Debt pissing contest

[AlmostAnMD]

The "average" indebtedness is around $170,000. I find that laughable since I'm not on any scholarship assistance.

Just wondering who here has the worst debt from medical school (if you feel like sharing) and what your plans are to pay it back.

Myself, I'll be at around $300k when finished.

My fiancee is faculty at the institution I want to match into and apparently they have a spouse matching program that lets people without a red flag match there. I only bring that up because she has a very good job there and said she'd pay my interest while I use my salary to pay off the base. Starting PGY 2 or 3 I'll hopefully moonlight like crazy. I don't want to do IBR for X number of years I just want this debt gone.

No option in poll for <$100,000 since I don't care about you.

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[CherryRedDracul]

No option in poll for <$100,000 since I don't care about you.

Wow. Okay. Haters gonna hate.

 

[el_duderino]

Right around $300k.

 

[AlmostAnMD]

Soooo any thoughts on how you'll pay that back?

 

[AlmostAnMD]

mods ban this user ^

 

[LostinLift]

Have you read any of White Coast Investor? Or Mr. Money Mustache? Both are good blogs that have solid financial advice, though they are coming from different places.

"Suck it up" as much as you can and live well below your means for a few years... you should be able to decimate that debt.

 

[fastlane]

$0

Lol

mods ban this user ^

LOL

 

[el_duderino]

Soooo any thoughts on how you'll pay that back?

I was figuring I'll try getting a job as a doctor. That might work.

 

[colbgw02]

Well, we got a little bit of a pissing match here, but I think what the OP really wanted a debt d*ck measuring contest.

 

[circulus vitios]

$0

 

[TeddyMeddy]

.

 

[Ophthoseidon]

Holy F%$& seriously how is it possible to have more than 600k? lol does max COA of undergrad and med school combined even allow that?

 

[Cytarabine]

~300k. If I do a peds subspecialty, I'm really hoping PSLF will still be around. If I do adult, it shouldn't be too much of a problem to manage with or without PSLF

 

[ValentinNarcisse]

Holy F%$& seriously how is it possible to have more than 600k? lol does max COA of undergrad and med school combined even allow that?

Easy. Ivy League undergrad (~60K x 4 yrs) + Private Medical School (50K x 40yrs) gets you pretty close to that. Not to mention ancillary expenses throughout the process. Unfortunately with need-based financial aid at these institutions, unless you are in abject poverty, you receive no aid.

 

[DermViser]

No option in poll for <$100,000 since I don't care about you.

 

[darklabel]

~325k and fedloan conveniently sends me periodic emails about how much interest is accruing daily .

 

[pathologyDO]

Almost exactly $200k at graduation. Hah and yeah I'm tired of receiving emails from my federal loan people too. They always send me these really nice emails about how paying down loan interest now can lower my payments later! Wow, what a concept... paying loan interest with loan money. Sounds like they know how to do their jobs

 

[Silent Cool]

Holy F%$& seriously how is it possible to have more than 600k? lol does max COA of undergrad and med school combined even allow that?

If you attend any one of the private SMPs out there (~60-70K COA per year, or have that much undergrad debt), and attend practically any of the private medical schools (80K+ COA), you will be right at 600K assuming 7.35% interest at the end of a 3-year primary care residency. If you do allergy, endocrinology, or rheum (or some other 5-year track), you will be right at 700K.

Or, if you attend dental school (private) and then specialize at any of the many tuition-charging programs, you will owe at least 700K+ at the end of your training.

 

[pathologyDO]

If you attend any one of the private SMPs out there (~60-70K COA per year, or have that much undergrad debt), and attend practically any of the private medical schools (80K+ COA), you will be right at 600K assuming 7.35% interest at the end of a 3-year primary care residency. If you do allergy, endocrinology, or rheum (or some other 5-year track), you will be right at 700K.

Or, if you attend dental school (private) and then specialize at any of the many tuition-charging programs, you will owe at least 700K+ at the end of your training.

True but I think the poll refers to debt at graduation from medical school, not residency, but I could be mistaken

 

[Silent Cool]

True but I think the poll refers to debt at graduation from medical school, not residency, but I could be mistaken

In my scenario a student would owe ~485K at graduation.

Ridiculous and egregious and absurd.

 

[W19]

Soooo any thoughts on how you'll pay that back?

~26ok for me... I got sick to my stomach even writing that amount... That kind of money can get one a nice house in the south. I will start paying mine during residency by continuing living like a student on that 15k/year 'stipend' for living expenses. If I got the opportunity to moonlight, I will try to reduce my loan amount in half by the time I am done with residency. Going to med school is bad financial decision, but as a non-trad I couldn't not see myself working for another 30+ years doing a job that I don't enjoy... I stayed away from med school because of that financial aspect of it, but it would have been 10%-15% cheaper had I done it back then... Oh well! can't change what's been done, so now let me concentrate on the task in front of me and try to make the best out it.

 

[DermViser]

Soooo any thoughts on how you'll pay that back?

 

[DermViser]

~26ok for me... I got sick to my stomach even writing that amount... That kind of money can get one a nice house in the south. I will start paying mine during residency by continuing living like a student on that 15k/year 'stipend' for living expenses. If I got the opportunity to moonlight, I will try to reduce my loan amount in half by the time I am done with residency. Going to med school is bad financial decision, but as a non-trad I couldn't not see myself working for another 30+ years doing a job that I don't enjoy... I stayed away from med school because of that financial aspect of it, but it would have been 10%-15% cheaper had I done it back then... Oh well! can't change what's been done, so now let me concentrate on the task in front of me and try to make the best out it.

Except that house can depreciate in value. Your MD doesn't.

 

[W19]

Except that house can depreciate in value. Your MD doesn't.

One can lose his/her medical license as well...

 

[DermViser]

One can lose his/her medical license as well...

Still doesn't depreciate in value. You can lose your medical license in one state, but you can also practice in another state and get a license there. Heck there are many MDs who don't even practice medicine period and go into other sectors (public policy, pharma, biotech, hospital admin, etc.) and one of their credentials they carry is the MD.

 

[sazerac]

Except that house can depreciate in value. Your MD doesn't.

Every time medicare lowers its reimbursement rates, an MD depreciates in value.

 

[DermViser]

Every time medicare lowers its reimbursement rates, an MD depreciates in value.

No, it just means you cram in more patients in a day to get the same total amount of reimbursement.

 

[W19]

Still doesn't depreciate in value. You can lose your medical license in one state, but you can also practice in another state and get a license there. Heck there are many MDs who don't even practice medicine period and go into other sectors (public policy, pharma, biotech, hospital admin, etc.) and one of their credentials they carry is the MD.

But 200k+ for a MD degree is a hefty price tag... Can't complain because 1000s people would not mind being in my position...

 

[DermViser]

But 200k+ for a MD degree is a hefty price tag... Can't complain because 1000s people would not mind being in my position...

My point is it doesn't depreciate in value. Meaning its value doesn't go down. Much different than a house or a car when you drive it off the lot. That says nothing about the actual price tag, in terms of tuition fees.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I will start paying mine during residency by continuing living like a student on that 15k/year 'stipend' for living expenses

Huh?

If I got the opportunity to moonlight, I will try to reduce my loan amount in half by the time I am done with residency.

Haven't you said you're interested in non-surgical fields?

Very hard to earn 6 figures moonlighting during a clinical residency, especially these days. The only people I know who have earned close to that much are surgical residents who moonlight a ton during their 2 year research fellowship. If you are clinical, moonlighting hours count toward the 80 hr limit at most institutions (even external moonlighting). Many programs actually have outright bans on moonlighting, especially intern year.

 

[W19]

My point is it doesn't depreciate in value. Meaning its value doesn't go down. Much different than a house or a car when you drive it off the lot. That says nothing about the actual price tag, in terms of tuition fees.

Lol... I guess i did not what is depreciation...

 

[MedWonk]

About 225k combined med school/undergrad/post-bacc loans. About 20k of that is an in-house loan from my med school that accrues no interest until after residency, though it accumulates 8% interest thereafter. I forget the exact terms, but it gets forgiven in some way if one goes into primary care. I probably won't, but it's nice to not have interest accruing on part of loan for the time being.

 

[W19]

Huh?



Haven't you said you're interested in non-surgical fields?

Very hard to earn 6 figures moonlighting during a clinical residency, especially these days. The only people I know who have earned close to that much are surgical residents who moonlight a ton during their 2 year research fellowship. If you are clinical, moonlighting hours count toward the 80 hr limit at most institutions (even external moonlighting). Many programs actually have outright bans on moonlighting, especially intern year.

I am interested in psych/FM... I think I can start at least paying some interest during residency; my spouse should have an income...

 

[TeddyMeddy]

.

 

[AlmostAnMD]

So far 5 people over 500 ouch. Would love to hear how they will realistically pay that off. I mean that's like $4,000 a month of interest alone. Looking upwards of a million dollars by the time that nastiness is gone.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

My point is it doesn't depreciate in value. Meaning its value doesn't go down. Much different than a house or a car when you drive it off the lot. That says nothing about the actual price tag, in terms of tuition fees.

Houses and cars are very different kinds of assets. I know you're going to come back and say you knew that but the fact is that you still grouped them together. A car almost ALWAYS depreciates in value (except in the rare case where you happened to buy some crazy rare collectors car). Real estate actually GENERALLY appreciates in value historically (or at least tends to hold its value). They're also extremely different types of assets for tax purposes.

 

[sazerac]

So far 5 people over 500 ouch. Would love to hear how they will realistically pay that off. I mean that's like $4,000 a month of interest alone. Looking upwards of a million dollars by the time that nastiness is gone.

An MD generally earns about $4 million dollars of discretionary income in the first twenty years post graduation (this includes residency). PAYE takes 10% of that and then the loan is forgiven. It will be extremely rare for any medical student to pay off more than $400K on any student loan, ever.

Conceptually these aren't even loans anymore; they are temporary income taxes. Payment size and duration is not tied to principal. Payment size and duration is not tied to interest rates. Both are irrelevant in today's student loan environment. The only thing payments are tied to is current income.

 

[Baller MD]

An MD generally earns about $4 million dollars of discretionary income in the first twenty years post graduation (this includes residency). PAYE takes 10% of that and then the loan is forgiven. It will be extremely rare for any medical student to pay off more than $400K on any student loan, ever.

Conceptually these aren't even loans anymore; they are temporary income taxes. Payment size and duration is not tied to principal. Payment size and duration is not tied to interest rates. Both are irrelevant in today's student loan environment. The only thing payments are tied to is current income.

You assume PAYE will be around indefinitely...

 

[DermViser]

Houses and cars are very different kinds of assets. I know you're going to come back and say you knew that but the fact is that you still grouped them together. A car almost ALWAYS depreciates in value (except in the rare case where you happened to buy some crazy rare collectors car). Real estate actually GENERALLY appreciates in value historically (or at least tends to hold its value). They're also extremely different types of assets for tax purposes.

You apparently missed the stock market crash in 2008.

 

[TeddyMeddy]

.

 

[pathologyDO]

I think an MD can make you middle class to basically rich. It's about how much you save early on and how much help you can get. If you max out a roth ira in your 20s and get 8% growth you net about a million when you retire. If you go into a high-paying specialty and save a good chunk of your income and invest wisely, you can net quite a bit. And if you get help from relatives for tuition, you can also come out quite ahead. Each of those things adds up and means you can pay less interest on debt and earn more interest on investments. So I think the range of possibilities is huge for doctors...on one hand you will have someone 300K in debt going into primary care...they will probably come out way behind the radiologist who had help in medical school, started investing early and lived relatively frugally. But pretty much everyone will be above average.

Lol, how are you going to max out your roth if you don't even graduate medical school until ~27?

Unfortunately, pre-med (I mean that as kindly as possible), you get tired of delayed gratification after while. Even after just 2 years of medical school its getting really tiring to think of "someday, I will have bank! But wait, I need to save it up to have more bank!" Saving all your money after you've already lost your prime years that are the 20's isn't as easy as it sounds, I'm sure. You eventually realize how finite life is and how every year the quality decreases a little more. Wanna save all your money to give away before you croak? Great, but I would rather enjoy the spoils of my hard work while I can enjoy it most as a younger adult, not an old guy who has increased risk of dieing from cancer or about 1 million other maladies at any time.

Carpe diem

Disclaimer: I will be paying my loans off ASAP and putting away plenty for my childrens education.

 

[W19]

I think an MD can make you middle class to basically rich. It's about how much you save early on and how much help you can get. If you max out a roth ira in your 20s and get 8% growth you net about a million when you retire. If you go into a high-paying specialty and save a good chunk of your income and invest wisely, you can net quite a bit. And if you get help from relatives for tuition, you can also come out quite ahead. Each of those things adds up and means you can pay less interest on debt and earn more interest on investments. So I think the range of possibilities is huge for doctors...on one hand you will have someone 300K in debt going into primary care...they will probably come out way behind the radiologist who had help in medical school, started investing early and lived relatively frugally. But pretty much everyone will be above average.

$1 million is not enough to retire comfortably assuming you will get the usual 4-5% ROI... You need at least $2 million so you can get 80-100k/year pre-tax... Even that is not high if you still have some outstanding debt i.e mortgage payment etc...

 

[pathologyDO]

Bottom line here is I don't think you will ever be truly "rich" by entering medicine. Upper middle class under ideal conditions, yes, but rich... not really.

 

[W19]

Lol, how are you going to max out your roth if you don't even graduate medical school until ~27?

Unfortunately, pre-med (I mean that as kindly as possible), you get tired of delayed gratification after while. Even after just 2 years of medical school its getting really tiring to think of "someday, I will have bank! But wait, I need to save it up to have more bank!" Saving all your money after you've already lost your prime years that are the 20's isn't as easy as it sounds, I'm sure. You eventually realize how finite life is and how every year the quality decreases a little more. Wanna save all your money to give away before you croak? Great, but I would rather enjoy the spoils of my hard work while I can enjoy it most as a younger adult, not an old guy who has increased risk of dieing from cancer or about 1 million other maladies at any time.

Carpe diem

Disclaimer: I will be paying my loans off ASAP and putting away plenty for my childrens education.

What does that even mean? This is probably something that will have a different meaning for most...

 

[W19]

Bottom line here is I don't think you will ever be truly "rich" by entering medicine. Upper middle class under ideal conditions, yes, but rich... not really.

What is the definition of rich? I think financially, most physician will be in the upper middle class. However, the ones that know how to take care of their money should make it into rich category after 15+ years post residency. Of course I am assuming that they have the average debt post med school and the usual 200-250k salary.

 

[graviton]

Ah medical school, a place where having a 0 dollar balance qualifies you as rich.

(zero dollar crew checking in)

 

[sazerac]

Disclaimer: I will be paying my loans off ASAP and putting away plenty for my childrens education.

You know, I've seen this sentiment a lot on SDN throughout the years, and I think it may explain why we are feeling the financial crunch. Ask any SDN member, up to his or her eyeballs in student debt, what they plan to do when they are making bank, and one of the first things they say is Pay for my children's education instead of letting them fall into student debt. In another words, not only are we paying educational costs for ourselves, but we have the burden of multiple educational costs for the next generation too.

Maybe that is the ultimate in physician delayed gratification... paying multiple student debts for 40 or 50 years, so that at least our children can keep everything they earn in their 20s and beyond.

 

[circulus vitios]

You know, I've seen this sentiment a lot on SDN throughout the years, and I think it may explain why we are feeling the financial crunch. Ask any SDN member, up to his or her eyeballs in student debt, what they plan to do when they are making bank, and one of the first things they say is Pay for my children's education instead of letting them fall into student debt. In another words, not only are we paying educational costs for ourselves, but we have the burden of multiple educational costs for the next generation too.

Maybe that is the ultimate in physician delayed gratification... paying multiple student debts for 40 or 50 years, so that at least our children can keep everything they earn in their 20s and beyond.

Fool me once...

 

[pathologyDO]

What does that even mean? This is probably something that will have a different meaning for most...

If you cannot extrapolate what that means, sorry. Move on.

 

[pathologyDO]

What is the definition of rich? I think financially, most physician will be in the upper middle class. However, the ones that know how to take care of their money should make it into rich category after 15+ years post residency. Of course I am assuming that they have the average debt post med school and the usual 200-250k salary.

Well rich can mean either upper class, or, it can be somewhat of a subjective idea.

I do not think that making 250k a year, which turns out to be something around 125k a year after taxes, can make you rich. You work 40 years you can save back 5 mil total, and with investing and interest rates that are good enough maybe add another 1 or 2 mil. Then look at Joe Schmoe making maybe 30K per year post taxes, which after 40 years is 1.2 mil. To me comparing 1.2 to 5 mil doesn't at all make a doctors salary rich comparatively.

If you own a successful PP and make $1mil a year or something.... Maybe we can talk about you hitting it rich. But that is very rare.