Covid Relief Spending

[BobLoblaw78]

And when you group them all together, the fakers and non fakers who are just trying to make ends meet and survive, where does that leave the genuine “unfortunate”?

Take care of the unfortunate but not the fakers. So many of these recommendations are idealistic but impossible. If a realist points that out, they are labelled uncaring. I think a neighbor is better about helping the faker/unfortunate discriminately much more efficiently than the government.

It is not sincere to say I care more bc I want to help people but then not have a sustainable solution while criticizing other's solutions.

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[Southpaw]

Prioritizing "heart" over the laws the economics doesn't mean you will actually be helping; in the end that system hurts more people.

it certainly is part heart, but more the type of country I want to live in and the priorities of my country. I do believe a full time job should provide a living wage.

it’s interesting the vibe taking over SDN amongst many physicians. We look at Canada, NZ, and Aus with envy as physicians appear to earn as much or more with fewer working hours and a healthier population. Benefits are solid. The cost of healthcare doesn’t cause personal bankruptcy. America is starting to see the end game of capitalism and it turns out everyone working for AMZN, GOOG, MSFT, or AAPL doesn’t look all that swell anymore.

 

[chocomorsel]

Take care of the unfortunate but not the fakers. So many of these recommendations are idealistic but impossible. If a realist points that out, they are labelled uncaring. I think a neighbor is better about helping the faker/unfortunate discriminately much more efficiently than the government.

It is not sincere to say I care more bc I want to help people but then not have a sustainable solution while criticizing other's solutions.

A neighbor helping out the unfortunate? Are you kidding me? In the US? Where it’s all about me me me me. Hence the discussion we are having? “I” don’t want to help the fakers by paying more taxes even though there are real “unfortunate” people intertwined with all these “fakers”. Followed by “the neighbors will help”? Which one are you exactly?
Give me a f break. Speaking out both sides of your damn mouth there aren’t you?

 

[BobLoblaw78]

A neighbor helping out the unfortunate? Are you kidding me? In the US? Where it’s all about me me me me. Hence the discussion we are having? “I” don’t want to help the fakers even though there are real “unfortunate” people intertwined with all these “fakers” but then you say the neighbors will.
Give me a f break. Speaking out both sides of your damn mouth there aren’t you?

I am not kidding. I help out many people personally and continuously who are down on their luck, less fortunate or struggling. The fact that you don't believe people help others tells me more about you then it does about me! I guess you are mostly virtue signaling if you find doing charity that hard to believe. I think it is my/our duty to take care of my community and neighbors. I find it hard to believe you find this hard to believe. I believe I (as a neighbor) do a better job than the government. When you help out others face to face, it quickly becomes apparent who is in need and who is leeching.

From your response, I am beginning to think that you don't have real experience helping people. You just say "I care and want to help so the government should take care of it." You do realize that really isn't you helping people, right?

 

[vector2]

Just thinking out loud... would things be better 200 years ago? What does a living wage provide? Do we all deserve to have cell phones? Cars? Cable and TV? Cigarettes? Alcohol?

I think you may conflate equal opportunity to equal possessions, no? Do you think life will ever be totally fair and equal outcome? Why do people deserve more possessions beyond food and shelter, especially if they don't prioritize it? Do possessions=happiness? Says who?

I dislike programs that invite manipulations and freeloaders. Why? Because they disproportionately consume/contribute which leaves less for the ones truly in need. It disengages normal avenues of humane charity b/c of abuse of the charity.

I know I care about people, but I just don't arrive at the same conclusions as you (and I assume you care almost as much as I do

It shows how out of touch you are when you're attempting to make a comparison between 2021 and 200 years ago, as if the laughable current minimum wage is somehow noble because things could be like they were during indentured servitude or in robber baron factories before labor laws.

And then you follow with a strawman that paying a living wage is akin to providing people with cigarettes and alcohol.

I'll explain it to you simply. You either mandate that all employers pay their fulltime workers a wage that covers food, clothing, shelter, childcare, healthcare, and retirement, or you continue to let them pay a pittance and make the taxpayer foot the bill to cover the rest. Why do you want to put this burden on the taxpayer?

 

[vector2]

Also lol at the number of people who pretend they know something about macro but who also think that literally everyone could get a well-paying job if they just tried harder and weren't so lazy. That's not how an economy works, geniuses.

 

[BobLoblaw78]

It shows how out of touch you are when you're attempting to make a comparison between 2021 and 200 years ago, as if the laughable current minimum wage is somehow noble because things could be like they were during indentured servitude or in robber baron factories before labor laws.

And then you follow with a strawman that paying a living wage is akin to providing people with cigarettes and alcohol.

I'll explain it to you simply. You either mandate that all employers pay their fulltime workers a wage that covers food, clothing, shelter, childcare, healthcare, and retirement, or you continue to let them pay a pittance and make the taxpayer foot the bill to cover the rest. Why do you want to put this burden on the taxpayer?

Actually it was me thinking of the time when we didn't have worry of fb notifications, or lack thereof, didn't cause depression. The goal of the day was to put food on the table and spend time with your family. Not what your stock portfolio did for the day. I think all this excess has warped our sense of what is fulfilling in life and what we are "entitled" to. I don't think I did a strawman... I said you may think something and asked if that was so. With a question mark. That was me trying to clarify and have conversation with you. I asked you several questions and you didn't answer one. And I was trying to genuinely have a discussion with you (I should know better by now).

Oh, you don't answer my question, but do pose one yourself? To answer your question: I think the cost comes out the same. The employer will pass the cost on to the consumer. And it has unintended consequences of putting small businesses out of business with only monopolies and the government able to survive. The burden is there either way, but one, imo, has worse consequences. My goal after that is to remove all the fakers that the government helps.

I am sure everyone has seen patients seeking disability. Do you honestly believe there is no fakers in that group that are trying to get something for nothing? Do you sign off on all of them? People will take advantage if you allow them. It is human nature. That drains resources that should go to those that do need it.

Also lol at the number of people who pretend they know something about macro but who also think that literally everyone could get a well-paying job if they just tried harder and weren't so lazy. That's not how an economy works, geniuses.

So if someone works hard and makes two widgets, do they get more than the lazy one that makes no widgets? I think that is how economy works, no?

I have noticed hard workers get paid more. Have you truly not noticed this over your lifetime? Should all widget makers get $15/hr?

Our economy has lifted more people out of poverty than any in the history of the world..... so let's do away with it.

 

[chocomorsel]

I am not kidding. I help out many people personally and continuously who are down on their luck, less fortunate or struggling. The fact that you don't believe people help others tells me more about you then it does about me! I guess you are mostly virtue signaling if you find doing charity that hard to believe. I think it is my/our duty to take care of my community and neighbors. I find it hard to believe you find this hard to believe. I believe I (as a neighbor) do a better job than the government. When you help out others face to face, it quickly becomes apparent who is in need and who is leeching.

From your response, I am beginning to think that you don't have real experience helping people. You just say "I care and want to help so the government should take care of it." You do realize that really isn't you helping people, right?

I love how people like to paint each other individually as if they know anything about each other based on what they read on the internet. I don't have to prove myself to you but I come from a third world country were we believe in a village mentality and help each other out all the damn time.
Don't preach to me about crap you know nothing about when it comes to me. "Begin to think" whatever the hell it is you want to think honey, and end it there when it comes to pretending to know jack **** about me.
Yeah, this country is very much about individualism withe people like you constantly spewing about not wanting to get taxed more to help out all these "fakers" and others saying that it "hurts more people in the long run".
Give me a damn break.

 

[vector2]

Actually it was me thinking of the time when we didn't have worry of fb notifications, or lack thereof, didn't cause depression. The goal of the day was to put food on the table and spend time with your family. Not what your stock portfolio did for the day. I think all this excess has warped our sense of what is fulfilling in life and what we are "entitled" to. I don't think I did a strawman... I said you may think something and asked if that was so. With a question mark. That was me trying to clarify and have conversation with you. I asked you several questions and you didn't answer one. And I was trying to genuinely have a discussion with you (I should know better by now).

Oh, you don't answer my question, but do pose one yourself? To answer your question: I think the cost comes out the same. The employer will pass the cost on to the consumer. And it has unintended consequences of putting small businesses out of business with only monopolies and the government able to survive. The burden is there either way, but one, imo, has worse consequences. My goal after that is to remove all the fakers that the government helps.

I am sure everyone has seen patients seeking disability. Do you honestly believe there is no fakers in that group that are trying to get something for nothing? Do you sign off on all of them? People will take advantage if you allow them. It is human nature. That drains resources that should go to those that do need it.



So if someone works hard and makes two widgets, do they get more than the lazy one that makes no widgets? I think that is how economy works, no?

I have noticed hard workers get paid more. Have you truly not noticed this over your lifetime? Should all widget makers get $15/hr?

Our economy has lifted more people out of poverty than any in the history of the world..... so let's do away with it.

You’re full of nothing but stereotypes and suppositions without a clue about the data on the ground, and your perseveration and blathering on about whatever you think modern life should entail is neither here nor there when it comes to the minimum wage. Most of your post is, in fact, a roundabout present-day version of the welfare queen myth because you’re operating under the deluded notion that if we paid fast food workers, nannies, janitors, and nurse’s aides more they’d just blow it on things they don’t “need.”

Folks in this thread have already pointed out that the minimum wage has not kept up with inflation.

You’ve ignored it. Similarly, I’m sure you’d also ignore the fact that In 2019, the ratio of CEO-to-typical-worker compensation was 320-to-1 under the realized measure of CEO pay; that is up from 293-to-1 in 2018 and a big increase from 21-to-1 in 1965 and 61-to-1 in 1989. CEOs are even making a lot more—about six times as much—as other very high earners (wage earners in the top 0.1%).

And you continue to ignore that the taxpayer continues to subsidize businesses who refuse to pay their workers a living wage that covers necessities. Again I ask, why do you think the taxpayer should be responsible for this?

 

[vector2]

.
So if someone works hard and makes two widgets, do they get more than the lazy one that makes no widgets? I think that is how economy works, no?

I have noticed hard workers get paid more. Have you truly not noticed this over your lifetime? Should all widget makers get $15/hr?

Our economy has lifted more people out of poverty than any in the history of the world..... so let's do away with it.

I’ll belabor the point to try to overcome your density.

Not every person in society can become a high paying professional due to many factors beyond just their intelligence and motivation. There actually is a bit of a birth lottery whether you’d like to admit it or not. Regardless, we still need people to clean the bathrooms, take out the trash, watch our kids, and ring up our groceries. These jobs are essential. These jobs, and every other full time job, should pay a wage that covers all the necessities including health care, child care, and retirement. If these jobs do not pay enough to cover these things, then the individual companies who pay these low wages should be penalized instead of passing on the social welfare burden to the taxpayer.

 

[vector2]

Also, one third of minimum wage workers who would benefit from a hike are over 40. The notion that these workers are all high school or general Y burger flippers is a myth.

Low-wage Workers Are Older Than You Think: 88 Percent of Workers Who Would Benefit From a Higher Minimum Wage Are Older Than 20, One Third Are Over 40

It is a common myth that very low-wage workers—workers who would see a raise if the minimum wage were increased—are mostly teenagers. The reality is that raising the federal minimum wage to $10.10 per hour would primarily benefit older workers. Eighty-eight percent of workers who would be...

www.epi.org

 

[BobLoblaw78]

I love how people like to paint each other individually as if they know anything about each other based on what they read on the internet. I don't have to prove myself to you but I come from a third world country were we believe in a village mentality and help each other out all the damn time.
Don't preach to me about crap you know nothing about when it comes to me. "Begin to think" whatever the hell it is you want to think honey, and end it there when it comes to pretending to know jack **** about me.
Yeah, this country is very much about individualism withe people like you constantly spewing about not wanting to get taxed more to help out all these "fakers" and others saying that it "hurts more people in the long run".
Give me a damn break.

Wow. Look at your previous post. You literally paint me as something else, preach to me, act like you know me, imply that I'm selfish and pretend like I wouldn't help my neighbor. FYI, that is hypocrisy on your part. And you handled it well with your profanity laced tirade.

You said I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth. I think it is logically consistent to state people should help their neighbors and not the government. And that this would be the best deterrent to people taking advantage of charity. Whether you agree or not, I definitely don't believe it warrants your profanity laced tirade. Is this how you handle most disagreements?

I don't think I should have to prove myself to you as well, but I help those in need more with what I have left over than what the government does with what they take. And I will continue to do so regardless of what they take. It doesn't make it right though

 

[BobLoblaw78]

I’ll belabor the point to try to overcome your density.

Not every person in society can become a high paying professional due to many factors beyond just their intelligence and motivation. There actually is a bit of a birth lottery whether you’d like to admit it or not. Regardless, we still need people to clean the bathrooms, take out the trash, watch our kids, and ring up our groceries. These jobs are essential. These jobs, and every other full time job, should pay a wage that covers all the necessities including health care, child care, and retirement. If these jobs do not pay enough to cover these things, then the individual companies who pay these low wages should be penalized instead of passing on the social welfare burden to the taxpayer.

I don't believe money brings happiness. Hollywood is full of unhappy people. They have a skillset that is not worthy of its high pay. But I don't cry and wale how unfair it is and try to redistribute their money.

Is the meaning of life to get a high paying professional job? Not in my opinion. What should determine a salary? What the market bears or what Bernie says? I am going with the market.

Birth lottery??? So we should take from those who are born intelligent and give others more of their production. Should we also take from those who are born happy and give their happiness to the depressed? Should we take from those who were born with 10 fingers and give a couple to those born with 8? Just because someone is born with more or inherits more, doesn't give you the right to take it. Life will never be fair no matter what you do.

You’re full of nothing but stereotypes and suppositions without a clue about the data on the ground, and your perseveration and blathering on about whatever you think modern life should entail is neither here nor there when it comes to the minimum wage. Most of your post is, in fact, a roundabout present-day version of the welfare queen myth because you’re operating under the deluded notion that if we paid fast food workers, nannies, janitors, and nurse’s aides more they’d just blow it on things they don’t “need.”

Folks in this thread have already pointed out that the minimum wage has not kept up with inflation.

View attachment 332666
You’ve ignored it. Similarly, I’m sure you’d also ignore the fact that In 2019, the ratio of CEO-to-typical-worker compensation was 320-to-1 under the realized measure of CEO pay; that is up from 293-to-1 in 2018 and a big increase from 21-to-1 in 1965 and 61-to-1 in 1989. CEOs are even making a lot more—about six times as much—as other very high earners (wage earners in the top 0.1%).

And you continue to ignore that the taxpayer continues to subsidize businesses who refuse to pay their workers a living wage that covers necessities. Again I ask, why do you think the taxpayer should be responsible for this?

You are the king/queen blatherererer of all time. You ignore others questions and points. You redirect to different points (most often on points the other person never made). You slap up some graph that has nothing to do with the prior discussion and act like you made a point.

Stereotypes? I am just going off of personal life experiences from helping people.

LOLOLOLOL!!!! I already answered this question! Why are you asking again?!?!? Oh, I get it. You don't even read my responses! That makes so much more sense!!!!! You don't answer questions bc you don't read them. You misquote bc you don't read them. You don't stay on topic bc you don't read them. Your graphs are not related bc you don't read them.

You're a funny guy Sully! (Name it)

 

[deleted126335]

I imagine you complain about the subsidization of the medicaid/food stamp population who makes the choice to NOT work, because it isn't worth it. And yet here you say a job SHOULD NOT support livelihood (house, food, clothes, etc.). You can't have it both ways.

I don't believe money brings happiness. Hollywood is full of unhappy people. They have a skillset that is not worthy of its high pay. But I don't cry and wale how unfair it is and try to redistribute their money.

Is the meaning of life to get a high paying professional job? Not in my opinion. What should determine a salary? What the market bears or what Bernie says? I am going with the market.

Birth lottery??? So we should take from those who are born intelligent and give others more of their production. Should we also take from those who are born happy and give their happiness to the depressed? Should we take from those who were born with 10 fingers and give a couple to those born with 8? Just because someone is born with more or inherits more, doesn't give you the right to take it. Life will never be fair no matter what you do.


You are the king/queen blatherererer of all time. You ignore others questions and points. You redirect to different points (most often on points the other person never made). You slap up some graph that has nothing to do with the prior discussion and act like you made a point.

Stereotypes? I am just going off of personal life experiences from helping people.

LOLOLOLOL!!!! I already answered this question! Why are you asking again?!?!? Oh, I get it. You don't even read my responses! That makes so much more sense!!!!! You don't answer questions bc you don't read them. You misquote bc you don't read them. You don't stay on topic bc you don't read them. Your graphs are not related bc you don't read them.

You're a funny guy Sully! (Name it)

That's why I'm going to kill you last.

 

[BobLoblaw78]

Such a great movie! I am too scared to go back and watch it. I am afraid it will be as bad as the Neverending Story was as an adult watching it.

 

[deleted126335]

The problem is that both sides have evidence and arguments for and against their positions.

Any decent, humane society has a social safety net.
But, if you don't incentivize good behavior-(E.g., education, hard work, etc.) you get less of it. That was the world old farts like me grew up with. (mostly anyway, especially if you were white and able bodied). Given the current state of inequality, lack of mobility, and decreasing returns for good behavior there is a case to be made for sitting on the couch and playing video games and living on the money that the government pay people not to riot. Not to mention tilting way left in the voting booth.

 

[vector2]

I don't believe money brings happiness. Hollywood is full of unhappy people. They have a skillset that is not worthy of its high pay. But I don't cry and wale how unfair it is and try to redistribute their money.

Is the meaning of life to get a high paying professional job? Not in my opinion. What should determine a salary? What the market bears or what Bernie says? I am going with the market.

Birth lottery??? So we should take from those who are born intelligent and give others more of their production. Should we also take from those who are born happy and give their happiness to the depressed? Should we take from those who were born with 10 fingers and give a couple to those born with 8? Just because someone is born with more or inherits more, doesn't give you the right to take it. Life will never be fair no matter what you do.


You are the king/queen blatherererer of all time. You ignore others questions and points. You redirect to different points (most often on points the other person never made). You slap up some graph that has nothing to do with the prior discussion and act like you made a point.

Stereotypes? I am just going off of personal life experiences from helping people.

LOLOLOLOL!!!! I already answered this question! Why are you asking again?!?!? Oh, I get it. You don't even read my responses! That makes so much more sense!!!!! You don't answer questions bc you don't read them. You misquote bc you don't read them. You don't stay on topic bc you don't read them. Your graphs are not related bc you don't read them.

You're a funny guy Sully! (Name it)

Another great post from you.

The TL;DR version: “How dare you assault me with graphs and data objectively showing how ridiculous the current minimum wage is. I’m not yet done sharing my facile aphorisms about money and happiness and Hollywood, and anecdotes about helping people, none of which have a goddamn thing to do with the meat of the current discussion.”

 

[vector2]

 

[chocomorsel]

From your response, I am beginning to think that you don't have real experience helping people.

So tell me in my statement where I said directly "you don't help out your neighbors". I made a general statement in regard to the individualism of this great country. You chose to internalize it and tried to prove to me I was wrong. Look at your direct statement to me as quoted above.
Good on you, for helping out your neighbor

As you continue the whole "I" don't want to help out all these "fakers" who don't want to work.

 

[chocomorsel]

I don't believe money brings happiness. Hollywood is full of unhappy people. They have a skillset that is not worthy of its high pay. But I don't cry and wale how unfair it is and try to redistribute their money.

Is the meaning of life to get a high paying professional job? Not in my opinion. What should determine a salary? What the market bears or what Bernie says? I am going with the market.

Birth lottery??? So we should take from those who are born intelligent and give others more of their production. Should we also take from those who are born happy and give their happiness to the depressed? Should we take from those who were born with 10 fingers and give a couple to those born with 8? Just because someone is born with more or inherits more, doesn't give you the right to take it. Life will never be fair no matter what you do.


You are the king/queen blatherererer of all time. You ignore others questions and points. You redirect to different points (most often on points the other person never made). You slap up some graph that has nothing to do with the prior discussion and act like you made a point.

Stereotypes? I am just going off of personal life experiences from helping people.

LOLOLOLOL!!!! I already answered this question! Why are you asking again?!?!? Oh, I get it. You don't even read my responses! That makes so much more sense!!!!! You don't answer questions bc you don't read them. You misquote bc you don't read them. You don't stay on topic bc you don't read them. Your graphs are not related bc you don't read them.

You're a funny guy Sully! (Name it)

So now you are helping all these "fakers"!! all the while speaking so highly of them? Are you really that stupid that you are getting taken advantage of by all these poor, unintelligent people who clearly didn't win the intelligence lottery and are faking their way through life? Are these slow fakers outsmarting your classist ass?
WTF, you are a class act.

 

[BobLoblaw78]

So tell me in my statement where I said directly "you don't help out your neighbors". I made a general statement in regard to the individualism of this great country. You chose to internalize it and tried to prove to me I was wrong. Look at your direct statement to me as quoted above.
Good on you, for helping out your neighbor

As you continue the whole "I" don't want to help out all these "fakers" who don't want to work.

Your allusion that I didn't want to help fakers/neighbor/unfortunate statement made me think you were indirectly stating that I would not. If not so, my mistake.

My statement was 100% true which was "from your response, I am beginning to think that you don't have real experience helping people." Your response did make me think that you may not have experience helping people.

Correct, I don't want the government or anyone to have to support fakers that want to leech off the system. Do you disagree? I made it clear that I was more than willing to support those that were struggling, unfortunate or needy. I stand by my statements and fail to see your points.

I think we may be misunderstanding each other. I am sure we are both coming from a place of wanting to help others but disagree with the how (hopefully not the who).

 

[BobLoblaw78]

So now you are helping all these "fakers"!! all the while speaking so highly of them? Are you really that stupid that you are getting taken advantage of by all these poor, unintelligent people who clearly didn't win the intelligence lottery and are faking their way through life? Are these slow fakers outsmarting your classist ass?
WTF, you are a class act.

I think you are misunderstanding. Look back. I don't have a problem helping people that truly need it. I do have a problem helping those that don't need it but fake it. If someone is truly faking being needy, do you suggest we should help them?

You call me a "class act" in sarcasm but then act without class by calling names and using profanity. Are you intentionally being a hypocrite or just inadvertently???

 

[chocomorsel]

My statement was 100% true which was "from your response, I am beginning to think that you don't have real experience helping people." Your response did make me think that you may not have experience helping people.

Correct, I don't want the government or anyone to have to support fakers that want to leech off the system. Do you disagree? I made it clear that I was more than willing to support those that were struggling, unfortunate or needy. I stand by my statements and fail to see your points.

I think we may be misunderstanding each other. I am sure we are both coming from a place of wanting to help others but disagree with the how (hopefully not the who).

Well your flawed assumptions of me aside, how do you feel about cutting out government handout on all these "fakers" without cutting government handouts to the ones who are truly working two and more jobs, and are still struggling because they unfortunately didn't win the intelligence, or wealth, or race lottery?
How do you weed out the good ones without in essence "throwing the baby out with the bathwater?"
Like @dr doze said above we should live in a world with a safety net. Are Australia and Canada and NZ, and Europe doing so poorly by having socialized care? Really? What are we so afraid of? Why is someone like you so afraid of the government taxing more and helping out the poor that you readily admit you help?
I too have a problem helping out lazy people who choose to not get a job year after year, but I don't want to punish the mostly truly needy in the process.
As I have said before on here, I believe that there should be a flat tax, and that welfare should come with more stipulations and incentives/assistance to get a job. Should not be a never ending check. But there are people, no matter how much/hard they work, they just can never advance upward for a multitude of reasons, some of those being spending money on the wrong things (fancy phones and cars, which to me speaks to a lack of financial education) and they shouldn't be left behind without healthcare and basic necessities they can't afford. Not every poor person has fancy phones and cars and 250 channels though. You gotta think about that.

 

[BobLoblaw78]

Another great post from you.

The TL;DR version: “How dare you assault me with graphs and data objectively showing how ridiculous the current minimum wage is. I’m not yet done sharing my facile aphorisms about money and happiness and Hollywood, and anecdotes about helping people, none of which have a goddamn thing to do with the meat of the current discussion.”

Good talking to you! Your impression of me was spot on.

I think you have convinced about as many people with your style as the guy with the bullhorn standing on the corner screaming "the end is nigh." TTYL

 

[vector2]

Seattle has become an interesting case study due to what they did with their minimum wage in the mid 2010s. This was a graph made around the time by conservatives who were creaming themselves at the prospect that they were right about the folly of raising the minimum wage:

You see that tiny plateau at the end that they're highlighting, right? But what actually happened when you follow along in time and zoom out?

There's a reason that folks like @BobLoblaw78 only speak in unsupported Ayn Randian-esque generalities about "taking" from the "productive" to support the "fakers." It's because there's not any empiric data which actually supports their gilded age viewpoints.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I too have a problem helping out lazy people who choose to not get a job year after year, but I don't want to punish the mostly truly needy in the process.

And therein lies the rub. I think a lot (most?) people feel this way.

 

[deleted126335]

View attachment 332677

all true. But, simply raising minimum wage has unintended and undesirable consequences. How do you incentivize good behavior and hard work and penalize bad behavior, e.g. laziness, dropping out of school, substance abuse, out of wedlock births, etc.
while maintaining your humanity in the world we actually live in today? It is a serious question.

 

[MirrorTodd]

all true. But, simply raising minimum wage has unintended and undesirable consequences. How do you incentivize good behavior and hard work and penalize bad behavior, e.g. laziness, dropping out of school, substance abuse, out of wedlock births, etc.
while maintaining your humanity in the world we actually live in today? It is a serious question.

What specifically are those unintended and undesireable consequences though? Like is it REALLY gonna crash the economy? Worse than the government literally printing digital 1 and 0's in the trillions to give out to MOSTLY rich people/organizations?

 

[vector2]

all true. But, simply raising minimum wage has unintended and undesirable consequences. How do you incentivize good behavior and hard work and penalize bad behavior, e.g. laziness, dropping out of school, substance abuse, out of wedlock births, etc.
while maintaining your humanity in the world we actually live in today? It is a serious question.

Which consequences?

Raising the minimum wage to $15 would increase wages for 17 million Americans. 900,000 Americans would be lifted above the poverty line. The consequence is that the CBO estimates that possibly up to 1.4 million jobs may be lost. Which is bad, but which would be a thousand percent less bad if we actually had universal healthcare and child care which are not tied to employment, robust unemployment insurance, and money for subsidized education and job re-training.

Regardless, two facts remain. 1. We have a consumer economy. 2. The lower earning classes put a large amount of their earnings back into the economy, which is ultimately stimulative and leads to downstream job additions as demand surges.

 

[<(^_^)>]

Which consequences?

Raising the minimum wage to $15 would increase wages for 17 million Americans. 900,000 Americans would be lifted above the poverty line. The consequence is that the CBO estimates that possibly up to 1.4 million jobs may be lost. Which is bad, but which would be a thousand percent less bad if we actually had universal healthcare and child care which are not tied to employment, robust unemployment insurance, and money for subsidized education and job re-training.

Regardless, two facts remain. 1. We have a consumer economy. 2. The lower earning classes put a large amount of their earnings back into the economy, which is ultimately stimulative and leads to downstream job additions as demand surges.

Regardless of the merits of raising the minimum wage (which has clearly has plenty of proponents/opponents) I never understood the drive to do so federally. Adjusting for cost of living 15 an hour in Waco Texas becomes 26 an hour in Seattle. So either 15 an hour is far too low in Seattle or it’s far too high in Waco Texas.

 

[deleted126335]

What specifically are those unintended and undesireable consequences though? Like is it REALLY gonna crash the economy? Worse than the government literally printing digital 1 and 0's in the trillions to give out to MOSTLY rich people/organizations?

Lots of jobs eliminated, increased incentives for employers to automate going forward. Oh wait, they can hire more undocumented immigrants.

 

[vector2]

Regardless of the merits of raising the minimum wage (which has clearly has plenty of proponents/opponents) I never understood the drive to do so federally. Adjusting for cost of living 15 an hour in Waco Texas becomes 26 an hour in Seattle. So either 15 an hour is far too low in Seattle or it’s far too high in Waco Texas.

Because it ends up with terribly concentrated areas where those who need it the most perpetually aren't getting it. Just look at the poverty rates in the southeast and gulf south which are "right to work" and still use the federal minimum wage.

And $15 in Waco is the right amount. $15 in Seattle and San Fran is too low but ya gotta start somewhere

 

[pgg]

Regardless of the merits of raising the minimum wage (which has clearly has plenty of proponents/opponents) I never understood the drive to do so federally. Adjusting for cost of living 15 an hour in Waco Texas becomes 26 an hour in Seattle. So either 15 an hour is far too low in Seattle or it’s far too high in Waco Texas.

It's possible to tie a minimum wage to some kind of local cost-of-living metric. A good criticism of a flat federal mimimun wage is that for some reason we don't do that.

It's easy. The military sets its housing allowances based on the COL in the area. There's a zip code based BAH calculator here in case you're idly curious.

BAH Calculator

A single E1 would get $954/month in Waco TX, but $1905 in Seattle.


The argument that a federal minimum wage is necessary tends to hinge on the same arguments for any federal laws that supercede any state laws - namely that the states can't be trusted to do what's right for their citizens. While there's a compelling (to me) argument that this is needed to protect civil rights, I'm not sure I'm able to make the leap and agree that a mimimum wage at quantity X is in that class. Though I support a higher "living" mimimum wage, I'm OK with leaving it up to states.

If destitute people can migrate on foot from Central America to the USA in search of a better job, I don't see why people in Alabama can't migrate to Maryland for a better job too, if Maryland offers higher wages.

 

[BobLoblaw78]

Well your flawed assumptions of me aside, how do you feel about cutting out government handout on all these "fakers" without cutting government handouts to the ones who are truly working two and more jobs, and are still struggling because they unfortunately didn't win the intelligence, or wealth, or race lottery?
How do you weed out the good ones without in essence "throwing the baby out with the bathwater?"
Like @dr doze said above we should live in a world with a safety net. Are Australia and Canada and NZ, and Europe doing so poorly by having socialized care? Really? What are we so afraid of? Why is someone like you so afraid of the government taxing more and helping out the poor that you readily admit you help?
I too have a problem helping out lazy people who choose to not get a job year after year, but I don't want to punish the mostly truly needy in the process.
As I have said before on here, I believe that there should be a flat tax, and that welfare should come with more stipulations and incentives/assistance to get a job. Should not be a never ending check. But there are people, no matter how much/hard they work, they just can never advance upward for a multitude of reasons, some of those being spending money on the wrong things (fancy phones and cars, which to me speaks to a lack of financial education) and they shouldn't be left behind without healthcare and basic necessities they can't afford. Not every poor person has fancy phones and cars and 250 channels though. You gotta think about that.

Agree with flat tax, assistance to get a job, stipulations, etc.

Basic necessities to me is food and shelter. I don't agree with healthcare (b/c government inefficiency) but if people want free healthcare then it should be a priority to them. That means they shouldn't smoke, drink or be obese. You can't intentionally undermine your health and demand that someone else fix it for free. Same with money. You can't give money to people for food, they spend it on whatever that is not food, then they demand more money for food. I am more in favor of giving the farmers money, select the food for the needy that is appropriate and give that to them. If that is not good enough, then I disagree.

America already has a safety net and takes care of the needy really well, so let's not act like we have extreme poverty everywhere.

There is no perfect solution and never will be. I liken it to prisons. Should they have any if even one person is falsely jailed? You can't let all criminals go, but it is wrong to jail a single person. Where do you draw the line? I don't want to be the one that draws the line. Just like the death squads. I don't want to be on that panel either.

 

[BobLoblaw78]

Seattle has become an interesting case study due to what they did with their minimum wage in the mid 2010s. This was a graph made around the time by conservatives who were creaming themselves at the prospect that they were right about the folly of raising the minimum wage:

View attachment 332683


You see that tiny plateau at the end that they're highlighting, right? But what actually happened when you follow along in time and zoom out?

View attachment 332686
View attachment 332687

There's a reason that folks like @BobLoblaw78 only speak in unsupported Ayn Randian-esque generalities about "taking" from the "productive" to support the "fakers." It's because there's not any empiric data which actually supports their gilded age viewpoints.

I don't care how many graphs you put showing how Trump lowered unemployment. I am still not a huge fan of how poorly disciplined he was and how he couldn't take the high road and be more professional.

So, you are showing evidence that shows the states would be better served to determine minimum wage than federal government? Thanks.

If you don't believe productivity decreases when you remove reward for productivity, then you are a robot or alien. Only automation does more work without more reward.

 

[chocomorsel]

Agree with flat tax, assistance to get a job, stipulations, etc.

Basic necessities to me is food and shelter. I don't agree with healthcare (b/c government inefficiency) but if people want free healthcare then it should be a priority to them. That means they shouldn't smoke, drink or be obese. You can't intentionally undermine your health and demand that someone else fix it for free. Same with money. You can't give money to people for food, they spend it on whatever that is not food, then they demand more money for food. I am more in favor of giving the farmers money, select the food for the needy that is appropriate and give that to them. If that is not good enough, then I disagree.

America already has a safety net and takes care of the needy really well, so let's not act like we have extreme poverty everywhere.

There is no perfect solution and never will be. I liken it to prisons. Should they have any if even one person is falsely jailed? You can't let all criminals go, but it is wrong to jail a single person. Where do you draw the line? I don't want to be the one that draws the line. Just like the death squads. I don't want to be on that panel either.

It isn’t “free” healthcare. It’s paid for by the people in taxes. Are socialized countries falling apart and lack obesity and smokers and generally people who abuse their bodies? Government inefficiency? We obviously can work to change that but that’s not the problem in the US. The mentality of “I want everything and I want it NOW” in the US is the problem. Not the government being inefficient. People can wait 6 to 9 months to get your damn knees and hips replaced.
And I volunteer to be on the death panel. It’s not a death panel. It’s a realist panel. We try something and if it is not showing that it’s working you don’t keep piling and piling and piling on in old people. We aren’t meant to live forever.

 

[BobLoblaw78]

Thinking out loud again (so please make sure to scold me he who shall not be named). And it might sound like Ayn Rand but I wouldn't know. Maybe I should read some of his stuff.

If a tribe living in the rainforest eats less than the average American, has no phone, no healthcare and lives in substandard living quarters (by our elite estimation), what should we do? Do we assume they need our help? Do we educate them how much happier we Americans are and help them change their ways? Do we give them a plane if they decide that is what they need for happiness?

If people want food and shelter and good health, I think they should have an opportunity for those things. I think we should help with those things. It is when we go beyond those things that are more wants than needs that you begin to lose me. I am not sure you should have every want fulfilled. This includes TV, cable, cellphone, cigs, booze, cars, etc. These are not needs b/c we did not need those 20 years ago. I also know that not everyone is entitled to live in downtown San Fran. If you can't afford it, then relocate. It is not a civil right to live wherever you want. And the main reason people need to move is b/c taxes are too high. So don't offer solutions that raise taxes even more and then take the stance that people should be able to afford to live in the city of their choosing. I would like to live in Abu Dhabi but can't afford it.

 

[BobLoblaw78]

People can wait 6 to 9 months to get your damn knees and hips replaced.
And I volunteer to be on the death panel. It’s not a death panel. It’s a realist panel. We try something and if it is not showing that it’s working you don’t keep piling and piling and piling on in old people. We aren’t meant to live forever.

Welcome to the club. I don't think people should get what they 'feel' they need. But I will take the other approach so you see how it feels....

So you don't care about people suffering from severe pain??? These people have a disease that they were born with and no medication is helping them. They can't sleep. They can't work. They can't play with their kids. They can't help or afford to have it fixed. How can you sit there and watch them suffer? Are you really that stingy and afraid to lose a couple of pennies to not help these people? Are you an elitist that deserves it more just b/c you won the birth lottery and have more money? How can you not care? I must care more than you. I think they should be able to have it today and you should pay even more taxes. What a elitist, uncaring heartless person you must be!!!!

I would have problems being on your "realist" panel. Just b/c you change the name doesn't make it better. It is the actions that cause me issue, not the name. I can't believe you can say that and so quickly call others heartless. wow. It sounds like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

 

[We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes]

You can't intentionally undermine your health and demand that someone else fix it for free. Same with money. You can't give money to people for food, they spend it on whatever that is not food, then they demand more money for food.

This sort of common sense thinking will get you labeled as a heartless ruthless Trump voting neanderthal. It reminds me of my own neanderthal thinking that if others are paying for your children the limit should be one or two before your government checks become dependent on you receiving birth control injections.

Before the crazies go looney, I'm not advocating forced birth control on anyone. Simply a voluntary agreement you can opt in or opt out of; you want other people's money to raise your family then other people shouldn't have to throw money down the rabbit hole without limit. But again, way too common sense.

 

[vector2]

I don't care how many graphs you put showing how Trump lowered unemployment. I am still not a huge fan of how poorly disciplined he was and how he couldn't take the high road and be more professional.

So, you are showing evidence that shows the states would be better served to determine minimum wage than federal government? Thanks.

If you don't believe productivity decreases when you remove reward for productivity, then you are a robot or alien. Only automation does more work without more reward.

Just lol that you perseverate like a 14 yo who just read Atlas Shrugged when you babble on about “fakers” and the “productive” but yet your favorite ex-president is multi-bankruptcy loser who inherited $400m from his dad but yet hasn’t paid taxes in 15 years because he destroys wealth about as fast as it’s created.

But anyway, nice attempt at a goal post move to federalism. Obviously you can’t actually refute the empiric evidence, e.g. like in Seattle, that a $15 MW didn’t stifle jobs or its economy, so you gotta change the subject.

Keep trying, champ.

 

[vector2]

.

If you don't believe productivity decreases when you remove reward for productivity, then you are a robot or alien. Only automation does more work without more reward.

The linear correlation between productivity and compensation has been broken for about 40 yrs

 

[vector2]

.

If destitute people can migrate on foot from Central America to the USA in search of a better job, I don't see why people in Alabama can't migrate to Maryland for a better job too, if Maryland offers higher wages.

I mean, sure, I guess it’s theoretically possible for every dissatisfied person to pack up all their stuff, uproot their family, and leave all the people they know behind in the effort to make $5 more per hour, but personally, I think it makes more sense to federally compel either a higher nominal or COL adjusted MW. Many states have already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that workers and workers’ rights are entirely economically expendable.

 

[BobLoblaw78]

Just lol that you perseverate like a 14 yo who just read Atlas Shrugged when you babble on about “fakers” and the “productive” but yet your favorite ex-president is multi-bankruptcy loser who inherited $400m from his dad but yet hasn’t paid taxes in 15 years because he destroys wealth about as fast as it’s created.

But anyway, nice attempt at a goal post move to federalism. Obviously you can’t actually refute the empiric evidence, e.g. like in Seattle, that a $15 MW didn’t stifle jobs or its economy, so you gotta change the subject.

Keep trying, champ.

I get that you are trying to get a rise out of me by dogging Trump, but I have told you before I truly did not like the guy. So...swing and a miss on your part.

Not wrong b/c you move the goalposts on my statement and redirect to another topic/graph that you got from Bloomberg's echo chamber you live in. I stand by my statement "If you don't believe productivity decreases when you remove reward for productivity, then you are a robot or alien". It is common sense. I will show you that you don't need someone else to do your thinking for you...

If you start getting paid 10% of your current salary, will you continue to be just as productive as you are now?

 

[vector2]

I get that you are trying to get a rise out of me by dogging Trump, but I have told you before I truly did not like the guy. So...swing and a miss on your part.

Not wrong b/c you move the goalposts on my statement and redirect to another topic/graph that you got from Bloomberg's echo chamber you live in. I stand by my statement "If you don't believe productivity decreases when you remove reward for productivity, then you are a robot or alien". It is common sense. I will show you that you don't need someone else to do your thinking for you...

If you start getting paid 10% of your current salary, will you continue to be just as productive as you are now?

Tell us, who’d you vote for this past yr and in 2016?

So you don’t dispute that raising the minimum wage didn’t affect job growth in the places where empiric data is available? Good to know. Glad you finally concur.

Also, your productivity claim is false despite your attempt to throw in hyperbolic anecdotes. People are getting paid less in real dollars adjusted for inflation, but yet are working more hours and are more productive than ever when it comes to GNP. That’s another one of those pesky things called facts which you don’t seem to like so much.

 

[vector2]

San Francisco made their minimum wage $12.25 in 2015 and has raised it every year or two since. It’s currently $16 an hr.

This is what their job growth and unemployment looked like

 

[chocomorsel]

Welcome to the club. I don't think people should get what they 'feel' they need. But I will take the other approach so you see how it feels....

So you don't care about people suffering from severe pain??? These people have a disease that they were born with and no medication is helping them. They can't sleep. They can't work. They can't play with their kids. They can't help or afford to have it fixed. How can you sit there and watch them suffer? Are you really that stingy and afraid to lose a couple of pennies to not help these people? Are you an elitist that deserves it more just b/c you won the birth lottery and have more money? How can you not care? I must care more than you. I think they should be able to have it today and you should pay even more taxes. What a elitist, uncaring heartless person you must be!!!!

I would have problems being on your "realist" panel. Just b/c you change the name doesn't make it better. It is the actions that cause me issue, not the name. I can't believe you can say that and so quickly call others heartless. wow. It sounds like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

What, rich people or elitists are immune to pain? Whatever's a chronic issue that isn't going to kill you can wait. Who's saying I deserve it more or faster because I won the birth lottery? Where did I say that? The Canadian system is perfectly fine with me. Anything else is icing on the cake. I don't have to pay extra to get a new knee faster. I just have to wait longer. Quite frankly I am OK with people who can afford it get extra care if they want but not get the express service to the much needed organs that you cannot manufacture. Like you said, life isn't fair, but everyone gets access to a new knee if they pay taxes. Experimental new treatments, everyone gets to line up. I haven't thought every single thing through, just the basics here.

And yeah, wasting resources on dying people just because someone erroneously believes in miracles and "grandpa with COPD/CHF/Metastatic CA/ CAD/CRI 4 is a FIGHTER!" is a total waste of time, money and resources. I stand by that. We are not meant to live forever. By any chance do you work in the ICU?

 

[BobLoblaw78]

Tell us, who’d you vote for this past yr and in 2016?

So you don’t dispute that raising the minimum wage didn’t affect job growth in the places where empiric data is available? Good to know. Glad you finally concur.

Also, your productivity claim is false despite your attempt to throw in hyperbolic anecdotes. People are getting paid less in real dollars adjusted for inflation, but yet are working more hours and are more productive than ever when it comes to GNP. That’s another one of those pesky things called facts which you don’t seem to like so much.

You always redirect and pivot to other points. I guess if you vote for someone that means you like them??? So you must love Biden and Hillary? FYI, I would vote vote for a vegetable over Biden (sorry, bad comparison). Just bc I vote against someone doesn't mean I like the other choice.

To answer your question, which you still don't do yourself, I voted Trump in the presidential elections but never in the primary. Was Biden your #1 choice? Does that mean you didn't vote for him over Trump? (idk, maybe Biden was your #1)

Have you figured out why you never answer questions and discuss matters the way you do? Is it subconscious or purposeful? It is littered with Saul Alinsky tactics.

It is a fact that you would not do the same work for 10% of your pay. FACT

 

[BobLoblaw78]

What, rich people or elitists are immune to pain? Whatever's a chronic issue that isn't going to kill you can wait. Who's saying I deserve it more or faster because I won the birth lottery? Where did I say that? The Canadian system is perfectly fine with me. Anything else is icing on the cake. I don't have to pay extra to get a new knee faster. I just have to wait longer. Quite frankly I am OK with people who can afford it get extra care if they want but not get the express service to the much needed organs that you cannot manufacture. Like you said, life isn't fair, but everyone gets access to a new knee if they pay taxes. Experimental new treatments, everyone gets to line up. I haven't thought every single thing through, just the basics here.

And yeah, wasting resources on dying people just because someone erroneously believes in miracles and "grandpa with COPD/CHF/Metastatic CA/ CAD/CRI 4 is a FIGHTER!" is a total waste of time, money and resources. I stand by that. We are not meant to live forever. By any chance do you work in the ICU?

We are all dying here. To sit on a board and decide would be very difficult for me to draw the line anywhere. I agree that we shouldn't do futile care. I am just not sure where you stop the care. What dollar amount is too much? Oof, tough for me to say.

My problem with paying healthcare for people that smoke....do you give lung transplant to lifelong smoker? Or the liver to the alcoholic? My reasoning is the exact same as those. It is just on a different part of the line/spectrum.

No regular ICU work for me.

 

[Lawpy]

Minimum wage only works effectively in cases where the labor market acts like a monopsony. So a minimum wage increase would work far better at a megacorporation like walmart than at a small local business

 

[vector2]

You always redirect and pivot to other points. I guess if you vote for someone that means you like them??? So you must love Biden and Hillary? FYI, I would vote vote for a vegetable over Biden (sorry, bad comparison). Just bc I vote against someone doesn't mean I like the other choice.

To answer your question, which you still don't do yourself, I voted Trump in the presidential elections but never in the primary. Was Biden your #1 choice? Does that mean you didn't vote for him over Trump? (idk, maybe Biden was your #1)

Have you figured out why you never answer questions and discuss matters the way you do? Is it subconscious or purposeful? It is littered with Saul Alinsky tactics.

It is a fact that you would not do the same work for 10% of your pay. FACT

I really don't care whether you "like" him or not. That part is actually the least relevant unless of course you're voting for who you'd rather take to the prom.

Your nonsensical Randian verbal diarrhea about "fakers" speaks to the notion that you at least nominally care about economic, business, and leadership competence. You go on at length about all the lowlifes you think are leeching from society, but yet you remain hilariously oblivious to the fact that you voted twice for someone who was born rich, inherited 400 million from his dad, bankrupted multiple, multiple businesses, defrauded a charity, defrauded trump "university", stiffed multiple contractors, avoided paying taxes for 15 years, and
took his company public before losing $647 million and leaving all the shareholders with the bag before the stock was delisted.

And of course all that was before he finished his disastrous one-term presidency with a bungling covid response which made the economic downturn worse and lost his party the WH, the Senate, and the House.


So, you can see how someone would have to have multiple screws loose to think that you know even the slightest about what you're talking about when you refer to anything related to macro, jobs, employment, the minimum wage, who should be economic winners, and who is actually a "faker"