Degree Change: Interesting post on AOA president's blog

[bth7]

Nope. When I decided to attend a DO school, I was excited about the prospect of "treating the whole patient rather than symptoms", being able to diagnose and treat with my hands rather than relying on medications, and learning medicine from a whole different perspective than that of the common MD.

Well, I got scammed. I obtained an MD curriculum with the addition of 3 hours of OPP per week. I did rotations with MD students where nothing we learned in DO school put us above them, except for the fact that we could crack each other's backs now and then. I learned nothing in DO school stating that "this is the MD method of treatment, but this is the DO treatment which is far superior". Our school gave us a discount for board prep, but what were the books we received? 8 Kaplan USMLE books, with one packet of COMLEX questions. Basically I am passionate for a change because of this: I received an MD education with a little bit more, hence my designation should represent that.

Agree with every word. 100%

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[J1515]

Seems like a great time to become a DO to me. I just find it odd for us to apply, get into a school, and immediately want to change the degree designation. If there are so many problems and you hate the title DO so much why did you apply and accept to begin with?

Because it was their only choice. If they put half as much thought and dedication into studying in undergrad as they are trying to change the initials, they would've gotten into an MD school.

The hilarious thing is they think there's even a remote possibility this will pass... making websites, petitions . 99% of practicing DOs are too busy practicing medicine to be concerned with this nonsense. And if they think the AOA is going to change the initials because 400 DO students who couldn't get into an MD school want an M in their title, well...I'm just going to sit back and watch in amusement.

 

[metalmd06]

Because it was their only choice. If they put half as much thought and dedication into studying in undergrad as they are trying to change the initials, they would've gotten into an MD school.

The hilarious thing is they think there's even a remote possibility this will pass... making websites, petitions . 99% of practicing DOs are too busy practicing medicine to be concerned with this nonsense. And if they think the AOA is going to change the initials because 400 DO students who couldn't get into an MD school want an M in their title, well...I'm just going to sit back and watch in amusement.

I kind of agree with you in a way. SDN is great, however it is just opinions in a vaccuum. It seems like the majority of students and osteopathic physicians on this forum agree that some sort of change is necessary, but how can we be sure that the majority of those in osteopathic medicine outside of SDN want this kind of change? The answer is to take action and to find out firsthand.

The fact is that everytime this issue pops up it recieves great attention. The only way that we will know if the capacity for change is out there is to test the waters. I applaud those ambitious students and physicians on this forum that are moving in that direction. However, I propose a challenge. To me, this has to be addressed aggressively. Let's not half-ass it and then have it fizzle out. Hit this issue full-steam and see what comes of it. If it doesn't work, I think then its time to lay this thing to rest and focus on other issues that are, as some have pointed out, arguably more pressing (residencies, AOA representation, etc.). If we are going to put energy into a degree designation change then we owe it to ourselves, and the profession, to put as much or even more energy into improving training and practice.

 

[Concubine]

No amount of griping, petitioning, or anonymous posting is going to change anything. You guys need lawyers, lots of money, and the backing of a significant amount of osteopathic (and I would bet allopathic) physicians. Until then, all you can hope to do is fan the flame. Good luck!

By the way, I'm all for merging the two, but before that can happen, some of the osteopathic schools are going to have reform.

 

[DannMann99]

Exactly why i wish there was that 1 DO 1 Vote thing. It would put the issue to rest and allow everyone to move forward.

 

[J1515]

Exactly why i wish there was that 1 DO 1 Vote thing. It would put the issue to rest and allow everyone to move forward.

The issue was already put to rest. The AOA president said there will be no change, and if you wanted an M in your title you should've gone to an allopathic school. Most practicing DOs realize this isn't worth the effort. They are too busy being doctors.

 

[slick27]

I think we all should be awarded the MD degree because that is the job we are fulfilling. In the end, I have seen MD that practice more like DO's and DO's that practice more like MD's. What the AOA doesn't understand is that simply because you have DO after you name doesn't guarantee that they will practice holistically.

 

[spicedmanna]

What the AOA doesn't understand is that simply because you have DO after you name doesn't guarantee that they will practice holistically.

I don't think that's the problem. I think the AOA is trying to accentuate the differences, cling onto the past, and use propaganda, in order to ensure that DO's are seen as separate entities so that they can maintain their base of power. The alternative would be to face reality and recognize that there isn't any significant difference between DO's and MD's, which would mean the end of osteopathic medicine and their organization.

 

[spicedmanna]

The issue was already put to rest. The AOA president said there will be no change, and if you wanted an M in your title you should've gone to an allopathic school. Most practicing DOs realize this isn't worth the effort. They are too busy being doctors.

I have to agree here. The AOA has already made their stance clear on the issue. Fight another battle.

 

[bth7]

I don't think that's the problem. I think the AOA is trying to accentuate the differences, cling onto the past, and use propaganda, in order to ensure that DO's are seen as separate entities so that they can maintain their base of power. The alternative would be to face reality and recognize that there isn't any significant difference between DO's and MD's, which would mean the end of osteopathic medicine and their organization.

Bear in mind, they won't give up easily. People have built their lives, their careers around this issue. Don't expect them to just roll over.

We can fight all we want. But honestly, I think the event that will bring about change will be the retirement of the current generation and the transfer of power to the next generation. The AOA let so many new schools open in the past 10 years, so many that the AOA has lost control over a cohesive DO identity. When this new batch of physicians comes of age, they will not be interested in maintaining this (now) meaningless distinction.

I know its a long time to wait, but give it 10 years. This ship on its final journey and the next time it pulls into port will be its last. The AOA will try to keep it afloat as long as it can . . . but they know their days are numbered.

Bryan

 

[spicedmanna]

Degree change will be the first step in forming a new identity for us and bridging the gap with fellow allopaths. MD,DO will allow a 3 tier medical school to be formed: MD only; MD,DO; and DO only.
Good established osteopathic schools can attain a dual status while troubled, for-profit and weak osteopathic schools will only receive a DO status if LCME gets involved.

I appreciate your idea, but I think it's far too complex. People and organizations alike appreciate simplicity and ease of administration. If you are going to go that route and make it plausible, you need to simplify. I get a headache myself thinking about a 3-tiered system and the red tape needed to maintain such a structure.

 

[DannMann99]

The issue was already put to rest. The AOA president said there will be no change, and if you wanted an M in your title you should've gone to an allopathic school. Most practicing DOs realize this isn't worth the effort. They are too busy being doctors.

You amaze me J1515.

You keep spouting about how its not worth the effort, no one should fight for this, there are bigger and better things to work towards yet with all of that there are still people who are interested to see a change here; and though you acknowledge that there are more pressing issues, you certainly devote none of your time to them and instead argue against the people who are atleast doing something!

While it may be impractical and ultimately go no where. Atleast people are trying to do something. Whereas you are simply arguing against impracticality... now how absurd is that?

These people will spend their time trying to take the profession in the direction they want, and thats commendable. You waste your time shooting down ideas on an internet forum...

and I have to say its blind opposition to things like this that make me favor the idea of a degree change. Something I might add I haven't been a huge proponent of in the past.

 

[spicedmanna]

We can fight all we want. But honestly, I think the event that will bring about change will be the retirement of the current generation and the transfer of power to the next generation. The AOA let so many new schools open in the past 10 years, so many that the AOA has lost control over a cohesive DO identity. When this new batch of physicians comes of age, they will not be interested in maintaining this (now) meaningless distinction.

I know its a long time to wait, but give it 10 years. This ship on its final journey and the next time it pulls into port will be its last. The AOA will try to keep it afloat as long as it can . . . but they know their days are numbered.

Bryan

I didn't always see it this way, especially at the onset of medical school, but now I agree with you. I think patience is the key. I think the illusion of distinctiveness is crumbling and it's just a matter of time before reality must be faced by the organization. It's just a matter of time. Currently, I think we are just "moving deck chairs around on the Titanic."

 

[scpod]

The reason why this is such a waste of time is you are doing it all wrong. If you want to really makes changes you have to:

1) Wait until you actually are a DO because then you will have some say in the matter
2) Get your buddies who are like-minded elected into the offices where they can do something about it.

To make it work you have to invade the AOA like a virus does, slowly taking over the body until you have control of it.

Instead, you have all these silly ideas about lawsuits and trying to force your way in, and you don't realize how ridiculous it all looks.

Your fight is a lot like saying I want to join the Airforce, but I want you to change the name to the Army first. Most people in the Airforce don't even fly planes anyway... they have other jobs, so it isn't really representative of what you do. Besides, the Army already has people flying planes. Imagine how well that would go over with all the old guys in the Airforce if somebody decided to do that. they's fight tooth and nail, using all their resources to prevent it. But if you did the job covertly, slowly placing like-minded individuals in positions of power... they wouldn't even know what had hit them when the change took place.

What would really happen if you tried to sue the AOA? They would end up using all the money and resources they have to combat it until the death-- things that could be better spent improving GME programs and medical schools. In effect, you'll be hurting yourself more than helping yourself.

 

[bth7]

Your fight is a lot like saying I want to join the Airforce, but I want you to change the name to the Army first. Most people in the Airforce don't even fly planes anyway... they have other jobs, so it isn't really representative of what you do. Besides, the Army already has people flying planes. Imagine how well that would go over with all the old guys in the Airforce if somebody decided to do that. they's fight tooth and nail, using all their resources to prevent it. But if you did the job covertly, slowly placing like-minded individuals in positions of power... they wouldn't even know what had hit them when the change took place.

These metaphors are such a straw-man argument. "Most people in the airforce don't fly planes"? "Change the name of the airforce to the army"? There's no connection.

These types of comparisons have nothing to do with what we are talking about here. The two situations are completely completely dissimilar.

bth

 

[bth7]

These people will spend their time trying to take the profession in the direction they want, and thats commendable. You waste your time shooting down ideas on an internet forum...

Agree 100%

 

[bth7]

I didn't always see it this way, especially at the onset of medical school, but now I agree with you. I think patience is the key. I think the illusion of distinctiveness is crumbling and it's just a matter of time before reality must be faced by the organization. It's just a matter of time. Currently, I think we are just "moving deck chairs around on the Titanic."

So many people have this experience. A major disillusionment with the propaganda of the osteopathic establishment. It usually comes late 3rd year to mid 4th year. Especially if people do a few elective rotations at a teaching hospital of an MD-schools that has ACGME-residency programs. They see how much more attention MD-students get from the attendings. They see how much more patient-centered the care is as a well-funded MD-teaching hospital. They see how much more integrated the education of an MD-student is compared to the piecemeal, disorganized system DO-schools use.

It has been a really sad and disappointing. I really did believe in the ideals and principles of the Osteopathic community. And then I came to understand the AOA sold its soul to profit & $$ years ago. They don't care about you, or OMM, or "Osteopathic medicine". They care about $$.

bth

 

[Old_Mil]

Because it was their only choice. If they put half as much thought and dedication into studying in undergrad as they are trying to change the initials, they would've gotten into an MD school.

The hilarious thing is they think there's even a remote possibility this will pass... making websites, petitions . 99% of practicing DOs are too busy practicing medicine to be concerned with this nonsense. And if they think the AOA is going to change the initials because 400 DO students who couldn't get into an MD school want an M in their title, well...I'm just going to sit back and watch in amusement.

What a curious post. It (1) furthers the idea that people go to DO school because they can't get into MD school and (2) presumes that it's a minority of DO applicants that would be interest. Given that 66% of DO applicants have also applied to MD schools - and would based on the fact of that applicantion be perfectly happy if not prefer an MD admission - that's a wrong assumption as well.

 

[bth7]

If they put half as much thought and dedication into studying in undergrad as they are trying to change the initials, they would've gotten into an MD school.

J1515 has one response to any discussion. "I don't agree with you therefore having this discussion is wasting your time." He then laughs at you for even suggesting change is possible if we work for it. He posts this cynical, arrogant & dismissive attitude all over SDN on any number of issues.

bth

 

[niranjan162]

If they put half as much thought and dedication into studying in undergrad as they are trying to change the initials, they would've gotten into an MD school.

I think its funny how you think you are the only one who can manage to study hard enough to become a good dr and still post here.

 

[DOinMS]

Yes, a "cynical, arrogant & dismissive attitude," and an identity crisis to top it off.

I did and I have the same degree as an MD. I don't care if you see it, I don't care if a bunch of pre-meds see it, I don't even care if my patients see it.

Congrats. I'm a 4th year too.

If one thing has become apparent to me through the discussions here, on the AOA president's blog, and other forums it's that those who oppose the idea spend all of their time simply telling you how stupid the whole idea is while those who support the degree change provide logical reasons.

I was once impartial, but my vote eventually went to the logical/rational side. Doing nothing has never been a solution to any problem.

 

[Flushot]

The reason why this is such a waste of time is you are doing it all wrong. If you want to really makes changes you have to:

1) Wait until you actually are a DO because then you will have some say in the matter
2) Get your buddies who are like-minded elected into the offices where they can do something about it.

To make it work you have to invade the AOA like a virus does, slowly taking over the body until you have control of it.

Instead, you have all these silly ideas about lawsuits and trying to force your way in, and you don't realize how ridiculous it all looks.

Do you have to 'invade' the AOA or whatever to change things? What about what andextrouss was saying about TCOM?

I hate to bring it back them but TCOM is an interesting case because they have huge opposition from all sides, except what might be actually good for the school itself. Granted, whether or not it helps the current DO students is another matter, but it seems that if TCOM succeeds with their plan to implement the MD degree, then they just ignored the condemnation of three organizations or bypassed them.

 

[cliquesh]

LOL. You haven't even started school and you are complaining about your future degree. You obviously do not want to be a DO, you want to be a MD. So do everyone a favor, decline any acceptances you have, and go to the Caribbean.

 

[DannMann99]

Well I have to say I agree with Cliquesh. Here i figured you were a M2 or M3... and sadly I atleast kind of agree with him.

If you plan to fully support this initiative I probably wouldn't let people know you aren't even enrolled yet...

 

[ceftazidime]

LOL. You haven't even started school and you are complaining about your future degree. You obviously do not want to be a DO, you want to be a MD. So do everyone a favor, decline any acceptances you have, and go to the Caribbean.

Why does one have to already be a medical student to be passionate about their future career? I wish more pre-DO students had the foresight and determination that andexterouss has to do something about their own future. Like most people who have posted on this thread, I don't want to be a DO either. I want to be an osteopathic physician which the letters "DO" do not represent. An MD or Caribbean school does not teach OMT, therefore I never would have went to one because I actually wanted to learn this. Your last sentence is oddly similar to the dismissive sentiment of Dr. DiMarco... you clearly have what it takes to be AOA president.

 

[cliquesh]

Why does everyone 'dis' on DiMarco? You know he is powerless to change the degree, right?. And have you read his mission statement? Essential his goal as president is to improve OGME, which I think is the biggest concern for future DO students. You might not give a crap as a 4th year, but as someone starting school next year, that's all I care about-more residency options.

 

[PICUfellow]

If you say that DO education equals MD education plus more, why are you so desperate to change the name of the degree? Being a DO should be a source of PRIDE because you have gotten an MD education plus more stuff.

Whats in a name?

 

[IDBasco]

I can't believe what I'm reading.

 

[cliquesh]

When I read his post, I don't think it is dismissive. He basically told you want you need to do:

"you need to work with your osteopathic state/specialty or student organization to bring another resolution back to the House this year."


I guess he does snap a little at the end, but his argument makes sense, at least to me.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Why does everyone 'dis' on DiMarco? You know he is powerless to change the degree, right?. And have you read his mission statement? Essential his goal as president is to improve OGME, which I think is the biggest concern for future DO students. You might not give a crap as a 4th year, but as someone starting school next year, that's all I care about-more residency options.

I think everyone is definitely FOR that. If he could clean up OGME, and not ever touch the degree change ... I'd personally be happy. I'm all for a degree that represents what we do in a confusing time of mid-levels walking around hospitals in lab coats and introducing themselves as doctors or physicians of something, but improving OGME would be wonderful. Let's hope he can do that.

 

[cliquesh]

Yea, how do people get elected? Anyone know?

Like others have said, I think once our generation gets into the AOA things will be different, and that's why I'm not too concerned for a degree change now. But our future residency outlook scares me and needs to be addressed immediately, and I hope other students and DOs take notice.

 

[nilknarf]

"Another option to consider for those of you who are really fed up with your degree designation, is to switch schools or return to school for an MD degree. No one forced the DO degree upon you. You chose to attend an osteopathic medical school and you knew going in the degree was DO."

I knew I would get a DO, but at the time I did not know all the intricacies of getting a residency. I did not know that going to a DO school would make my life hell. Most of the sites I want to do residencies at I can't even do an audition rotation at because I am at a DO school. I have a very high USMLE and am near the top of my class, but still as a DO I am at a disadvantage when it comes to applying to residencies. Also, the VSAS system for arranging rotations is only open to LCME schools. On top of all this, most of our own hospitals are terrible sites for rotations and residencies. Also, AOA residencies pay less than ACGME residencies. Why, I am not sure.

To top of all the extra work we have to put in just to peice our educations together, out in the world you often get a friendly ribbing from the MDs about having a DO after your name (as I have witnessed), and a friend was told that the anesthesiologist she was following who was a DO was good only because he was overcompensating for being a DO.

The list goes on and on. Personally I would be happy if our schools would for one, open or take over and run major hospitals with their faculty and show by results that they are great physicians, and two get accredited by COCA and LCME so as to show that their standards are at least equivalent, and this would give us access to those rotatitons we have been cravings.

In summary, the DO after my name is one thing, the rest of this crap is not what I signed up for.

Third year DO

 

[ceftazidime]

If you say that DO education equals MD education plus more, why are you so desperate to change the name of the degree? Being a DO should be a source of PRIDE because you have gotten an MD education plus more stuff.

Whats in a name?

So if I walked around in a white coat with "John Doe, XYZFIOP" embroidered on it, and told you that "I went through 4 years of medical school and x years of residency and have an equal scope of practice to that of an MD in addition to training in osteopathic manipulative treatment", would you believe me? No, you would be suspicious and wonder why I don't have a title similar that of MD.

I'm not saying that the above situation actually happens on a daily basis, but the point is it should never happen. The name is important, because it should accurately represent what one does.

 

[bth7]

I knew I would get a DO, but at the time I did not know all the intricacies of getting a residency. I did not know that going to a DO school would make my life hell. Most of the sites I want to do residencies at I can't even do an audition rotation at because I am at a DO school. I have a very high USMLE and am near the top of my class, but still as a DO I am at a disadvantage when it comes to applying to residencies. Also, the VSAS system for arranging rotations is only open to LCME schools. On top of all this, most of our own hospitals are terrible sites for rotations and residencies. Also, AOA residencies pay less than ACGME residencies. Why, I am not sure.

To top of all the extra work we have to put in just to peice our educations together, out in the world you often get a friendly ribbing from the MDs about having a DO after your name (as I have witnessed), and a friend was told that the anesthesiologist she was following who was a DO was good only because he was overcompensating for being a DO.

The list goes on and on. Personally I would be happy if our schools would for one, open or take over and run major hospitals with their faculty and show by results that they are great physicians, and two get accredited by COCA and LCME so as to show that their standards are at least equivalent, and this would give us access to those rotatitons we have been cravings.

In summary, the DO after my name is one thing, the rest of this crap is not what I signed up for.

Third year DO

Reflects my personal experience exactly.

 

[DOinMS]

the DO after my name is one thing, the rest of this crap is not what I signed up for.

Absolutely. The way the schools and the AOA sell the product borders on false advertisement.

As for GME, the solution is to address the 959 funded residency spots that went unfilled after the match (not sure what the final number was after the scrammble). How will the AOA continue to justify funding for such a large number of unfilled spots? Answer: IT CAN'T!!! So instead it will embrace the concept of adding seats and opening more schools.

I will go a little further (call me a conspiracy theorist if you want), but I wouldn't be surprised at all if the AOA wants ACGME to deny DOs access to residencies. I can't prove that, but it would almost be par for the course.

What does all of this have to do with changing the degree? It's how the AOA is handling the issue. If you are okay with them telling you to be silent or get out in regards to the degree change, then when certain measures are enacted to ensure the DO residency spots are filled you had better be willing to be silent and take that as well.

 

[Old_Mil]

I knew I would get a DO, but at the time I did not know all the intricacies of getting a residency. I did not know that going to a DO school would make my life hell. Most of the sites I want to do residencies at I can't even do an audition rotation at because I am at a DO school. I have a very high USMLE and am near the top of my class, but still as a DO I am at a disadvantage when it comes to applying to residencies. Also, the VSAS system for arranging rotations is only open to LCME schools. On top of all this, most of our own hospitals are terrible sites for rotations and residencies. Also, AOA residencies pay less than ACGME residencies. Why, I am not sure.

To top of all the extra work we have to put in just to peice our educations together, out in the world you often get a friendly ribbing from the MDs about having a DO after your name (as I have witnessed), and a friend was told that the anesthesiologist she was following who was a DO was good only because he was overcompensating for being a DO.

The list goes on and on. Personally I would be happy if our schools would for one, open or take over and run major hospitals with their faculty and show by results that they are great physicians, and two get accredited by COCA and LCME so as to show that their standards are at least equivalent, and this would give us access to those rotatitons we have been cravings.

In summary, the DO after my name is one thing, the rest of this crap is not what I signed up for.

Third year DO

+1. Great post. There's a lot of misrepresentation in the recruitment of premeds by the Osteopathic powers that be.

Had I know how much time and brainspace I would have to waste on OMT, had I known how crappy preceptor based job shadowing clinical rotations were, had I know just how foolish the AOA was in permitting for profit medical schools and their ilk, had I known how much of a disadvantage the degree would be in applying to real residencies (sorry kids, OGME stinks)...I would have absolutely gone to the Caribbean.

But losing 66% of their applicant pool to the Caribbean makes the Osteopathic power structure wet its pants.

So the deception continues. They want to train outpatient chiropractors with prescribing rights. We want to be Physicians.

 

[cliquesh]

What school do you go to old mill?

 

[jp104]

Yea, how do people get elected? Anyone know?

Like others have said, I think once our generation gets into the AOA things will be different, and that's why I'm not too concerned for a degree change now. But our future residency outlook scares me and needs to be addressed immediately, and I hope other students and DOs take notice.

Here's a small bit of info regarding how AOA electoral procedures go. As you'll see in the article, certain regions have a larger amount of influence than others.

https://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do1008elections.pdf

 

[DannMann99]

+1. Great post. There's a lot of misrepresentation in the recruitment of premeds by the Osteopathic powers that be.

Had I know how much time and brainspace I would have to waste on OMT, had I known how crappy preceptor based job shadowing clinical rotations were, had I know just how foolish the AOA was in permitting for profit medical schools and their ilk, had I known how much of a disadvantage the degree would be in applying to real residencies (sorry kids, OGME stinks)...I would have absolutely gone to the Caribbean.

But losing 66% of their applicant pool to the Caribbean makes the Osteopathic power structure wet its pants.

So the deception continues. They want to train outpatient chiropractors with prescribing rights. We want to be Physicians.

I thought omt would be clinically useful. When I sit through my basic sciences I can pick out things that I know i'll be doing/see/using again once im out there practicing. When I sit through OMM I've yet to leave the lab saying 'wow, now THAT im going to use' most of the time I leave thinking that was kind of interesting... and of course sometimes I leave saying wtf really?...
I went into it thinking only the highest of omm, now that im actually doing it i've been a little let down.

 

[DOinMS]

Here's a small bit of info regarding how AOA electoral procedures go. As you'll see in the article, certain regions have a larger amount of influence than others.

https://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do1008elections.pdf

Wow. If this article doesn't want to make you want to withdraw your membership from the AOA, I don't know what would. The AOA makes no bones about the fact that the electoral process is slanted and serves to benefit a small group. All AOA policies can be driven by seven states (if they vote together). The fact that the House of Delegates and the president at the time rejected a more democratic process is telling of the times. I wonder how this process compares to the AMA?

 

[bth7]

+1. Great post. There's a lot of misrepresentation in the recruitment of premeds by the Osteopathic powers that be.

Had I know how much time and brainspace I would have to waste on OMT, had I known how crappy preceptor based job shadowing clinical rotations were, had I know just how foolish the AOA was in permitting for profit medical schools and their ilk, had I known how much of a disadvantage the degree would be in applying to real residencies (sorry kids, OGME stinks)...I would have absolutely gone to the Caribbean.

But losing 66% of their applicant pool to the Caribbean makes the Osteopathic power structure wet its pants.

So the deception continues. They want to train outpatient chiropractors with prescribing rights. We want to be Physicians.

This is a spot-on analysis.

If more pre-meds would get this side of the story, the situation would be different.

Thanks for sharing. This reflects my experience 100%. Sadly, I didn't put all the pieces of this story together until now, 4th year.

bth

 

[bth7]

I thought omt would be clinically useful. When I sit through my basic sciences I can pick out things that I know i'll be doing/see/using again once im out there practicing. When I sit through OMM I've yet to leave the lab saying 'wow, now THAT im going to use' most of the time I leave thinking that was kind of interesting... and of course sometimes I leave saying wtf really?...
I went into it thinking only the highest of omm, now that im actually doing it i've been a little let down.

Here's what Gevitz has to say on the topic:

In their assigned readings, students learn what certain prominent DOs have to say about various somatic dysfunctions. There is often a theory or model presented that provides conjectures and putative explanations about why somatic dysfunction exists and what its significance is. Instructors spend the bulk of their time demonstrating osteopathic manipulative (OM) techniques without providing evidence that the techniques are significant and efficacious. Even worse, faculty members rarely provide instrument-based objective evidence that somatic dysfunction is present in the first place.

From "Osteopathic medicine in the United States."

bth

 

[Concubine]

If you say that DO education equals MD education plus more, why are you so desperate to change the name of the degree? Being a DO should be a source of PRIDE because you have gotten an MD education plus more stuff.

Whats in a name?

The statement that "osteopathic medicine is everything the MD learns + OMM" is false. Your schedule is full both ways. Remember that by learning OMM, you are leaving less time for other things.

 

[metalmd06]

The statement that "osteopathic medicine is everything the MD learns + OMM" is false. Your schedule is full both ways. Remember that by learning OMM, you are leaving less time for other things.

Do you really think 3 hours of OMM per week is taking that much away from learning medicine? No, I think your statement is false. Otherwise DO's wouldn't be fit to practice medicine and we know that's not the case. Do MD students learn more medicine than DO students in those three hours? Just ridiculous.

 

[spicedmanna]

Do you really think 3 hours of OMM per week is taking that much away from learning medicine? No, I think your statement is false. Otherwise DO's wouldn't be fit to practice medicine and we know that's not the case. Do MD students learn more medicine than DO students in those three hours? Just ridiculous.

Actually, I'd say that there is some truth to what he is saying. This is not to say that it has any significant impact on clinical skills/ability (it doesn't, since we all know that the first two years don't matter that much), but spending 2-3 hrs a week on OMT does cut down on time for other basic sciences; it does add up at the end. I feel that I get less time for subjects like pathology, biochemistry, and genetics. Consequently, I feel less ready for the USMLE with respect to these subjects. Given that, though, I am spending extra time learning these subjects on my own, so it balances out at the end.

 

[J1515]

You amaze me J1515.

You keep spouting about how its not worth the effort, no one should fight for this, there are bigger and better things to work towards yet with all of that there are still people who are interested to see a change here;

The majority of these people are DO students who couldn't get into an MD school and haven't practiced medicine yet. Therefore what they 'want' is not for the better of the profession but for their own ego. Their opinion is worthless and this whole "fight" is not only pointless but will accomplish nothing. Show me 5000 practicing DOs who are fighting for this change and I will listen. It's not a coincidence that's it's mainly students that are obsessed with the initials (and the dean of one school).

and though you acknowledge that there are more pressing issues, you certainly devote none of your time to them and instead argue against the people who are atleast doing something!

Trust me. I devote a huge portion of my time to trying to improve Osteopathic residencies and improve our education. I just don't whine about it on a forum. I'm also busy trying to learn medicine right now so I don't kill someone next year in residency.

 

[J1515]

Instead, you have all these silly ideas about lawsuits and trying to force your way in, and you don't realize how ridiculous it all looks.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw the humor in all this.

 

[J1515]

So many people have this experience. A major disillusionment with the propaganda of the osteopathic establishment. It usually comes late 3rd year to mid 4th year. Especially if people do a few elective rotations at a teaching hospital of an MD-schools that has ACGME-residency programs. They see how much more attention MD-students get from the attendings.

I got exactly the same attention from the attendings as the MD students did and I did a bunch of 3rd and 4th year rotations at large allopathic hospitals. Perhaps if you showed the attendings you were in this to learn medicine and become a great doctor rather then spending all your time and effort on political issues and initials and other nonsense, those attendings would have taken you more seriously?

The majority of students who talk about this huge difference in the treatment of DO students vs. MD students really need to take a look in the mirror instead of trying to blame the difference in initials.

 

[DannMann99]

The majority of these people are DO students who couldn't get into an MD school and haven't practiced medicine yet. Therefore what they 'want' is not for the better of the profession but for their own ego. Their opinion is worthless and this whole "fight" is not only pointless but will accomplish nothing. Show me 5000 practicing DOs who are fighting for this change and I will listen. It's not a coincidence that's it's mainly students that are obsessed with the initials (and the dean of one school).

Trust me. I devote a huge portion of my time to trying to improve Osteopathic residencies and improve our education. I just don't whine about it on a forum. I'm also busy trying to learn medicine right now so I don't kill someone next year in residency.

Well in the 60's about 80% of practicing DOs in california chose to change, and I would imagine that that number is very similar to the sentiment across the country.

Maybe it's just students because they are willing to fight for it, they don't have to uphold a practice or work 80hr weeks as a resident...

I'm SURE you do devote a 'huge portion of your time'. You've found stuff you want to fight for, so have these people.

Time and again you have posted your opinion on this thread. We all know how you stand on the issue and would appreciate you take your negative and contradictory attitude elsewhere.

If they need your important opinion on something I am more then sure that they will PM you.

Thanks in advance,

-Everyone at SDN


pwnt.

 

[J1515]

Well in the 60's about 80% of practicing DOs in california chose to change, and I would imagine that that number is very similar to the sentiment across the country.

You honestly think the practicing rights of DOs in the 1960s is comparable to what they have in today in 2009? Are you for real? Of course they chose to become a physician that is recognized in all 50 states at that time. That's the equivalent of telling chiropractors today that they can become a DO or MD for a nominal fee.

Some of you people really aren't thinking rationally.

Maybe it's just students because they are willing to fight for it, they don't have to uphold a practice or work 80hr weeks as a resident...

Exactly. Residents and physicians are busy doing what they went to medical school for - practicing medicine. How about all those DO FP physicians working 4-5 days a week with 9-5 jobs. I don't see them crying about their initials and it's not due to a lack of time.

-pwnt