Degree Change: Interesting post on AOA president's blog

[JaggerPlate]

i think it should be MDO, MD/DO as a degree is just not as marketable; as medicine becomes more and more of a business, we have to consider these things. You can be a great dr but it wont matter if u dont have patients, cuz they dont know what a D.O. is. Like the above posters said Osteopathic medicine has evolved into an evidence based form. We can't just stop the evolution of our profession.

So people will know what an MDO is?? I can barely tell what that is. Having the MD in the title makes it = doctor, the DO can easily be explained after the 'physician' part is verified. Either work though, I just think the MD,DO makes more sense.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[ChiDO]

MD, DO should be the designation as we are first and foremost physicians (MDs) and also have had additional training in OMM (DO). Therefore, an MD, DO seems to be the most logical choice.

If we went to MDO or any other sort of combination, we'd end up in the same dilemma we are in now again.

 

[ceftazidime]

Make it 4 for MD,DO (which would stand for "Doctor of Medicine, Diplomate of Osteopathy" as we did not earn 2 doctorates).

 

[Brodiewankenobi]

Make it 4 for MD,DO (which would stand for "Doctor of Medicine, Diplomate of Osteopathy" as we did not earn 2 doctorates).

Problem with this. What if you were a graduate of an osteopathic school that did not practice (or in some cases believe in) OMM. It'd be real tempting for these people just drop the DO and present themselves as just MD.

 

[Old_Mil]

Make it 4 for MD,DO (which would stand for "Doctor of Medicine, Diplomate of Osteopathy" as we did not earn 2 doctorates).

+1 from me. I think it's a great idea. The first DO medical school to adopted this degree designation, would catapult itself ahead of all others in the race for good applicants - something for the deans to consider.

 

[4Doc4]

6 Yea:MD,DO
1 Yea:MDO

 

[Peptoboy]

Funny how the first school to make a change would catapult itself. It is telling to me that we are more concerned about the two initials offered by the school rather than a good old fashion education. Whether or not the school makes the change, it will still be recognized by the medical establishment as a "good" or "bad" school. The residency director is not going to be any more or less impressed with you!

 

[4Doc4]

Funny how the first school to make a change would catapult itself. It is telling to me that we are more concerned about the two initials offered by the school rather than a good old fashion education. Whether or not the school makes the change, it will still be recognized by the medical establishment as a "good" or "bad" school. The residency director is not going to be any more or less impressed with you!

Really???? From every post on this thread that is what you came up with?

 

[miam042]

Well we are all in luck. As Im sure you all know TCOM is looking into awarding a DO,MD degree. It is one of the three options they are considering
1. Separate DO and MD schools
2. Same school separate degree programs
3.Combined degree program MD,DO

Im a fan of the 3rd option.

Problem is, the TOMA (AOA affiliate in Texas) is throwing a fit over this. At the current time this is the closest our profession is to changing the degree. To read more, here is a good link:
http://www.txosteo.org/Documents/TCOM/tcom_update.htm

You can write TCOM on their site in support of this idea starting in February. I suggest you do.

Now, back to the subject at hand. Lets change the degree!!! Im a fan of MD,DO as well, but Im not sure that is realistic as in, I dont think many MDs are going to like that idea. Unless we are going
to merge I believe MDo is a more realistic option for immediate change.

 

[goosedander]

Why haven't people just talked of approaching this dilemma by circumventing everyone and petitioning the legislature to allow DOs to use MD,DO given that we are professional equivalents (we might have to take the USMLE or something to do this). The reasoning we would give is that most patients are unaware of the distinction and doing so would give the patient a greater degree of informed consent, or something along those lines.

 

[cyclohexanol]

TCOM students are in a unique position to seize this issue. They should go for an "all or nothing" approach: Either give us a combined degree or nothing at all. They shouldn't fall the trap of how the MD program benefits them. It never does. Just ask others that have tried (UMDNJ, Touro etc).

7 Yea: MD,DO
1 Yea: MDO

+1 MD,DO

I'd rather not have either, this whole separate but equal distinction is bogus. In other words, just offer the same ****ing degree for medicine. However, barring that solution, I'd be a proponent of MD, DO. Although I think the DO should be a diploma level designation.

 

[niranjan162]

TCOM students are in a unique position to seize this issue. They should go for an "all or nothing" approach: Either give us a combined degree or nothing at all. They shouldn't fall the trap of how the MD program benefits them. It never does. Just ask others that have tried (UMDNJ, Touro etc).

7 Yea: MD,DO
1 Yea: MDO

ok i see what you're going for i thought it was MD/DO. MD,DO is much better.

u can make it

8 Yea: MD,DO

 

[Concubine]

Problem. I think you are going to run into some staunch opposition with the MD,DO idea. Lots of people are going to see it as false marketing in that it looks like you have two degrees (for example, MD/PhD or MD/MPH). Especially those docs out there that like to line up their degrees on the wall to impress people. I'm all for one degree, but if you can't have that, then I'm for the MDO degree since it's probably more likely to break through the opposition. I'm an allopath, so hope my vote counts.

 

[Peptoboy]

Really???? From every post on this thread that is what you came up with?

I apologize if anyone was offended with my comment, I am actually in agreement with the idea that something needs to be done for D.O. recognition and I think changing to something like M.D.O. would help out, I was simply pointing out that the change will not "catapult" a school. Caribbean schools offer the M.D. and are still known as "Caribbean schools", and a school like Rockyvista will still be recognized as "for profit" regardless, but that is another issue.
I am for change.

 

[J1515]

Funny how the first school to make a change would catapult itself. It is telling to me that we are more concerned about the two initials offered by the school rather than a good old fashion education. Whether or not the school makes the change, it will still be recognized by the medical establishment as a "good" or "bad" school. The residency director is not going to be any more or less impressed with you!

Nobody here in this 3 page thread cares about that (although they will say they do). Even if they are forced into FP in rural North Dakota, and even if every residency director rejects them from their program because they are not fooled by this DO/MD nonsense, at least they can tell their friends they're an MD. The funny thing is, if by some miracle the schools did decide to award a DO/MD, and by some miracle the more competitive applicants started applying, a lot of these people on this thread that are whining wouldn't even get accepted anymore and would never have the opportunity to become a doctor. I await the responses of all the DO students and their friends who had 40 MCATs and a 3.9 GPAs and only applied to DO schools.

Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. The fact that so many people got into a medical school with subpar stats (compared to allopathic) and will have the opportunity to become physicians isn't enough.

 

[4Doc4]

Nobody here in this 3 page thread cares about that (although they will say they do). Even if they are forced into FP in rural North Dakota, and even if every residency director rejects them from their program because they are not fooled by this DO/MD nonsense, at least they can tell their friends

Nobody here in this 3 page thread cares about that (although they will say they do). Even if they are forced into FP in rural North Dakota, and even if every residency director rejects them from their program because they are not fooled by this DO/MD nonsense, at least they can tell their friends they're an MD. The funny thing is, if by some miracle the schools did decide to award a DO/MD, and by some miracle the more competitive applicants started applying, a lot of these people on this thread that are whining wouldn't even get accepted anymore and would never have the opportunity to become a doctor. I await the responses of all the DO students and their friends who had 40 MCATs and a 3.9 GPAs and only applied to DO schools.

Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. The fact that so many people got into a medical school with subpar stats (compared to allopathic) and will have the opportunity to become physicians isn't enough.

You are the one that drives in the far left lane going 55 in a 65. Does anybody else know how smart you are?

 

[sexyman]

Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. The fact that so many people got into a medical school with subpar stats (compared to allopathic) and will have the opportunity to become physicians isn't enough.

It is enough for me lol

 

[JaggerPlate]

Nobody here in this 3 page thread cares about that (although they will say they do). Even if they are forced into FP in rural North Dakota, and even if every residency director rejects them from their program because they are not fooled by this DO/MD nonsense, at least they can tell their friends they're an MD. The funny thing is, if by some miracle the schools did decide to award a DO/MD, and by some miracle the more competitive applicants started applying, a lot of these people on this thread that are whining wouldn't even get accepted anymore and would never have the opportunity to become a doctor. I await the responses of all the DO students and their friends who had 40 MCATs and a 3.9 GPAs and only applied to DO schools.

Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. The fact that so many people got into a medical school with subpar stats (compared to allopathic) and will have the opportunity to become physicians isn't enough.

If so ... then good. Weed out those who shouldn't have been there in the first place, make more respected etc. I figured you'd be in support of weeding out the 3.0, 22 applicants.

 

[DannMann99]

I had a 3.8gpa, graduated with 2 majors, volly'd for 2 years, and got a 27T on my mcats (first shot) only took them once, decided not to retake them.

I only wanted to apply in state. Thats what I did. Now i'm going to be a DO. Honestly its a little depressing being the top of my class with stats... but if I really cared I would have retaken the mcat, got a 30 and went MD. that would have required a year break though.

I decided to not take an additional year to practice medicine. Sure going allo would have been nice, but is it worth another year of my life? No.

People should not worry so much. I believe I read somewhere ~25% of all med students are DOs now... thats recognition I can live with.

 

[ceftazidime]

Funny how the first school to make a change would catapult itself. It is telling to me that we are more concerned about the two initials offered by the school rather than a good old fashion education. Whether or not the school makes the change, it will still be recognized by the medical establishment as a "good" or "bad" school. The residency director is not going to be any more or less impressed with you!

This is a valid point, but the purpose of a designation change is not to impress program directors or the medical establishment. We all know that changing our designation will not all of a sudden transform every DO school into Johns Hopkins. And besides, the higher-ups in the medical profession (program directors, chairmen, etc) do not look at the initials after our name, they look at the school... which will always say "XXX College of Osteopathic Medicine", and supporters of designation change have no desire to change that. There are excellent DO schools and there are not-so-excellent ones... programs that are familiar with students from particular schools will preferentially choose them, regardless of whether they are DO or MD.

The purpose of change, in my opinion, is 2-fold:
1) Public recognition of DOs as "real physicians" (which is debatable, as some of us say we are already well-recognized)
2) Consistency with the words written on our degree, which is not debatable at all. If our degree says "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine", how does that logically translate simply to "DO"? Can anybody think of any degrees where all words are not represented by the initials? (besides ours)

 

[NJWxMan]

Interesting comments being thrown around by many first and second year students. I'm at the end of my medical school career. I am proud of the DO degree that I have worked extremely hard towards. In the end, you will find that as a DO student or resident, that your knowledge base and abilities are generally equal to those of your allopathic peers. In any case, working within the walls of dozens of different outpatient clinics, I can honestly say that 95% of the patients would not understand the concept that their FP, Pediatrician, Surgeon, etc. , did not have the degree title of MD, rather DO. They view their physician as "Doctor"; they have trust in you and they rely on you to take care of them as best as possible. They do not know that this same person does not have an MD. However, the final question a first year or second year should ask is: does it really matter? If the patient is happy with your care and you are legally licensed to practice, would a change in degree truly change ANYTHING other than possibly some of your egoes when explaining to your family members that you truly are going to "medical school". I am all for a degree change, but I am also for increased research and data behind the concepts that are taught in our schools. I am for a mixed population in the AOA administration and board of trustees, instead of the same twenty people. Osteopathic Medicine is going places; it is truly an exciting time to be a DO; however, we need the AOA to catch up to the progression of our school systems.

 

[ceftazidime]

The funny thing is, if by some miracle the schools did decide to award a DO/MD, and by some miracle the more competitive applicants started applying, a lot of these people on this thread that are whining wouldn't even get accepted anymore and would never have the opportunity to become a doctor.

Plenty of people would still become doctors... ever heard of Caribbean schools? You are a hard person to please... you seem to want DO schools to improve their quality of applicants, yet are opposed to something that might just do it, even if it's "by some miracle". How do you suggest DO schools improve their quality of applicants while MD schools continue to expand?

 

[metalmd06]

If I had to vote for any change, I think that OMD would be most appropropriate. MDO sounds a little jilted, while Osteopathic Medical Doctor, flows better. However, I think that OMD is granted to those who train in oriental medicine, so I don't know if that would fly. As far as MD, DO is concerned, I don't think that's going to fly either. To me, it just feels like we are stealing the allopathic degree designation. If there is to be a change in the osteopathic degree designation, it should be something new that will reflect our training and expertise in practice. MDO here.

 

[slick27]

I think MD, DO sounds good, but in reality nothing will happen. I do however have one major flaw with DO, at least in my mind. DO is considered a separate profession from MD, yet DO is the only profession that comes to mind that allows another profession (MDs) to train its profession (DO). Doesn't make any sense to me. But, I'm going to be one.

 

[Buckeye4life]

If the MD thing doesn't work out, I say we get creative: |\/|D

Alright, just legally change your last name to end in an M, capitalize it...then you can sign your charts something like: Joe MalcolMDO

 

[spicedmanna]

DO is considered a separate profession from MD, yet DO is the only profession that comes to mind that allows another profession (MDs) to train its profession (DO). Doesn't make any sense to me.

That's because in reality they aren't separate professions. It works the other way around, too. Both MD's and DO's train each other. I don't know how anyone in this day and age can say that they are separate professions. Just go out to any clinical setting where both are practicing side-by-side. I challenge anyone to try to tell the difference. I don't think it would be very easy to tell the difference between them, with the exception of a minority of cases, since the role and standard of care used is completely identical. Physicians are physicians, whether MD or DO. Period.

The further along I go, the less difference I see between the two and I didn't think there was much difference to begin with. At some point, the AOA is going to have to recognize that there isn't any real difference except for the legacy they are trying to cling to in order to justify their own existence, but it won't be now. They are going to fight this for as long as they can. Nobody wants to give up power and money.

As for changing the degree, well I am not for it at all. It's pointless to change it to anything other than MD, but that will not ever happen as long as the AOA exists. I'm fine with having a DO. I think attempting to change designations is a fool's task. Focus on what matters, on what can make the biggest difference, and what is viable: becoming good physicians, fixing our broken GME system, and improving the quality of our programs/education/facilities.

 

[spicedmanna]

I applaud that you are trying to do something, but I'm telling you, the AOA is going to fight you to the death. I would be pleasantly surprised if they do anything that will hasten it's own demise. No, I predict that they will cling like bulldogs to legacy to justify their own existence as they have in the past. The AOA will stand in the way of what you want. They don't want integration. What they want is to stay separate, but equal, which history has shown to be a false premise. Staying separate allows those in power to stay in power. So they are going to happily stick their heads in the sand and pretend that there really is a difference between MD's and DO's and maintain the distinction in designation. What we need to do and what the AOA needs to do is to get to the crux of the matter and realize that there hasn't been a significant difference between the two designations for a long while now. That acknowledgment would go a long way. I think commitment needs to change first, before anything else changes.

I don't know what the solution is, but I'm going to focus on becoming the best physician I can be right now. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I think that's how all great change happens: from within. Hahaha...maybe it's the fact that I'm going to be taking my boards soon.

 

[4Doc4]

I applaud that you are trying to do something, but I'm telling you, the AOA is going to fight you to the death. I would be pleasantly surprised if they do anything that will hasten it's own demise. No, I predict that they will cling like bulldogs to legacy to justify their own existence as they have in the past. The AOA will stand in the way of what you want. They don't want integration. What they want is to stay separate, but equal, which history has shown to be a false premise. Staying separate allows those in power to stay in power. So they are going to happily stick their heads in the sand and pretend that there really is a difference between MD's and DO's and maintain the distinction in designation. What we need to do and what the AOA needs to do is to get to the crux of the matter and realize that there hasn't been a significant difference between the two designations for a long while now. That acknowledgment would go a long way. I think commitment needs to change first, before anything else changes.

I don't know what the solution is, but I'm going to focus on becoming the best physician I can be right now. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I think that's how all great change happens: from within. Hahaha...maybe it's the fact that I'm going to be taking my boards soon.

Anything is possible. Having the numbers to support a cause increase the notion that everything is possible.

andexterouss - get that website up, post it here. Having a place for every group to go will help further this cause. Having a mix of MD and DO's will be invaluable. Go forth my brother!

 

[spicedmanna]

Anything is possible. Having the numbers to support a cause increase the notion that everything is possible.

That's just rhetoric. Anyway, I don't disagree with what you want. What I disagree with is the argument that the cornerstone of reform is going to be changing the designation, at least from where I am standing at this point in time.

 

[4Doc4]

That's just rhetoric. Anyway, I don't disagree with what you want. What I disagree with is the argument that the cornerstone of reform is going to be changing the designation, at least from where I am standing at this point in time.

Maybe. But, it is a step in the right direction.

 

[DannMann99]

If you are indeed going to make a website. Might I suggest one of those setups which have pre-written letters that people sign there name to and it gets mailed out to that persons selected state representative/senator/congressman/AOA delegate/AMA delegate/whoever else.

I think that would make it alot easier for people to submit their complaints. Not that I completely agree with the idea, but hopefully at worst it will show the aoa that DOs are demanding more.

 

[simpleman]

Yes, I'm going to make a website. I'm looking over plans, layout etc. The pre-written letter sounds like a good idea!
If you have a template/draft copy of such letter, PM me. We can go over it together . Thanks.

Good....let me know if i can help in anyway...i will get you both 2011 and 2012 class members at my school to sign the letter and petitions.

Lets do this guys!!! we can do it! and if there are monetary challenges, i am willing to put my share down, right now!!!

 

[spicedmanna]

I like the idea. Does anyone know who actually designates the degree? If a single DO school, for example, wanted to grant a different degree name, could they, and could they choose it? And what are the subsequent legal/licensing ramifications of a degree change?

If so, it would be helpful to get this going from a student body level - each student body petitioning their own school, and then letting the school recognize that this is happening at all the schools - some kind of viral ****.

As someone mentioned, NOVA's dean apparently understands the problem and would like a degree change. That's a helluva start if we could use that fuel to start a fire.

i believe the designation is done at the individual state level.

 

[Flushot]

I mean who has the authority. In other words, could the AOA be circumvented if they stood in the way.

Well, we were talking about the COCA and accredidation. This is probably why TCOM's situation is unique; it is being denounced by all of the associations, but it is really up to UNT's Board of Regents and the state legislature, since it seems that TCOM being a DO school is in their charter. But, all of this can change.

 

[cyclohexanol]

I like the idea. Does anyone know who actually designates the degree? If a single DO school, for example, wanted to grant a different degree name, could they, and could they choose it? And what are the subsequent legal/licensing ramifications of a degree change?

The schools grant the degree, so if they want to change it they can. The caveat is that the COCA accreditation standards for osteopathic medical schools states that in order to be accredited (S2.2) they must confer the DO degree.

So they could change it, but that would invalidate accreditation, unless S2.2 of COCA standards is revised.

 

[ceftazidime]

The schools grant the degree, so if they want to change it they can. The caveat is that the COCA accreditation standards for osteopathic medical schools states that in order to be accredited (S2.2) they must confer the DO degree.

So they could change it, but that would invalidate accreditation, unless S2.2 of COCA standards is revised.

Does it specifically say "DO degree" or "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine degree" because if it's the latter, then the schools should be free to change to MDO if they like. Changing to MD/DO might be harder since the actual words written on our degree would have to change too.

 

[Old_Mil]

Well said Spicedmanna.I appreciate the thoughtful response and honesty . AOA will fight back that's for sure.*Bracing myself*.

At the end of the day,we have as much right to call ourselves MD,DO just as dentists who are trained in oral surgery call themselves MD,DDS.It's an accurate representation of the totality our training. Osteopathic medicine is just one part of our training.

You've hit upon a great idea, andexterouss...I suspect the majority of DO's - probably even a large majority - are with you. The only question is, after the website, after the petition, then what? 100% of all DOs in practice who aren't in positions of power in the AOA could sign and they won't listen.

This is going to be a fight for the long haul. It'll probably involve lawyers and lawsuits at some point. It may even involve forming a national organization of progressive DOs to try and supplant the AOA.

At any rate, if there's anything I can do to help, let me know.

 

[J-Rad]

Well said Spicedmanna.I appreciate the thoughtful response and honesty . AOA will fight back that's for sure.*Bracing myself*.

At the end of the day,we have as much right to call ourselves MD,DO just as dentists who are trained in oral surgery call themselves MD,DDS.It's an accurate representation of the totality our training. Osteopathic medicine is just one part of our training.

I don't feel like commenting on the main argument of this thread (163 posts are more than I want to read) other than to say changing the degree is a useless digression from fixing the real problems of the profession and will change nothing. And, frankly, even amongst those that think think that there ARE problems, don't have any particular desire to have a different degree.

My comment is in re the above: doing an oral surgery residency does NOT make one qualified to list oneself as MD, DDS/DMD. The people who can legitimately call themselves that have done an OMFS residency that incorporates extra time (six year total for OMFS+MD vs. the 4 year OMFS residency) and earned an MD. UCSFs program lays it out like this: The Program is accredited for four residents per year in a six year program. The duration of the OMFS/MD program is as follows: "PGY I - OMFS Internship; PGYII and III - Medical School; PGY IV -- Medical School, where applicable, MD degree awarded; PGY V -- General Surgery residency; PGY VI - OMFS chief resident". In fact there was a bit of controversy w/in one of the OMFS societies in recent years when an elected official adertised himself as DMD, MD when he basically got his MD through one of those buy-your-MD Caribbean programs. I believe he was pressured to stop using that designation. So citing this example works against you argument that you should get an MD because you went to some type of medical school.

 

[DannMann99]

I don't feel like commenting on the main argument of this thread (163 posts are more than I want to read) other than to say changing the degree is a useless digression from fixing the real problems of the profession and will change nothing. And, frankly, even amongst those that think think that there ARE problems, don't have any particular desire to have a different degree.

If you're going to make a website like that. Maybe you should have a page with all the gripes of DOs.

Also, maybe you'd want to work closely with SOMA? I'd imagine they'd be a bit more progressive then the AOA proper

 

[DOinMS]

Does it specifically say "DO degree" or "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine degree" because if it's the latter, then the schools should be free to change to MDO if they like. Changing to MD/DO might be harder since the actual words written on our degree would have to change too.

Section 2.2 of the accreditation standards states:
The governing body will confer the degree Doctor of Osteopathy (D.O.) or Doctor of
Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.) upon those students who have satisfactorily completed the​

requirements for graduation and have been recommended for graduation by faculty.

So the COCA accreditation standards already designate "D.O." to mean Doctor of Osteopathy and Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine. There is not, however, a trademark on the terms and abbreviations.

Accreditation is a dual relationship, but the reality is that COCA needs the schools more than the schools need COCA. Unfortunately for COCA, it doesn't accredit over 100 schools (like LCME). If the majority of the current D.O. schools decided to abandon COCA, become LCME accredited, and offer a diploma or master's in OMT, then COCA would implode. The only school that has to stay with them is RVU-COM because it is for-profit.

Remember that in 1892 Kirksville was given the right to award the M.D. I wonder if the original charter that grants that right is still valid? It was, afterall, the school's choice to go with the D.O.

Also, maybe you'd want to work closely with SOMA? I'd imagine they'd be a bit more progressive then the AOA proper

SOMA is an impotent organization and is intimidated to call for such changes. I've talked to my state AOA reps and SOMA reps, as Dr. DiMarco suggested, and neither is willing to stand up with the bullseye on their back.

 

[sexyman]

For those of you that are so passionate about a degree change...were you this passionate when you decided to apply to DO schools as well?

I also don't understand why there is such a negative vibe about "the profession" on these boards. Everyone talks about "all the problems" and "things we need to change". At my school were are constantly matching students in great residencies, were are actively opening new residency programs in internal med, fam med, derm, and gen surgery for students...everything is going really well.

Seems like a great time to become a DO to me. I just find it odd for us to apply, get into a school, and immediately want to change the degree designation. If there are so many problems and you hate the title DO so much why did you apply and accept to begin with?

 

[ceftazidime]

For those of you that are so passionate about a degree change...were you this passionate when you decided to apply to DO schools as well?

Nope. When I decided to attend a DO school, I was excited about the prospect of "treating the whole patient rather than symptoms", being able to diagnose and treat with my hands rather than relying on medications, and learning medicine from a whole different perspective than that of the common MD.

Well, I got scammed. I obtained an MD curriculum with the addition of 3 hours of OPP per week. I did rotations with MD students where nothing we learned in DO school put us above them, except for the fact that we could crack each other's backs now and then. I learned nothing in DO school stating that "this is the MD method of treatment, but this is the DO treatment which is far superior". Our school gave us a discount for board prep, but what were the books we received? 8 Kaplan USMLE books, with one packet of COMLEX questions. Basically I am passionate for a change because of this: I received an MD education with a little bit more, hence my designation should represent that.

If I truly felt that I had something totally different to offer my patients than my MD colleagues, I would advertise that and fight to make it known that DOs are significantly different and can offer better care. The AOA spreads this propaganda (albeit inefficiently as the public still isn't aware of DOs), and it's how a lot of us got suckered in.

At my school were are constantly matching students in great residencies, were are actively opening new residency programs in internal med, fam med, derm, and gen surgery for students...everything is going really well.

That is fantastic, and I hope this trend continues. But still, at this present time there are more DOs graduating than there are DO residency spots, and technically we could sue the AOA for not providing us with enough post-graduate education necessary for board certification in our field of choice. However, most of us just want to move on with our careers so we just match allo. The osteopathic profession is making improvements, but it seems like they are focused more on quantity and money (branch campuses, for-profit schools) rather than quality education.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Get lawyers and go above people's heads.

 

[stonewall22]

Nope. When I decided to attend a DO school, I was excited about the prospect of "treating the whole patient rather than symptoms", being able to diagnose and treat with my hands rather than relying on medications, and learning medicine from a whole different perspective than that of the common MD.

Well, I got scammed. I obtained an MD curriculum with the addition of 3 hours of OPP per week. I did rotations with MD students where nothing we learned in DO school put us above them, except for the fact that we could crack each other's backs now and then. I learned nothing in DO school stating that "this is the MD method of treatment, but this is the DO treatment which is far superior". Our school gave us a discount for board prep, but what were the books we received? 8 Kaplan USMLE books, with one packet of COMLEX questions. Basically I am passionate for a change because of this: I received an MD education with a little bit more, hence my designation should represent that.

If I truly felt that I had something totally different to offer my patients than my MD colleagues, I would advertise that and fight to make it known that DOs are significantly different and can offer better care. The AOA spreads this propaganda (albeit inefficiently as the public still isn't aware of DOs), and it's how a lot of us got suckered in.



That is fantastic, and I hope this trend continues. But still, at this present time there are more DOs graduating than there are DO residency spots, and technically we could sue the AOA for not providing us with enough post-graduate education necessary for board certification in our field of choice. However, most of us just want to move on with our careers so we just match allo. The osteopathic profession is making improvements, but it seems like they are focused more on quantity and money (branch campuses, for-profit schools) rather than quality education.

This is not true. 100s of spots go unmatched each year. Source:

https://www.do-online.org/index.cfm?PageID=sir_match08res

Now, you might say they don't have enough specialty choices, but ACGME participants likely could make the same complaint about competitive residencies like urology, orthopaedics, etc.

 

[Peptoboy]

For those of you that are so passionate about a degree change...were you this passionate when you decided to apply to DO schools as well?

I also don't understand why there is such a negative vibe about "the profession" on these boards. Everyone talks about "all the problems" and "things we need to change". At my school were are constantly matching students in great residencies, were are actively opening new residency programs in internal med, fam med, derm, and gen surgery for students...everything is going really well.

Seems like a great time to become a DO to me. I just find it odd for us to apply, get into a school, and immediately want to change the degree designation. If there are so many problems and you hate the title DO so much why did you apply and accept to begin with?

Good post, I am very happy with where I am at. Before entering I shadowed 3 D.O. physicians, one F.P. and two E.R. and grew to know them well. Not one of them spoke of how they were persecuted or how patients "did not consider them physicians". As I have said before, I am for a small change to the initials, maybe M.D.O. for recognizability, but I knew before I started medical school that it was an "MD" cirriculum with some OMM and I liked the sound of it. That is what Osteopathic Physicians are, if not, go to an allopathic school or the carribean. Believe it or not, there are people out there that like being an Osteopathic Medical Doctor.

 

[ceftazidime]

This is not true. 100s of spots go unmatched each year. Source:

https://www.do-online.org/index.cfm?PageID=sir_match08res

Now, you might say they don't have enough specialty choices, but ACGME participants likely could make the same complaint about competitive residencies like urology, orthopaedics, etc.

Right, according to that link, there are 2312 spots and almost half are unfilled since ACGME residencies are open to us. But if for some odd reason the ACGME closed its doors to DOs, what would happen to the 5000 DOs that graduate each year? (I don't know the exact number, but there are 25 schools with about 200 students each).

Now there is no easy solution to this, since the programs can't just open more spots if so many are already unfilled, but it certainly doesn't help that there is rampant growth of DO schools with a mismatched growth in residency spots. Anyways, I just brought up that point because someone posted that "everything is going really well" in the DO world.

 

[misery]

"Another option to consider for those of you who are really fed up with your degree designation, is to switch schools or return to school for an MD degree. No one forced the DO degree upon you. You chose to attend an osteopathic medical school and you knew going in the degree was DO."

This may have been said, I'm not interested enough to read the entire posts. But you are delusional if you think people chose to go to a DO program, I did because that was my only choice, I'd do it again if that was my only choice because it has set me up to get into a residency and allow me to practice. But if you think people should come to DO programs only if they want to be a DO, then you'll eliminate probably 75% of every class and lower the avg admitted GPA to what 2.0 with an MCAT of 10? You people that want to make love to AT Still need to get a grip and realize people aren't here to be a DO they're here to be a Doctor, and many times they don't choose DO, it chooses them. There is nothing wrong with wanting to raise the standards and combining the degree and combining the boards would be a huge step.

 

[niranjan162]

This may have been said, I'm not interested enough to read the entire posts. But you are delusional if you think people chose to go to a DO program, I did because that was my only choice, I'd do it again if that was my only choice because it has set me up to get into a residency and allow me to practice. But if you think people should come to DO programs only if they want to be a DO, then you'll eliminate probably 75% of every class and lower the avg admitted GPA to what 2.0 with an MCAT of 10? You people that want to make love to AT Still need to get a grip and realize people aren't here to be a DO they're here to be a Doctor, and many times they don't choose DO, it chooses them. There is nothing wrong with wanting to raise the standards and combining the degree and combining the boards would be a huge step.

Current applicants apply to both M.D. and D.O. like he says they want to be drs

 

[Peptoboy]

This may have been said, I'm not interested enough to read the entire posts. But you are delusional if you think people chose to go to a DO program, I did because that was my only choice, I'd do it again if that was my only choice because it has set me up to get into a residency and allow me to practice. But if you think people should come to DO programs only if they want to be a DO, then you'll eliminate probably 75% of every class and lower the avg admitted GPA to what 2.0 with an MCAT of 10? You people that want to make love to AT Still need to get a grip and realize people aren't here to be a DO they're here to be a Doctor, and many times they don't choose DO, it chooses them. There is nothing wrong with wanting to raise the standards and combining the degree and combining the boards would be a huge step.

I don't think that you should have to "want" to be a D.O., but as you already know well, there are other avenues that can get you the coveted M.D., such as Carribean, and hey you're in luck, they have lower MCAT and GPA than even D.O. I agree there is nothing wrong with wanting to change the degree, but there are only so many people that apply to med school every year, what makes you think it will raise standards.
I graduated with a 3.78 GPA and while my mcat isn't the highest with a 28, I feel like I was just as qualified as quite a few allopaths and I only chose D.O.

 

[The Virginian]

I don't think that you should have to "want" to be a D.O., but as you already know well, there are other avenues that can get you the coveted M.D., such as Carribean, and hey you're in luck, they have lower MCAT and GPA than even D.O. I agree there is nothing wrong with wanting to change the degree, but there are only so many people that apply to med school every year, what makes you think it will raise standards.
I graduated with a 3.78 GPA and while my mcat isn't the highest with a 28, I feel like I was just as qualified as quite a few allopaths and I only chose D.O.

I've been following this thread and I have a few observations...

1) If AOA is wanting to strictly follow A. T. Still's program, they will eliminate the EBM of the program and include magnets and laying on of hands. It's been a while since I've read The D.O.'s but I think there was a mention that as soon as Still died, a more traditional curriculum was added. Bottom line is that they pick and choose.

2) AOA knows they have a near monopoly for a second chance to practice medicine. I think I recall reading that a previous AOA president told students that if they didn't like the way things were, they could leave and also that they would not be doctors without them.

3) I do not know but I am guessing that many of the "new" AOA residencies are simply rebranding of "old" ACGME residencies. Hospitals are always anxious to keep their numbers up and fear losing dollars and have been receptive. The AOA is merely taking credit for the efforts of others.

4) A few years ago, the president of the AAMC threw out for discussion possibly eliminating all non-LCME graduates from ACGME residencies so the possibility, albeit probably slight, is out there.

5) If the AMA decides to ease up on their standards and allow a fold-over of D.O. schools into their organization, it will be a stampede.

6) A possible answer is to put pressure and votes on your state chapter of the AOA. You might be able to attack the AOA intrasigence from within where you will never be able to from without.