KmcHugh,
•••quote:••• Essentially, what you are saying is that learned, intelligent people (like, say, physicians) deserve the incomes they receive, and more. At the same time, other, less intelligent knuckle draggers (like, say, nurses) deserve to live in poverty for having the temerity to have not attended medical school. ••••I will go one further. We, as physicians, deserve whatever it is we get. Please see the multiple threads on the lawsuit against the NRMP. Instead of lobbying together (Which CRNAs do quite well), physicians explore every possible way to substantiate slave labor and base salary. If CRNA's are able to make that kind of living, more power to em. There are certain things we might glean from collecvtice and cohesive efforts.
•••quote:••• Now, a number of points posted by Kelbsiella need answering ••••Uh Oh, now I'm in the dog house
•••quote:••• I?d say The Lancet is a far cry from Nature, wouldn?t you? But your comments highlight an interesting flaw with medical training. Unless research is performed and published by a physician, you seem to consider it to be worthless. ••••No I'm not saying that. But there are levels of research. There is also an abundance of it. And simply because some Nurse publishes, doesn't mean it's worth quoting. This is certainly the case here. If you continue to use this as a source, I will continue to point out how such a poor one it is.
I don't think you have to be a physician to render an excellent publication. However, as a group, there is no question that they are the standard of publication quality. Look at any copy of NEJM or Nature, and you will see enormous study, by incredibly educated individuals. Their experience and expertise make them better. Had your CRNA run this study with a more experienced and respected researcher, it might have more weight. As it stands, the study is dead weight. Continuing to site it really works to lighten the caliber of your argument immensely.
•••quote:•••But ?most? does not equate to ?all.? Your attitude is ?if it ain?t done by an MD, it ain?t worth reading.? Very thin argument. ••••Thats not what I'm saying at all. As someone with probably a little more experience in research (no disrespect intended) than you, I can easily say there are tons of Phd's for example who both work independantly and in concert with physicians to meet out prime material. CRNA's are simply not a force in medical research, and while you might find a handful of semi-newsworthy studies by CRNA's, I might find you literally millions by MDs. I can see that you seem slighted by these comments, so let me offer the following thought. Nurses are not inherently dumb. I never ever said they were. They are limited by their training, period.
•••quote:••• Exactly where do you get your knowledge of what ?nurses in general, and CRNA?s in particular? have learned? In any event, you are exactly wrong. As I pointed out in my previous post, in CRNA master?s programs (which all CRNA programs are), many of the textbooks used are the same as those used in medical school. ••••This is where your argument really goes off the deep end. I am actually more familiar with CRNA education than you might think, although I'm not at liberty to divulge how. Simply using the same text as proof of an equivalent education goes well beyong what is reasonable, and I suspect that flaky comments like this, is what attracts the ire of so many on this board. I'm not even gone dignify this comment any more than I already have. But who am I to say? I say some very irritating things myself. In fact the moderators are close to shutting my account down. Go figure.
•••quote:••• I am telling you that I learned far more than you would suggest by your ?rote repetition? comment. ••••Perhaps this comment was a bit extreme, and I'm more than willing to retract it.
•••quote:••• Like you, they have had more experience in that particular instance.? You can?t really have it both ways. If the education alone was sufficient to handle the situation, then the residents to whom I referred should have known, by virtue of education, what to do next. You can have all the education in the world, but what prepares you for ?the oddball case? is experience. Nothing more, nothing less. ••••Actually, my thinking process was really very clear. I actually stated that 'experience' goes a long way in this business. In fact, it does in many medical specialties. I'm one of a shrinking minority who actually thinks most of primary care medicine can be handled by nurse practitioners. Emergency, rare Anesthesia care is something quite different. And the fact that you think you can handle rare and life threatening Anesthesia cases at the same level of a physician is alarming. I would venture that this attitude might even put one of your patients in jeapordy one day. You might very well be good at what you do, I couldn't say, I just know you from your posts. But I do know that those who are cavalier with their skills, and turn a blind eye to their limitations, very often get bit real hard. In the case of Anesthesia care, someone might actually die.
•••quote:••• will go into these cases expecting the worst, and will mentally prepare yourself for it. ••••Again, you are very confused and missing the point. A CRNA is limited by education. Your training, and the knowledge base you receive from it are very small compared to a fully trained MD. You can 'mentally prepare yourself' but you cannot conjure up information that you have never learned. Again, this isn't a knock on CRNAs, it's merely a limitation of the radically different and inferior training they receive.
•••quote:•••Interesting comment. Do you always accept what ?we know to be intuitively true?? At one time, we knew intuitively that the world was flat, the sun rotated around the earth, and that God would never allow one of his creations to become extinct. Just a thought. ••••Interesting point. I will ponder it on philosophy rounds this afternoon. Problem is your thoughts are designed to undermine anything that is intuitively true. At some point, we must take the leap of faith (shiver). In point of fact, intutitive truth is something that we all rely on thousands of times a day. I simply don't have the time to study and publish multicollaberated studies in nature on gravity before I get out of bed in the morning. Too little funding out there for this sort of thing.
•••quote:••• One final thought for you, however. Again, you contradict yourself. Here at the end of your post, you tell me that you have the utmost respect for nurses. Yet throughout the rest of your post, you denigrate nurses, categorizing them as people will little real education, who can only perform tasks learned by rote memorization and repetition. ••••You seem to be only reading the 'denigrating' parts of my posts. I think you will find that I have had far more positive things to say about nursing care of the year than many others. My point, that I have repeated ad nausem, is that nurses are limited by their training. It is also that they are not inherently dumb. While their training certainly incorporates some knowledge base, you cant even compare it in the same breath as to what a physician recieves, and yes this extends beyond medical school.
•••quote:••• According to your post, higher levels of thought are reserved for those with MD behind their name. Respectfully, allow me to ask what are your real beliefs? ••••I place no limits on who is capable of 'higher thought.' If I have confused this issue, I apologize. You clearly have a better handle on the thinking process than many others I have engaged on this board. There are bright, level headed, expert nurses out there, that I would be very proud to work with. There are also a number of bafoon physicians. This board provides ample fodder to substantiate the latter. Rather than debate me, some of my colleagues got so worked up, that they publically called for my death, and likened me to one of the most flagitious animals in history, who perpetuated the genocide of 6 million Jews. All because they didn't agree with my posts. And this radical and sick thought was actually supported by a number of posters on this board.
The difference, again
, comes from the training. Your average bafoon physician still has a much broader knowledge base to draw upon.
