Creation of an Optometric Surgery Residency (analagous to OMFS for Dental)

[MR1]

I totally agree with KHE. To become an ocular surgeon you would have to complete the same training as current ophtho's. So to avoid just going to medical school, convice them to comp you one year basic science. You still have to take all 3 steps of the USMLE. Do 2 years of clinical medicine, do one year internship. Maybe someone convice the ophtho residency to start you as a PGY-3 so you end up just doing 2 years of ophtho residency. THen you would be equivalent. Until then I just don't see setting up a different route to the same goal just because someone that went to OD school made the wrong decision.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[qwopty99]

I don't think you can make that leap.

Yes, opticians can be trained to perform refractions as well as any OD. There is nothing magical or mystical about the art of refraction. However, the difference here is that ODs are trained to assess the health of the eye to ensure that where that reduced vision is coming from, and always have been even if they may not have been licensed to treat whatever it was they found. Opticians are not.

What doesn't "leap"? That the two aren't "slightly analogous"?

Ophthalmologists and opticians will tell us ODs that optican scope expansion is somewhat analogous in nature to optometry scope expansion. If ODs don't recognize that fact, it's probably because they're ODs. Don't forget that Optometry hasn't always existed, and we too started out as non-refracting "opticians". Without going into the history of Optometry, you should be aware that the arguments that "we" used to justify refraction legislation 100 years ago are quite similar to the ones used by opticians to justify scope expansion today. And 100 years ago we weren't asking to assess the health of the eye (and probably didn't know how).

It is far more risky to the health of the public to have opticians refracting independently than it was for optometrists to be using tropicamide.

We aren't talking about tropicamide. We are talking about surgery, and the argument can be made that optometric surgery is more "risky" than optician refraction. Maybe ODs here won't agree, and maybe it isn't true, both both OMDs and opticians will certainly say that it is.

An MD and optician might say,

It is far more risky to the health of the public to have optometrists performing surgery independently than it is for opticians to refract.


If you think optician refraction doesn't essentially have a "precedent", then you might want to research a little into the history of our profession.



"Optometrists" didn't always "have" refraction.

 

[qwopty99]

And nothing good will come out of adding more and more distrust on this topic. You can see what I wrote below as others have talked about it. I read my post today, and I thought a lunatic had wrote it. If you want to poke fun of me, then that's perfectly reasonable since I deserved it. For those of you who read that and got upset, then I can do nothing else but apologize for making such a lunatic comment such as that. In the past I have had uncontrolled outburst of random diatribes, and it keeps appearing every once and while. Some people get road rage, others get internet rage. Again I apologize to the readers of this forum.
[/size]

I'd just like to say I didn't think your post was inherently "wrong". I got the gist of your post.

The extent and force in which you presented your "idea" was a bit surprising, but you did bring up some "very" valid arguments that are certainly relevant to the discussion.


The desire of optometry to expand their scope is treated like a unique health care situation among some on these forums. But one seems to forget to realize that many other groups have as much legitimate claim to expanding their scope as "we have" to expand ours (if we in fact, do).

Questioning whether some of those other parallel scope-expansion-desires of other professions should go forward too, is a reasonable point of debate within the context of ours, and is (in my opinion) worthy of mention.

 

[Free Radicle]

I have read these kinds of threads for a couple of years now. I have worked as an ophthalmic technician for 6 years before medical school in both an academic setting and private practice setting. I know full well how OD and MD work together in both settings. I agree with most of the postings that money is what drives the cooperative relationship between the two.

To those posters who think going to optometry school is anywhere close to going to medical school - ah hell no. Both are hard, but the two are not analogous in anyway. To those in optometry who compare your medical training to medicine by saying you get "credit hours" in medicine or pharmacy or whatever else, I say get a clue. The only "credit" that counts anywhere in the world is street credit meaning that ODs will know what that means when the buck stops with them. I am not saying that happens in medical school either, but it sure does in internship.

Agreed that medical school teaches very little about the eye, but overall they get tested on all major medical/neurological/anatomical aspects of the eye.

Both students are bright. Are optom students capable of doing surgery --- absolutely. My mom is capable of doing surgery - that is the point no one gets, everyone can do a lap chole, appy, cataract extraction, ventric, etc

-----------BUT-----------

The privelage to do surgery is earned by sweating your butt off seeing patients. That means staying up through all hours of the night, weekends, holidays and post call seeing the non surgical issues, and when the surgical case comes -- your senior gets it, while you keep seeing the other non surgical stuff so you know it cold. You manage the post surgical patients to see complication, deal with them so it all makes you a better surgeon, including the complications that happen past 5pm/holidays/weekends.

In my mind optoms doing surgery has little to do with scope of practice, competency or money; it has to do with taking a short cut to an end through which I worked hard to get to it. Yes, I know you worked hard - I worked harder, sacraficed more and sweated more. If that offends I am sorry you feel that way, but when the optoms and optom residents that go home at 5pm as I start call every 4th night and 4th weekend (which is a cush call) you will understand why I come to that conclusion. If you feel like that you can do surgery on the eye after optom school that is good - it means you feel comfortable around the eye, but you must earn that privelage. But optoms know what ophthalmologist do and they know what optoms do at the get go. If you want to do ophthalmic surgery - go to medical school to be able to earn that privelage.

The post is NOT meant to incite/anger but it is meant to enlighten as to how one ophthalmology resident feels about the situation in general. Look forward to seeing replies.

 

[hello07]

I don't know if this will ever happen in my lifetime; but one day, the 2 professions -optometry and ophthalmology will perhaps become ONE.
Anybodies guess as to the future......who knows? Look at the history of optometry the past 3 decades and perhaps one might say "the past is prologue to the future." Only time will tell............................

 

[vsarge0708]

I have read these kinds of threads for a couple of years now. I have worked as an ophthalmic technician for 6 years before medical school in both an academic setting and private practice setting. I know full well how OD and MD work together in both settings. I agree with most of the postings that money is what drives the cooperative relationship between the two.

To those posters who think going to optometry school is anywhere close to going to medical school - ah hell no. Both are hard, but the two are not analogous in anyway. To those in optometry who compare your medical training to medicine by saying you get "credit hours" in medicine or pharmacy or whatever else, I say get a clue. The only "credit" that counts anywhere in the world is street credit meaning that ODs will know what that means when the buck stops with them. I am not saying that happens in medical school either, but it sure does in internship.

Agreed that medical school teaches very little about the eye, but overall they get tested on all major medical/neurological/anatomical aspects of the eye.

Both students are bright. Are optom students capable of doing surgery --- absolutely. My mom is capable of doing surgery - that is the point no one gets, everyone can do a lap chole, appy, cataract extraction, ventric, etc

-----------BUT-----------

The privelage to do surgery is earned by sweating your butt off seeing patients. That means staying up through all hours of the night, weekends, holidays and post call seeing the non surgical issues, and when the surgical case comes -- your senior gets it, while you keep seeing the other non surgical stuff so you know it cold. You manage the post surgical patients to see complication, deal with them so it all makes you a better surgeon, including the complications that happen past 5pm/holidays/weekends.

In my mind optoms doing surgery has little to do with scope of practice, competency or money; it has to do with taking a short cut to an end through which I worked hard to get to it. Yes, I know you worked hard - I worked harder, sacraficed more and sweated more. If that offends I am sorry you feel that way, but when the optoms and optom residents that go home at 5pm as I start call every 4th night and 4th weekend (which is a cush call) you will understand why I come to that conclusion. If you feel like that you can do surgery on the eye after optom school that is good - it means you feel comfortable around the eye, but you must earn that privelage. But optoms know what ophthalmologist do and they know what optoms do at the get go. If you want to do ophthalmic surgery - go to medical school to be able to earn that privelage.

The post is NOT meant to incite/anger but it is meant to enlighten as to how one ophthalmology resident feels about the situation in general. Look forward to seeing replies.

Maybe it's the medical hierarchy that needs to change--I honestly feel that the current system is somewhat obsolete and outdated. I've witnessed yags, trabs, lasik and other superficial surgeries and I must say they didn't seem any more difficult than putting a tonomoter probe on an eyeball. Say what you want to say about surgical complications--if that was one of the concerns of ophthalmologists (and it is, at least in their lobbying efforts apposing ODs doing surgery) then why are optometrists doing most post-op care anyway? Realistically speaking, how much of your knowledge from your ob/gyn/all other rotations do you use in your day to day ophthalmology residency? I would bet that it is slim, and I would also bet that the knowledge base you do use--we probably receive similar training in anyway. [Now I know that's only speculation and we will never have an unbiased opinion to say otherwise--John Doe, OD, MD would be biased towards med school so I don't want to hear his/her arguement either.] Let's be frank here, there is absolutely no reason that skilled and willing optometrists should not be doing superficial eye surgeries (supply and demand aside, KHE). The only reason we aren't doing surgery is money and outdated "rules". Not everyone is cut out to be a surgeon, so obviously whatever does happen, i.e. optometric surgery residency, needs to be a selective process. Personally I have no desire to do anything more than maybe chalazion removal and possibly refractive surgery--I feel that these procedures fall into the category of primary eye care. The current medical model needs a face-lift and that face-lift needs to include competent, well trained optometrists performing superficial surgical procedures.

 

[hello07]

Refractive surgery falls into primary eye care category? How so?
re shaping someone's corneal surface either by Lasik, PRK, etc.......is primary care?
How will you handle any serious complications that may arise from these cosmetic procedures?

 

[vsarge0708]

Refractive surgery falls into primary eye care category? How so?
re shaping someone's corneal surface either by Lasik, PRK, etc.......is primary care?
How will you handle any serious complications that may arise from these cosmetic procedures?

The same way you would if you had any confidence, doctor. Does crt/ortho-k fall under primary care? Obviously it's not the same as lasik/prk but fundamentally they have the same idea: reshape the cornea to adjust refractive error. And if this optometric surgery residency did exist, don't you think managing complications would be part of the course objectives?

 

[qwopty99]

I thought both Free Rad's and vsarge's posts were each (very) excellent.

What I don't think I've seen yet, however, is a good answer to the "Why" question. Why should OD's do surgery? There doesn't seem to be a shortage of eye surgeons, so why do we need to train more?

 

[hello07]

vsarge0708,
confidence, and I am assuming you mean self- confidence means nothing. You can be as confident as all you want, "self fullfilling prophesy" as stated, and still get BURNED in a clinical scenario UNLESS you have the KNOWLEDGE and WISDOM of knowing what to do and what not to do all thru EXPERIENCE.
Tell me future doctor, who will be teaching you these procedures and how to handle these complications in your fantasy optometric residency? Optometrists who have the WISDOM thru knowledge and experience or OPHTHALMOLOGISTS?

 

[vsarge0708]

vsarge0708,
confidence, and I am assuming you mean self- confidence means nothing. You can be as confident as all you want, "self fullfilling prophecy" as stated, and still get BURNED in a clinical scenario UNLESS you have the KNOWLEDGE and WISDOM of knowing what to do and what not to do all thru EXPERIENCE.
Tell me future doctor, who will be teaching you these procedures and how to handle these complications in your fantasy optometric residency? Optometrists who have the WISDOM thru knowledge and experience or OPHTHALMOLOGISTS?

Thanks, Yoda but you better leave this one to Obi-Wan. My visual optics professor, an OD/Phd has done an excellent job thus far at teaching us the SCIENCE [I can use caps too, buddy, so calm down--you're coming on to strong] of laser surgery. But surely I could go to Montego Bay and take the weekend lasik certification course and have time for the added catamaran/snorkeling activity.

 

[eyestrain]

hello07, you'll soon find out, if you haven't already, that some optometry students on this forum are the resident experts on everything. They don't care how long you've been out in the real world, if your experience/advice/opinion doesn't fit their fantasy land ideas of optometry, they just won't listen.

 

[KHE]

Thanks, Yoda but you better leave this one to Obi-Wan. My visual optics professor, an OD/Phd has done an excellent job thus far at teaching us the SCIENCE [I can use caps too, buddy, so calm down--you're coming on to strong] of laser surgery. But surely I could go to Montego Bay and take the weekend lasik certification course and have time for the added catamaran/snorkeling activity.

Do they teach you how to repair a free cap, or a buttonhole flap in that weekend course, or is that taught in the TWO weekend course?

 

[KHE]

The same way you would if you had any confidence, doctor. Does crt/ortho-k fall under primary care? Obviously it's not the same as lasik/prk but fundamentally they have the same idea: reshape the cornea to adjust refractive error. And if this optometric surgery residency did exist, don't you think managing complications would be part of the course objectives?

If you are seriously making the claim that the complications of ortho-K are the same as the complication of LASIK, then I'm speechless. Managing surgical complications of LASIK doesn't just involve learning techniques to manage this specific complication or that complication. It involves developing a skill set of broader surgical techniques that is best developed within the confines of a broader surgical residency.

For example....the repair of a free cap may involve the placement of an interrupted suture. You are not going to become skilled at doing that just by doing them on LASIK complications alone.

 

[hello07]

vsarge0708,
I bow down to you oh future optometric physician in all its glory and power. You and several other over- confident and delerious optometry students will be my future heroes whom I can call for any advice ranging from simple specatcle prisciptions to horshoe retinal tair repairs and re adjusting the displaced corneal flap.

I am not worthy. I bow........................

Seriously, I can go off on you, but I smell another 2 week ban if not more. i learned it's not worth it.

 

[vsarge0708]

vsarge0708,
I bow down to you oh future optometric physician in all its glory and power. You and several other over- confident and delerious optometry students will be my future heroes whom I can call for any advice ranging from simple specatcle prisciptions to horshoe retinal tair repairs and re adjusting the displaced corneal flap.

I am not worthy. I bow........................

Seriously, I can go off on you, but I smell another 2 week ban if not more. i learned it's not worth it.

Haha, evolve.

 

[vsarge0708]

hello07, you'll soon find out, if you haven't already, that some optometry students on this forum are the resident experts on everything. They don't care how long you've been out in the real world, if your experience/advice/opinion doesn't fit their fantasy land ideas of optometry, they just won't listen.

Who's not listening? Just because a student doesn't comform with your mediocre views of our profession doesn't mean we don't listen. I'm merely offering an idea.

It's rather disheartening to see practicing professionals with such a lackluster view of progression. Apparently you can't teach old dog new tricks, you remind me of my grandparents.

 

[hello07]

vsarge0708,
you too can evolve my friend. I'll tell you how. Very simple: MCAT's, apply to MD schools, get in, do well, rock step 1, do well in your 3 rd year rotations, do some research if that interests you, get good LOR's, and nget into an ophthalm residency. Then, walk the big talk you only you know so well. It's that simple. Pay the price from the aforementioned, and you will have evolved into what you want to become. Now, isn't that simple?

 

[JAZZEYE]

I don't think you can make that leap.

Yes, opticians can be trained to perform refractions as well as any OD. There is nothing magical or mystical about the art of refraction. However, the difference here is that ODs are trained to assess the health of the eye to ensure that where that reduced vision is coming from, and always have been even if they may not have been licensed to treat whatever it was they found. Opticians are not.

It is far more risky to the health of the public to have opticians refracting independently than it was for optometrists to be using tropicamide.

Stop Ken ...... that makes way too much sense.

 

[Oculomotor]

Guys let's keep this civil.......ok? cool

vsarge0708 has a good point regarding evolution. The impetus for adding an optometric surgery to select few of the best optometry students is not for financial gain, rather it is a natural progression of a wonderful profession. I agree with him that there are many OD's out there that have a very "static" view of the profession and the idea of any kind of opthalmic surgery "scares" them! Be not afraid my comrades! The OMFS programs in dentistry have 4 years of intense training that gives them ALL the skills necessary to operate and manage complications resulting from a surgery gone "bad." This would definitely apply to a potential optometric surgery residency. What it boils down to is the collective institutional hubris of medicine believing that certain things such as "surgery" and a field of eye medical-surgical care are "prized" items and should remain under the umbrella of medicine. Do you know of any MD's---Medical organizations---Medical schools that complain about dentists doing surgery in the oral cavity? NO WAY because it is not an analagous area to a field in medicine. The eye is more "presitigous" than the oral cavity and medicine has fought hard to prevent optometric expansion over the last 40 years (although generally unsuccessfully! thank god). Now I believe that Free Radicle makes excellent points arguing against mine. (Your avatar rocks by the way!) KHE is "traditional" and not prepared "philisophically" for optometry to make that "leap." BUT I am telling you if there is not an optometric surgery residency established in the next 10-20 yrs you WILL see a few states "peppered" across the map with varying levels of optometric surgery (if the bill in california passes it will open the door to the future of that in that state---and there shall be more states to follow.) If ophthalmology and optometry had any foresight (which they don't) they would hold a national conference with all of the state optometry and ophthalmology associations present and do these things:

1) Establish an agreed upon scope of practice for primary care optometrists without ridiculous limitations based on historical animosity from medicine.
2) AAO Officially recognizes Optometrists as the "Primary Eye Care Doctor" as well as any ophthalmologists who choose to do "Medical Ophthalmology and not operate"
3) Establish an agreed upon optometric surgery residency (3-4 yrs long) after OD school (with modifications for selected canidates) GOING BACK TO MEDICAL SCHOOL AND ADDING ANOTHER $200k OF DEBT IS NOT AN OPTION FOR PETE SAKE!--absurd and dumb.
4) Work together and have OD's on all insurance panels and with limited hospital privileges (ie admitting a patient that has an emergency). Full privileges for optometric surgeons.
5) AAO stops its insulting smear campaigns on optometry and changes its literature which (I have read) basically degrades the OD profession.
6) Optometry recognizes Ophthalmologists and Optometric Surgeons as the official "Eye Care Specialists).

The sad thing is all of that will NEVER happen. I would bet that Vanderbilt would win the BCS Championship before this would happen! lol Instead, Lawyers will get rich, I will donate thousands of dollars to my state PAC, we will all smile and nod (OD's and MD's) when dealing with patients while our state organizations have nothing but contempt for each other, and we will have OD's that can do PRK in one state but cannot do injectables in another. This is the unfortunate future........

Any comments are appreciated......Thanks

 

[Oculomotor]

Guys let's keep this civil.......ok? cool

vsarge0708 has a good point regarding evolution. The impetus for adding an optometric surgery to select few of the best optometry students is not for financial gain, rather it is a natural progression of a wonderful profession. I agree with him that there are many OD's out there that have a very "static" view of the profession and the idea of any kind of opthalmic surgery "scares" them! Be not afraid my comrades! The OMFS programs in dentistry have 4 years of intense training that gives them ALL the skills necessary to operate and manage complications resulting from a surgery gone "bad." This would definitely apply to a potential optometric surgery residency. What it boils down to is the collective institutional hubris of medicine believing that certain things such as "surgery" and a field of eye medical-surgical care are "prized" items and should remain under the umbrella of medicine. Do you know of any MD's---Medical organizations---Medical schools that complain about dentists doing surgery in the oral cavity? NO WAY because it is not an analagous area to a field in medicine. The eye is more "presitigous" than the oral cavity and medicine has fought hard to prevent optometric expansion over the last 40 years (although generally unsuccessfully! thank god). Now I believe that Free Radicle makes excellent points arguing against mine. (Your avatar rocks by the way!) KHE is "traditional" and not prepared "philisophically" for optometry to make that "leap." BUT I am telling you if there is not an optometric surgery residency established in the next 10-20 yrs you WILL see a few states "peppered" across the map with varying levels of optometric surgery (if the bill in california passes it will open the door to the future of that in that state---and there shall be more states to follow.) If ophthalmology and optometry had any foresight (which they don't) they would hold a national conference with all of the state optometry and ophthalmology associations present and do these things:

1) Establish an agreed upon scope of practice for primary care optometrists without ridiculous limitations based on historical animosity from medicine.
2) AAO Officially recognizes Optometrists as the "Primary Eye Care Doctor" as well as any ophthalmologists who choose to do "Medical Ophthalmology and not operate"
3) Establish an agreed upon optometric surgery residency (3-4 yrs long) after OD school (with modifications for selected canidates) GOING BACK TO MEDICAL SCHOOL AND ADDING ANOTHER $200k OF DEBT IS NOT AN OPTION FOR PETE SAKE!--absurd and dumb.
4) Work together and have OD's on all insurance panels and with limited hospital privileges (ie admitting a patient that has an emergency). Full privileges for optometric surgeons.
5) AAO stops its insulting smear campaigns on optometry and changes its literature which (I have read) basically degrades the OD profession.
6) Optometry recognizes Ophthalmologists and Optometric Surgeons as the official "Eye Care Specialists).

The sad thing is all of that will NEVER happen. I would bet that Vanderbilt would win the BCS Championship before this would happen! lol Instead, Lawyers will get rich, I will donate thousands of dollars to my state PAC, we will all smile and nod (OD's and MD's) when dealing with patients while our state organizations have nothing but contempt for each other, and we will have OD's that can do PRK in one state but cannot do injectables in another. This is the unfortunate future........

Any comments are appreciated......Thanks

 

[Free Radicle]

The point of my thread was not that optoms were not capable of doing surgery, indeed I acknowledged that my mother could do some of the surgeries. About the statement that you manage post op patients, no you do not. You might manage the uncomplicated straight forward post op cataracts. You do not manage post op trabs or tubes. You do not do laser suture lysis, you do not pull stents after doing a conj cut down to open up tubes, you do not inject 5fu for failing blebs. This is what is required in managing post op patients. So do not say you have ever managed these patients.

KHE said it as well, LASIK is easy but when the flap becomes free = then what. There is a saying, if you do a surgery that patient is yours for life - complications and everything. If one is not prepared to deal with the complications then there is risk for bad outcomes b/c the surgeon is not mentally equiped to predict and therefore prevent complications.

Even the talk of chalazia I & D - complications arise.

As to answer how much of our medical knowledge we use everyday -- this just speaks to the ignorance of the difference in what we do. That question shows that you have never gone into a single ER or done a single inpatient consult, which we do everyday, night and holiday - 365 days a year.

So again, earn the right. Yes you are smart. Yes you are fully capable of doing surgery. The hierarchy of medical training evolved to what it is today because it had to. Taking care of the sick meant sacrificing your life to be there. Yes things are changing with newer technologies.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

vsarge0708 has a good point regarding evolution. The impetus for adding an optometric surgery to select few of the best optometry students is not for financial gain, rather it is a natural progression of a wonderful profession.

Incorrect - its always about money.

I agree with him that there are many OD's out there that have a very "static" view of the profession and the idea of any kind of opthalmic surgery "scares" them! Be not afraid my comrades! The OMFS programs in dentistry have 4 years of intense training that gives them ALL the skills necessary to operate and manage complications resulting from a surgery gone "bad."

4 years OD school, 4 years surgical training... well I'll be damned, that's exactly how long it takes to train an ophthalmologist. Another pathway to surgery is not needed.

Furthermore, I don't know how many times this can be said before you finally get it. Dental school trains dentists to do surgery. Their curriculum is geared to teach them exactly what they need to know to be dentists in the current environment. Optometry school, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't have near the surgical training these guys do. Incorporate some of that into your training and then we'll talk.

This would definitely apply to a potential optometric surgery residency. What it boils down to is the collective institutional hubris of medicine believing that certain things such as "surgery" and a field of eye medical-surgical care are "prized" items and should remain under the umbrella of medicine.

I find your tone to be slightly offensive - hubris, seriously now. I'll restate this part again too - medicine doesn't know much about your training. Things we don't know, we don't trust. Simple as that. Fix your training (see Podiatry) then we'll talk.

Oh, and its all about the money.

Do you know of any MD's---Medical organizations---Medical schools that complain about dentists doing surgery in the oral cavity? NO WAY because it is not an analagous area to a field in medicine. The eye is more "presitigous" than the oral cavity and medicine has fought hard to prevent optometric expansion over the last 40 years (although generally unsuccessfully! thank god).

Are you kidding me? "I should've gone to dental school" is a common mantra at med school. Less time in school, more money, little/no call, don't have to take medicare/caid to survive and so on. Prestige has nothing to do with it. You know what does matter? Dentists have always done things this way. Dental surgery is what they do and, as I grow weary of repeating, their school trains them for it.

Medicine has been unsuccessful fighting you guys because you can prove that you are trained for most of what you've been asking for (meds basically). As it stands, I still don't think y'all are trained to do surgery.

Now I believe that Free Radicle makes excellent points arguing against mine. (Your avatar rocks by the way!) KHE is "traditional" and not prepared "philisophically" for optometry to make that "leap." BUT I am telling you if there is not an optometric surgery residency established in the next 10-20 yrs you WILL see a few states "peppered" across the map with varying levels of optometric surgery (if the bill in california passes it will open the door to the future of that in that state---and there shall be more states to follow.) If ophthalmology and optometry had any foresight (which they don't) they would hold a national conference with all of the state optometry and ophthalmology associations present and do these things:

KHE is one of the most rational folks I've seen on here in some time. I think he has a better handle on optometry than anyone I've met in years. Its people like him that broker deals with Medicine so that we can reach some sort of compromise.

You, on the other hand, if allowed a public stage will turn people away from your cause. As I also grow weary of saying, I'm probably the most pro-optometry person you'll ever find in medicine. Folks like you make me rethink that. If this happens to me, imagine all the MDs that are kinda on the fence about this.

1) Establish an agreed upon scope of practice for primary care optometrists without ridiculous limitations based on historical animosity from medicine.

That's fair, just make sure you get moderate folks from both sides. Hard liners on either end will ruin this.

2) AAO Officially recognizes Optometrists as the "Primary Eye Care Doctor" as well as any ophthalmologists who choose to do "Medical Ophthalmology and not operate"

I doubt this will happen anytime soon. We all know that most of y'all are, in fact, the primary eye care folks. However you're asking ophth. to give up any aspect of primary care if they do surgery. Plenty of MDs like surgery and primary care. We shouldn't exclude them just because you want a fancy title.

3) Establish an agreed upon optometric surgery residency (3-4 yrs long) after OD school (with modifications for selected canidates) GOING BACK TO MEDICAL SCHOOL AND ADDING ANOTHER $200k OF DEBT IS NOT AN OPTION FOR PETE SAKE!--absurd and dumb.

You're right... its theoretically possible to make it two years. One year of intense pre-clinical work (yes, it is necessary and no, your's is not the same) and one year of the rotations that we do 3rd year. You apply for the match the same as everyone else and take your chances.

4) Work together and have OD's on all insurance panels and with limited hospital privileges (ie admitting a patient that has an emergency). Full privileges for optometric surgeons.

They way your education is now, not a chance. If you admit someone, you're responsible to some extent for anything that happens while they are in the hospital. Systemic infections, edema, DVT, and so on. I could be wrong, but I don't think you guys are trained for that much systemic medicine.

5) AAO stops its insulting smear campaigns on optometry and changes its literature which (I have read) basically degrades the OD profession.

I completely agree here, I find some of their ads just embarrassing.

6) Optometry recognizes Ophthalmologists and Optometric Surgeons as the official "Eye Care Specialists).[/quote}

Again, no. With a surgical residency and updated OD school, you could probably make it to the same level as a general ophtho. guy. I doubt you'd be prepared for what the retina folks do.

Also, medicine doesn't need you to recognize that ophthalmology is the eye care specialty. Besides, I thought you were trying to just be primary eye providers, now you want to be specialists as well?

The sad thing is all of that will NEVER happen. I would bet that Vanderbilt would win the BCS Championship before this would happen! lol Instead, Lawyers will get rich, I will donate thousands of dollars to my state PAC, we will all smile and nod (OD's and MD's) when dealing with patients while our state organizations have nothing but contempt for each other, and we will have OD's that can do PRK in one state but cannot do injectables in another. This is the unfortunate future........

The thing is, most of the MDs I've met could care less about what you guys do. If anything, we're back to the "medicine doesn't know much about your training". Change that and, at the least, you might be able to standardize scope to some extent.

 

[vsarge0708]

KHE said it as well, LASIK is easy but when the flap becomes free = then what. There is a saying, if you do a surgery that patient is yours for life - complications and everything. If one is not prepared to deal with the complications then there is risk for bad outcomes b/c the surgeon is not mentally equiped to predict and therefore prevent complications.

Even the talk of chalazia I & D - complications arise.

As to answer how much of our medical knowledge we use everyday -- this just speaks to the ignorance of the difference in what we do. That question shows that you have never gone into a single ER or done a single inpatient consult, which we do everyday, night and holiday - 365 days a year.

So again, earn the right. Yes you are smart. Yes you are fully capable of doing surgery. The hierarchy of medical training evolved to what it is today because it had to. Taking care of the sick meant sacrificing your life to be there. Yes things are changing with newer technologies.

1st: I was talking Lasik/refractive surgery post-op.

2nd: Wouldn't one of the focal points of the optometric surgerical residency, as I have already said, be to learn how to handle these complications you speak of? We both know that you couldn't handle these complications yourself had it not been for your residency training. Obviously something along the lines of:
Months on Rotation TOTAL R1 R2 R3 R4 OMFS 36 10 6 8* 12 Anesthesia
5 2 3** - - Internal Medicine
1 1 - - - Cardiology
1 - 1 - - General Surgery
1 - 1 - - Shock/Trauma
1 - - 1 - Surgical ICU
2 - - 2 - * includes three months at Washington VA Medical Center
would be part of the curriculum, And I don't want to hear, "Well historically, Optometry is not a surgical profession." because we are not living in history, we are living in a world where technology is expanding at an exponential rate--[ i.e. the manual phoropter refraction is not going to be around forever]. Again I'm not asking for orbital plate reconstruction all I personally want is chalazion removal [tangent, does anybody know if ODs can perform chalazion removal in New Jersey?] and maybe refractive surgery. The hierarchy is bs, c'mon man don't feed me sh#t and tell me it's a brownie.

 

[vsarge0708]

vsarge0708,
you too can evolve my friend. I'll tell you how. Very simple: MCAT's, apply to MD schools, get in, do well, rock step 1, do well in your 3 rd year rotations, do some research if that interests you, get good LOR's, and nget into an ophthalm residency. Then, walk the big talk you only you know so well. It's that simple. Pay the price from the aforementioned, and you will have evolved into what you want to become. Now, isn't that simple?

Once again, your post gets a .
Fear of change I sense in you.

 

[Free Radicle]

heirchary is part of life, in everything we do not just medicine. I don't understand what the blue numbers mean in the above post.

 

[vsarge0708]

I don't understand what the blue numbers mean in the above post.

They were taken from the dental surgical model--it indicates how many months and of what rotations that they do during their surgical residency.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

heirchary is part of life, in everything we do not just medicine. I don't understand what the blue numbers mean in the above post.

Months on Rotation
TOTAL R1 R2 R3 R4
OMFS 36 10 6 8* 12
Anesthesia 5 2 3** - -
Internal Medicine 1 1 - - -
Cardiology 1 - 1 - -
General Surgery 1 - 1 - -
Shock/Trauma1 1 - - 1 -
Surgical ICU 2 - - 2 -
* includes three months at Washington VA Medical Center


I hope this makes more sense. Its a breakdown of what rotations the OMFS folks take and for how long.


Edit: OK so the formatting isn't quite working out here. Simply put, the first number after the rotation is the total number of hours spent doing that rotation.

 

[KHE]

vsarge0708 has a good point regarding evolution. The impetus for adding an optometric surgery to select few of the best optometry students is not for financial gain, rather it is a natural progression of a wonderful profession. I agree with him that there are many OD's out there that have a very "static" view of the profession and the idea of any kind of opthalmic surgery "scares" them! Be not afraid my comrades! The OMFS programs in dentistry have 4 years of intense training that gives them ALL the skills necessary to operate and manage complications resulting from a surgery gone "bad." KHE is "traditional" and not prepared "philisophically" for optometry to make that "leap." BUT I am telling you if there is not an optometric surgery residency established in the next 10-20 yrs you WILL see a few states "peppered" across the map with varying levels of optometric surgery (if the bill in california passes it will open the door to the future of that in that state---and there shall be more states to follow.) If ophthalmology and optometry had any foresight (which they don't) they would hold a national conference with all of the state optometry and ophthalmology associations present and do these things:

1) Establish an agreed upon scope of practice for primary care optometrists without ridiculous limitations based on historical animosity from medicine.
2) AAO Officially recognizes Optometrists as the "Primary Eye Care Doctor" as well as any ophthalmologists who choose to do "Medical Ophthalmology and not operate"
3) Establish an agreed upon optometric surgery residency (3-4 yrs long) after OD school (with modifications for selected canidates) GOING BACK TO MEDICAL SCHOOL AND ADDING ANOTHER $200k OF DEBT IS NOT AN OPTION FOR PETE SAKE!--absurd and dumb.
4) Work together and have OD's on all insurance panels and with limited hospital privileges (ie admitting a patient that has an emergency). Full privileges for optometric surgeons.
5) AAO stops its insulting smear campaigns on optometry and changes its literature which (I have read) basically degrades the OD profession.
6) Optometry recognizes Ophthalmologists and Optometric Surgeons as the official "Eye Care Specialists).

Any comments are appreciated......Thanks

You are sadly mistaken about my motives or my background. I am a 2000 graduate, residency trained and am a partner in a private practice that I can say with certainty is as progressive as any optometric practice in the nation.
This isn't about being "traditional" or "static."

You guys who are all arguing for optometric surgery are somewhat desirous of performing these procedures because they are slightly more sexy than treating pink eye or convergence insufficiency and you feel that it will garner you more "respect." I am here to tell you as a practicing optometrist that it WILL NOT. You will be seen as second rate, back door surgeons. Now....I can hear you all screaming that OMFS training dentists aren't perceived as second rate, but for the 10th time, it's because by and large, dentistry is/was already a surgical profession and those doctors are just expanding on an already present knowledge base and skill set. You guys are talking about implementing a whole new skill set for optometry, which in theory may seem like a "progressive" idea but in reality will ultimately do little to advance the cause of the profession, or improve public health in any way.

All it will result in is a massive expenditure of political and financial capital to set up a teeny tiny program for which a small group of students who for all intents and purposes are regretful that they didn't pursue "the other fork in the road." It will not benefit optometry as a profession because it really won't advance it in any meaningful way. It will not benefit patients in any way. And I firmly believe that it is not even going to benefit those few ODs who undergo this proposed training in any way other than to slightly stroke their own ego.

Ultimately, the way that you young people (and I use that term loosely because I consider myself a young person as well) should try to advance the profession is to NOT try to be "more like them." That is almost surely not going to work, because you will never truly be "like them." Optometry should be accentuating it's strengths, not trying to evolve into something that it's not, and that some other group is always going to be better at. That philosophy has nothing to do with being "static." It has to do with finding the right niche for optometry within the health care delivery team, and right now, YAGs and PIs just ain't it and really it never will be.

 

[eyestrain]

Thank you, KHE. Another great reply filled with logic and reason. Unfortunately you'll probably soon be labeled an "old dog" who is afraid of "progression" by one of the optometry students.

 

[vsarge0708]

You guys who are all arguing for optometric surgery are somewhat desirous of performing these procedures because they are slightly more sexy than treating pink eye or convergence insufficiency and you feel that it will garner you more "respect." I am here to tell you as a practicing optometrist that it WILL NOT. You will be seen as second rate, back door surgeons. Now....I can hear you all screaming that OMFS training dentists aren't perceived as second rate, but for the 10th time, it's because by and large, dentistry is/was already a surgical profession and those doctors are just expanding on an already present knowledge base and skill set. You guys are talking about implementing a whole new skill set for optometry, which in theory may seem like a "progressive" idea but in reality will ultimately do little to advance the cause of the profession, or improve public health in any way.
quote]


This isn't the case at all. I can't speak for the others, but I look forward to dealing with pink eye, binocular disorders and other "ugly" areas of optometric care--those are paramount reasons I chose optometry in the first place. It's absolutely not about image--I'm pretty sure evaporating cornea stroma isn't that sexy either. Yes I've heard it 100000 times now from your posts--supply and demand, politics, money, no forum for optometric surgeons, etc. The disconnect between the optometry students and the ODs seems to be the "definition of surgery". Do me this favor [all of you "old dogs" that feel that the dirty no good rotten optometry students are delirious and belligerent and rude to their elders], flash forward 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, 100 years--where do you see optometry going? How will technology be different [will refractive surgery even exist--will we have a one-time use gas perm lens with a magical drop that cures refractive error]? Flash back 10 years, 20 years, 30+ years--Ken I'm sure your current modality of practice would not be the same had you been an optometrist some 30 years ago--would you be alright with that? Maybe surgery isn't the answer, but progress and evolving with technology is. Like the saying goes, "you can't make an omlete without breaking a few eggs."

 

[Free Radicle]

OMFS guys work there butts off, dental school and Medical school and surgical internship and OMFS residency. Not one single thread I have read by an optometrist has ever proposed working hard. I all I hear is just let us do surgery because... Don't compare the OMFS to your situation because it is light years away.

 

[coffeebythelake]

I don't really see optometrists practicing surgery, unless under the supervision of an ophthalmologist.

 

[vsarge0708]

OMFS guys work there butts off, dental school and Medical school and surgical internship and OMFS residency. Not one single thread I have read by an optometrist has ever proposed working hard. I all I hear is just let us do surgery because... Don't compare the OMFS to your situation because it is light years away.

So am I supposed to write you a song and dance about how hard I'm willing to work? I didn't realize you were the director of admissions to the new intervention optometry residency; moot point.

 

[gochi]

Realistically, without optometry, opthalmology would not exist.

Screw the idea of an OD going through med school and residency thereafter just so that he/she can do surgery. Instead, implement an extra year or so, strictly dedicated to surgery which would allow the OD to incorporate some surgery into his/her practice, like Oculamotor has said. Im assuming this would be probable in one of the new schools opening up. For some reason, I get the feeling that ophthalmologists are over trained; I saw a commercial regarding lasik surgeons who have done over 500 operations!

Though I am perusing Optometry since it does not have any surgery associated with it, I think that if the salary of a surgical optometrist, not ophthalmologist, can be significantly increased relative to that of an Optometrist, then it may just be worth it and as far as the presence of the apparent respect goes, I wouldn't care if someone called me doc or an a****le.

Hey oculomotor,

I don't understand exactly why you are posting this stuff here. You already know that your right. Are you planning on doing something about it ?

 

[Oculomotor]

eikenhein,


Your comment is misguided as it shows a lack of knowledge on your part....all due respect. Optometrists are Doctors of Optometry ( primary eye doctors)--->autonomous field for over 100 yrs and are not supervised by anybody lol We do everything (prescribe medications, diagnose and treat ocular disease and disorders, and do "minor" surgical procedures, already)short of invasive ocular surgery. Actually OD's can do surgery in Oklahoma already ( PRK, glaucoma surgeries, etc.) Again you seem like another medical student that has no idea what Optometrists can do. But we must get back on topic about the optometric surgery residency.

 

[Caffeinated]

Maybe it's the medical hierarchy that needs to change--I honestly feel that the current system is somewhat obsolete and outdated. I've witnessed yags, trabs, lasik and other superficial surgeries and I must say they didn't seem any more difficult than putting a tonomoter probe on an eyeball.

The current system should not be changed just because some people think it looks easy. While some of these ophthalmologic procedures might be less technically challenging than others, there is more to surgery than knowing which buttons to press.

Realistically speaking, how much of your knowledge from your ob/gyn/all other rotations do you use in your day to day ophthalmology residency? I would bet that it is slim, and I would also bet that the knowledge base you do use--we probably receive similar training in anyway.

I have seen this technique before in this debate. It's an attempt to try to bring ODs closer to being equivalent to ophthalmologists by suggesting that medical education is inconsequential to the practice of ophthalmology. I guess it's easy to think this way if you haven't spent time working on a medicine ward, if you have never been part of general surgery team in which your day begins at 4AM and ends at 8PM (on a good day), never taken care of pregnant women, never delivered a baby, never resuscitated a newborn, never rounded on a 2-day old, never been responsible for closing the abdominal fascia, never pre-oxygenated a patient prior to intubation, never felt the tension that comes with placing an endotracheal tube, never experienced the collective panic in an OR when the patient loses an airway and you hear the tone of the pulse ox flatten, never had to look a patient in the eye and tell them they have cancer, never had to tell a pregnant woman that her ultrasound had no cardiac activity and that her HCG had an inappropriate rise, never called a code, never been woken from sleep to be told that one of your patients had a run of v-tach, never pronounced a patient deceased, never felt the stiffness through your entire body after a prolonged neurosurgical case where you stood for 6 straight hours wearing 20 extra pounds of lead, never watched a young man in his 20s cry like a baby when he realizes that he is about to lose his battle with cancer and he is too young to die, or never went to the operating room in the middle of the night to drain an orbital abscess in a patient with impending sepsis. If you have never had the profound honor of being part of patients' lives in this way, and never felt the emotional and physical fatigue of being a young physician, then it's easy to suggest that these experiences don't matter. But those of us who have been through experiences like these know that they shape who you are as a physician. Being an ophthalmologist means knowing a lot more than what you think it means.

[Now I know that's only speculation and we will never have an unbiased opinion to say otherwise--John Doe, OD, MD would be biased towards med school so I don't want to hear his/her arguement either.]

I guess you're right. 4 yrs of optometry school, 3 yrs as a practicing optometrist, 4 yrs of medical school, and nearly a year of internship are inconsequential. I am sure most people would rather rely upon one-sided speculation than listen to those of us with practical experience from both perspectives.

Caffeinated, OD, MD

 

[Jay12]

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Realistically, without optometry, opthalmology would not exist.

Screw the idea of an OD going through med school and residency thereafter just so that he/she can do surgery. Instead, implement an extra year or so, strictly dedicated to surgery which would allow the OD to incorporate some surgery into his/her practice, like Oculamotor has said. Im assuming this would be probable in one of the new schools opening up. For some reason, I get the feeling that ophthalmologists are over trained; I saw a commercial regarding lasik surgeons who have done over 500 operations!

Though I am perusing Optometry since it does not have any surgery associated with it, I think that if the salary of a surgical optometrist, not ophthalmologist, can be significantly increased relative to that of an Optometrist, then it may just be worth it and as far as the presence of the apparent respect goes, I wouldn't care if someone called me doc or an a****le.

Umm, having a doctor that has done a large number of a given procedure is a good thing. Practice makes perfect and all. That's not over training, that's getting very good at what you're trained to do.

As for ophtho not existing w/o ODs, I call BS. Sure, the MDs would do more clinic and less surgery, but they could get along by themselves if they needed to.

eikenhein,


Your comment is misguided as it shows a lack of knowledge on your part....all due respect. Optometrists are Doctors of Optometry ( primary eye doctors)--->autonomous field for over 100 yrs and are not supervised by anybody lol We do everything (prescribe medications, diagnose and treat ocular disease and disorders, and do "minor" surgical procedures, already)short of invasive ocular surgery. Actually OD's can do surgery in Oklahoma already ( PRK, glaucoma surgeries, etc.) Again you seem like another medical student that has no idea what Optometrists can do. But we must get back on topic about the optometric surgery residency.

Incorrect. I'm fairly certain that in some states, ODs must be supervised by MDs before they are allowed to treat certain conditions (California and glaucoma comes to mind).

 

[362.04]

I'm a bit chagrined about the tone and direction that I see some optometric students are taking in viewing the future progress of optometry. As one of the few optometrist serving full scope as an attending at a hospital for the past several years and dealing with more than 500 glaucoma patients and more than a thousand diabetics, I am probably more familiar about the practical aspects of medicine than many optometrists. I have also shook many a legislator's hands throughout twenty years of my professional life.

1. Optometry is a legislated profession as opposed to medicine. It's scope of practice is set by statute and is somewhat influenced by education or training. It would be foolish to expend precious optometry funding for such a wildly impractical legislative initiative. It fails to address any "access-to-care" issue or affordability of health care". Thus,its political attraction is nil.

2. There are many more areas of optometry that need our attention. For instance, parity in access in HMO staff or IPA models, Medicare and ERISA plans is much more important and much more relevant to the general portion of optometry than any expansion of surgical privileges.

3. I think optometric education has steadily expanded over last few years. I have had students in rotation and in private conversations who are amongst the top 5 in their class. They know more than I did when I graduated but that doesn't mean they can step into a USMLE 1,II, III examination or compete for a opthalmologic residency.

To the physician and medical students, your image of optometry, if only from this thread or forum may be jaundiced. The majority of practicing optometrists are much more interested in getting paid for what they do, want to participate in screening for chronic medical conditions and their influence on the eye (like DM, etc) and be considered for equal parity in providing their level of eyecare (as opposed to "you - have to be an MD" to join)

 

[hello07]

To Caffeinated,
I applaud your efforts! Amazing! Having earned a Doctor of Optometry degree and a Doctor of Medicine degree. Wow! talk about ambition, motivation and drive.
Do you feel more of a doctor now with a MD ? than you did having an OD before? Or didn't make any differnece to you.

 

[gochi]

The current system should not be changed just because some people think it looks easy. While some of these ophthalmologic procedures might be less technically challenging than others, there is more to surgery than knowing which buttons to press.



I have seen this technique before in this debate. It's an attempt to try to bring ODs closer to being equivalent to ophthalmologists by suggesting that medical education is inconsequential to the practice of ophthalmology. I guess it's easy to think this way if you haven't spent time working on a medicine ward, if you have never been part of general surgery team in which your day begins at 4AM and ends at 8PM (on a good day), never taken care of pregnant women, never delivered a baby, never resuscitated a newborn, never rounded on a 2-day old, never been responsible for closing the abdominal fascia, never pre-oxygenated a patient prior to intubation, never felt the tension that comes with placing an endotracheal tube, never experienced the collective panic in an OR when the patient loses an airway and you hear the tone of the pulse ox flatten, never had to look a patient in the eye and tell them they have cancer, never had to tell a pregnant woman that her ultrasound had no cardiac activity and that her HCG had an inappropriate rise, never called a code, never been woken from sleep to be told that one of your patients had a run of v-tach, never pronounced a patient deceased, never felt the stiffness through your entire body after a prolonged neurosurgical case where you stood for 6 straight hours wearing 20 extra pounds of lead, never watched a young man in his 20s cry like a baby when he realizes that he is about to lose his battle with cancer and he is too young to die, or never went to the operating room in the middle of the night to drain an orbital abscess in a patient with impending sepsis. If you have never had the profound honor of being part of patients' lives in this way, and never felt the emotional and physical fatigue of being a young physician, then it's easy to suggest that these experiences don't matter. But those of us who have been through experiences like these know that they shape who you are as a physician. Being an ophthalmologist means knowing a lot more than what you think it means.



I guess you're right. 4 yrs of optometry school, 3 yrs as a practicing optometrist, 4 yrs of medical school, and nearly a year of internship are inconsequential. I am sure most people would rather rely upon one-sided speculation than listen to those of us with practical experience from both perspectives.

Caffeinated, OD, MD

Dang, you must have a lot of debt

Like I said, Opthamologists are over-trained. When you are practising, when will you ever be required to deliver a baby ? Never. All those hours spent doing those tedious tasks, is simply a waste really. Just because you have gone throw this does not give you the right to prevent OD's who have not gone through med school, to incorporate surgery into there practice. Now, if I was a physican, those tasks would be helpfull to go through, but for an Opthamologist, it makes absolutley no sense. And as an opthamologist, you are primarily a surgical OD, not a physician, which is not what is implied.
Opthamolgy, I think, is really an attempt to put icing on the original cake.

 

[hello07]

gochi,
that is disrespectful to talk to caffeinated like that. "an ophthalmologist is a surgical OD, not a physician." how can you talk to someone with such extensive training and education behind them like that?

Who are you?

 

[eyestrain]

gochi,
that is disrespectful to talk to caffeinated like that. "an ophthalmologist is a surgical OD, not a physician." how can you talk to someone with such extensive training and education behind them like that?

Who are you?

Not only was it disrespectful and nonsensical, but gochi apparently still hasn't learned how to spell ophthalmologist. There are TWO "h"s in there, gochi.

 

[gochi]

gochi,
that is disrespectful to talk to caffeinated like that. "an ophthalmologist is a surgical OD, not a physician." how can you talk to someone with such extensive training and education behind them like that?

Who are you?

Hmm...why is that disrespectful ? It's true. What I meant to say was that an ophthalmologist is primarily a surgical OD, and secondarily a physician, who will most likely never use what he/she has learned to earn his/her MD. At least thats the impression I get, when you consider the amount of schooling one has to go through to become an Ophthalmologist, excluding the first three years of medical school. And to expect an OD to go through all that BS is absolutely absurd.

Again, the amount of education one has over another individual does not dictate the degree, if any, of respect that individual should expect. Unfortunately, the world runs in the opposite way. An example of this pertaining to Optometry is the discrimination against OD's from insurance panels. The idea of implementing surgery into the already sophisticated curriculum of optometry schools would surely eliminate this discrimination as well as fix up other problems. Now you may think my reason is illogical, but who are you sir ? Actually, you don't have to answer that, since its irrelevant. It may seem that I'm "disrespectful" but I assure you, I am not. I'm simply stating what I see to be the ultimate truth.

 

[KHE]

Hmm...why is that disrespectful ? It's true. What I meant to say was that an ophthalmologist is primarily a surgical OD, and secondarily a physician, who will most likely never use what he/she has learned to earn his/her MD. At least thats the impression I get, when you consider the amount of schooling one has to go through to become an Ophthalmologist, excluding the first three years of medical school. And to expect an OD to go through all that BS is absolutely absurd.

Again, the amount of education one has over another individual does not dictate the degree, if any, of respect that individual should expect. Unfortunately, the world runs in the opposite way. An example of this pertaining to Optometry is the discrimination against OD's from insurance panels. The idea of implementing surgery into the already sophisticated curriculum of optometry schools would surely eliminate this discrimination as well as fix up other problems. Now you may think my reason is illogical, but who are you sir ? Actually, you don't have to answer that, since its irrelevant. It may seem that I'm "disrespectful" but I assure you, I am not. I'm simply stating what I see to be the ultimate truth.

If you honestly believe anything that you wrote in that posting, then the only two possible explanations would be that you are clueless to the point of being delusional or you posted that simply because you like conflict and are hoping to stir up the ophthalmology pot to incite yet another flame war.

Many managed care companies don't allow optometrists to prescribe patanol. You think they are going to credential you to perform surgery?

Ophthalmologists are surgical optometrists? My God....how many ophthalmologists have you actually worked with and in what context? It has to be zero for you to have posted that or at the very least, you never actually worked with them....you simply worked in the same building.

 

[gochi]

If you honestly believe anything that you wrote in that posting, then the only two possible explanations would be that you are clueless to the point of being delusional or you posted that simply because you like conflict and are hoping to stir up the ophthalmology pot to incite yet another flame war.

Many managed care companies don't allow optometrists to prescribe patanol. You think they are going to credential you to perform surgery?

Ophthalmologists are surgical optometrists? My God....how many ophthalmologists have you actually worked with and in what context? It has to be zero for you to have posted that or at the very least, you never actually worked with them....you simply worked in the same building.

KHE, with all due respect, who are you or anyone for that matter to point out that I'm delusional ? Not even the most educated, most wise , most etc. person can say that and have me agree with them. I'm simply stating my presumptions, and if you think I'm wrong, please do prove me wrong. And to really start a flame war on this board, I would have to be an Ophthalmologist, but thats never going to happen.

Well, if you atleast as an OD know the name patonal and it relates to the functioning of the eye, then I think they should. I never stated that OD's should be allowed to perform surgery without any training.

Why are you asking a question of which you already know the answer to ? My perception is very simple and quite analogous to the public eye- ophthalmologist are effectively surgical OD's or optometrists who can perform surgery. Sure they may have gone through med school, most of which they will forget during residency, but that should not give them the right to discriminate against OD's, such as the case with patonal. Allowing OD's to incorporate surgery into there practice will eliminate most of this BS.

 

[qwopty99]

KHE, with all due respect, who are you or anyone for that matter to point out that I'm delusional ? Not even the most educated, most wise , most etc. person can say that and have me agree with them. I'm simply stating my presumptions, and if you think I'm wrong, please do prove me wrong. And to really start a flame war on this board, I would have to be an Ophthalmologist, but thats never going to happen.

Isn't it your position that an Ophthalmologist is just a "surgical OD?". You also state you'll never become one. If so, why are you as an optometrist, even pushing for surgery? By your own argument, the issue is moot.

 

[Oculomotor]

Guys we are optometrists and optometry students on an OPTOMETRY forum so let's keep the emotions out of this......

That said, I for one feel that both terms optometrist and ophthalmologist are equally respectable just representing different fields of eye care. I will agree with gochi that a lot of what MD's learn in medical school has absolutely no relevance in medical or surgical eye care. I have taken classes with medical students, I study WITH them, and as Indiana OD has so eloquently stated----"How do you explain Ophthalmologists from other countries that have a 4 yr Opthalmology school and can do the SAME things as US-trained OMD's." There is one in my class (a foreign trained opthalmologist--who practiced ophthalmology for 7 yrs) and moved to the US and found that it would be too time consuming to repeat a great deal of her medical-opthalmological training here and decided to do a 2 yr accelerated OD program because she already has an MD. Even she thinks that the training in the US is protracted and too long. They could have a 6 year program (total) in ophthalmology with the last 3 yrs being clinical and train excellent ophthalmologists. Tradition and "this is the way it has always been done", money, etc....would not allow that to happen in the US. Again relating this back to an optometric surgery residency------------> you can train OD's in a 3-4 year residency to do ophthalmic surgery! Jesus, I Know that KHE and Hello 07, and Caffenated, are "old school" about this and I can respect that but students such as myself are PROGRESSIVE and we believe in proactivity and forward thinking. Even OD school could be trimmed of some academic "fat" and then add some more invasive procedures training, throw in rotations through internal medicine, ophthalmology, etc....(I am doing this on my own with permission in a special program) and you have the template to launch the future from.

 

[eyestrain]

Why are you asking a question of which you already know the answer to ? My perception is very simple and quite analogous to the public eye- ophthalmologist are effectively surgical OD's or optometrists who can perform surgery. Sure they may have gone through med school, most of which they will forget during residency, but that should not give them the right to discriminate against OD's, such as the case with patonal. Allowing OD's to incorporate surgery into there practice will eliminate most of this BS.

Who gives a rat's *** about what the public thinks? Please tell me you're not using THAT as a reason to get surgical rights.

And as far as forgetting thing goes, that's a dumb reason too. Guess what, I've been out of school one year and have forgotten a bunch of what I learned in optometry school. Does that mean opticians should be able to take over my job?

I'm surprised no ophthalmologists have jumped down your throat yet. They certainly have every right to.