deleted

[Splenda88]

Would be great to hit the 5m mark someday. This horrible interest rate environment may cause my future mortage to be in the 5-6k range which is a lot in the midwest. Median house price in my area for a 30 yr is about 4k/mo to put things in perspective.

Why would you have a 5-6k mortgage in the midwest? You are talking about a 800k home price.

I am going to say that again: Beyond 2500 sqft home for a family of 4 is overkill. I don't get why Americans are obsessed with big home.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Why would you have a 5-6k mortgage in the midwest? You are talking about a 800k home price.

I am going to say that again: Beyond 2500 sqft home for a family of 4 is overkill. I don't get why Americans are obsessed with big home.

i live in a very booming area. Median house price is 600k and climbing which is a lot for midwest. I want a newer house with great schools. You pay a premium for that.

I strongly disagree about the space. I have lived in a 2000 sq feet condo alone and felt it was good space but def not too much. Now I am married and work 12 hours from home at times and find it intolerable and space constrained and wife will also be working from home. Unless you work from home you don't realize you need a lot of space to function. You can't be confined to a small office all day. Also, likely to have visitors 1x-2x a month as both have lots of family and visitors comes with kids sometimes staying 3-5 days at a time.

Yes a 5-6k mortgage sucks but 4k mortgage is for a median house in the area. This will be the only thing I am considering to indulge in. I am debt free now so 1k-2k indulgence on an appreciating asset isn't the worse thing imo.

 

[jbomba]

Would be great to hit the 5m mark someday. This horrible interest rate environment may cause my future mortage to be in the 5-6k range which is a lot in the midwest. Median house price in my area for a 30 yr is about 4k/mo to put things in perspective.

The thing I struggle with is determining how much I really need to retire. Assuming the home is paid off or I downsize, I still can't determine what I actually need in retirement. How did you go about calculating for 5 million?

 

[finalpsychyear]

The thing I struggle with is determining how much I really need to retire. Assuming the home is paid off or I downsize, I still can't determine what I actually need in retirement. How did you go about calculating for 5 million?

No one knows the real number. I simply started with 25x (2.5m) then x 2 in case we hit a major recession and your portfolio drops 30-40 percent you would go from 5m to 2.5 ish neighborhood though it may not be so drastic that was sort of what i decided to shoot for. I also like the math of a 6% return on 5m giving close to a psych salary.

Also, I think its useless thinking about a paid off house as it is usually a poor choice vs investing due to better long term returns and i am not planning to work 20-30 more years since i don't even have a house yet. So think about the number with your mortgage included. Also timeline matters. I feel having 5m 10 years from now is not the same as reaching it in 2-3 years due to inflation.

By no means am i saying I have reached any of these milestones but someone on the younger side (sub 40) thinking about FI or FIRE without a family or house I would say that would be a starting point. This is also different if i was 58 yo with a house that may be paid off in 5-7 years, kids who are settled in life, about to qualify for SS then I would be more comfortable with 25x in safer investments. I also think the 4% rule is likely now the 3% rule for planning purposes.

 

[Stagg737]

If you mean top 15 by population (assuming you mean metro area), then I can only see Detroit fitting into that price range. If you mean top 15 just by city population, maybe Jacksonville, Indy, and Columbus would be on the list. If you mean top 15 by desirability than I think no cities fit that. 4-5k sq foot new construction is just not costing under a million in 2023 in even average cost of living areas, unless you are putting new construction into rough to average neighborhoods.

This doesn't detract from you point that living in cali makes it take longer to FIRE, but you can't be expecting 4500 sq ft new construction for under a million in even reasonably desirably cities in this day and age. A million dollar house does not mean what it used to.

Strongly disagree with parts of the bolded, where I'm at may not be a "top 10" city in terms of desirability, but it's on several lists and some of the suburbs regularly make top places for XYZ in terms of living. You can get 4000-4500 sq ft constructions starting in the 600-700k range (though hard to find) and can easily find 4000 sq ft places for under $1 mil (Average was around $750k). I know because we recently bought a house and considered this, but we wanted to pay significantly less, which we did for a similar sized house built 20 years ago. I agree with your last sentence, but these places do exist if you know certain metros well enough.

Kitchen updates, bathroom updates, pool, deck, spa, pool repair, plumbing repairs, sewer repairs, landscaping, gardener, tree trimmer, retaining wall repair, drainage repair, trash, water, a lot of people are currently paying $1k+/mo for utilities unless they have solar in which case they paid $30k for solar. It’s endless and everything is more expensive in a 2.5mil house because they know it’s a 2.5mil house in an expensive neighborhood. A lot out the condo buildings in town have monthly maintenance fees of $2k and that seems like a bargain.

Not saying it’s different in the Midwest. Wherever you buy a house, you need be prepared to pay a lot more than PITI.

It is different in the midwest. The early repairs that are bolded are 100% avoidable and unnecessary. Our house is >4,000 sq ft and our monthly utilities are <$600/mo even in frigid months. We don't have solar at this time, but I'd like to eventually get it if reasonable. Montly maintenance costs of $2k/mo is insane to me. We pay HOA ~$650/yr for pretty nice upkeep and a decent pool. What you're describing sounds awful.

Yes, there are more costs to buying a house than PITI and reading a lot of news stories on housing recently it sounds like the general public is very ignorant about being homeowners. There's also the factor of how much you're willing to do yourself vs what you want to pay others to do. I've partially remodeled a bathroom (mostly) on my own before after our dog destroyed it. Small updates can make a huge difference. Obviously there's a big difference if you're talking about gutting a room and starting from scratch, but that's something that should be considered when you buy the property.

I live in southern California. Just to give you real examples, in the past month I paid $2500 for tree trimming/yard cleanup after our recent rains, $1700 for high pressure sewer flush, and $900 to replace a faulty circuit board on a high end built in microwave/oven combo (it would have cost 5-6k to replace it.). This was after receiving multiple bids for each item.

Beach cottages require tons of upkeep due to the salt and moisture.

This is all avoidable or price can be minimized. You don't have to pay someone to clean your yard or trim your trees unless they're very tall. $1700 for pressure flush is high, just googled cost for my area and average is ~$500. That microwave oven repair cost also seems very high. You could easily replace something like that for <$2500, but if that's what the part costs, then c'est la vie.

Why would you have a 5-6k mortgage in the midwest? You are talking about a 800k home price.

I am going to say that again: Beyond 2500 sqft home for a family of 4 is overkill. I don't get why Americans are obsessed with big home.

Another person gave their example, but plenty of reasons. My spouse works from home and I also use a separate home office. We want to have at least 1 guest room available for when family visits, each kid gets their own room. That's 5-6 bedrooms needed right there, so 1-1.5k sq feet. Like cooking and want a nice kitchen? There's another 400-500+ sq ft. Finished basement? Add another 500-1000 sq ft or more. Dining room? Laundry room? 3+ bathrooms? Connected garage? It's really not that hard to hit 2,500 sq ft, and 3,000+ sq ft really isn't always as large as it seems, certainly not a "mansion".

 

[Splenda88]

Another person gave their example, but plenty of reasons. My spouse works from home and I also use a separate home office. We want to have at least 1 guest room available for when family visits, each kid gets their own room. That's 5-6 bedrooms needed right there, so 1-1.5k sq feet. Like cooking and want a nice kitchen? There's another 400-500+ sq ft. Finished basement? Add another 500-1000 sq ft or more. Dining room? Laundry room? 3+ bathrooms? Connected garage? It's really not that hard to hit 2,500 sq ft, and 3,000+ sq ft really isn't always as large as it seems, certainly not a "mansion".

I dont include connected garage in square footage calculation. I only count sqft under AC.

Maybe I am a minimalist. Our kitchen (family of 4) is 14"x15" and a 1/3 of the cabinets is empty. We have an extra bedroom with nothing in it. I guess it's a big upgrade coming from 2br/2ba 1100 sqft apartment.

Our home size is ~2400 sqft if connected garage is included, but I like to think it's ~2000 w/o the garage sqft. Boy! having a 2-car garage to park our cars is great (not getting wet anymore when it's raining).

 

[nimbus]

Strongly disagree with parts of the bolded, where I'm at may not be a "top 10" city in terms of desirability, but it's on several lists and some of the suburbs regularly make top places for XYZ in terms of living. You can get 4000-4500 sq ft constructions starting in the 600-700k range (though hard to find) and can easily find 4000 sq ft places for under $1 mil (Average was around $750k). I know because we recently bought a house and considered this, but we wanted to pay significantly less, which we did for a similar sized house built 20 years ago. I agree with your last sentence, but these places do exist if you know certain metros well enough.



It is different in the midwest. The early repairs that are bolded are 100% avoidable and unnecessary. Our house is >4,000 sq ft and our monthly utilities are <$600/mo even in frigid months. We don't have solar at this time, but I'd like to eventually get it if reasonable. Montly maintenance costs of $2k/mo is insane to me. We pay HOA ~$650/yr for pretty nice upkeep and a decent pool. What you're describing sounds awful.

Yes, there are more costs to buying a house than PITI and reading a lot of news stories on housing recently it sounds like the general public is very ignorant about being homeowners. There's also the factor of how much you're willing to do yourself vs what you want to pay others to do. I've partially remodeled a bathroom (mostly) on my own before after our dog destroyed it. Small updates can make a huge difference. Obviously there's a big difference if you're talking about gutting a room and starting from scratch, but that's something that should be considered when you buy the property.



This is all avoidable or price can be minimized. You don't have to pay someone to clean your yard or trim your trees unless they're very tall. $1700 for pressure flush is high, just googled cost for my area and average is ~$500. That microwave oven repair cost also seems very high. You could easily replace something like that for <$2500, but if that's what the part costs, then c'est la vie.



Another person gave their example, but plenty of reasons. My spouse works from home and I also use a separate home office. We want to have at least 1 guest room available for when family visits, each kid gets their own room. That's 5-6 bedrooms needed right there, so 1-1.5k sq feet. Like cooking and want a nice kitchen? There's another 400-500+ sq ft. Finished basement? Add another 500-1000 sq ft or more. Dining room? Laundry room? 3+ bathrooms? Connected garage? It's really not that hard to hit 2,500 sq ft, and 3,000+ sq ft really isn't always as large as it seems, certainly not a "mansion".

Can’t argue with your first hand experience. I was just describing mine. I’m in California so it’s not a surprise that everything costs more here. And I know I could go to Costco and get a brand new countertop microwave for $100.

 

[Stagg737]

I dont include connected garage in square footage calculation. I only count sqft under AC.

Maybe I am a minimalist. Our kitchen (family of 4) is 14"x15" and a 1/3 of the cabinets is empty. We have an extra bedroom with nothing in it. I guess it's a big upgrade coming from 2br/2ba 1100 sqft apartment.

Our home size is ~2400 sqft if connected garage is included, but I like to think it's ~2000 w/o the garage sqft. Boy! having a 2-car garage to park our cars is great (not getting wet anymore when it's raining).

I would actually consider myself a minimalist as well, but I just like having space. My spouse is most definitely not a minimalist though, and we are both pretty terrible about getting rid of stuff, so having places to put things is necessary. Also, once you have more space, it's often difficult to downsize. Our initial apartment was basically what you described. We've moved around a bit out of necessity and have gradually upsized to where we're at now. We could certainly move back down to 2500ish sq ft (like our last house), but we have no reason to since our current place is so affordable and we've got plenty of space to work with.

Your kitchen is actually about average for a house and I'd say is probably great for most. I'd argue that if you really love cooking/baking though, having more space to work is necessary, especially if you want to have a functional island in your kitchen. 2-3 car garage is a game changer imo, especially if you live somewhere with actual seasons (ie, snow).

Can’t argue with your first hand experience. I was just describing mine. I’m in California so it’s not a surprise that everything costs more here. And I know I could go to Costco and get a brand new countertop microwave for $100.

Fair, I'm not trying to come across as confrontational or anything, I just find the things some people consider "necessary" interesting. I watched "My Lottery Dream Home" for a while and it's interesting to hear/see some of the things some people consider the norm. For example, someone was looking for $300-400k houses in Cali and they weren't a fan of one house that was <2000 sq ft because the backyard didn't have a swimming pool and they acted like not having a backyard pool was really abnormal/weird. It's just so strange to me that a family with kids would take something that's ~1500 sq ft with a backyard pool over something that's a little larger with a neighborhood pool.

I also read an article about a guy living in NYC who moved there for a job that paid the same as a previous job and he was paying something like $1500-2,000/mo in rent to live in a studio apartment that was so small he couldn't even lay down in his bed unless he was diagonal with his feet hanging off and he shared a common bathroom with several other tenants living on that floor.

I get that everyone's got their own priorities, but some people's decisions and perceived needs just see bizarre to me. Like they almost flip Maslow's hierarchy on it's head...

 

[nimbus]

Fair, I'm not trying to come across as confrontational or anything, I just find the things some people consider "necessary" interesting. I watched "My Lottery Dream Home" for a while and it's interesting to hear/see some of the things some people consider the norm. For example, someone was looking for $300-400k houses in Cali and they weren't a fan of one house that was <2000 sq ft because the backyard didn't have a swimming pool and they acted like not having a backyard pool was really abnormal/weird. It's just so strange to me that a family with kids would take something that's ~1500 sq ft with a backyard pool over something that's a little larger with a neighborhood pool.

That show must have been from 20 years ago because a 2000sf house is 1-3 million these days depending on the area. This is what you can get for $400k. The complex is full of tenant occupied units. The only homes in the county that are $300k or less are mobile homes.

6070 Rancho Mission Rd #437, San Diego, CA 92108 - 1 bed/1 bath

(SDMLS) Sold: 1 bed, 1 bath, 530 sq. ft. condo located at 6070 Rancho Mission Rd #437, San Diego, CA 92108 sold for $405,000 on Apr 20, 2023. MLS# 230005664. Welcome Home! This interior facing, ground floo...

redf.in

 

[whopper]

Any job I've seen you got to figure the good and bad in it and you won't know that good and bad ahead of time. It's not a "It makes this much money" or it's inpatient or outpatient or locum or whatever that'll tip you off it it's good or bad.

Only time I've seen across the board generalities are the VA cause the rules are consistent with the VA across the country.

 

[Merovinge]

Strongly disagree with parts of the bolded, where I'm at may not be a "top 10" city in terms of desirability, but it's on several lists and some of the suburbs regularly make top places for XYZ in terms of living. You can get 4000-4500 sq ft constructions starting in the 600-700k range (though hard to find) and can easily find 4000 sq ft places for under $1 mil (Average was around $750k). I know because we recently bought a house and considered this, but we wanted to pay significantly less, which we did for a similar sized house built 20 years ago. I agree with your last sentence, but these places do exist if you know certain metros well enough.

To make sure I wasn't losing my mind, I entered a zillow search for >4000 sq ft, <1 million bucks, and built in 2022 or newer. I then checked Nashville, Philly, Denver, Austin, Charlotte, and Atlanta. The only places that come up all have school districts all rated at or below 5/10 and significant distances from the city center (except for Charlotte, there were a few options in the South Carolina suburbs that had high ranked schools in the 900k range). Average for 4000 sq feet is absolutely not 750k. Real estate is certainly not a perfectly efficient market but the cost of new homes is the cost of new homes, it's not about knowing an area "well" unless you mean having actual ties to the building industry that is getting you less than market prices.

 

[Splenda88]

Your kitchen is actually about average for a house and I'd say is probably great for most. I'd argue that if you really love cooking/baking though, having more space to work is necessary, especially if you want to have a functional island in your kitchen. 2-3 car garage is a game changer imo, especially if you live somewhere with actual seasons (ie, snow).

The is no actual season where I am except that it rains often. Despite not having actual season, I dont see myself ever living in house without at least 2-car attached garage (as long as I am financially capable).

 

[Stagg737]

To make sure I wasn't losing my mind, I entered a zillow search for >4000 sq ft, <1 million bucks, and built in 2022 or newer. I then checked Nashville, Philly, Denver, Austin, Charlotte, and Atlanta. The only places that come up all have school districts all rated at or below 5/10 and significant distances from the city center (except for Charlotte, there were a few options in the South Carolina suburbs that had high ranked schools in the 900k range). Average for 4000 sq feet is absolutely not 750k. Real estate is certainly not a perfectly efficient market but the cost of new homes is the cost of new homes, it's not about knowing an area "well" unless you mean having actual ties to the building industry that is getting you less than market prices.

I can DM you if you want for the city I'm referring to. The same Zillow search where I'm talking about yields 5 options below $1 mil with 3 of them below $900k all with school ratings >7/10 within 30 minutes of downtown at the farthest. I will say that we looked at some new constructions through companies that built friend's homes if you call that "connections" in the industry, but pretty sure we weren't getting any discounts. Two of those companies also aren't advertising on Zillow, seems like they didn't need to, which is what I was referring to when I said "knowing the area".

I also question the legitimacy of Zillow's school ratings though, as it rates the HS my kid will attend as 6/10 which is quite a bit lower than it should be (per multiple other rating sites like US News) while his elementary school is rated as 10/10 and I find that to be a pretty generous rating.

Zillow is also not a great site to look at for new constructions. 2 of the neighborhoods we looked at don't even exist on Zillow yet and there have been houses there since at the latest 2020. Again, happy to DM you the city and specific neighborhoods/companies I'm talking about, but unless prices have gone up 20% in the past 6-8 months, I looked at 3-4 places that were around 4,000 sq ft with base prices around $700k.

That show must have been from 20 years ago because a 2000sf house is 1-3 million these days depending on the area. This is what you can get for $400k. The complex is full of tenant occupied units. The only homes in the county that are $300k or less are mobile homes.

6070 Rancho Mission Rd #437, San Diego, CA 92108 - 1 bed/1 bath

(SDMLS) Sold: 1 bed, 1 bath, 530 sq. ft. condo located at 6070 Rancho Mission Rd #437, San Diego, CA 92108 sold for $405,000 on Apr 20, 2023. MLS# 230005664. Welcome Home! This interior facing, ground floo...

redf.in

Pretty sure it was nowhere near the bay area, just in some California suburb. Episode was sometime between 2017-2019. That listing is disgusting imo. $750/sq foot for <600 sq feet is insanity.

 

[psychmd03]

The thing I struggle with is determining how much I really need to retire. Assuming the home is paid off or I downsize, I still can't determine what I actually need in retirement. How did you go about calculating for 5 million?

There are a lot of ways to guess the 4% rule (divide your expected yearly expenses), 25x yearly expensese. Or simulators if you want to plot it. Monte carlo simulation or more complex calculators. In the end they all give you statistical guesses.

Personally I'd hedge on the higher end of the simulations or numbers. Sounds like if you truly think your spend is 300K yearly you will want 8+ mil

 

[psychmd03]

I dont include connected garage in square footage calculation. I only count sqft under AC.

Maybe I am a minimalist. Our kitchen (family of 4) is 14"x15" and a 1/3 of the cabinets is empty. We have an extra bedroom with nothing in it. I guess it's a big upgrade coming from 2br/2ba 1100 sqft apartment.

Our home size is ~2400 sqft if connected garage is included, but I like to think it's ~2000 w/o the garage sqft. Boy! having a 2-car garage to park our cars is great (not getting wet anymore when it's raining).

Dang as a single guy that kitchen would be on the small side for what I would want and I would have all the cabinets full. It also at this point in my life needs an island as well. Minimalist to me more pertains to things and clutter. I would put myself in that category but as others have said I like space. If I am cooking with someone or just generally in a house living with someone or even entertaining I don't want to be ping-ponging off each other and I want distinct spaces with space. Maybe I am just claustrophobic and need more space to feel comfortable.

 

[Splenda88]

Dang as a single guy that kitchen would be on the small side for what I would want and I would have all the cabinets full. It also at this point in my life needs an island as well. Minimalist to me more pertains to things and clutter. I would put myself in that category but as others have said I like space. If I am cooking with someone or just generally in a house living with someone or even entertaining I don't want to be ping-ponging off each other and I want distinct spaces with space. Maybe I am just claustrophobic and need more space to feel comfortable.

Only my spouse does the cooking. Lol... She does not feel it's a small kitchen

I guess that was what I could get for the $$$ I was willing to spend.

 

[clausewitz2]

Only my spouse does cooking. Lol... She does not feel it's a small kitchen

I guess that was what I could get for the $$$ I was willing to spend.

View attachment 368909


View attachment 368908

What kind of sick and twisted monster has kitchen counters with so little clutter on them?

 

[nimbus]

Pretty sure it was nowhere near the bay area, just in some California suburb. Episode was sometime between 2017-2019. That listing is disgusting imo. $750/sq foot for <600 sq feet is insanity.

It’s San Diego, not the Bay. And yeah it’s a low end complex where most of the owners rent out the units. The location is very convenient. The price is reasonable since it can be rented out for $3k/month. A year ago there were no listings in the county under 500k except for mobile homes.

 

[psychmd03]

Only my spouse does cooking. Lol... She does not feel it's a small kitchen

I guess that was what I could get for the $$$ I was willing to spend.

View attachment 368909


View attachment 368908

Having two people cooking can become quite an ordeal so it is best with one doing most of the work and then you have the stirrer lol. Nothing wrong with the size of that kitchen I would have loved that after my residency apartment but unfortunately for myself I stepped up to something a little bigger (island with enough space for three, range with 4 burners and a comal in the middle, an unnecessary built in wine fridge.) but it is very hard to go backwards in living style. Same thing with now having a garage spot (hadn't since I left for undergrad) now I cant go back to parking uncovered or worse street parking lol.

What kind of sick and twisted monster has kitchen counters with so little clutter on them?

That is an immaculate counter top. I love the look but never could do that I will always have a few appliances, utensils etc out. For those that like a really minimal kitchen look look into an appliance garage for their kitchen. Such a fun idea to keep the counter clean

 

[Stagg737]

Only my spouse does cooking. Lol... She does not feel it's a small kitchen

I guess that was what I could get for the $$$ I was willing to spend.

View attachment 368909


View attachment 368908

An island with an orchid and you call yourself a minimalist??? Pfffft. JK.

That is a nice sized kitchen for an average house. I prefer either a larger island or a little more counter space for cooking. This is about what our kitchen was in the house we previously rented.

 

[jbomba]

As someone with a guilty pleasure for interior design talk, the direction of this thread is pleasing me.

 

[Merovinge]

I can DM you if you want for the city I'm referring to. The same Zillow search where I'm talking about yields 5 options below $1 mil with 3 of them below $900k all with school ratings >7/10 within 30 minutes of downtown at the farthest. I will say that we looked at some new constructions through companies that built friend's homes if you call that "connections" in the industry, but pretty sure we weren't getting any discounts. Two of those companies also aren't advertising on Zillow, seems like they didn't need to, which is what I was referring to when I said "knowing the area".

I also question the legitimacy of Zillow's school ratings though, as it rates the HS my kid will attend as 6/10 which is quite a bit lower than it should be (per multiple other rating sites like US News) while his elementary school is rated as 10/10 and I find that to be a pretty generous rating.

Zillow is also not a great site to look at for new constructions. 2 of the neighborhoods we looked at don't even exist on Zillow yet and there have been houses there since at the latest 2020. Again, happy to DM you the city and specific neighborhoods/companies I'm talking about, but unless prices have gone up 20% in the past 6-8 months, I looked at 3-4 places that were around 4,000 sq ft with base prices around $700k.

I think maybe we are talking about different points. I by no means am trying to imply that your specific instance does not exist, I fully believe you that your location has these options.

I am stating this is not the typical experience for moderate to highly desired cities even those right around 1.0 COL index to have >4000 sq ft, <1million new construction and should not be the standard that anyone expects.

Zillow school ratings are definitely just a rough estimate, although I will say the all the schools local to me that are 9/10 or 10/10 do rank on the top 5% of schools on US news and other ranking methodologies. There's no one truth to these ratings but I do think they give a pretty rough estimate, they certainly scored my HS right around where I would rank it (solid 4/10 ).

 

[Stagg737]

I think maybe we are talking about different points. I by no means am trying to imply that your specific instance does not exist, I fully believe you that your location has these options.

I am stating this is not the typical experience for moderate to highly desired cities even those right around 1.0 COL index to have >4000 sq ft, <1million new construction and should not be the standard that anyone expects.

Zillow school ratings are definitely just a rough estimate, although I will say the all the schools local to me that are 9/10 or 10/10 do rank on the top 5% of schools on US news and other ranking methodologies. There's no one truth to these ratings but I do think they give a pretty rough estimate, they certainly scored my HS right around where I would rank it (solid 4/10 ).

Fair, my current state has a CoL index <0.9 and the city is just above 0.9, which I'm guessing is not the case for most cities that are even semi-desirable. While looking this up found a fun little tool that let's you compare the cost of living in different metropolitan areas and tells you how much you'd have to make in a different city to keep your current lifestyle. Entering $300k where I'm at now, I'd have to make $585k in San Fran to have the same lifestyle. Nerdwallet has a similar calculator and says I'd need $592.5k. In terms of house, median 3br/2ba is supposedly $400k where I'm at and $1.47mil in SF. Kind of neat to play around with.

Link to the tools:

U.S. Cost of Living Index by City: Downloadable Data | AdvisorSmith

The AdvisorSmith Cost of Living Index is modeled upon national average household budgets, with weights assigned to six major categories of household expenses. This index details the cost of living in different parts of the country and provides an easy way to compare cities against one another.

advisorsmith.com

Cost of Living Calculator | City and Salary Comparison Tool - NerdWallet

Moving to a new city? See how far your salary will go to maintain your standard of living using our Cost of Living Calculator. We offer you not only costs and income, but also information on schools, quality of life and demographics.

www.nerdwallet.com

 

[finalpsychyear]

Why would you have a 5-6k mortgage in the midwest? You are talking about a 800k home price.

I am going to say that again: Beyond 2500 sqft home for a family of 4 is overkill. I don't get why Americans are obsessed with big home.

Looks like I am close to making an offer on a 4k sq feet home not counting basement (unfin). i think 6 years old in a top 4 school for the area. Best part i got 50k off listing since guy needs to move asap for work promo also doing dual agency. I think another issue is if you can get to as close to a ratio of 1:1 of income to house most would agree it's reasonable. So if i made 400ish and get a 400 ish house it's a good measure that you are being financially responsible. Wife really like it. While i am not crazy about the house pretty sure it will appraise for 30-40k more than what i pay.
Probably in 2030 if i have reached some career milestones I might move. Is it weird i am already thinking about moving in 7 years lol.

 

[jbomba]

Looks like I am close to making an offer on a 4k sq feet home not counting basement (unfin). i think 6 years old in a top 4 school for the area. Best part i got 50k off listing since guy needs to move asap for work promo also doing dual agency. I think another issue is if you can get to as close to a ratio of 1:1 of income to house most would agree it's reasonable. So if i made 400ish and get a 400 ish house it's a good measure that you are being financially responsible. Wife really like it. While i am not crazy about the house pretty sure it will appraise for 30-40k more than what i pay.
Probably in 2030 if i have reached some career milestones I might move. Is it weird i am already thinking about moving in 7 years lol.

I'm looking at 2M homes in CA. These are ~2200 SQ feet, so definitely not mansions. Even with this mortgage, I'll meet my savings goals easily. If you are saving enough to keep yourself on track for retirement, home price is irrelevant. One could easily argue a home in a great neighborhood, in a highly desirable city, is going to appreciate better than the McMansion in a suburb outside some second tier city. So buying in a high cost of living city is going to allow you to leverage a higher value asset and may end up being the smarter decision in the long run too.

 

[finalpsychyear]

I'm looking at 2M homes in CA. These are ~2200 SQ feet, so definitely not mansions. Even with this mortgage, I'll meet my savings goals easily. If you are saving enough to keep yourself on track for retirement, home price is irrelevant. One could easily argue a home in a great neighborhood, in a highly desirable city, is going to appreciate better than the McMansion in a suburb outside some second tier city. So buying in a high cost of living city is going to allow you to leverage a higher value asset and may end up being the smarter decision in the long run too.

Its hard to break habits. my rent has ranged from 1300-2400 the last 7 years due to inflation and upgrades. Still feels like a lot when upper 6 fig houses with current rates are mortages in the 6000's. In some way it's easier to do what you are doing since it becomes normal in a way. Also, I didn't have my gigs ready to go like you did and took me almost a year out before i was full time so I was actually pretty poor and sadly lived with rents for 12 mo after boards and moving back from out of state. Having 500k+ from the start like i think you will would have maybe changed the way I spend money today to some degree I feel.

 

[Splenda88]

Looks like I am close to making an offer on a 4k sq feet home not counting basement (unfin). i think 6 years old in a top 4 school for the area. Best part i got 50k off listing since guy needs to move asap for work promo also doing dual agency. I think another issue is if you can get to as close to a ratio of 1:1 of income to house most would agree it's reasonable. So if i made 400ish and get a 400 ish house it's a good measure that you are being financially responsible. Wife really like it. While i am not crazy about the house pretty sure it will appraise for 30-40k more than what i pay.
Probably in 2030 if i have reached some career milestones I might move. Is it weird i am already thinking about moving in 7 years lol.

1:1 ratio is a dream. Anything <1.5 is good. ~2 is ok IMO,

 

[TexasPhysician]

1:1 ratio is a dream. Anything <1.5 is good. ~2 is ok IMO,

Caveat is that I bought a few years ago, but my 3500+ sq ft is 0.6

I’m also in a suburb, not near the city center. It isn’t considered a cool place to live. Schools are rated very highly though.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Caveat is that I bought a few years ago, but my 3500+ sq ft is 0.6

I’m also in a suburb, not near the city center. It isn’t considered a cool place to live. Schools are rated very highly though.

Nice. Current value or time at which you bought are you getting that ratio?

Around me all these 500k houses 3-4 years ago go for high 7 and 8s and they are made horribly.
Am i crazy to think this is like the stock market on a prolonged run for real estate meaning it has to correct drastically at some point and we are nearing the 18 yr cycle?

 

[Splenda88]

Caveat is that I bought a few years ago, but my 3500+ sq ft is 0.6

I’m also in a suburb, not near the city center. It isn’t considered a cool place to live. Schools are rated very highly though.

That is remarkable regardless when you bought it. Based on your screen name, I am assuming it's a suburb of Houston, Dallas, Austin or San Antonio.

 

[Splenda88]

Nice. Current value or time at which you bought are you getting that ratio?

Around me all these 500k houses 3-4 years ago go for high 7 and 8s and they are made horribly.
Am i crazy to think this is like the stock market on a prolonged run for real estate meaning it has to correct drastically at some point and we are nearing the 18 yr cycle?

I hope so. That will definitely accelerate my retirement if something like 2008-2012 happens again.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Nice. Current value or time at which you bought are you getting that ratio?

Around me all these 500k houses 3-4 years ago go for high 7 and 8s and they are made horribly.
Am i crazy to think this is like the stock market on a prolonged run for real estate meaning it has to correct drastically at some point and we are nearing the 18 yr cycle?

That is based on my purchase price. Value is probably up 50%. I certainly would have more equity if I bought in town, but my purchase price would also have been 2x for worse schools.

 

[RangerBob]

I'm looking at 2M homes in CA. These are ~2200 SQ feet, so definitely not mansions. Even with this mortgage, I'll meet my savings goals easily. If you are saving enough to keep yourself on track for retirement, home price is irrelevant. One could easily argue a home in a great neighborhood, in a highly desirable city, is going to appreciate better than the McMansion in a suburb outside some second tier city. So buying in a high cost of living city is going to allow you to leverage a higher value asset and may end up being the smarter decision in the long run too.

Ouch, 2m? You must be looking in the Bay Area. My childhood home there was around 2.2k sq feet. Very average ranch home, but we added on so it was 4bed/3bath with a large kitchen. My parents sold it for $1.3 million before the housing bubble, and thought they did great. Now it's worth $2.5 million (top school district in the East Bay adds about a $0.5-1m premium for that neighborhood, despite how old the homes are).

They paid somewhere around $150k for the home. Not a bad return!

We're all in the Central Coast now. Thankfully my wife and I found a home for under $700k. Worth quite a bit more now, but not appreciating to the same degree as Bay Area homes. Was still a tough pill to swallow as our home in residency in the Midwest cost $100,000. That was only 750sq ft, but it had another 750sq ft in the basement minus space for all the utilities, so it was only a little smaller than our current 1600sq ft home.

I am thankful to not have a McMansion. I'd rather have a walk-able neighborhood and be limited in how much stuff I can acquire.

It's surprising how strong the urge is to fill the space in your home (or yard) is. For a while I tried talking my wife into selling our home and buying a townhome or condo so we'd have less space/less maintenance needs.

 

[jbomba]

Ouch, 2m? You must be looking in the Bay Area. My childhood home there was around 2.2k sq feet. Very average ranch home, but we added on so it was 4bed/3bath with a large kitchen. My parents sold it for $1.3 million before the housing bubble, and thought they did great. Now it's worth $2.5 million (top school district in the East Bay adds about a $0.5-1m premium for that neighborhood, despite how old the homes are).

They paid somewhere around $150k for the home. Not a bad return!

We're all in the Central Coast now. Thankfully my wife and I found a home for under $700k. Worth quite a bit more now, but not appreciating to the same degree as Bay Area homes. Was still a tough pill to swallow as our home in residency in the Midwest cost $100,000. That was only 750sq ft, but it had another 750sq ft in the basement minus space for all the utilities, so it was only a little smaller than our current 1600sq ft home.

I am thankful to not have a McMansion. I'd rather have a walk-able neighborhood and be limited in how much stuff I can acquire.

It's surprising how strong the urge is to fill the space in your home (or yard) is. For a while I tried talking my wife into selling our home and buying a townhome or condo so we'd have less space/less maintenance needs.

I am guessing we are looking in your old east Bay neighborhood based on the description of the school system. Great area, beautiful community, and amazing schools. Prices have dropped a bit recently which is nice but it's only a matter of time before they start rising again. It'll be nice to be on the other side of that 2M home appreciating at 4-5% annually though.

I do love central coast though. Also a great place.

 

[erg923]

Looks like I am close to making an offer on a 4k sq feet home not counting basement (unfin). i think 6 years old in a top 4 school for the area. Best part i got 50k off listing since guy needs to move asap for work promo also doing dual agency. I think another issue is if you can get to as close to a ratio of 1:1 of income to house most would agree it's reasonable. So if i made 400ish and get a 400 ish house it's a good measure that you are being financially responsible. Wife really like it. While i am not crazy about the house pretty sure it will appraise for 30-40k more than what i pay.
Probably in 2030 if i have reached some career milestones I might move. Is it weird i am already thinking about moving in 7 years lol.

Good Lord, son. Live in the now.

 

[Merovinge]

Looks like I am close to making an offer on a 4k sq feet home not counting basement (unfin). i think 6 years old in a top 4 school for the area. Best part i got 50k off listing since guy needs to move asap for work promo also doing dual agency. I think another issue is if you can get to as close to a ratio of 1:1 of income to house most would agree it's reasonable. So if i made 400ish and get a 400 ish house it's a good measure that you are being financially responsible. Wife really like it. While i am not crazy about the house pretty sure it will appraise for 30-40k more than what i pay.
Probably in 2030 if i have reached some career milestones I might move. Is it weird i am already thinking about moving in 7 years lol.

1:1 income to house is absolutely on the most conservative side. Can you imagine if the average household bought their homes on a 1:1 basis? 2:1 is recommended by WCI, but certainly 3 or even 4:1 can be reasonable depending on the stability of the work and the cost of the area.

Nothing wrong with buying a house with a plan to move in around 7 years, might urk any kids if they need to change schools but it is entirely reasonable.

 

[clausewitz2]

Good Lord, son. Live in the now.

Our training forces us to assiduously avoid that for the better part of a decade, it's hard to shut it off.

 

[finalpsychyear]

1:1 income to house is absolutely on the most conservative side. Can you imagine if the average household bought their homes on a 1:1 basis? 2:1 is recommended by WCI, but certainly 3 or even 4:1 can be reasonable depending on the stability of the work and the cost of the area.

Nothing wrong with buying a house with a plan to move in around 7 years, might urk any kids if they need to change schools but it is entirely reasonable.

Hi, I was being absolutely too conservative. Decided against the 4k/mo house bc in reality we didn't love it. However, using the 2:1 ratio found a 2016 build with almost 5k sq feet not counting basement that is the first house I am like wow I could be there for good.

The bad news is with current rates my 30yr mortgage will be 6200/mo.... but for every 1% drop in rates it goes down 500 bucks lower.
Yearly spending will possibly go from 100k/year (2500 rent) to 150k (6200 mortage). Savings counting retirement will drop to 150/yr.
Will take some getting used to.

 

[Merovinge]

Hi, I was being absolutely too conservative. Decided against the 4k/mo house bc in reality we didn't love it. However, using the 2:1 ratio found a 2016 build with almost 5k sq feet not counting basement that is the first house I am like wow I could be there for good.

The bad news is with current rates my 30yr mortgage will be 6200/mo.... but for every 1% drop in rates it goes down 500 bucks lower.
Yearly spending will possibly go from 100k/year (2500 rent) to 150k (6200 mortage). Savings counting retirement will drop to 150/yr.
Will take some getting used to.

There is no way in which saving 150k a year for retirement is not going to meet your needs unless you want to stop working at a very young age. Enjoy the new house.

 

[forchinet121]

Hi, I was being absolutely too conservative. Decided against the 4k/mo house bc in reality we didn't love it. However, using the 2:1 ratio found a 2016 build with almost 5k sq feet not counting basement that is the first house I am like wow I could be there for good.

The bad news is with current rates my 30yr mortgage will be 6200/mo.... but for every 1% drop in rates it goes down 500 bucks lower.
Yearly spending will possibly go from 100k/year (2500 rent) to 150k (6200 mortage). Savings counting retirement will drop to 150/yr.
Will take some getting used to.

Enjoy the house..you never know when you will take your last breath

 

[finalpsychyear]

There is no way in which saving 150k a year for retirement is not going to meet your needs unless you want to stop working at a very young age. Enjoy the new house.

Mid 40's was always the goal to go PT which has me working till 2030 and would love to be in a position where even that is optional. What is very young age considered 40 or under?

 

[Merovinge]

Mid 40's was always the goal to go PT which has me working till 2030 and would love to be in a position where even that is optional. What is very young age considered 40 or under?

Yes 40 or under would absolutely be considered very young. Honestly under 50 I would say is quite young, 50-60 range seems to be a goal of lot of people these days based on the latest white coat investor survey. I'm shooting for FatFIRE around early to mid 50's personally, I would lose my identity/mind if I worked less years as an attending then I spent in school/training on a volitional basis (will probably work part-time far beyond that).

That said, I strongly believe people should only practice medicine if they want to. I think you can find a nice balance given how low the CoL is in your area where you still FIRE and spend 6 figures/year. We spend just over 6 figures a year with 1 kid and it feels very comfortable and I am certainly in a higher CoL area than you judging by home prices.

 

[erg923]

Our training forces us to assiduously avoid that for the better part of a decade, it's hard to shut it off.

Yea, ok, ok. No one is going to argue that the whole FIRE thing can't lead to one's Zen...or...whatever. Money obviously can indeed buy psychological security and physical health. I just can't imagine living my life so focused on more, more, next-step, next-step, etc. That seems exhausting, and oh, what are the seven sins again? I'm just not built like that. And that's not a mentality/value I instill in my children.

 

[G Sheb]

If you can find a formula that makes you happy NOW, not sure why you wouldn't continue with that later in your life. Why sacrifice a decade in your prime for 'later'?
It is also probably not great to sit around doing nothing in your mid 40s or even 50s. At some point, vacations and 'hobbies' get old.
Obviously to each their own and these things are entirely personal, but after more than a decade of delayed gratification in college, medical school and residency, it is very easy to get stuck in this loop and have a lot of blind spots for your health and well being.

 

[erg923]

If you can find a formula that makes you happy NOW, not sure why you wouldn't continue with that later in your life. Why sacrifice a decade in your prime for 'later'?
It is also probably not great to sit around doing nothing in your mid 40s or even 50s. At some point, vacations and 'hobbies' get old.
Obviously to each their own and these things are entirely personal, but after more than a decade of delayed gratification in college, medical school and residency, it is very easy to get stuck in this loop and have a lot of blind spots for your health and well being.

"Front loading" your life has been a thing since the early 80s if not before. Personally, I think it's a bunch of ****.

Obviously, buying a home under your means and living under your means will never go out of style. However, extreme frugality (with a languishing financial goal) can become cultish and markedly removed from normal family life, priorities, and development.

I would prefer to actually NOT front load my life at all. Boomer stuff/thinking to me.

 

[jbomba]

For those in a high col locale, what are you planning on needing to have saved in order to retire?

 

[finalpsychyear]

There is no way in which saving 150k a year for retirement is not going to meet your needs unless you want to stop working at a very young age. Enjoy the new house.

Enjoy the house..you never know when you will take your last breath

Thanks guys. Maybe what i needed to hear. Will let you know what happens but I've thought about it some more. Just going to go ahead and get the house I truly want even if it's more than i need. Sort of lucky I can do that where I am for little under 1m. I've worked insanely hard for 7 years I'm just programmed to save but my wife's been breaking that mold so time to see what i can pull off.

 

[untapped]

In today's dollars, around 3m to go part time, maybe 5m to fully retire, assuming paid off home. I'm not a FIRE person though having seen too many people die young and I doubt a 65 year old's quality of life has much to do with whether they have 3m or 6m in assets.

 

[yanks26dmb]

In today's dollars, around 3m to go part time, maybe 5m to fully retire, assuming paid off home. I'm not a FIRE person though having seen too many people die young and I doubt a 65 year old's quality of life has much to do with whether they have 3m or 6m in assets.

Yeah that seems decent. Do you calculate your home equity into the equation? I would imagine once my kid is out of college, my spouse and I really don't need a larger house for just the two of us. Seems like it would make sense to downgrade to something less expensive. A 2M house in a great neighborhood in a first tier city is highly unlikely to go down over a period of 15-20 years - on the contrary its probably going to keep going up in value, further increasing your equity. For me it seems like it would make sense to include this in your savings - with the understanding part of that would be going to your next home.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Yeah that seems decent. Do you calculate your home equity into the equation? I would imagine once my kid is out of college, my spouse and I really don't need a larger house for just the two of us. Seems like it would make sense to downgrade to something less expensive. A 2M house in a great neighborhood in a first tier city is highly unlikely to go down over a period of 15-20 years - on the contrary its probably going to keep going up in value, further increasing your equity. For me it seems like it would make sense to include this in your savings - with the understanding part of that would be going to your next home.

I wouldnt include that. Most that retire early don’t want to sell their nice home in the city and move to rural America to pick up on that appreciation.

More common is trading in the $2 million 2-3 story home for a condo with an elevator that has high monthly fees for the amenities. The fees catch up on you. Once you live at the city center for 20 years, moving to an unknown area with more travel isn’t enticing to most.