Dermatology match from Saba?

[Chemiosmotic]

I thought that someone may think this way, but here's some things to consider:


3. Not all residency spots are funded by US taxpayers (especially derm). Now most are (probably about 80-90%), but certainly not all. For the spots that are funded by private hospitals or groups, no such obligation to tax payers (my interpretation or yours) exists.

All excellent points in your previous post, but I meant to touch on this one in particular during my post as well.

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[Elfy]

I have no idea why you are talking about me, as I did not refer to myself at all in this thread. What I did/do and what I will/will not match into is not the problem here. I find the other poster's assumptions preposterous. I think standardized testing-from MCAT's to USMLE to just about every other test-insignificant. they are hurdles that need to be passed, sure, but they mean nothing. Not everyone has the same retention, reading speed, not everyone has the same test, not everyone was born speaking English, etc. etc. The variables are so many that's it's not even funny. So stating that someone with a higher score will be a better physician, when a great deal of the knowledge/know who of medicine is learned during residency and beyond, is preposterous to me.

Again, this thread is not about me, not sure why you are making it about me? Just like someone else posted, PD's should give priority to american grads without a doubt and I feel the same way. I don't see where there is even an argument there?

You don't have to agree with me, and again, this thread is not about me so please don't make it so.

I was offering some tips on how to improve your application because I want to see you match (BTW you're very welcome). I wasn't suggesting your identity should be disclosed or that you should receive "nasty grams" based on whether you matched or not, as if you seem to suggest it would/should? happen to this other person who did in fact match (a fact you seem unhappy about).

If not everyone was born speaking English, as you say, then that is one more reason to respect FMG accomplishments since they don't receive any special accomodations to compensate for that.

As for STANDARDIZED tests, their purpose and meaning is to compare the knowledge I obtained from my medical school plus American review books to the knowledge you obtained from your medical school plus American review books. It does not serve to compare my medical school to yours. Please feel free to believe that your medical school is better, once and for all.

 

[deltamed]

The myth that board examinations mean "nothing" is interesting. Unfortunately, it's basically a made-up thing based on the observation there are plenty of bad doctors with good scores, and good doctors with bad scores.

The majority of studies done on this topic have shown there is a good correlation between board exams (step1, 2, 3 and inservice and even MCAT) and clinical performance during residency as documented by program directors.

After you do a few years of residency you will see that it's very easy to see who is a good attending and who is a bad one. While the bad ones may have done well/poor on boards the good ones all did well on these tests... because it usually reflects fund of knowledge.




Correlation of United States Medical Licensing Examination and Internal Medicine In-Training Examination performance. Perez JA Jr, Greer S.

Validity of the Medical College Admission Test for predicting medical school performance.Julian ER.

Correlation of manual dexterity with USMLE scores and medical student class rank.Goldberg AE, Neifeld JP, Wolfe LG, Goldberg SR.

Do U.S. medical licensure examination step 1 scores correlate with council on resident education in obstetrics and gynecology in-training examination scores and American board of obstetrics and gynecology written examination performance?Armstrong A, Alvero R, Nielsen P, Deering S, Robinson R, Frattarelli J, Sarber K, Duff P, Ernest J.

USMLE step 1 scores as a significant predictor of future board passage in pediatrics.

McCaskill QE, Kirk JJ, Barata DM, Wludyka PS, Zenni EA, Chiu TT.

Does medical school performance predict radiology resident performance?Boyse TD, Patterson SK, Cohan RH, Korobkin M, Fitzgerald JT, Oh MS, Gross BH, Quint DJ.

 

[dgruntledmizzou]

This is the US, therefore, US students should have priority. I find it highly unlikely that there was no good US student who would not have been qualified enough to get that spot. Foreign countries don't fund residencies here, taxpayers here do however. If you try to go to Canada or any other country, you'll likely end up without a residency because they give priority to their students, just like they should.

Weren't you the one who said that standarized scores were the indication of what type of doctor a student would be? Although i find this argument to be without sense, let's not forget that these students had to go to the Caribbean because they couldn't make it with their sub par test scores here in a US medical school. You are contradicting yourself, because otherwise, your previous statements about the significance of test scores falls apart.

So we are going to give some of the most coveted spots to people who were not even "qualified" enough to get into med school in the first place, either on their first or multiple tries, and had to go to the Caribbean to get a medical education?

Wow.

You again?

Give us a break. You couldn't scramble into a prelim position. Who are you to judge who is worthy and who isn't? Worry about yourself and not the outstanding candidate who made something of himself/herself from a Caribbean medical school and is now on the path towards becoming a dermatologist.

 

[Doublecortin]

For as much as you would apparently like an obligation to exist, and to the extent that I obviously believe one does not, I will remind you of the numerous foreign trained physicians already practicing in the area of dermatology. I personally know a handful (given most of them went to school in the 60's and 70's when Derm was MUCH less competitive) who currently have thriving practices. More importantly, they have helped a lot of patients improve both the quality and span of their life.

Just because a residency becomes more competitive over the years does not mean program directors must reserve a particular residency according to your pre-determined, deserving inclusion set. Just because it's your opinion, does not mean that it's the prevailing theory or right thing for medical education in the United States.

It's a slippery slope. Do you think that when you start a snowball rolling that you always know where it will go?

While you are selecting out subsets of the population who are "worthy" of a dermatology residency why don't we go looking at some of these examples of problems that this type of thinking can lead to.

Nightmare examples:
1. What if one were to say that anyone attending a non-Ivy medical school should be disqualified because they were not smart enough to get into a Ivy league school.

2. What if one were to say anyone going to a D.O. school should be automatically disqualified from consideration because they couldn't get into an Allopathic school.

3. What if one said anyone ever attending a Foreign school should be disqualified even if they transferred to a U.S. school because they should carry the shame of attending a foreign school forever.

4. What if one said any foreign national attending graduating from a U.S. medical school should be disqualified because they are taking a U.S. spot

5. What if there were residencies who only considered their own students for their spots?

6. What if Beth Israel Deaconess or Cedar's only considered Jewish students or Duke only Methodist because only "they" know the "right" way to practice medicine?


I don't know about you, but I'll take the current system of taking the BEST candidates over any system based on preconceived notions.

you are making nonsensical arguments. You obviously didn't read my previous post carefully since I mentioned that in my opinion THERE IS place for foreign trained MDs in US residencies, including derm, such as in the case where you bring in someone who was an all-star researcher back in his home country. And like I already said, that was obviously not the case here.

My argument is an economic one. Since we, the taxpayers, are paying for residency positions, we should have the priority consideration for them.

 

[reno911]

My argument is an economic one. Since we, the taxpayers, are paying for residency positions, we should have the priority consideration for them.

Yes, and in my post (#49), I demonstrated why your argument doesn't make sense if you want to help US tax payers.

 

[Medstudentquest]

You again?

Give us a break. You couldn't scramble into a prelim position. Who are you to judge who is worthy and who isn't? Worry about yourself and not the outstanding candidate who made something of himself/herself from a Caribbean medical school and is now on the path towards becoming a dermatologist.

Lame, very lame. That candidate couldn't get into medical school here and were not up to par, and just because their mom/dad/whoever knew someone in the department doesn't mean they should have gotten the spot. End of story. You have a nasty nasty attitude.

 

[Medstudentquest]

you are making nonsensical arguments. You obviously didn't read my previous post carefully since I mentioned that in my opinion THERE IS place for foreign trained MDs in US residencies, including derm, such as in the case where you bring in someone who was an all-star researcher back in his home country. And like I already said, that was obviously not the case here.

My argument is an economic one. Since we, the taxpayers, are paying for residency positions, we should have the priority consideration for them.

Absolutely.

 

[Medstudentquest]

I was offering some tips on how to improve your application because I want to see you match (BTW you're very welcome). I wasn't suggesting your identity should be disclosed or that you should receive "nasty grams" based on whether you matched or not, as if you seem to suggest it would/should? happen to this other person who did in fact match (a fact you seem unhappy about).

If not everyone was born speaking English, as you say, then that is one more reason to respect FMG accomplishments since they don't receive any special accomodations to compensate for that.

As for STANDARDIZED tests, their purpose and meaning is to compare the knowledge I obtained from my medical school plus American review books to the knowledge you obtained from your medical school plus American review books. It does not serve to compare my medical school to yours. Please feel free to believe that your medical school is better, once and for all.

Elfy,
I appreciate the concern if that is what you are doing, but my application was pretty good to start with. Unfortunately I was/am not able to apply to countless programs for a multiplicity of reasons, and with derm, that is an important problem. Only being able to apply to a few programs in a very geographically restricted area makes it difficult to match, regardless of good qualifications. I am not sure what you are talking about in your other sentence. I simply asked what the deal was with the Caribbean student matching into Loyola whose name was "witheld" and I assume it is because that person should be sufficiently smart to know that quite a number of people would be upset with someone from the Caribbean getting into a derm program in the US likely because of connections. I didn't mention anything about my particular med school or anyone else's and neither did I compare medical schools. Not sure where you got that from?

 

[Medstudentquest]

Dude, you have a habit of misinterpreting people in such a horrible way just so you can find a way to disagree with them.

I can't tell if you are doing it on purpose or just being dense. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it is the former.

Once again, to be clear:

1. I think test scores are important.
2. I think that highly qualified foriegn applicants should be given preference over lesser qualified americans.
3. If this particular individual (SABA grad) is, as you say, someone who was not qualified enough to get into med school in the first place, then I doubt they deserved a spot and I would NOT support their acceptance to a derm residency program. This type of person is clearly NOT the type of highly qualified foriegn grad that I'm talking about.

I'm fine with you believing stadandized scores are important, but I simply disagree with you. As far as your third point, is there even a question as to whether this person was qualified to get into med school in the first place? Unless you missed this point, they went to SABA-in the Caribbean, in order to get a medical education. That implies that they were not able to get into a US med school, because in whichever way, they were sub par.

I would be ok if there was a superbly qualified grad who blew us all away like the other poster said. But clearly, it's not the case with this person. Again, like the other poster stated as well. This is someone who had to go to the Caribbean to study medicine and then magically lands a derm spot.

Also, it's foreign-not "foriegn" like you keep spelling it.

I also don't like your attitude at all. Not sure why you have this air of superiority or what makes you think you are all that? If you can't discuss a point calmly and just accept that others will not necessarily agree with you, this is done. I think you realize that your argument has fallen apart and you are upset. Clearly if scores, as you say, are clearly indicative of the type of dr someone will be, and this grad couldn't even get into ANY medical school in the US and had to go to the Caribbean, their scores were not good. Again, it's doubtful that somehow they became wildly superior to all other applicants overnight and truly blew everyone away and landed a spot out of merit.

 

[dgruntledmizzou]

Lame, very lame. That candidate couldn't get into medical school here and were not up to par, and just because their mom/dad/whoever knew someone in the department doesn't mean they should have gotten the spot. End of story. You have a nasty nasty attitude.

And you are?

How's the prelim year search going?

Oh that's right.

You're certainly approaching it the right way. Sitting here on an online forum and aiming your venom at someone who had the knowhow and the connections to succeed.

You're out of your mind if you think a dermatology program would select an applicant purely because the PD knew their mommy or daddy.

 

[reno911]

I also don't like your attitude at all. Not sure why you have this air of superiority or what makes you think you are all that? If you can't discuss a point calmly and just accept that others will not necessarily agree with you, this is done.

Not sure why you think I'm not discussing this calmly. I'm pretty sure I'm the calmest person you would ever meet. Sorry if the tone doesn't seem that way.

My "air of superiority" probably comes from the fact that I find it odd that you can't comprehend what you read.

Here it is again: WHEN I REFER TO HIGHLY QUALIFIED FOREIGN GRADUATES, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SABA GRAD IN THE ORIGINAL POST. (caps not because I'm not "calm", but because I don't want you to miss this yet again).

So stuff like this doesn't apply:

Clearly if scores, as you say, are clearly indicative of the type of dr someone will be, and this grad couldn't even get into ANY medical school in the US and had to go to the Caribbean, their scores were not good. Again, it's doubtful that somehow they became wildly superior to all other applicants overnight and truly blew everyone away and landed a spot out of merit.

But you keep typing it like it is some refutation of what I'm saying.

 

[Elfy]

Elfy,
I appreciate the concern if that is what you are doing, but my application was pretty good to start with. Unfortunately I was/am not able to apply to countless programs for a multiplicity of reasons, and with derm, that is an important problem. Only being able to apply to a few programs in a very geographically restricted area makes it difficult to match, regardless of good qualifications. I am not sure what you are talking about in your other sentence. I simply asked what the deal was with the Caribbean student matching into Loyola whose name was "witheld" and I assume it is because that person should be sufficiently smart to know that quite a number of people would be upset with someone from the Caribbean getting into a derm program in the US likely because of connections. I didn't mention anything about my particular med school or anyone else's and neither did I compare medical schools. Not sure where you got that from?

MSQ,

You make a few incorrect assumptions.

1. You are assuming this IMG got into a US derm program "likely because of connections" while unfamiliar with all the other credentials in this person's file.

2. You cross-contaminate (for fault of a better word) the IMG/FMG issue with the taxpaying issue. That's apples and oranges. I have been a US taxpayer for a long time and I'm a FMG. On the other hand, there are US citizens who relocate to medical schools abroad (future IMGs) and since they do not earn income in the US during that period, they may file taxes but not pay taxes. The family they leave behind pays US taxes.

3. You assume you are the only one whose professional limitations stem from geographic restrictions: in other words, it's OK for you to apply to a limited number of derm programs and match to none due to (at least in part) family/personal reasons, but it's not OK for this person to apply to a limited number of medical schools and enroll in a school abroad due to (at least) in part family/personal reasons. You assume the only reason they went to a med school abroad is they were academically unable to get into an American med school. Give them the benefit of the doubt you give yourself.

4. You reject standardized tests which are supposedly objective (which is what I meant by knowledge fund independent of the medical school of attendance), you reject personal connections which are supposedly subjective, then how do you propose PDs select between candidates? Via psychics, mediums, clairvoyants or tarot? Most AMGs have glowing LORs and good clinical grades, and if you exclude the FMG/IMG factor and the standardized test factor all you're left with is one uniform, giant headache. Good luck telling them apart.

 

[reno911]

MSQ,


2. You cross-contaminate (for fault of a better word) the IMG/FMG issue with the taxpaying issue. That's apples and oranges. I have been a US taxpayer for a long time and I'm a FMG. On the other hand, there are US citizens who relocate to medical schools abroad (future IMGs) and since they do not earn income in the US during that period, they may file taxes but not pay taxes. The family they leave behind pays US taxes.

Obviously you're right. I made reference to this point in my earlier post (post #49, point #4). I thought about trying to explain this one further to medstudentquest myself, but given how he seemed so confused about everything else, I didn't really want to try. You're a better person than I am.

 

[Medstudentquest]

And you are?

How's the prelim year search going?

Oh that's right.

You're certainly approaching it the right way. Sitting here on an online forum and aiming your venom at someone who had the knowhow and the connections to succeed.

You're out of your mind if you think a dermatology program would select an applicant purely because the PD knew their mommy or daddy.

No one is aiming venom-I was not the one who started the post. If you missed it, the person who started the post was "surprised" that the candidate had gotten a position here in the US from the Caribbean. I was also not the one who initially suggested the mommy/daddy knowing the PD issue, but I certainly agree with the poster.
Like I said in my previous post, I am unable to relocate so because there were no open spots that were geographically possible, I did not get a prelim position. I also realistically stopped searching for a prelim position shortly after the post scramble period for numerous reasons and I decided to finish my grad degree and do research, among other things. Lastly, I am no longer searching for a prelim since I have recently secured an outside the match position for next year at the program I had ranked #1 on my list, so there i no need to look into this any longer. But thanks for trying to make a jab at me.

 

[Chemiosmotic]

I'm fine with you believing stadandized scores are important, but I simply disagree with you. As far as your third point, is there even a question as to whether this person was qualified to get into med school in the first place? Unless you missed this point, they went to SABA-in the Caribbean, in order to get a medical education. That implies that they were not able to get into a US med school, because in whichever way, they were sub par.

I would be ok if there was a superbly qualified grad who blew us all away like the other poster said. But clearly, it's not the case with this person. Again, like the other poster stated as well. This is someone who had to go to the Caribbean to study medicine and then magically lands a derm spot.

Also, it's foreign-not "foriegn" like you keep spelling it.

I also don't like your attitude at all. Not sure why you have this air of superiority or what makes you think you are all that? If you can't discuss a point calmly and just accept that others will not necessarily agree with you, this is done. I think you realize that your argument has fallen apart and you are upset. Clearly if scores, as you say, are clearly indicative of the type of dr someone will be, and this grad couldn't even get into ANY medical school in the US and had to go to the Caribbean, their scores were not good. Again, it's doubtful that somehow they became wildly superior to all other applicants overnight and truly blew everyone away and landed a spot out of merit.

So if you are using the "they shouldn't get into derm because they don't pay taxes" reasoning , and you are OK with outstanding foreign researchers (who don't pay taxes) coming in to take U.S. positions, why are you not ok with American's (who pay taxes) getting into those same spots. Is it because they happen to go to foreign medical schools, and you don't think anyone attending a medical school in the caribbean is good enough? That just doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

Since you have extenuating circumstances that prevented you from gaining access to a residency that you feel that you are qualified for, perhaps could also understand that there may be (albeit non-geographic) extenuating circumstances that prevent a qualified student from gaining access to a U.S. medical school their first time around. Depending on which area of the country you are from, you may have a more difficult time getting into a med school than others. Some states have a lot of public med schools (NY, California, Ohio), that are traditionally state resident friendly. Others (North Carolina and Pennsylvania for example) have the majority of their spots tied up in Private schools that are much less state friendly.

Hundreds, if not thousands of qualified applicants get turned down for U.S. medical school spots every year. Some of these students choose to apply again the next year, and others (like me) feel older/more confident/read to take their chances in the caribbean and transfer back. Once again, going to the Caribbean, the Guad, Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland or Australia (all the routes that are traditionally considered by Americans) does NOT make you stupid. It means that you are determined.

If you yourself are content to take a somewhat-alternative route in finding a way into a dermatology residency(for whatever the reason), why fault others for finding a somewhat-alternative route of accomplishing their dreams as well.

Good luck and God bless you in achieving your goal. Here's hoping that we continue living in a world where everyone with strong work ethic(U.S., IMG, FMG, DO included) can accomplish theirs as well.

 

[Medstudentquest]

So if you are using the "they shouldn't get into derm because they don't pay taxes" reasoning , and you are OK with outstanding foreign researchers (who don't pay taxes) coming in to take U.S. positions, why are you not ok with American's (who pay taxes) getting into those same spots. Is it because they happen to go to foreign medical schools, and you don't think anyone attending a medical school in the caribbean is good enough? That just doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

Since you have extenuating circumstances that prevented you from gaining access to a residency that you feel that you are qualified for, perhaps could also understand that there may be (albeit non-geographic) extenuating circumstances that prevent a qualified student from gaining access to a U.S. medical school their first time around. Depending on which area of the country you are from, you may have a more difficult time getting into a med school than others. Some states have a lot of public med schools (NY, California, Ohio), that are traditionally state resident friendly. Others (North Carolina and Pennsylvania for example) have the majority of their spots tied up in Private schools that are much less state friendly.

Hundreds, if not thousands of qualified applicants get turned down for U.S. medical school spots every year. Some of these students choose to apply again the next year, and others (like me) feel older/more confident/read to take their chances in the caribbean and transfer back. Once again, going to the Caribbean, the Guad, Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland or Australia (all the routes that are traditionally considered by Americans) does NOT make you stupid. It means that you are determined.

If you yourself are content to take a somewhat-alternative route in finding a way into a dermatology residency(for whatever the reason), why fault others for finding a somewhat-alternative route of accomplishing their dreams as well.

Good luck and God bless you in achieving your goal. Here's hoping that we continue living in a world where everyone with strong work ethic(U.S., IMG, FMG, DO included) can accomplish theirs as well.

Chemiosmotic,

I think this is a complicated issue to discuss and one that needs to be discussed at length in order to gain a clear understanding/perspective of others' views on things and I don't feel this forum is the best medium for such a discussion. Simply put, I simply don't feel that this person gained entrance into the program based on merit. With that said, I don't have a problem if someone wants to go to the Caribbean for med school to become a dr if they could not get into a US med school.

I was in part pointing out that if someone did not get into med school here their scores, which I believe you or someone else claimed determined the quality of a dr, and had to go to the Caribbean for med school obviously would be unlikely to be a stellar applicant and therefore would be unlikely to get a derm spot out of merit alone. We discussed this too as well based on another statement you made, so no need to beat a dead horse. I personally do not believe standarized tests are indicative of much of anything so I definitely agree with you that many people get turned down every year who could potentially be great doctors. However I find it a double standard when someone talks about the importance of these tests but thinks it's ok for a Caribbean applicant to take a spot in a very coveted specialty since they likely had not outstanding scores. If MCAT scores are predictive of performance on Step 1 in particular, it's unlikely this person had stellar scores if they could not get into a med school here in the first place. That is all.

I don't mind if you or someone else decides that going to the Caribbean is the best alternative.

I also wish you the best of luck in your career path and hope you get to do what you love. Take care.

 

[reno911]

MSQ,

I still don't think that you understand what most everyone is trying to say to you. It's not nearly as complicated as you think.

Here's what most are saying: Judge each FMG on his merits. If they're unqualifed (and many are), then they don't deserve a spot. If they happen to be qualified, then they do deserve a spot.

Here's what you're saying (as I understand it): "This guy went to SABA, so he probably couldn't get into a US medical school and he probably sucks. I am unwilling to entertain the possiblity that he may be qualified."

So you and everyone else agree that if the FMG is unqualified, then they don't deserve a spot. There is no disagreement on this point.

Where you and everyone else are at odds are that we will consider the possibility (however small it may be) that he is qualified. You simply will not consider this possibility (there's no evidence in your prior posts of considering this). You constantly say stuff like (I'm paraphrasing here) "This guy went to SABA, he probably couldn't get into a US med school and had bad test scores (among other shortcomings), so he must be grossly unqualified".


Here's something to think about:

Let's say that you were to find out that this SABA grad got a 40 on the MCAT and a 4.0 undergrad GPA. He was accepted to many US med schools but went to SABA because that's the only place his wife got accepted and they wanted to go school together. While at SABA, he graduated at the top of his class, honored every rotation, got 270+ on step 1 and 2, obtained glowing LORs, and did a lot of derm research with some good publications. He is also a US citizen.

Do you think that if this were the case, then this person still doesn't deserve a spot? If you think that such an individual is deserving of a spot, then you don't really disagree with everyone nearly as much as you think.

Now I'm certain you're probably thinking "It is very unlikely that this SABA grad is anything like this". I know it's very unlikely. But that's not the point. The point is what would you think if you were faced with such a scenario (as unlikely as it may be).

 

[Doublecortin]

MSQ,

I still don't think that you understand what most everyone is trying to say to you. It's not nearly as complicated as you think.

Here's what most are saying: Judge each FMG on his merits. If they're unqualifed (and many are), then they don't deserve a spot. If they happen to be qualified, then they do deserve a spot.

Here's what you're saying (as I understand it): "This guy went to SABA, so he probably couldn't get into a US medical school and he probably sucks. I am unwilling to entertain the possiblity that he may be qualified."

So you and everyone else agree that if the FMG is unqualified, then they don't deserve a spot. There is no disagreement on this point.

Where you and everyone else are at odds are that we will consider the possibility (however small it may be) that he is qualified. You simply will not consider this possibility (there's no evidence in your prior posts of considering this). You constantly say stuff like (I'm paraphrasing here) "This guy went to SABA, he probably couldn't get into a US med school and had bad test scores (among other shortcomings), so he must be grossly unqualified".


Here's something to think about:

Let's say that you were to find out that this SABA grad got a 40 on the MCAT and a 4.0 undergrad GPA. He was accepted to many US med schools but went to SABA because that's the only place his wife got accepted and they wanted to go school together. While at SABA, he graduated at the top of his class, honored every rotation, got 270+ on step 1 and 2, obtained glowing LORs, and did a lot of derm research with some good publications. He is also a US citizen.

Do you think that if this were the case, then this person still doesn't deserve a spot? If you think that such an individual is deserving of a spot, then you don't really disagree with everyone nearly as much as you think.

Now I'm certain you're probably thinking "It is very unlikely that this SABA grad is anything like this". I know it's very unlikely. But that's not the point. The point is what would you think if you were faced with such a scenario (as unlikely as it may be).

We are all just playing a guessing game here. The issue is really rather simple. Since there are probably 10 US grads applying for derm who "graduated at the top of his class, honored every rotation, got 270+ on step 1 and 2, obtained glowing LORs, and did a lot of derm research with some good publications" for every carribean grad, the reason this person from SABA got into derm is PROBABLY due to very strong connectinons.

He/she might have been a phenomenal applicant, but I have a very hard time believing that there weren't equally or even more phenomenal applicants from US med schools applying to the same program.

 

[Medstudentquest]

We are all just playing a guessing game here. The issue is really rather simple. Since there are probably 10 US grads applying for derm who "graduated at the top of his class, honored every rotation, got 270+ on step 1 and 2, obtained glowing LORs, and did a lot of derm research with some good publications" for every carribean grad, the reason this person from SABA got into derm is PROBABLY due to very strong connectinons.

He/she might have been a phenomenal applicant, but I have a very hard time believing that there weren't equally or even more phenomenal applicants from US med schools applying to the same program.

Right, and I said this multiple times. The likelihood that this person was this phenomenal is very very minute. Most people who get accepted into US med schools rarely give up that option, so the likelihood of what you suggest is likely not the case. As Doublecortin says, and something I have also said in previous posts, is that even if he was as great as you mention, there is a likelihood that you there were a ton of applicants who went to school here who have those same stats or even better. I find it hard to believe that there was not a single person who was as good or better than this person. The great likelihood is that there was some connection that allowed this person to get into the program.

Unfortunately me and you and some others don't agree on this point, but my feelings/views are the same as Doublecortin on this issue, so I will leave things as they are. Good luck with everything reno.

 

[sensitive skin]

It's not what you know, often, it's who you know.

And that goes for life, not just residency.

Never more true than in derm...

sad but true.

 

[oracle07]

First of all, there is nothing illegal or immoral about taking a Carribbean or foreign grad.

OK great, tax dollars pay for spots. And? They're still probably just as likely as a US grad to stay practicing here in the US. If they stay in USA, I don't see how taxes are a valid point. If you want to take it to a state level: should programs be allowed to match out of state residents? Should medical schools be allowed to take out of state students? After all, those students/residents are more likely to leave the state after training.

Also, how much in taxes have YOU (not your parents) paid compared to the FMG? For most who went straight through school, the answer is probably not much. Plus, if you went to a state funded medical school, you probably already USED more tax money than you've paid in...and more than the FMG.

Who knows if this person had connections. If they did, that's great for them. I had connections too -- from hard work, research, and networking. I know there were people in my class with better board scores and more honors than me who failed to match into derm. They had the numbers but got lost in the background of the game.

Another point: I didn't have any parental connections, but those who have them still don't have a cake walk. Having a parent dermatologist/doc MIGHT help a little, but not as much as you'd think. We get calls every year from parents (dermatologists, chairmen of other departments, deans of schools, politicians, etc) requesting (and sometimes demanding) we interview their child. As far as I can tell, it's never helped any of those applicants. If anything, it hurt their chances. In other words... connections from people who have nothing to gain by saying nice things about you mean a lot more... so make some!

Overall, a "better" candidate depends what the program is looking for. If you can make a fit into a program academically and socially, the match will be your friend. If you can't, you'll just be angry that others went out and made connections while you memorized the first aid series.

I guess all I have to say to FMG/Caribbean grads who match into derm: CONGRATULATIONS! Don't let jealousy on these message boards taint what you've worked hard for.... Good luck, doctor

 

[Elfy]

Right, and I said this multiple times. The likelihood that this person was this phenomenal is very very minute. Most people who get accepted into US med schools rarely give up that option, so the likelihood of what you suggest is likely not the case. As Doublecortin says, and something I have also said in previous posts, is that even if he was as great as you mention, there is a likelihood that you there were a ton of applicants who went to school here who have those same stats or even better. I find it hard to believe that there was not a single person who was as good or better than this person. The great likelihood is that there was some connection that allowed this person to get into the program.

Unfortunately me and you and some others don't agree on this point, but my feelings/views are the same as Doublecortin on this issue, so I will leave things as they are. Good luck with everything reno.

MSQ, as hard as it may be to grasp this, what almost everyone is telling you on this thread (and on other threads you started or joined in) is to stop worrying about how other people are doing, and focus on being the best resident you can be. Stats and other parts of other people's applications are confidential (you haven't been exactly forthcoming with your own stats, which is within your rights), so please cease the speculations about what this person's stats are based on probabilities and likelihoods you pass as "facts". It lacks collegiality, and that being said, let me assure you I have no connections at Saba, at Loyola or within the field of dermatology. This is just a matter of principle.

 

[reno911]

OK MSQ, now we're getting somewhere:

To recap, there are two scenarios

1. SABA grad wasn't very qualified. In this case you and I agree that this person doesn't "deserve" a spot. No problem here. I also agree that this is the most likely case, so you don't have to keep repeating it in every single post you make. I understand that. We don't need to discuss this scenario any longer.

2. SABA grad actually was very qualified (i.e., the very unlikely scenario)

Here's where we disagree. So let's just isolate this issue:

You say,

even if he was as great as you mention, there is a likelihood that you there were a ton of applicants who went to school here who have those same stats or even better

There is definitely not "a ton" of such applicants, which is why I intentionally picked such outrageous stats. Doublecortins estimate of 10 seems about right (or even high) and I'm pretty sure even if all of those people applied to Loyola, they likely matched somewhere better.

Moreover why does the "went to school here" part even matter.

Remember how I described this person:

40 on the MCAT and a 4.0 undergrad GPA. He was accepted to many US med schools but went to SABA because that's the only place his wife got accepted and they wanted to go school together. While at SABA, he graduated at the top of his class, honored every rotation, got 270+ on step 1 and 2, obtained glowing LORs, and did a lot of derm research with some good publications. He is also a US citizen

So I've really got only one question for you:

So if he is a US citizen and did well on his steps, and honored all his clincals (which, if I'm not mistaken, as a SABA student would have been done at affiliated teaching hospitals in the US) why does whether he "went to school here" even matter?

As a friendly reminder, there is no need for you to repeat, yet again, that the SABA grad in the original post is probably not as stellar as my hypothetical example. I understand that, I agree, and that is not the point.

 

[reno911]

the reason this person from SABA got into derm is PROBABLY due to very strong connectinons.

I have never claimed that this is untrue.

He/she might have been a phenomenal applicant, but I have a very hard time believing that there weren't equally or even more phenomenal applicants from US med schools applying to the same program.

I'm sure you must realize that even if they applied to the same program and they were "equally or even more phenomenal", then they almost certainly matched somewhere better.

I've got two questions for you:

1. So, once again, realizing that my hypothetical SABA grad is extremely unlikely to exist. If such a person did actually exist, would you have a problem with them obtaining a derm residency spot?

2. Why does the fact that he didn't go to a "US med school" matter? Recall that this hypothetical person is a US citizen.

this SABA grad got a 40 on the MCAT and a 4.0 undergrad GPA. He was accepted to many US med schools but went to SABA because that's the only place his wife got accepted and they wanted to go school together. While at SABA, he graduated at the top of his class, honored every rotation, got 270+ on step 1 and 2, obtained glowing LORs, and did a lot of derm research with some good publications. He is also a US citizen.

 

[InvitroDerm]

The 2009 match list in the sticky does not show a SABA grad for Loyola and Loyola's website says "Applicants should be from US allopathic medical schools and have a minimum score of 220 on either Part I or Part II of the National Board of Medical Examiners examinations." I'm thinking the SABA match list is a mistake?

 

[Doublecortin]

The 2009 match list in the sticky does not show a SABA grad for Loyola and Loyola's website says "Applicants should be from US allopathic medical schools and have a minimum score of 220 on either Part I or Part II of the National Board of Medical Examiners examinations." I'm thinking the SABA match list is a mistake?

That would be really funny, all the wasted breath for nothing

 

[Medstudentquest]

That would be really funny, all the wasted breath for nothing

Lol, I would agree with you it would be really funny.

 

[sensitive skin]

The 2009 match list in the sticky does not show a SABA grad for Loyola and Loyola's website says "Applicants should be from US allopathic medical schools and have a minimum score of 220 on either Part I or Part II of the National Board of Medical Examiners examinations." I'm thinking the SABA match list is a mistake?

http://saba.edu/forms/match2009_byspec.pdf It's on there...name withheld.

Ohhh...somebody matched surgery at Mayo.

 

[OntheRoof55]

Lol, I would agree with you it would be really funny.

they also had someone match in ortho and urology...the match list overall is better than what i expected for an island school...although still lots of FM

 

[doc MD]

Is anyone as shocked as I am that a Saba graduate matched into derm (Loyola) 2009?

I took a look at Loyola and they take 2 ppl/yr. Did that change?

Also, according the derm match 08-09 the was on dermboard which I assume is voluntary, 3 ppl were listed. None listed were from SABA:

Anjali Shah from Loyola Chicago
Elise Herro from Arizona State
Rebecca Hoodecheck from Washington University St Louis

Of the 3 above, Herro and Hoodecheck are listed on Loyola as PGY-1 going into derm as PGY-2. Add Shah and the 'unknown' we now have 4 derm residents?

Something is not right. Is Loyola now taking 4? 3? still 2?

 

[darkmansaad]

http://saba.edu/forms/match2009_byspec.pdf It's on there...name withheld.

Ohhh...somebody matched surgery at Mayo.

Actually, TWO people matched categorical at Mayo.