COVID-19 Shutting Down Schools?

[Melchizedek]

So the undergrad at my school is already shutting down and moving final exams online. Currently looking into logistics of moving ALL classes online.
The med school itself has cancelled our mandatory volunteering and standardized patient experiences.
Not trying to be alarmist, but to what extent do we think this will affect our education processes? Trying to anticipate and contingency plan.


Thoughts?

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[Goro]

Things will go online. Our contingency plans will be to record lectures and/or of some type of videoconferencing.

Exam will be more problematic, but with some some of social distancing involved.

 

[Frogger27]

The real question is how schools decide to handle the 3rd year students. 1st and 2nd years can easily be online

 

[Melchizedek]

The real question is how schools decide to handle the 3rd year students. 1st and 2nd years can easily be online

In terms of what? Do you mean clinical rotations or for the shelf exams?

I’m under the impression that 3rd year is for students to start slowly taking on responsibilities of a physician and learning about their day to day. Physicians don’t check out when there’s an illness so I can’t imagine schools will cancel clinicals as that teaches us the wrong mentality

 

[grebes4lyfe]

Penn (including PennVet and Med) has gone online for classes. Clinical rotations are still happening. Externships are at the discretion of the dean.

 

[radsisrad]

M1 and M2 should arguably not even exist, and completing them online is what most do anyway. It'll be fine.

 

[Frogger27]

In terms of what? Do you mean clinical rotations or for the shelf exams?

I’m under the impression that 3rd year is for students to start slowly taking on responsibilities of a physician and learning about their day to day. Physicians don’t check out when there’s an illness so I can’t imagine schools will cancel clinicals as that teaches us the wrong mentality

I'm talking about schools banning third year students from rotations to "minimize risk of exposure" for students and patients. Total BS IMO but it is most likely being discussed at every medical school. Delaying core rotations for whole medical classes would have dire consequences for students in terms of planning their upcoming electives (especially people applying for away rotations in competitive fields), meeting graduation requirements, etc

 

[Espressso]

I'm talking about schools banning third year students from rotations to "minimize risk of exposure" for students and patients. Total BS IMO but it is most likely being discussed at every medical school. Delaying core rotations for whole medical classes would dire consequences for students in terms of planning their upcoming electives (especially people applying for away rotations in competitive fields), meeting graduation requirements, etc

Bruh, I'm on ID right now as an M3 and just loving life right now. They can't get me off rotations at this point.

 

[kb1900]

Our school has stopped any didactics but is keeping small group stuff for the m1-2s. Our clinical rotations and electives are still ongoing except for ED rotations (canceled). Also student are forbidden from going to the ED for consults/admits etc. International electives are also canceled obviously.

But things are changing day to day

 

[ciestar]

Our M3’s still have their shelf exams tomorrow but everything else classroom related has been cancelled.

Rotations are still a go. For surgery that is ridiculous since you cannot scrub at all.. what is the point? For me that would have been 10 weeks of shadowing.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

Our M3’s still have their shelf exams tomorrow but everything else classroom related has been cancelled.

Rotations are still a go. For surgery that is ridiculous since you cannot scrub at all.. what is the point? For me that would have been 10 weeks of shadowing.

There's plenty of scut to do.

 

[sunshinefl]

Our M3’s still have their shelf exams tomorrow but everything else classroom related has been cancelled.

Rotations are still a go. For surgery that is ridiculous since you cannot scrub at all.. what is the point? For me that would have been 10 weeks of shadowing.

Why aren’t they scrubbing in?

 

[Melchizedek]

So the undergrad at my school is already shutting down and moving final exams online. Currently looking into logistics of moving ALL classes online.
The med school itself has cancelled our mandatory volunteering and standardized patient experiences.
Not trying to be alarmist, but to what extent do we think this will affect our education processes? Trying to anticipate and contingency plan.


Thoughts?

Update on this, they just sent out an email cancelling almost everything that involves large group gatherings.

 

[Espressso]

Why aren’t they scrubbing in?

Because many hospitals are projecting shortages of OR PPE within the next few months. Time to ration supplies.

 

[Giovanotto]

Because many hospitals are projecting shortages of OR PPE within the next few months. Time to ration supplies.

Students are rationing tuition payments then yeah?

 

[deleted1005514]

Things will go online. Our contingency plans will be to record lectures and/or of some type of videoconferencing.

Exam will be more problematic, but with some some of social distancing involved.

What’s the contingency plan for OMM? Isn’t there a required amount of “hands on” hours that have to be done?

 

[TakotsuboOkazaki]

If they shut down prometric I might cry.

-An MS2 in dedicated.

 

[kuzy]

What’s the contingency plan for OMM? Isn’t there a required amount of “hands on” hours that have to be done?

You think COVID-19 could actually be powerful enough to cancel my weekly bone wizardry class??

 

[Goro]

What’s the contingency plan for OMM? Isn’t there a required amount of “hands on” hours that have to be done?

Haven't a clue!! Ditto for clinical medicine labs

 

[CyrilFiggis]

In terms of what? Do you mean clinical rotations or for the shelf exams?

I’m under the impression that 3rd year is for students to start slowly taking on responsibilities of a physician and learning about their day to day. Physicians don’t check out when there’s an illness so I can’t imagine schools will cancel clinicals as that teaches us the wrong mentality

We currently still have clinical rotations, but have been restricted from caring for anyone with droplet/airborne precautions. This is both to limit PPE usage and because we have over 15 clinical sites and it would be really bad if a med student seeded multiple hospitals.

As an M4 a week away from match, I’ve frankly just stopped caring about anyone but myself and next Friday.

 

[Avulse]

If they shut down prometric I might cry.

-An MS2 in dedicated.

in the same boat, i cant take any more weeks of the horror

 

[ciestar]

There's plenty of scut to do.

Where i did my rotation they left that to interns and the prelims in particular

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

If they shut down prometric I might cry.

-An MS2 in dedicated.

I'm just starting dedicated, supposed to be traveling home for the last few weeks/the exam. If my travel get cancelled and/or prometric shuts down I will be unhappy.

 

[longhaul3]

"Mandatory volunteering"

 

[IMG69]

(UK IMG) we've had all rotations suspended and students were even pulled home from rotations last week, all lectures are cancelled. This is for the next 10 days at least, interesting time to be a Med student, oh well back to zanki

 

[ari88]

penn shut down all clinical rotations ms3 ms4's

 

[alex.jl1994]

penn shut down all clinical rotations ms3 ms4's

Has anyone else heard from their med schools? Mine said earlier in the week that rotations were still on (including ED).

 

[ciestar]

Has anyone else heard from their med schools? Mine said earlier in the week that rotations were still on (including ED).

Also in a Philly school.. got an email today saying rotations are on and to avoid COVID patients...

 

[sunshinefl]

My school (NSU) sent us lengthy communications. M1 and M2 are going to strictly online for at least a month. Clinical rotations are to continue on as usual. If your site stops allowing students, we are to contact them for alternate assignment.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Here's to hoping my white coat doesn't get cancelled

Same. My school does white coat at the end of first year, so all my buddies at other schools already got to do theirs. I thought it was kind of cool that we did ours after first year, especially since we’re on a 16 month preclerkship curriculum. And now it might be canceled. The school said they will make a decision in a few weeks.

 

[curbsideconsult]

I wonder how things will change if this new study gets published: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.09.20033217v1.full.pdf. News outlets are already announcing that it's expected to be published soon.

If it's true that SARS-Cov 2 stays on surfaces for at least 2-3 days, it's pointless to tell students to "avoid suspected COVID-19 patients." We'll be walking vectors for infection and completely unnecessarily so.

 

[echidna001]

I wonder how things will change if this new study gets published: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.09.20033217v1.full.pdf. News outlets are already announcing that it's expected to be published soon.

If it's true that SARS-Cov 2 stays on surfaces for at least 2-3 days, it's pointless to tell students to "avoid suspected COVID-19 patients." We'll be walking vectors for infection and completely unnecessarily so.

How did you find this study?? With healthcare worker infection rates, I really think this information makes sense.

I'm on a rotation right now where I'm involved in no direct patient care but of course, I'm still in the hospital and still ride in the elevators in close contact with random coughing people who don't cover their mouths. I'll be very curious to see if the AAMC changes their stance once this gets published and asks 3rd/4th years to get out of hospitals. I'm all for being on the front lines of this with everyone else if I'm really able to contribute something to patient care (and honestly - would love to be). But currently, I'm literally just standing there waiting to become another person who accidentally spreads this.

 

[curbsideconsult]

How did you find this study?? With healthcare worker infection rates, I really think this information makes sense.

I'm on a rotation right now where I'm involved in no direct patient care but of course, I'm still in the hospital and still ride in the elevators in close contact with random coughing people who don't cover their mouths. I'll be very curious to see if the AAMC changes their stance once this gets published and asks 3rd/4th years to get out of hospitals. I'm all for being on the front lines of this with everyone else if I'm really able to contribute something to patient care (and honestly - would love to be). But currently, I'm literally just standing there waiting to become another person who accidentally spreads this.

I saw it first here: The New Coronavirus Can Live On Surfaces For 2-3 Days — Here's How To Clean Them
Then: The New Coronavirus Can Live On Surfaces For 2-3 Days — Here's How To Clean Them

Edit: they are two different links.

 

[crazyboi1993]

LECOM bradenton cancelled all rotations for 3rd years and 4th year students, and is moving to online "modules" Years 1-2 is all online.

 

[libertyyne]

I wonder how things will change if this new study gets published: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.09.20033217v1.full.pdf. News outlets are already announcing that it's expected to be published soon.

If it's true that SARS-Cov 2 stays on surfaces for at least 2-3 days, it's pointless to tell students to "avoid suspected COVID-19 patients." We'll be walking vectors for infection and completely unnecessarily so.

The CDC call indicated that it can live on surfaces for up to 3 hours, not the 2-3 days. on their call yesterday. Unsure of what data they were using. Not sure what the viral load required for infection is.

All in all we have lost the containment battle, there is community spread occuring in almost every state. The estimates of 40-60% seropositivity at the end of all this may still occur, its just a question of how fast at this point. Kind of like England has kind of given up and stopped testing and is just going for herd immunity.

 

[holdthemayo]

I'm at a Chicago school. We just got pulled from M3/M4 sites for at least 2 weeks.

 

[Chibucks15]

I'm at a Chicago school. We just got pulled from M3/M4 sites for at least 2 weeks.

Did they give you any indications of what will have to happen for make ups or anything like that? Its definitely heading my way so just wondering

 

[holdthemayo]

Did they give you any indications of what will have to happen for make ups or anything like that? Its definitely heading my way so just wondering

They are working on it. The email said they are meeting to discuss graduation requirements but the M3 and M4 classes will graduate on time.

 

[Chibucks15]

They are working on it. The email said they are meeting to discuss graduation requirements but the M3 and M4 classes will graduate on time.

That's literally the only thing I care about haha if they made us do an extra year or something I'd be livid

 

[Melchizedek]

Do we think this will be >2 weeks or even >1 month? What do y'all think summer research and internship programs are going to do?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Do we think this will be >2 weeks or even >1 month? What do y'all think summer research and internship programs are going to do?

My personal estimate is no less than 30 days, more likely 6 weeks total. I hope I’m wrong.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Is there anyway we can start making a list of schools that have pulled its students off rotations?

 

[Chibucks15]

Is there anyway we can start making a list of schools that have pulled its students off rotations?

Woah you’re on probation? Never thought I’d see it. But yes we should make this list

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Woah you’re on probation? Never thought I’d see it. But yes we should make this list

I think the moderation on SDN is now very overly sensitive. We’ll leave it at that.

 

[Espressso]

The CDC call indicated that it can live on surfaces for up to 3 hours, not the 2-3 days. on their call yesterday. Unsure of what data they were using. Not sure what the viral load required for infection is.

All in all we have lost the containment battle, there is community spread occuring in almost every state. The estimates of 40-60% seropositivity at the end of all this may still occur, its just a question of how fast at this point. Kind of like England has kind of given up and stopped testing and is just going for herd immunity.

England's idea for herd immunity is absurd in my opinion. I've yet to see data on real protection following initial infection and recovery. But regardless of that, if 50% of UK is infected that is a large amount of lives lost. On top of that, I'm not confident the NHS can handle that influx and strain. The West is losing time, fast.

 

[Espressso]

To be quite frank, I think this situation will impact the class of '21 pretty significantly. I really don't see this hitting it's inflection point until the end of March of mid April at best. For the US, that is. Then how long it takes to make its way down could take another a month at best. There will most likely be legitimate after shocks to the system, across the country.

I mean, I'm hoping none of my sub-I's are cancelled but I can see there being implications all the way through interview season for us. The only glimmer of hope I have is that we're literally all in this together. Hospitals, PD's/APD's, and applicants alike.

 

[libertyyne]

England's idea for herd immunity is absurd in my opinion. I've yet to see data on real protection following initial infection and recovery. But regardless of that, if 50% of UK is infected that is a large amount of lives lost. On top of that, I'm not confident the NHS can handle that influx and strain. The West is losing time, fast.

Ohio's chief public health officer came out two days ago and said that Ohio alone likely has 100K cases. Which I am inclined to believe, considering how botched the initial response was. based on how widespread community transmission was in geographically spread out counties.

The mortality estimates in best case senario are around 500k and worse case around 2 million. I wouldnt not be surprised if at the end of this we ended up with a figure inbetween those two numbers.

The west has lost the battle, and now we are just trying to minimize the impact, which i am still unsure we have the appetite to take on the draconian measures that china adopted to stop transmission.

 

[Espressso]

Ohio's chief public health officer came out two days ago and said that Ohio alone likely has 100K cases. Which I am inclined to believe, considering how botched the initial response was. based on how widespread community transmission was in geographically spread out counties.

The mortality estimates in best case senario are around 500k and worse case around 2 million. I wouldnt not be surprised if at the end of this we ended up with a figure inbetween those two numbers.

The west has lost the battle, and now we are just trying to minimize the impact, which i am still unsure we have the appetite to take on the draconian measures that china adopted to stop transmission.

Agreed. I'm actually doing an ID rotation right now at a community hospital in Ohio. The ID team here thinks that estimate is a little inflated, but does mention to me that it's likely way higher than are confirmed. Which is probably the case across the country.

Those mortality estimates seem likely IMO. I can see this being around 40-60% of global population being infected within the next year or two. Which would mean unfathomable numbers. We could really be entering a whole new world when this settles. And I can't get over how much we botched this. There is still no coordinated federal response. States are on their own, as well as countries too. It's really quite something.

 

[radsisrad]

The west has lost the battle, and now we are just trying to minimize the impact, which i am still unsure we have the appetite to take on the draconian measures that china adopted to stop transmission.

Western countries are doing as well as they can with what's been handed to them.

We didn't ask for this battle. If China's markets didn't resemble scenes in Upton Sinclair novels, we probably would have never heard of Sars-CoV-2.

 

[Espressso]

Western countries are doing as well as they can with what's been handed to them.

We didn't ask for this battle. If China's markets didn't resemble scenes in Upton Sinclair novels, we probably would have never heard of Sars-CoV-2.

Disagree completely. First of all, no one asks for these battles. The battle came and we didn't do our job putting effort in early. The US has dropped the ball multiple times since mid January. And we continue to do so. The UK is following a similar path as us, and we're following Spain and Italy. Only time will tell but Western countries, specifically the US are not doing as well as we can.