (we can't win this one), we attempt to shift it to something we know (and can "win").

There is more to it though: guys get annoyed when "weak" speakers talk a lot. In my experience at least (many older brothers), there is a certain expected pecking order and hierarchy. Group meetings should be "won" by the most important/strongest speaker, so we expect that person to talk a lot. In civilized society, we won't beat someone (brothers will though) for ignoring the hierarchy, but we will get annoyed. The ranking isn't necessarily physical strength, so much as perceived worth in a given situation. E.g. If a huge ED tech was trying to talk when a tiny ED physician was around, I'd be annoyed as **** because the ED physician "should" be talking.

When a guy is with a tiny group of people he trusts, this tends to change. The fact that the guy trusts that group of people means he doesn't have to go for that "one-up" crap. So when a guy is hanging out with a girlfriend, who he obviously trusts, he is happy to be relatively quiet (she knows he's worthwhile, no need to talk). So his instinct is to keep the day under wraps, and simply hang out with the girlfriend and relax.

Girl basic goal in conversation (my understanding of this is poor): share personal experience and network based on similarities.

Girls in a group tend to try to make sure everyone gets an equal opportunity to share, and so meetings tend to be egalitarian. If everyone manages to communicate effectively, all people have won. If one person dominates the conversation, no one has really gained anything. So when we interrupt you two trying to have your say, it's annoying to you. We had our say, why can't we let you have yours? Everyone is losing when we interrupt you (my perception of the problem, not necessarily what you actually think).

Girl in a tiny group (like a romantic relationship) tells more stories and shares more to show what they have in common. They have the tightest network and relationship, can share the most and be stronger for it. When a girl feels like she knows all of a guys experiences/feelings, she feels they have a strong/good connection. Anything that undermines this makes them feel like they're unimportant (once again, disclaimer that I understand this is my perception, not reality).

Story time for application/amusement:

Girl in a relationship after long day with her boyfriend : this is the ultimate time to share, with the person you should have the most in common with (and who should trust and want to talk to most). So you talk about day, tell how you feel, etc.

Guy does not reciprocate (thinking the whole time "why the hell is she doing this, she knows I care about her and think she's awesome"). I'm with person I trust. Why should I talk? "my day was good."

Girl (thinking "that's it? I shared all this. He should share back! Does he not care? Does he really have nothing to say?")

Later, go over to friends house. Cue guy feeling need to do one up stuff in group. Guy tells funny story about his boss being a jerk that day. Girlfriend is annoyed. He should have shared that with her, because she is closer to him than them. Wtf is wrong with him?

Guy doesn't get it. He told a funny story, the group liked it. He won. Why is the girl mad? Why didn't she tell that story about the cool stuff at work to the group? She lost. Stupid girl.

Angry silence in car on ride home.

Fin.

So that's why we interrupt you, according to da batman.

This is relatively accurate, I'm basing this off of a class I took about linguistics and gender. Another thing is that women are talk from a very young age to be quiet and not interrupt. We also tend to use hedging more often. This combined with a male's linguistic pattern usually ends up with the woman getting absolutely trampled in mixed company and especially if she's outnumbered. I've developed a rather masculine speech pattern which means I don't get interrupted as much as other women, but a lot of men find it off putting and bitchy. Because there's no winners here if you have a vagina.

But yeah, the objective seems to be very different when sharing personal stories. For myself and most women I believe it's about trying to gain greater insight, find common ground, communicate a problem, strengthen or form a relationship. When guys come in with the "not all men" or "patriarchy hurts menz too" it comes across as a silencing tacit. The conversation is shut down and I have no idea whether my words had any impact, whether or not I was understood. I was never validated and there was no sense of closure so I'm just left open thinking wtf, Ya'll don't give a damn what I have to say so fuk you guys. Make sense?

 

[Arkangeloid]

Wait so let me get this straight. You are only in medical school so that the unique sequence of nucleic acids that reside in your germ cells can then combine with another unique set of nucleic acids in order to produce another (1 of ~9 billion probably by the time it happens) vehicle/carrier of said nucleic acids. Rinse repeat? I don't know, when I first read about evolutionary biology and how all of our impulses/motivations/desires catered to being better equipped to propagate a set of chemical structures, my first instinct as a conscious, sentient being was to rebel against such an impersonal, hollow destiny, not to acquiesce to it, much less wear it like a blue ribbon.

Well, I mean, yeah. My foremost reason for going to medical school is so I can enhance my prospects of finding a good mate, and to bring honor to my family as the first in my bloodline to become a physician. I probably sound like I'm speaking a foreign language, but things like family, duty, honor, etc are a big deal in our culture. Again, I don't make the rules, I just play the game as it's given to me.

I don't think it's impersonal or hollow. What could be more personal than raising someone of your own blood into a proper man/woman?

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Not sure what kidneys have to do with dermatomes, as they aren't on the skin and have autonomic innervation.

Referred pain. It was something we were taught on around our second day of anatomy.

My understanding is that a lot of visceral problems manifest themselves along certain dermatomes, because the viscera rarely use their pain pathways. Kidneys would be T10-L1.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

This is relatively accurate, I'm basing this off of a class I took about linguistics and gender. Another thing is that women are talk from a very young age to be quiet and not interrupt. We also tend to use hedging more often. This combined with a male's linguistic pattern usually ends up with the woman getting absolutely trampled in mixed company and especially if she's outnumbered. I've developed a rather masculine speech pattern which means I don't get interrupted as much as other women, but a lot of men find it off putting and bitchy. Because there's no winners here if you have a vagina.

But yeah, the objective seems to be very different when sharing personal stories. For myself and most women I believe it's about trying to gain greater insight, find common ground, communicate a problem, strengthen or form a relationship. When guys come in with the "not all men" or "patriarchy hurts menz too" it comes across as a silencing tacit. The conversation is shut down and I have no idea whether my words had any impact, whether or not I was understood. I was never validated and there was no sense of closure so I'm just left open thinking wtf, Ya'll don't give a damn what I have to say so fuk you guys. Make sense?

Makes sense. Just wanted to give an alternate interpretation...it's not necessarily that guys don't give a ****, so much as we know nothing about it. But it's still important.

Reason I commented both times is I felt the perception was a little off base.. and no one was giving a male perspective in a reasonable way.

It can be a little off-putting to hear about how horrible people of your gender/race are, even if you know there's truth to it. Hence the emotional reactions you get.

 

[punkedoutriffs]

Who said anything about overcoming them? I've gotten to the point where I can recognize them, name them, but I still hate my body. If anyone can figure out a way not to please let me know.

Girl, I can teach you to love 'dat body. Jk.... but no, PM me for a free lesson.

 

[Anastomoses]

I've been hit enough in the kidneys to know exactly where they are lol. So painful

When I was 17 I had a weird allergic rxn and also learned the hard way where the kidneys are. Great story here of an ED dolt who ran no tests assuming who knows what and gave me some cocktail and sent me home. When I got home I looked up everything on the internet I could find about the dull pain. Dr. Beach, if I ever meet him again is going to get a talking to (unless he's my attending). I'd thank him for influencing my unwillingness to ever be the kind of doctor that lets something slip just because I was dismissive of a patient. Two days later I was admitted.

A little offended by the whole "they can't relate to us" we might be a little slower but give us time.

Out of curiosity, (also because I want to go into peds and feel like this would be useful for adolescent medicine) what helped you ladies to overcome these culturally inspired insecurities?

Ironically my father was a huge influence in this regard. He was a national athlete and had only daughters onto who to pass any of that. He mocked cheerleaders as an embarrassment to female fulfillment. Despite having a traditional marriage in which he had almost all power, he cleverly didn't want his own daughters objectified or stupidly relegated but wasn't especially calculating about it. Further still, he couldn't overcome my teeny bopper magazine years or secretly practicing cheers in my mirror at 10 (yuck) or other social influences. My mother has some old-fashioned ideas that don't even pan out to success but just keeps repeating false syllogisms she's been taught - which I've noticed is common with mothers. If I had to list best contributions, I'd say:
1. Activities. Having tennis, soccer, quiz bowl/debate gave me focuses off my looks.
2. Shaming the extremes of sexual exploitation and the willingness to endure it for feeling important (cheerleading, dressing like a prostitute to clubs).
3. Analysis - my classes were amazing and teachers taught us how to deconstruct, to ask the source of information, the motivation of the writer, etc. I think organized analysis is a tool for almost anything in life and so underutilized.
4. Shifting the metabolic pathway back to glucose. I kid, but...shifting the source of value from what you look like/who will pursue you...to what you achieve, your character content, and who/what you want. Even if you're pretty...it's a commodity. We all have commodities...use it to your best advantage, but don't ever let it be a source of your worth. That's a bad loop to fall into.
5. Positive feedback - when I was assertive boys still responded to that. In fact seemed more attentive, more longing, more fascinated than they are with passive attention-craving insecure types.

Other than #2 above, I'd say that's the way to go. #2 can get tricky and cause unforeseen consequences

Feminist literature I picked up much later and found it confusing. I couldn't appreciate concepts like "patriarchy" or power dynamics right away. I didn't understand first wave feminist issues of Betty Friedan because I never felt suffocated by baking and changing diapers. Also my bra just seemed helpful...why burn it?

 

[punkedoutriffs]

When I was 17 I had a weird allergic rxn and also learned the hard way where the kidneys are. Great story here of an ED dolt who ran no tests assuming who knows what and gave me some cocktail and sent me home. When I got home I looked up everything on the internet I could find about the dull pain. Dr. Beach, if I ever meet him again is going to get a talking to (unless he's my attending). I'd thank him for influencing my unwillingness to ever be the kind of doctor that lets something slip just because I was dismissive of a patient. Two days later I was admitted.


Ironically my father was a huge influence in this regard. He was a national athlete and had only daughters onto who to pass any of that. He mocked cheerleaders as an embarrassment to female fulfillment. Despite having a traditional marriage in which he had almost all power, he cleverly didn't want his own daughters objectified or stupidly relegated but wasn't especially calculating about it. Further still, he couldn't overcome my teeny bopper magazine years or secretly practicing cheers in my mirror at 10 (yuck) or other social influences. My mother has some old-fashioned ideas that don't even pan out to success but just keeps repeating false syllogisms she's been taught - which I've noticed is common with mothers. If I had to list best contributions, I'd say:
1. Activities. Having tennis, soccer, quiz bowl/debate gave me focuses off my looks.
2. Shaming the extremes of sexual exploitation and the willingness to endure it for feeling important (cheerleading, dressing like a prostitute to clubs).
3. Analysis - my classes were amazing and teachers taught us how to deconstruct, to ask the source of information, the motivation of the writer, etc. I think organized analysis is a tool for almost anything in life and so underutilized.
4. Shifting the metabolic pathway back to glucose. I kid, but...shifting the source of value from what you look like/who will pursue you...to what you achieve, your character content, and who/what you want. Even if you're pretty...it's a commodity. We all have commodities...use it to your best advantage, but don't ever let it be a source of your worth. That's a bad loop to fall into.
5. Positive feedback - when I was assertive boys still responded to that. In fact seemed more attentive, more longing, more fascinated than they are with passive attention-craving insecure types.

Other than #2 above, I'd say that's the way to go. #2 can get tricky and cause unforeseen consequences

Feminist literature I picked up much later and found it confusing. I couldn't appreciate concepts like "patriarchy" or power dynamics right away. I didn't understand first wave feminist issues of Betty Friedan because I never felt suffocated by baking and changing diapers. Also my bra just seemed helpful...why burn it?

Stop it, you're starting to give me the feels.

 

[Nidor]

.

 

[touchpause13]

Makes sense. Just wanted to give an alternate interpretation...it's not necessarily that guys don't give a ****, so much as we know nothing about it. But it's still important.

Reason I commented both times is I felt the perception was a little off base.. and no one was giving a male perspective in a reasonable way.

It can be a little off-putting to hear about how horrible people of your gender/race are, even if you know there's truth to it. Hence the emotional reactions you get.

I wasn't trying to put you in blast personally or anything, it's just a pattern I've seen over and over here and in a lot of male dominated spaces.

Not knowing about what women go through is very true, my main goal in like all of these posts is to get Ya'll to know and understand. It's a tricky balance though because of your second point basically, some guys just tune out because they feel like they have been personally attacked or they just feel uncomfortable.

@Anatomoses that's a really good list. I was raised in the 90s and got a lot of the "girl power" messages which were both good and bad. Personally, my mom is a professional woman with a PhD who worked outside of the home. I feel like I got a lot of good modeling in that aspect, but the girl power stuff was kind of counter productive because I wasn't really prepared for the sexism, harassment, you know, the fun stuff, that I encountered as a I grew up. Even though I had a strong sense of self as a kid, once I hit middle school I didn't have any tools to deal with ... A lot of horse**** that was thrown at me and I fell apart.

 

[xffan624]

Well, I mean, yeah. My foremost reason for going to medical school is so I can enhance my prospects of finding a good mate, and to bring honor to my family as the first in my bloodline to become a physician. I probably sound like I'm speaking a foreign language, but things like family, duty, honor, etc are a big deal in our culture. Again, I don't make the rules, I just play the game as it's given to me.

I don't think it's impersonal or hollow. What could be more personal than raising someone of your own blood into a proper man/woman?

Your parents already have a girl lined up for you, why are you bothering with medical school?

I just shudder to think a generation of miserable little ark's whose sole purpose in life is to reproduce and pass on that trait to their children. Sounds like reproducing bacteria. My comment regarding your desire to pass on your "message" is that obsessing over reproducing means you don't have a message.

Live your life. Stop obsessing about girls or being resentful of your colleagues. All of these defeatist attitudes and obsessions reduce your chances of finding a good mate. Do you seriously think females are so single-minded that getting an MD will suddenly make them ignore all the glaring warning signs of your depressing personality? The fact that you haven't had a date yet isn't because you don't have a MD or bulging muscles it's because you're a loser in your own mind. What's in your head projects outward. Girls aren't stupid, they can sense that and they respond accordingly.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Your parents already have a girl lined up for you, why are you bothering with medical school?

I just shudder to think a generation of miserable little ark's whose sole purpose in life is to reproduce and pass on that trait to their children. Sounds like reproducing bacteria. My comment regarding your desire to pass on your "message" is that obsessing over reproducing means you don't have a message.

Live your life. Stop obsessing about girls or being resentful of your colleagues. All of these defeatist attitudes and obsessions reduce your chances of finding a good mate. Do you seriously think females are so single-minded that getting an MD will suddenly make them ignore all the glaring warning signs of your depressing personality? The fact that you haven't had a date yet isn't because you don't have a MD or bulging muscles it's because you're a loser in your own mind. What's in your head projects outward. Girls aren't stupid, they can sense that and they respond accordingly.

Well, I need to become a physician first, a successful career is important in arranged marriages.

I've largely stopped resenting my colleagues, and SSRIs have reduced my libido, so I don't worry about women as much as I used to.

 

[Kaustikos]

When I was 17 I had a weird allergic rxn and also learned the hard way where the kidneys are. Great story here of an ED dolt who ran no tests assuming who knows what and gave me some cocktail and sent me home. When I got home I looked up everything on the internet I could find about the dull pain. Dr. Beach, if I ever meet him again is going to get a talking to (unless he's my attending). I'd thank him for influencing my unwillingness to ever be the kind of doctor that lets something slip just because I was dismissive of a patient. Two days later I was admitted.

When you start third year, you'll learn about all the mistakes/horror stories physicians do and even experience them first hand. You'll also learn/see the kind of physician you want to become not by those experiences but by those physicians who do good and excel in their field. I've experienced/seen/dealt with multiple instances of Physicians making errors not by honest mistakes but by negligence, ignorance and common sense. It sucks.

Live your life. Stop obsessing about girls or being resentful of your colleagues. All of these defeatist attitudes and obsessions reduce your chances of finding a good mate. Do you seriously think females are so single-minded that getting an MD will suddenly make them ignore all the glaring warning signs of your depressing personality? The fact that you haven't had a date yet isn't because you don't have a MD or bulging muscles it's because you're a loser in your own mind. What's in your head projects outward. Girls aren't stupid, they can sense that and they respond accordingly.

Well, truth is that some girls DO fall for a title or physical appearance. So, he does have SOME chance with that.
But I agree with your last statements - you can't step into the world with that kind of self image. You need to be comfortable with yourself before finding someone to be comfortable with. Otherwise; you'll become needy. And believe me; NO ONE wants needy. Except for needy people people. Then you two just leech each other. Win Win.

 

[Kaustikos]

Well, I need to become a physician first, a successful career is important in arranged marriages.

I've largely stopped resenting my colleagues, and SSRIs have reduced my libido, so I don't worry about women as much as I used to.

Wow. I just... Someone should copy this and put it in the Merriam Webster Dictionary under "Settling"

 

[fancymylotus]

Well, I need to become a physician first, a successful career is important in arranged marriages.

I've largely stopped resenting my colleagues, and SSRIs have reduced my libido, so I don't worry about women as much as I used to.

Shouldn't you be studying for your anatomy retake instead of worrying about your arranged marriage? I mean, I dunno. What do I know about studying and priorities anyway

 

[Arkangeloid]

Shouldn't you be studying for your anatomy retake instead of worrying about your arranged marriage? I mean, I dunno. What do I know about studying and priorities anyway

I SDN a lot less now, only on study breaks tbh.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Wow. I just... Someone should copy this and put it in the Merriam Webster Dictionary under "Settling"

I'm afraid I don't understand.

 

[fancymylotus]

I SDN a lot less now, only on study breaks tbh.

How do you expect to marry your perfect Indian doctor wife if you fail out of med school?! ><

 

[CherryRedDracul]

Nope, I'm serious. I have a vague idea of where they are (the tummy place), but not much beyond that. I won't be remediating the Abdomen though, only Head + Neck.


As for calculus, I'm surprised you haven't seen it so far. One example is the equation for venous compliance, which is

dCv = dV/dCVP

It also came up a few times in Pharm IIRC.

Yeah, but med students don't actually integrate. They use algebra and plug'n'chug. Frankly, you don't need to use calculus for anything medical school related. For research? Maybe. I had to revisit multivariable calculus and continuum mechanics for that.

 

[NontradCA]

Wow. I just... Someone should copy this and put it in the Merriam Webster Dictionary under "Settling"

That's not settling, that's dealing with your problems and being completely honest with yourself (and others for the matter). If Arkangeloid is a real person and not a troll, he should be envied for being so honest.

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

Yeah, but med students don't actually integrate. They use algebra and plug'n'chug. Frankly, you don't need to use calculus for anything medical school related. For research? Maybe. I had to revisit multivariable calculus and continuum mechanics for that.

When you are a doctor and on the wards, calculus and liner algebra are used nearly everyday.