Dermatology match from Saba?

[InvitroDerm]

Is anyone as shocked as I am that a Saba graduate matched into derm (Loyola) 2009?

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[Transformers]

You took our job!

 

[Dermguy]

Think of what a rockin' applicant s/he must be to make it through all the FMG screens?

 

[N-Surge]

I share Dermguy's attitude.

Congrats is all I have to say!

California and Florida approved! I wonder if this is one of those programs where the students spend some of the clinical years here in the states. Sounds to me like this is not quite an FMG school. However, even if it were, it doesn't matter.

 

[gluon999]

This thread is useless without stats.

 

[N-Surge]

Far from. If anything, I would hope this sort of thing would help encourage those who really want it.

Just goes to show it CAN be done, no matter ones situation.

 

[Chemiosmotic]

I recently transferred to at U.S. medical school from one of the caribbean medical schools. I wanted to weigh in on the situation.

When I was researching caribbean medical schools after college, I realized there were plenty of schools, but few good ones.

For all of you who want to say "no caribbean school is a good school" - I'm not saying that these programs are as good as U.S. allopathic medical schools. They are good in terms of preparing less-than-stellar applicants to take the boards, offer solid U.S. based clinical experiences during 3rd and 4th years, are successful at placing medical students into residencies in the United States and have many practicing physicians in the US and around the world. (SGU and Ross both have more current alumni practicing in the US than ANY other medical school in the United States)
Here are the most recent match lists:

SGU: https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2010/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY2&Count=-1

Ross: http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/residencyappointments.cfm

AUC: http://www.aucmed.edu/alumni/residency-appointments.html

That being said, the schools who consistently accomplish these parameters are the "Big 3" - St. George's University, Ross University and American University of the Caribbean. Notice, SABA does NOT fall into the "Big 3" but if there were a "Big 4", I'd certainly throw their name into the mix. They are a slightly newer school, and only recently attained the ability to practice in all 50 states.

SABA: http://www.saba.edu/forms/match2009_byspec.pdf

Without a doubt, the med students at any of these 3 or 4 caribbean medical schools (and I know students and residents from ALL of the schools listed above) are just as smart as many of their U.S. counterparts. That being said, caribbean medical students end up in the caribbean for a reason. They are often were not as strong in undergrad or on the MCAT as those at U.S. medical schools. The fact that they had to go outside the U.S. to attend medical school doesn't make them stupid, it makes them determined. I think the student from SABA who matched into Dermatology makes that point clear.

 

[psychforme]

Most of these cases involves a daddy PD or a daddy who knows a PD.

 

[Doublecortin]

Most of these cases involves a daddy PD or a daddy who knows a PD.

I agree, we the outsiders will never know about these things

 

[Substance]

This thread is useless without pics.

 

[Chemiosmotic]

This thread is useless without pics.

I know what you meant, but I thought I'd post this up anyway. St. George's University has one of the most beautiful campuses anywhere.

 

[asmallchild]

Most of these cases involves a daddy PD or a daddy who knows a PD.

It's not what you know, often, it's who you know.

And that goes for life, not just residency.

 

[Long Dong]

It's not what you know, often, it's who you know.

And that goes for life, not just residency.

Word.

 

[docspocky]

You took our job!

They took our job!

der-ka der !!

 

[N-Surge]

It is amusing that we should be having this conversation right now.

Also, I'd go as far as to say it is ALWAYS who you know. Who decided "if" we Matched this year? We Interns sure didn't... We only provided a profile. The faculty at the programs decided. The only thing we had a little control of was maybe "where" we ended up. And even then...

 

[Gute]

I know what you meant, but I thought I'd post this up anyway. St. George's University has one of the most beautiful campuses anywhere.

Why don't you do M3 and M4 at that "beautiful campus" or even in the same country? Seems to defeat the point....

 

[Chemiosmotic]

Why don't you do M3 and M4 at that "beautiful campus" or even in the same country? Seems to defeat the point....

I get a sense of sarcasm/disdain from your comment. If you feel that my comments were in some way inflammatory, I apologise.

The point for 95%+ of the students at Caribbean medical schools is to practice in the United States, not simply go to school in the caribbean for a couple of years. The teaching is geared toward the U.S. curriculum with a heavy emphasis on passing the boards. The M3 and M4 years place students at hospitals in the U.S. alongside students from U.S. Allopathic and Osteopathic schools in order to get similar training. Prior to transferring, I did rotations with students from Mt. Sinai, UMDNJ, SUNY Downstate, LECOM, NECOM, Drexel, etc...

In addition, the hospitals in the caribbean are often smaller and significantly less advanced than those in the states. There usually is only one major hospital per island. Patients often have to fly to a more developed island like Barbados or Trinidad for advanced surigcal proceedures and MRI's. There is also a problem with the number of M3 and M4 students that attend some caribbean schools. No way could any one hospital in the U.S. adequately train the 1,500 students enrolled in the M3 and M4 years at SGU or Ross, much less one in the caribbean.

In contrast, many U.S. students choose to do an international elective during their 4th year.

 

[Medstudentquest]

I recently transferred to at U.S. medical school from one of the caribbean medical schools. I wanted to weigh in on the situation.

When I was researching caribbean medical schools after college, I realized there were plenty of schools, but few good ones.

For all of you who want to say "no caribbean school is a good school" - I'm not saying that these programs are as good as U.S. allopathic medical schools. They are good in terms of preparing less-than-stellar applicants to take the boards, offer solid U.S. based clinical experiences during 3rd and 4th years, are successful at placing medical students into residencies in the United States and have many practicing physicians in the US and around the world. (SGU and Ross both have more current alumni practicing in the US than ANY other medical school in the United States)
Here are the most recent match lists:

SGU: https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2010/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY2&Count=-1

Ross: http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/residencyappointments.cfm

AUC: http://www.aucmed.edu/alumni/residency-appointments.html

That being said, the schools who consistently accomplish these parameters are the "Big 3" - St. George's University, Ross University and American University of the Caribbean. Notice, SABA does NOT fall into the "Big 3" but if there were a "Big 4", I'd certainly throw their name into the mix. They are a slightly newer school, and only recently attained the ability to practice in all 50 states.

SABA: http://www.saba.edu/forms/match2009_byspec.pdf

Without a doubt, the med students at any of these 3 or 4 caribbean medical schools (and I know students and residents from ALL of the schools listed above) are just as smart as many of their U.S. counterparts. That being said, caribbean medical students end up in the caribbean for a reason. They are often were not as strong in undergrad or on the MCAT as those at U.S. medical schools. The fact that they had to go outside the U.S. to attend medical school doesn't make them stupid, it makes them determined. I think the student from SABA who matched into Dermatology makes that point clear.

What's the deal with his/her name being "withheld"?

 

[Chemiosmotic]

What's the deal with his/her name being "withheld"?

Probably by request. I'd likely do the same thing in order to prevent students from all over the caribbean from contacting me. Plus, if they'd rather not disclose, why not honor that request?

 

[Medstudentquest]

Probably by request. I'd likely do the same thing in order to prevent students from all over the caribbean from contacting me. Plus, if they'd rather not disclose, why not honor that request?

I think the likelihood is that this is a case of daddy/mommy knowing the PD and given that it's derm, a great deal of unmatched applicants would feel it's highly unfair and would be royally upset, especially given the 2nd time around applicants in this cycle. Although it's very easy to find out just by looking at Loyola's website.

 

[Doublecortin]

I think the likelihood is that this is a case of daddy/mommy knowing the PD and given that it's derm, a great deal of unmatched applicants would feel it's highly unfair and would be royally upset, especially given the 2nd time around applicants in this cycle. Although it's very easy to find out just by looking at Loyola's website.

I agree wholeheartedly, program directors have an obligation to consider american trained applicants first. I don't care how smart this applicant was, he took a spot of an American trained student

 

[Medstudentquest]

I agree wholeheartedly, program directors have an obligation to consider american trained applicants first. I don't care how smart this applicant was, he took a spot of an American trained student

Absolutely. On the interview trail, I met people who were already applying for the second time around and some who were American grads with fellowships done/being done during the year, some with another grad degree, etc. Especially given that Loyola only has 2 spots, it pretty much means that anyone who applied had a very limited shot at getting in. I think if people found out who this person was, the person might get natygrams or something of the sort, because regardless of how good he/she was, the PD should have considered all the american grads that were graduating now or all the already graduated AMG's.

 

[asmallchild]

Absolutely. On the interview trail, I met people who were already applying for the second time around and some who were American grads with fellowships done/being done during the year, some with another grad degree, etc. Especially given that Loyola only has 2 spots, it pretty much means that anyone who applied had a very limited shot at getting in. I think if people found out who this person was, the person might get natygrams or something of the sort, because regardless of how good he/she was, the PD should have considered all the american grads that were graduating now or all the already graduated AMG's.

That really doesn't mean anything. If you weren't qualified enough the first time around, doing a fellowship only proves you're determined to become a dermatologist. It doesn't prove you're now qualified to become a dermatologist. It's why everyone says your first shot is your best shot.

 

[Medstudentquest]

That really doesn't mean anything. If you weren't qualified enough the first time around, doing a fellowship only proves you're determined to become a dermatologist. It doesn't prove you're now qualified to become a dermatologist. It's why everyone says your first shot is your best shot.

Disagree very much. "Qualifications" are completely subjective. Anyone who has made it through med school is realistically "qualified" to be a dermatologist, or just about any other type of doctor for that matter with the appropriate training. Just like with most competitive specialties, there are more interested applicants than there are spots. If you got a 270 on step 1, it doesn't mean that you'll somehow be better than someone with a 180 on step 1. Just means you are a better test taker, for a multitude of reasons. This is not to mention the fact that there are a ton of individuals with phenomenal "qualifications" if we speak number wise only who still don't get in. I know two people with 260+, AOA, research, pubs, etc. etc. that still didn't get in. Numbers are completely meaningless in the grand scheme of things as far as patient care goes. I also think that overall, half of derm applicants get in on a first attempt and from what i've seen, at least half of them get in on a second round. At least that's what I have seen.

 

[asmallchild]

Disagree very much. "Qualifications" are completely subjective. Anyone who has made it through med school is realistically "qualified" to be a dermatologist, or just about any other type of doctor for that matter with the appropriate training. Just like with most competitive specialties, there are more interested applicants than there are spots. If you got a 270 on step 1, it doesn't mean that you'll somehow be better than someone with a 180 on step 1. Just means you are a better test taker, for a multitude of reasons. This is not to mention the fact that there are a ton of individuals with phenomenal "qualifications" if we speak number wise only who still don't get in. I know two people with 260+, AOA, research, pubs, etc. etc. that still didn't get in. Numbers are completely meaningless in the grand scheme of things as far as patient care goes. I also think that overall, half of derm applicants get in on a first attempt and from what i've seen, at least half of them get in on a second round. At least that's what I have seen.

No it means the person with the 270 has a much larger fund of knowledge.

 

[Medstudentquest]

No it means the person with the 270 has a much larger fund of knowledge.

Not at all. Some people are better test takers, others are not, and there are countless reasons for that. Not to mention that it is silly to measure anyone's "qualification" based on a 1 day test. What is the point of medical school then if all that matters is step 1? And why do people who score really high on step 1 sometimes don't get in either? It's like saying that just because someone did not get into med school the first time around, he/she won't make a good doc. Same with derm. There are a great number of applicants who get in the second time around-are they really more "qualified" the second time around? Not really.

Also it's interesting to note that those who match into primary care, whether it is IM, peds, surg, etc., their fund of knowledge needs to be significantly larger than those matching into certain specialties, yet because of lack of competitiveness, board scores are much lower for these specialties.

 

[Octagonecology]

Has anyone considered that what is posted on the match sheet simply isn't true? Anyone can write anything on those sheets....doesn't mean there is actually a matched applicant behind it. I am skeptical, especially given that the "name is withheld".

 

[InvitroDerm]

Here's the Rochester link http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/smd/gme/prospective/dermatology/our_residents/current_residents.cfm One of them is a carib graduate. I was interested in carib grads (since I may go carib route) which is what led me to all this. After hearing about how competitive derm is, I became really interested in why the field accepts carib grads. Maybe they have 280 Step 1 scores.

 

[Medstudentquest]

Has anyone considered that what is posted on the match sheet simply isn't true? Anyone can write anything on those sheets....doesn't mean there is actually a matched applicant behind it. I am skeptical, especially given that the "name is withheld".

Why would the school do this though? It will be easy to see whether this is true or not shortly since the residents are posted on the website.

 

[Octagonecology]

Why would the school do this though? It will be easy to see whether this is true or not shortly since the residents are posted on the website.

Agreed. By the same token why would the school/applicant disguise their identity when their info would be posted when they start pgy2 as a derm resident?

I don't get it.

 

[Medstudentquest]

.

 

[ninjapenguin]

Not at all. Some people are better test takers, others are not, and there are countless reasons for that. Not to mention that it is silly to measure anyone's "qualification" based on a 1 day test. What is the point of medical school then if all that matters is step 1? And why do people who score really high on step 1 sometimes don't get in either? It's like saying that just because someone did not get into med school the first time around, he/she won't make a good doc. Same with derm. There are a great number of applicants who get in the second time around-are they really more "qualified" the second time around? Not really.

Also it's interesting to note that those who match into primary care, whether it is IM, peds, surg, etc., their fund of knowledge needs to be significantly larger than those matching into certain specialties, yet because of lack of competitiveness, board scores are much lower for these specialties.

It may be "silly" to you, but all of your medical qualifications will ALWAYS be based on one-day tests, be it the USMLEs or board certification exams for a given specialty. This isn't changing anytime soon, so you should stop complaining and better get used to it.

 

[Medstudentquest]

It may be "silly" to you, but all of your medical qualifications will ALWAYS be based on one-day tests, be it the USMLEs or board certification exams for a given specialty. This isn't changing anytime soon, so you should stop complaining and better get used to it.

No one is "complaining." I am stating facts, which is different. No one is more or less qualified based on a board exam. Not to mention that after Step 1, the rest of the exams/boards are pretty much meaningless.

 

[reno911]

No one is "complaining." I am stating facts, which is different. No one is more or less qualified based on a board exam. Not to mention that after Step 1, the rest of the exams/boards are pretty much meaningless.

You are not stating a fact, you are very clearly stating a common and wrong but politically correct opinion.

This is the same pablum that I constantly hear from people who do poorly on these exams. Maybe that describes you, maybe it doesn't. The point is that to say that "the exams are pretty much meaningless" makes no sense.

Obviously the tests are not everything. Obviously there are other more important skills.

However, do you really think that all other things being equal, a person that gets a 220 is going to be just as good a doctor as someone who gets a 270? Really?

Now, I'll grant that it's possible that sometimes someone with a 220 could be a smarter doc than someone than a 270. But in most cases, the 270 person will be better. Obviously not always, but that's a long way from "pretty much meaningless".

 

[Medstudentquest]

You are not stating a fact, you are very clearly stating a common and wrong but politically correct opinion.

This is the same pablum that I constantly hear from people who do poorly on these exams. Maybe that describes you, maybe it doesn't. The point is that to say that "the exams are pretty much meaningless" makes no sense.

Obviously the tests are not everything. Obviously there are other more important skills.

However, do you really think that all other things being equal, a person that gets a 220 is going to be just as good a doctor as someone who gets a 270? Really?

Now, I'll grant that it's possible that sometimes someone with a 220 could be a smarter doc than someone than a 270. But in most cases, the 270 person will be better. Obviously not always, but that's a long way from "pretty much meaningless".

I disagree completely. Why do primary care specialties, which in general require much larger fund of knowledge, usually have lower mean scores? Because they pay less. Do you really think that a 270 will make you a better doctor than a 220? Absolutely not.

Wouldn't it make sense then that people with higher board scores would go into primary care specialties that require a larger fund of knowledge vs a subspecialty? The same thing will the MCAT. The MCAT, whether someone got a 10 or a 40, will have no impact on the type of dr someone will become.

Further, what you learn for Step 1 and 2, much of it will be forgotten and potentially not used, depending on the specialty. Even the booklets say that. So based on the fact that 90% of that information will be forgotten/unused, what you are saying that someone with a 270 vs a 220 will be a better doctor seems silly to me. The same way that someone with a 40 MCAT will be no better than someone with a 30 MCAT.

 

[reno911]

I disagree completely. Why do primary care specialties, which in general require much larger fund of knowledge, usually have lower mean scores? Because they pay less. Do you really think that a 270 will make you a better doctor than a 220? Absolutely not.

Wouldn't it make sense then that people with higher board scores would go into primary care specialties that require a larger fund of knowledge vs a subspecialty? The same thing will the MCAT. The MCAT, whether someone got a 10 or a 40, will have no impact on the type of dr someone will become.

Further, what you learn for Step 1 and 2, much of it will be forgotten and potentially not used, depending on the specialty. Even the booklets say that. So based on the fact that 90% of that information will be forgotten/unused, what you are saying that someone with a 270 vs a 220 will be a better doctor seems silly to me. The same way that someone with a 40 MCAT will be no better than someone with a 30 MCAT.

This is so illogical, I'm not even sure where to start. But what the heck, I'll give it a shot. Many of the things you say are true, but conclusions you draw from these things makes no sense at all.

First you start with this:

Why do primary care specialties, which in general require much larger fund of knowledge, usually have lower mean scores? Because they pay less.

Problems with above:
1. Primary care specialties do not require a larger fund of knowledge, they require a broader fund of knowledge. Primary care physicians know a little (I don't mean this in a disparaging way, I just can't think of a better word at the moment) about a lot of different things. Dermatologists, on the other hand, know a lot about pretty much one thing. The absolute amount of knowledge required is probably on the same order of magnitude.

2. Even if we ignore the above problem, you do (or should) realize that it is possible for all of the following to be true at the same time:
A. Primary care specialties require a larger fund of knowledge
B. Primary care specialists have lower test scores
C. People with higher test scores, in general (not always), will make better physicians.

However, for some reason, you seem to think that if A&B are true, then C can't possibly be true. That's why you are illogical. If you are still having trouble understanding how it's possible for all three statements to be true, let me know and I'll try to help you out.

Now you continue with this pearl

Do you really think that a 270 will make you a better doctor than a 220 ? Absolutely not.

I'm not sure how I can make it simpler for you, but I'll try. First of all I don't think that a "270 will make you a better doctor than a 220". Below is what I actually think. Please tell me precisely which part (1 or 2) you disagree with so that I can simplify it further if needed.


1. If all of the other features of two applicants are similar, the person with the 270 is more likely to end up as a better physician than the person with the 220.

This should be obvious, but here's how I reach this conclusion. Once again we're assuming that all other things are pretty similar (i.e., assume two students who went to the same med school, got similar grades, are similarly personable). Only difference is that one scored a 270 and one scored a 220. There are three possibilities:
A. While it is not certain, the person with the 220 is more likely to end up a better physician (hopefully we can dismiss this one out of hand).
B. While it is not certain, the person with the 270 is more likely to end up a better physican (what I'm saying).
C. They both have a an equal chance of becoming a better physician. To put it another away, if you took a large population of such individuals, on average both groups would be EXACTLY equally good (what you're saying).

C of course is absurd. You don't think that the guy who got the 270 even has a miniscule better chance of becoming a better physician than the guy with the 220. Maybe he's a little smarter, maybe he studied a little harder, maybe he has a little better memory. You think that whatever skill that allowed the 270 guy to score so much higher can't possibly be helpful in making the 270 guy a better physician.

2. So why is what I said above different from what you think I'm saying? You, and I quote, think I'm saying that " think that a 270 will make you a better doctor than a 220. That's not what I'm saying at all, because there are other factors to consider. A 270 by itself will not necessarily make you a better doctor, because the 220 guy could have a bunch of valuable attributes that will make him turn out better. However, the score difference does have some meaning, in that it is one of the many factors to consider. You may think that it is less important, but there is no way that a rational person can think that it is "pretty much meaningless" (i.e., what you said). There's a big difference between something being of less importance and something being "pretty much meaningless".

So that's the crux of the problem. But I'll spend a little time dealing with the rest of the absurdities that you've posted.

You continue

Wouldn't it make sense then that people with higher board scores would go into primary care specialties that require a larger fund of knowledge vs a subspecialty?

No it wouldn't. First, primary care doesn't require more knowledge (just more breadth and less depth). But even if it did, just because you have a higher board score (and assume for the moment that having a higher board score means you are more knowledgable), it doesn't really mean that you you will choose a field that requires more knowledge. People choose their specialties for many reasons lifestyle, money, and most importantly interest in the field. To put it differently, it is possible for all of the below to be true

A. Primary care requires more knowledge
B. People with high board scores choose not to go into primary care.
C. People with high board scores have more knowledge

You seem to think that if A and B are true, then C cannot be true. However, all three can be true at the same time.

You go on

The same thing will the MCAT. The MCAT, whether someone got a 10 or a 40, will have no impact on the type of dr someone will become.

Apply the same reasoning that I used for the 270 vs 220 guy. If you said "less impact than you might think", I'd give you that. But "no impact" is absurd.

You continue

Further, what you learn for Step 1 and 2, much of it will be forgotten and potentially not used, depending on the specialty. Even the booklets say that. So based on the fact that 90% of that information will be forgotten/unused, what you are saying that someone with a 270 vs a 220 will be a better doctor seems silly to me. The same way that someone with a 40 MCAT will be no better than someone with a 30 MCAT.

The fact that a lot of the information will be forgotten is not that relevant. When I'm evaluating applications, the difference I see between a 270 guy and a 220 guy is that the 270 guy has demonstrated a better ability to learn and understand a lot of medical facts. This ability to learn will likely make him better able to learn as a derm resident, and probably make him a better physican in the future. The same skill he used to get a 270 is going to be what he needs to pass the derm boards (which are so much harder than the USMLE it's not even funny) and to learn all of the relatively obscure facts that needs to know in order to become a better dermatologist.

In other words, the main reason I favor the 270 guy is not because he "knows more" (even thout he probably does), it's because he is probably a 'more effective learner"

Hopefully that clears it up.

 

[ninjapenguin]

Not to mention that after Step 1, the rest of the exams/boards are pretty much meaningless.

Not true at all. Some of the specialty board certification exams have a 60-70% pass rate. I doubt you'd want to find yourself as one of the unfortunate souls to not become board certified... you'll probably have a difficult time finding a job.

 

[Elfy]

Absolutely. On the interview trail, I met people who were already applying for the second time around and some who were American grads with fellowships done/being done during the year, some with another grad degree, etc. Especially given that Loyola only has 2 spots, it pretty much means that anyone who applied had a very limited shot at getting in. I think if people found out who this person was, the person might get natygrams or something of the sort, because regardless of how good he/she was, the PD should have considered all the american grads that were graduating now or all the already graduated AMG's.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nasty%20gram

Why not focus on being the best applicant you can be instead of acting upset on behalf of your acquaintances who didn't match with (reportedly) stellar scores and credentials? Even if you saw all their score reports, you can't possibly know all they wrote in their PS, what they said on interviews, in a word what went wrong there. You can only know for sure what went wrong with YOUR application. Fix that first. If you think you have a solid knowledge fund but are a poor test-taker for whatever reason, either work on improving your speed/accuracy/general test-taking strategies with some non-USMLE multiple-choice tests (the GRE General Test comes to mind) or petition the NBME for special accommodations (extra time) since I believe you mentioned you have a learning disability. I am not very familiar with derm so I have no other suggestions on how to improve your application beyond the usual and what you're already doing (research, MPH etc.). FMGs/IMGs are definitely not what stands between YOU and YOUR dream. Please stop scapegoating them.

 

[Medstudentquest]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nasty gram

Why not focus on being the best applicant you can be instead of acting upset on behalf of your acquaintances who didn't match with (reportedly) stellar scores and credentials? Even if you saw all their score reports, you can't possibly know all they wrote in their PS, what they said on interviews, in a word what went wrong there. You can only know for sure what went wrong with YOUR application. Fix that first. If you think you have a solid knowledge fund but are a poor test-taker for whatever reason, either work on improving your speed/accuracy/general test-taking strategies with some non-USMLE multiple-choice tests (the GRE General Test comes to mind) or petition the NBME for special accommodations (extra time) since I believe you mentioned you have a learning disability. I am not very familiar with derm so I have no other suggestions on how to improve your application beyond the usual and what you're already doing (research, MPH etc.). FMGs/IMGs are definitely not what stands between YOU and YOUR dream. Please stop scapegoating them.

I have no idea why you are talking about me, as I did not refer to myself at all in this thread. What I did/do and what I will/will not match into is not the problem here. I find the other poster's assumptions preposterous. I think standardized testing-from MCAT's to USMLE to just about every other test-insignificant. they are hurdles that need to be passed, sure, but they mean nothing. Not everyone has the same retention, reading speed, not everyone has the same test, not everyone was born speaking English, etc. etc. The variables are so many that's it's not even funny. So stating that someone with a higher score will be a better physician, when a great deal of the knowledge/know who of medicine is learned during residency and beyond, is preposterous to me.

Again, this thread is not about me, not sure why you are making it about me? Just like someone else posted, PD's should give priority to american grads without a doubt and I feel the same way. I don't see where there is even an argument there?

You don't have to agree with me, and again, this thread is not about me so please don't make it so.

 

[Medstudentquest]

Not true at all. Some of the specialty board certification exams have a 60-70% pass rate. I doubt you'd want to find yourself as one of the unfortunate souls to not become board certified... you'll probably have a difficult time finding a job.

No one said you don't have to pass your specialty boards. Not sure why you are bringing that up. Nevertheless, unless you don't pass them, no one will ever realistically care in the program you are in, especially if you don't specialize. PD's don't care now about step 2 once you've matched and even less about step 3.

 

[Chemiosmotic]

I agree wholeheartedly, program directors have an obligation to consider american trained applicants first. I don't care how smart this applicant was, he took a spot of an American trained student

No such obligation exists. Even though dermatology rarely takes applicants trained in foreign schools, to suggest that extraordinarily qualified foreign grads should never be given the opportunity to be seriously considered is unethical.

The purpose of the residency match is to allow residency to fill their spots with the best and most desired candidates. The U.S. has quite a few highly desirable candidates, which is why they fill 99%+ of the Dermatology residency spots. They do not, however, have ALL the highly desirable candidates.

If by the grace of God, I match into Dermatology from the U.S. school I now attend, I will be no better trained or more knowledgeable as a Dermatologist than MYSELF as a hypothetical foreign grad.

 

[asmallchild]

No such obligation exists. Even though dermatology rarely takes applicants trained in foreign schools, to suggest that extraordinarily qualified foreign grads should never be given the opportunity to be seriously considered is unethical.

The purpose of the residency match is to allow residency to fill their spots with the best and most desired candidates. The U.S. has quite a few highly desirable candidates, which is why they fill 99%+ of the Dermatology residency spots. They do not, however, have ALL the highly desirable candidates.

If by the grace of God, I match into Dermatology from the U.S. school I now attend, I will be no better trained or more knowledgeable as a Dermatologist than MYSELF as a hypothetical foreign grad.

Well said.

 

[Doublecortin]

No such obligation exists. Even though dermatology rarely takes applicants trained in foreign schools, to suggest that extraordinarily qualified foreign grads should never be given the opportunity to be seriously considered is unethical.

The purpose of the residency match is to allow residency to fill their spots with the best and most desired candidates. The U.S. has quite a few highly desirable candidates, which is why they fill 99%+ of the Dermatology residency spots. They do not, however, have ALL the highly desirable candidates.

If by the grace of God, I match into Dermatology from the U.S. school I now attend, I will be no better trained or more knowledgeable as a Dermatologist than MYSELF as a hypothetical foreign grad.

It absolutely does exist. Derm residency positions are funded with medicare funds, and thus are indirectly paid for with US taxpayer money, and thus all program directors have an absolutely obligation to the US taxpayers to give priority to US medical school graduates.

I am not saying that foreign trained MDs should never be given consideration. In cases where a person was a phenomenal researcher in his/her country with countless high impact publications should be given consideration because of his/her extraordinary promise to significantly advance the field here in the US.

But this is obviously not the case here. This person from SABA went there because he/she couldn't get into an US med school, and should not have taken place of a US grad.

 

[reno911]

No such obligation exists. Even though dermatology rarely takes applicants trained in foreign schools, to suggest that extraordinarily qualified foreign grads should never be given the opportunity to be seriously considered is unethical.

The purpose of the residency match is to allow residency to fill their spots with the best and most desired candidates. The U.S. has quite a few highly desirable candidates, which is why they fill 99%+ of the Dermatology residency spots. They do not, however, have ALL the highly desirable candidates.

If by the grace of God, I match into Dermatology from the U.S. school I now attend, I will be no better trained or more knowledgeable as a Dermatologist than MYSELF as a hypothetical foreign grad.

Yeah, I agree totally.

Unfortunately, for many foriegn medical grads, there is a stereotype that all foriegn medical grads are in some way inferior. Not sure where it comes from. Part of it may be the fact that they're so hard to evaluate because we're not familiar with their medical education and grading systems, so it's difficult to tell the good ones from the great ones.

 

[Medstudentquest]

It absolutely does exist. Derm residency positions are funded with medicare funds, and thus are indirectly paid for with US taxpayer money, and thus all program directors have an absolutely obligation to the US taxpayers to give priority to US medical school graduates.

I am not saying that foreign trained MDs should never be given consideration. In cases where a person was a phenomenal researcher in his/her country with countless high impact publications should be given consideration because of his/her extraordinary promise to significantly advance the field here in the US.

But this is obviously not the case here. This person from SABA went there because he/she couldn't get into an US med school, and should not have taken place of a US grad.

Absolutely. Not to mention that there is a reason why many students go to Caribbean schools-because they can't get into a school in the US!! I find it kind of odd that other posters talk about how standardized scores supposedly are so indicative of the quality of doctors, which of course is not the case, but should we forget then that these students going to Caribbean schools likely had subpar MCAT scores and could not get in because they were not as qualified as other students?

Like you state, this person went to SABA, which is not even a "good" Caribbean school because he/she did not have the MCAT, grades, etc. to make it into a US school. Absolutely agree with you on the issue that the person from SABA should not have gotten in. Even if they were a great applicant, great derm applicants are a dime a dozen here.

 

[Medstudentquest]

Yeah, I agree totally.

Unfortunately, for many foriegn medical grads, there is a stereotype that all foriegn medical grads are in some way inferior. Not sure where it comes from. Part of it may be the fact that they're so hard to evaluate because we're not familiar with their medical education and grading systems, so it's difficult to tell the good ones from the great ones.

This is the US, therefore, US students should have priority. I find it highly unlikely that there was no good US student who would not have been qualified enough to get that spot. Foreign countries don't fund residencies here, taxpayers here do however. If you try to go to Canada or any other country, you'll likely end up without a residency because they give priority to their students, just like they should.

Weren't you the one who said that standarized scores were the indication of what type of doctor a student would be? Although i find this argument to be without sense, let's not forget that these students had to go to the Caribbean because they couldn't make it with their sub par test scores here in a US medical school. You are contradicting yourself, because otherwise, your previous statements about the significance of test scores falls apart.

So we are going to give some of the most coveted spots to people who were not even "qualified" enough to get into med school in the first place, either on their first or multiple tries, and had to go to the Caribbean to get a medical education?

Wow.

 

[Chemiosmotic]

It absolutely does exist. Derm residency positions are funded with medicare funds, and thus are indirectly paid for with US taxpayer money, and thus all program directors have an absolutely obligation to the US taxpayers to give priority to US medical school graduates.

I am not saying that foreign trained MDs should never be given consideration. In cases where a person was a phenomenal researcher in his/her country with countless high impact publications should be given consideration because of his/her extraordinary promise to significantly advance the field here in the US.

But this is obviously not the case here. This person from SABA went there because he/she couldn't get into an US med school, and should not have taken place of a US grad.

For as much as you would apparently like an obligation to exist, and to the extent that I obviously believe one does not, I will remind you of the numerous foreign trained physicians already practicing in the area of dermatology. I personally know a handful (given most of them went to school in the 60's and 70's when Derm was MUCH less competitive) who currently have thriving practices. More importantly, they have helped a lot of patients improve both the quality and span of their life.

Just because a residency becomes more competitive over the years does not mean program directors must reserve a particular residency according to your pre-determined, deserving inclusion set. Just because it's your opinion, does not mean that it's the prevailing theory or right thing for medical education in the United States.

It's a slippery slope. Do you think that when you start a snowball rolling that you always know where it will go?

While you are selecting out subsets of the population who are "worthy" of a dermatology residency why don't we go looking at some of these examples of problems that this type of thinking can lead to.

Nightmare examples:
1. What if one were to say that anyone attending a non-Ivy medical school should be disqualified because they were not smart enough to get into a Ivy league school.

2. What if one were to say anyone going to a D.O. school should be automatically disqualified from consideration because they couldn't get into an Allopathic school.

3. What if one said anyone ever attending a Foreign school should be disqualified even if they transferred to a U.S. school because they should carry the shame of attending a foreign school forever.

4. What if one said any foreign national attending graduating from a U.S. medical school should be disqualified because they are taking a U.S. spot

5. What if there were residencies who only considered their own students for their spots?

6. What if Beth Israel Deaconess or Cedar's only considered Jewish students or Duke only Methodist because only "they" know the "right" way to practice medicine?


I don't know about you, but I'll take the current system of taking the BEST candidates over any system based on preconceived notions.

 

[Chemiosmotic]

Well said.

I appreciate the vote of confidence.

 

[reno911]

It absolutely does exist. Derm residency positions are funded with medicare funds, and thus are indirectly paid for with US taxpayer money, and thus all program directors have an absolutely obligation to the US taxpayers to give priority to US medical school graduates.

I am not saying that foreign trained MDs should never be given consideration. In cases where a person was a phenomenal researcher in his/her country with countless high impact publications should be given consideration because of his/her extraordinary promise to significantly advance the field here in the US.

But this is obviously not the case here. This person from SABA went there because he/she couldn't get into an US med school, and should not have taken place of a US grad.

I thought that someone may think this way, but here's some things to consider:

1. If you really think that the obligation is to the "US taxpayer", then you should definitely not be discriminating against superior foriegn medical graduates.

You're right that US tax payer money is used for most of the spots. But in taking a worse applicant just because he is is American you are actually hurting the US taxpayer. What tax payer am I talking about? Well that would be the vast majority of the presumptive dermatologist's future patients. They are almost all US Taxpayers and they deserve the best trained dermatologists for their money. So if you take an inferior american over a superior foriegn grad, you are helping one tax payer at the expense of thousands (the patients).

2. Now if you're thinking about a foriegn grad that wants to leave the US, then I'd accept your tax payer argument. But, in reality, virtually all the foriegn medical grads want to stay in the US. Thus they would be helping US tax payers. If we're talking about a foriegn grad that planned to practice in another country, then I agree that such people should be given less preference. However, If you believe your own argument, you should similarly give lower preference to American grads who wanted to practice in another country.

3. Not all residency spots are funded by US taxpayers (especially derm). Now most are (probably about 80-90%), but certainly not all. For the spots that are funded by private hospitals or groups, no such obligation to tax payers (my interpretation or yours) exists.

4. This thread started about a graduate of a foriegn medical school. Just because one goes to a foriegn medical school doesn't mean he (and his family) aren't American and aren't tax payers. In fact, I bet that the person referred to in the original post is probably an American.

 

[reno911]

This is the US, therefore, US students should have priority. I find it highly unlikely that there was no good US student who would not have been qualified enough to get that spot. Foreign countries don't fund residencies here, taxpayers here do however. If you try to go to Canada or any other country, you'll likely end up without a residency because they give priority to their students, just like they should.

Weren't you the one who said that standarized scores were the indication of what type of doctor a student would be? Although i find this argument to be without sense, let's not forget that these students had to go to the Caribbean because they couldn't make it with their sub par test scores here in a US medical school. You are contradicting yourself, because otherwise, your previous statements about the significance of test scores falls apart.

So we are going to give some of the most coveted spots to people who were not even "qualified" enough to get into med school in the first place, either on their first or multiple tries, and had to go to the Caribbean to get a medical education?

Wow.

Dude, you have a habit of misinterpreting people in such a horrible way just so you can find a way to disagree with them.

I can't tell if you are doing it on purpose or just being dense. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it is the former.

Once again, to be clear:

1. I think test scores are important.
2. I think that highly qualified foriegn applicants should be given preference over lesser qualified americans.
3. If this particular individual (SABA grad) is, as you say, someone who was not qualified enough to get into med school in the first place, then I doubt they deserved a spot and I would NOT support their acceptance to a derm residency program. This type of person is clearly NOT the type of highly qualified foriegn grad that I'm talking about.