COVID-19 and impact on school

[MixedAnimals77]

Hey all! Hope everyone is doing well and staying safe. What are your guys' vet schools doing this Fall? Everything online/online lectures but in person labs? My school still hasn't told us what our plan is, so I would think it would be the same to others except for the Caribbean schools which I believe are online only.

This will pry get moved to the other thread of COVID impact on schools. SAVMA last I knew was also working on putting together a compilation of what different schools were doing. WSU's current plan is labs in person with rotating days of ~25% of the class in the classroom everyone else will be at home learning. All online after thanksgiving

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[battie]

SAVMA last I knew was also working on putting together a compilation of what different schools were doing.

This would be cool to see, though I bet August is the earliest we would see a list since things change weekly.

 

[FutureFelineVet]

Hey all! Hope everyone is doing well and staying safe. What are your guys' vet schools doing this Fall? Everything online/online lectures but in person labs? My school still hasn't told us what our plan is, so I would think it would be the same to others except for the Caribbean schools which I believe are online only.

I’m at Ross and all semesters lectures are online, but 3rd, 6th, and 7th semesters will have in person labs. 3rd is returning so they can finish anatomy because it can’t be pushed back any further for them, 6th & 7th for anesthesia/surgery labs. Other semesters will have modified online labs where we’ll learn some stuff online, and then actually do the hands on portions once back on island.

 

[SnowJ]

Hey all! Hope everyone is doing well and staying safe. What are your guys' vet schools doing this Fall? Everything online/online lectures but in person labs? My school still hasn't told us what our plan is, so I would think it would be the same to others except for the Caribbean schools which I believe are online only.

We are doing online lectures with in-person labs. We are also in specific groups for labs that won't change, so we wont be intermixing with our entire class. Also everything in-person ends thanksgiving so we dont all leave to see family and then come back and mingle again.

 

[WildZoo]

We are doing online lectures with in-person labs. We are also in specific groups for labs that won't change, so we wont be intermixing with our entire class. Also everything in-person ends thanksgiving so we dont all leave to see family and then come back and mingle again.

This sounds about the same as what UTK is doing (last I heard)

 

[Amanasoul]

No official word yet, but for third year here it LOOKS like VSAC (husbandry/clinical skills class) and surgery will be in person and lectures will be online (except in person for each of our classes for one hour on Friday). We'll see if it evolves more as we get closer to the start of classes.

 

[Lisagk]

They just pushed back the first day of classes at Wisconsin by a week due to COVID.
Anyone else stressed out about starting up? It's so hard to know what to expect given nobody has gone through this before. Hopefully faculty will be understanding of this when it comes to exams and grades.

 

[mmmdreamerz]

They just pushed back the first day of classes at Wisconsin by a week due to COVID.
Anyone else stressed out about starting up? It's so hard to know what to expect given nobody has gone through this before. Hopefully faculty will be understanding of this when it comes to exams and grades.

Im sure all schools are approaching it differently, but I will say that professors here have at least gotten a little bit of experience with the online format when we (4th years) did online rotations for two months. A lot of effort is going into this process. I was pleasantly surprised by how online rotations turned out...so I think you guys will be okay

 

[battie]

They just pushed back the first day of classes at Wisconsin by a week due to COVID.
Anyone else stressed out about starting up? It's so hard to know what to expect given nobody has gone through this before. Hopefully faculty will be understanding of this when it comes to exams and grades.

I purchased flight insurance for this reason. Granted, I wouldn't use it for a push back thats only a week. But two weeks or more, I'm staying right here

 

[FutureFelineVet]

They just pushed back the first day of classes at Wisconsin by a week due to COVID.
Anyone else stressed out about starting up? It's so hard to know what to expect given nobody has gone through this before. Hopefully faculty will be understanding of this when it comes to exams and grades.

I’ve been online since March and spent this entire semester online (at Ross so we go year round), and will be staying online for the fall. Things were a little rough at first as they started working the kinks out of being fully online, but honestly I’ve been happy for the most part how the school has been handling everything. It’s definitely stressful and scary, but I’m sure it will be okay for you too! Whether you’re fully online or just partially online, hopefully the school has been working on a good plan and everything will be okay—it just might be a little rocky at first

 

[Cjmjc6]

Maybe this was already addressed on this thread and I did not find it -- BUT....

I (a current VM4) am wondering if anyone else is concerned about the Match (e.g., for small animal rotating internships) this upcoming year, given that for many of us, opportunities to extern at various places have been canceled due to COVID? Of course I understand that having externships at your top hospitals prior to undergoing the Match is not a requirement for matching, but my mentors are telling me that it is best to establish relationships with these clinicians through the externships so that you have something to go on when applying to intern there. Also without visiting and learning from these specialists, how am I supposed to know if I would be a good fit as an intern there anyway?

Should I not be stressing about this? I was supposed to go to some hospitals in COVID hot spot cities, so *shocker* those are not happening anymore (at least through the end of 2020).

 

[mmmdreamerz]

Maybe this was already addressed on this thread and I did not find it -- BUT....

I (a current VM4) am wondering if anyone else is concerned about the Match (e.g., for small animal rotating internships) this upcoming year, given that for many of us, opportunities to extern at various places have been canceled due to COVID? Of course I understand that having externships at your top hospitals prior to undergoing the Match is not a requirement for matching, but my mentors are telling me that it is best to establish relationships with these clinicians through the externships so that you have something to go on when applying to intern there. Also without visiting and learning from these specialists, how am I supposed to know if I would be a good fit as an intern there anyway?

Should I not be stressing about this? I was supposed to go to some hospitals in COVID hot spot cities, so *shocker* those are not happening anymore (at least through the end of 2020).

I plan to apply to match this year...the way I see it, basically everyone is in the same boat so no one really has an advantage. Do I wish it was different? Sure. But I’m trying not to stress too much and just control the things I can, I guess. As for getting a feel for hospitals, I definitely plan to contact current interns.

 

[PippyPony]

Maybe this was already addressed on this thread and I did not find it -- BUT....

I (a current VM4) am wondering if anyone else is concerned about the Match (e.g., for small animal rotating internships) this upcoming year, given that for many of us, opportunities to extern at various places have been canceled due to COVID? Of course I understand that having externships at your top hospitals prior to undergoing the Match is not a requirement for matching, but my mentors are telling me that it is best to establish relationships with these clinicians through the externships so that you have something to go on when applying to intern there. Also without visiting and learning from these specialists, how am I supposed to know if I would be a good fit as an intern there anyway?

Should I not be stressing about this? I was supposed to go to some hospitals in COVID hot spot cities, so *shocker* those are not happening anymore (at least through the end of 2020).

You're definitely not the only one worried. Some of us don't even really have mentors to ask about this and little time to develop relationships with clinicians who can provide recommendation, so honestly... you might be better off than you think.

I can't imagine hospitals will be factoring in in-person experience as part of the application. As mmmdreamz said, we're pretty much all in the same boat with that one.

Although, people who had off-campus jobs at some of these places are probably going to have a huge advantage (which I don't begrudge them at all -- they've probably worked hard to establish those connections over the years).

If you have faculty connections at your school, they probably know someone (or know someone who knows someone) at the programs you're interested in ranking. Small profession that is highly interconnected. I'd leverage the people at your institution, because I can almost guarantee they are going to be getting phone calls from the internship directors once apps are submitted. Make sure the scoop they get on you through the grapevine is good.

On a related note, it's kinda tough to predict what's going to happen with apps this year. I feel like ~90% of my class is now interested in an internship so they get more experience in a teaching environment, but personally I'm already a little discouraged by it since I'm not set on a career path yet. So I've been questioning whether it's worth the struggle if everyone else -- with clear goals -- is gunning for the spots. Also might be tough for some people to swing an internship financially if the economy is in the tank.

 

[SkiOtter]

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[PippyPony]

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I mean, they're not wrong lol

 

[that redhead]

On a related note, it's kinda tough to predict what's going to happen with apps this year. I feel like ~90% of my class is now interested in an internship so they get more experience in a teaching environment, but personally I'm already a little discouraged by it since I'm not set on a career path yet. So I've been questioning whether it's worth the struggle if everyone else -- with clear goals -- is gunning for the spots. Also might be tough for some people to swing an internship financially if the economy is in the tank.

That's an interesting consequence of the whole thing...

By not set on a career path do you mean within the whole scope of vet med or within SA or LA? There are certainly perks to a quality internship, but there's a lot to be said for just jumping off the deep end into clinical practice and learning on the fly. I'm obviously biased having done it that way, but

 

[Corgi_Queen]

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An add on could be a glam squad/contouring pro lol

 

[battie]

but there's a lot to be said for just jumping off the deep end into clinical practice and learning on the fly. I'm obviously biased having done it that way, but

I've seen/heard people say that we should stay weeks to months into the summer in order to make up the clinics weve missed since March. That's a no for me. I'd rather jump in and learn on the fly and get paid doing it, rather than pay to learn in the VTH and graduate late. I feel that even though many of the class of 2021 won't be confident in their skills due to missing certain rotations, theyll be more than capable of making that up working their first job rather than spending more time in school.

 

[that redhead]

I've seen/heard people say that we should stay weeks to months into the summer in order to make up the clinics weve missed since March. That's a no for me. I'd rather jump in and learn on the fly and get paid doing it, rather than pay to learn in the VTH and graduate late. I feel that even though many of the class of 2021 won't be confident in their skills due to missing certain rotations, theyll be more than capable of making that up working their first job rather than spending more time in school.

Honestly, I think the most important thing I've learned is what to do when you don't know the answer to something. Ask a coworker, text or phone a fellow vet friend, VIN, textbook, etc...you can figure out pretty much anything. And if it's too weird, no one else is going to know either and that's not on you

The critical part of it all is having a practice that is willing to support you during that time - this means giving you appropriate appointment times to muddle through things that other doctors might be faster about. It means getting a lot more routine appointments versus tons of weird sick cases, at least at first. It means giving you strong support staff to work alongside, and having at least one other doctor preferably in the building that doesn't mind the million questions you are guaranteed to have. But you will learn fast on the job regardless.

 

[PippyPony]

By not set on a career path do you mean within the whole scope of vet med or within SA or LA?

Spoiler: Personal career goals, not relevant to the thread

Whole scope. I'm a hot mess and want to do about 6,000 different things.

I was hoping to use clinics to get a better sense of what might be the best fit for me... but covid situation kinda threw that plan for a loop because I'm on week 6-ish of clinics right now instead of month 6.

Internship app deadline has been pushed back, so that's good... but since our schedules got all messed up, I still haven't had most of the rotations I was most looking forward to trying out prior to the match. Now it's looking like I won't get those experiences until next spring, which is tough for decision-making. (For example, one of them is ER, which I think would be super important to try out before signing up for a small animal internship).

There are certainly perks to a quality internship, but there's a lot to be said for just jumping off the deep end into clinical practice and learning on the fly. I'm obviously biased having done it that way, but

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest that people think they will learn more from an internship, or that internships are somehow better than private practice. I definitely agree with you on the value of the "get in there" approach, especially after doing some rotations where I had primary case responsibility. It's like video games -- running headlong into the dungeon with the biggest monsters will level you up real quick

But, there's perhaps more variability in the quality and quantity of on-the-job training when you go that route. I think that's scary to a lot of us who aren't yet sure how much support we'll need in the months following graduation. We also can't go out and visit a bunch of potential employers because of covid-related travel restrictions.

I also think a lot of my class is looking for structure and predictability after the chaos of this year. Internship seems kinda like a "4th year+" program. You sign up, you show up, they own your life that year, and that's that. Constant certainty over where you're supposed to be and when. Even the application process is standardized.

 

[that redhead]

But, there's perhaps more variability in the quality and quantity of on-the-job training when you go that route.

Funny you say that - I was going to mention the variability of internship quality. At least internships have the advantage of (hypothetically at least) having the current interns or residents offer their perspectives on the program.

 

[cbucks]

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Give me that good lighting for filming tik toks

 

[Minnerbelle]

Funny you say that - I was going to mention the variability of internship quality.

I would be worried about this. With most of the academic internships and some of the more reputable private ones, you typically know what you’ll get. But there are only limited number of those spots. Which means that if there’s that many graduates wanting to do internships and they spill over onto the ****ty ones (like the one recently described in the vet student forum), it just sucks balls.

 

[Coopah]

I would be worried about this. With most of the academic internships and some of the more reputable private ones, you typically know what you’ll get. But there are only limited number of those spots. Which means that if there’s that many graduates wanting to do internships and they spill over onto the ****ty ones (like the one recently described in the vet student forum), it just sucks balls.

Just out of curiosity, you said "most" academic internships. Are there ones to stay away from?

 

[Minnerbelle]

Just out of curiosity, you said "most" academic internships. Are there ones to stay away from?

Not that I know of, but someone here mentioned one where interns were stuck by themselves without even technicians to help overnight... so apparently they exist. I just didn’t feel comfortable saying academic internship = slam dunk good.
Also, depends on your goals. If your goal was to become a more confident doctor so you could go out in practice, many academic internships allow very little surgical experience and most provide like no dental experience.

 

[mmmdreamerz]

You're definitely not the only one worried. Some of us don't even really have mentors to ask about this and little time to develop relationships with clinicians who can provide recommendation, so honestly... you might be better off than you think.

I can't imagine hospitals will be factoring in in-person experience as part of the application. As mmmdreamz said, we're pretty much all in the same boat with that one.

Although, people who had off-campus jobs at some of these places are probably going to have a huge advantage (which I don't begrudge them at all -- they've probably worked hard to establish those connections over the years).

If you have faculty connections at your school, they probably know someone (or know someone who knows someone) at the programs you're interested in ranking. Small profession that is highly interconnected. I'd leverage the people at your institution, because I can almost guarantee they are going to be getting phone calls from the internship directors once apps are submitted. Make sure the scoop they get on you through the grapevine is good.

On a related note, it's kinda tough to predict what's going to happen with apps this year. I feel like ~90% of my class is now interested in an internship so they get more experience in a teaching environment, but personally I'm already a little discouraged by it since I'm not set on a career path yet. So I've been questioning whether it's worth the struggle if everyone else -- with clear goals -- is gunning for the spots. Also might be tough for some people to swing an internship financially if the economy is in the tank.

Interesting that you think more of your class is interested in internship now...I feel like this really hadn’t changed here...

 

[Cephal0pod]

Not that I know of, but someone here mentioned one where interns were stuck by themselves without even technicians to help overnight... so apparently they exist. I just didn’t feel comfortable saying academic internship = slam dunk good.

Yep. I have a close friend in an academic program where she is alone overnight with no support staff. I believe this is true of at least a couple of other academic programs as well. And some private programs too, of course.

Not exactly an ideal situation.

I asked every program I applied to what overnight support looks like in terms of both clinician and tech/CSR staffing.

 

[Coopah]

Yep. I have a close friend in an academic program where she is alone overnight with no support staff. I believe this is true of at least a couple of other academic programs as well. And some private programs too, of course.

Not exactly an ideal situation.

I asked every program I applied to what overnight support looks like in terms of both clinician and tech/CSR staffing.

Who did you ask? I'm wondering how people go about asking current interns and the like. Do you ask the program for their contact info?

 

[Cephal0pod]

Who did you ask? I'm wondering how people go about asking current interns and the like. Do you ask the program for their contact info?

I asked both current interns (typically via email) and if the program interviewed, whoever I interviewed with. And yes, you can reach out to the person listed as the contact for that program on the VIRMP listing via email and ask (politely) for contact info of current interns. It’s a pretty common/expected practice. And of course, always good to keep in mind that intern life is cray and you may or may not hear back right away. Also, talking with the house officers at your institution can be helpful too, they might know somebody at the programs you are interested in and/or know things about it.

Also wanted to note for the folks worried about not being able to travel to places for externships at possible internship locations due to COVID - that is a bummer, but plenty of folks even in pre-COVID times match to places they never visited, so all is not lost by any means. I literally was not able to afford traveling to/doing externships at any of the programs I applied to, pre-COVID, and I matched to one of my top choices.

 

[WildZoo]

I have two friends who matched at academic internships this past cycle and neither visited those places

 

[battie]

Illinois COVID update for 4th years: we're going to have to wear masks, which the school is giving us. Since our rounds rooms do not accommodate social distancing, we are being divided up into home rooms where we will keep our stuff and food. If we want to eat or drink, we have to go there. Communication is going to be via phone to clients and via app/phone to clinicians/each other/front desk. We're expected to be in service for our cases; but we will be in our home rooms for records. Rounds are to be done online over zoom for the most part.

 

[WildZoo]

Please, for the love of God, tell your classmates not to be idiots. Being told what to do by the school isn't enough. Social pressure is probably going to be much more successful at making people think twice about doing dumb ****. After months of 0 cases in the vet school here there are now at least 6, all but (possibly) one traceable to exposure to people who attended a party a couple weekends ago, and the people who are having the worst symptoms are, of course, not the people who were actually at the party.

 

[finnickthedog]

I got my first covid screening text from the school today and I feel I need to buy a faster thermometer if I'm going to be taking my temp every single day.

Two weeks until we go back to in person clinics though I won't be going back until the second rotation since radiology was moved online.

 

[battie]

Aldo confirmed by our dean during a zoom townhall that the AVMA is requiring 30 weeks of in person clinics to graduate at this point.

 

[britzen]

I got my first covid screening text from the school today and I feel I need to buy a faster thermometer if I'm going to be taking my temp every single day.

Two weeks until we go back to in person clinics though I won't be going back until the second rotation since radiology was moved online.

I splurged on a forehead thermometer. Totally worth it.

 

[Coopah]

Aldo confirmed by our dean during a zoom townhall that the AVMA is requiring 30 weeks of in person clinics to graduate at this point.

That's good to know, our Dean is fighting for the hospital to remain open at all.

 

[battie]

That's good to know, our Dean is fighting for the hospital to remain open at all.

The only reason we can be in person right now is because our governor mandated vet med as essential at all levels. But when asked if we would be an exception if the whole university went online due to outbreaks, we were given an answer that amounted to "maybe".

 

[cohen2000]

Aldo confirmed by our dean during a zoom townhall that the AVMA is requiring 30 weeks of in person clinics to graduate at this point.

That's great. I calculated my total number of weeks in-person, taking into account that many "weeks" are only 1-2 days, I will graduate with 21 weeks in-person if things don't change.

 

[Coopah]

That's great. I calculated my total number of weeks in-person, taking into account that many "weeks" are only 1-2 days, I will graduate with 21 weeks in-person if things don't change.

How is that even possible? What are you taking?

 

[cohen2000]

How is that even possible? What are you taking?

This is an estimate, based on published syllabi and feedback from classmates who have had certain rotations already.

 

[battie]

That's great. I calculated my total number of weeks in-person, taking into account that many "weeks" are only 1-2 days, I will graduate with 21 weeks in-person if things don't change.

Omd! Maybe I misunderstood him.... But I'm pretty sure that it was 30 weeks in person. I'll double check the document they sent. That's so unfortunate

 

[finnickthedog]

Omd! Maybe I misunderstood him.... But I'm pretty sure that it was 30 weeks in person. I'll double check the document they sent. That's so unfortunate

I guess one of the questions is... how many days minimum does the AVMA require to be consider a "week" of in person? Are they actually counting days here?

 

[cohen2000]

Omd! Maybe I misunderstood him.... But I'm pretty sure that it was 30 weeks in person. I'll double check the document they sent. That's so unfortunate

No, you were right. A letter from the chair of the AVMA's Council on Education clarified that 30 weeks hands-on clinical instruction is the minimum. He then states that "If students will not receive 30 weeks of hands-on clinical education, colleges should inform the COE about how many students will be so affected, and to what degree, and what measures are being taken to compensate for the loss of hands-on training," which is quite unfortunate because no measures taken could possibly compensate for the loss of hands-on training. This also takes pressure off of schools to find ways to get us the hands-on training that used to be required. https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/2020-04/AVMA-COE-COVID-19-Letter-to-Deans.pdf

I guess one of the questions is... how many days minimum does the AVMA require to be consider a "week" of in person? Are they actually counting days here?

That's one question I had as well. I plan on calling the AVMA at some point this week to clarify some of these points. Regardless, even if a 1-day week counted as a "week", I'd still be at 26.

 

[Coopah]

No, you were right. A letter from the chair of the AVMA's Council on Education clarified that 30 weeks hands-on clinical instruction is the minimum. He then states that "If students will not receive 30 weeks of hands-on clinical education, colleges should inform the COE about how many students will be so affected, and to what degree, and what measures are being taken to compensate for the loss of hands-on training," which is quite unfortunate because no measures taken could possibly compensate for the loss of hands-on training. This also takes pressure off of schools to find ways to get us the hands-on training that used to be required. https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/2020-04/AVMA-COE-COVID-19-Letter-to-Deans.pdf


That's one question I had as well. I plan on calling the AVMA at some point this week to clarify some of these points. Regardless, even if a 1-day week counted as a "week", I'd still be at 26.

Yeah I'm not sure how they're calculating that because I figured we're only getting one half day of dermatology but I figured they'd count that as either an in person rotation or not. So I wouldn't necessarily say you have one week in person and one week not. But it depends on how they count it.

 

[Minnerbelle]

"If students will not receive 30 weeks of hands-on clinical education, colleges should inform the COE about how many students will be so affected, and to what degree, and what measures are being taken to compensate for the loss of hands-on training,"

So what does that mean? It’s ok to get under 30wks?

 

[cohen2000]

So what does that mean? It’s ok to get under 30wks?

I’m not sure. Sounds like it. That’s what I’d like to clarify with them.

 

[JaynaAli]

I’m officially in the working from home club effective today.Cases in my city never really stopped climbing ever but have gotten substantially worse lately and the lab is having new cases at least twice a week. They COVID tested all employees in my lab this week. No one I interact with had been positive yet, but it’s only a matter of time so they’re being proactive and sending us pathologists home until November when they’ll reassess and decide if we’re staying home or coming back. I still have to go into my lab to pick up cases, but I’ll read them at home. I greatly underestimated the amount of “stuff” it takes to do my job and need a second or larger desk at home haha.

 

[that redhead]

I’m officially in the working from home club effective today.Cases in my city never really stopped climbing ever but have gotten substantially worse lately and the lab is having new cases at least twice a week. They COVID tested all employees in my lab this week. No one I interact with had been positive yet, but it’s only a matter of time so they’re being proactive and sending us pathologists home until November when they’ll reassess and decide if we’re staying home or coming back. I still have to go into my lab to pick up cases, but I’ll read them at home. I greatly underestimated the amount of “stuff” it takes to do my job and need a second or larger desk at home haha.

Interesting that you can’t get cases digitally?

 

[JaynaAli]

Interesting that you can’t get cases digitally?

Anatomics get them 100% digitally and cytology is moving that way but technology isn’t quite there yet for the variability of cytology samples, imo. It works for many cases but not all. At least not to where it can be instituted on a mass level yet. The beautiful perfectly clear scans at 100x take hours so we’re finding the middle ground between resolution to feel as confident as we would on glass and scan time. There are people who read digital cytology. But not every sample is amenable (dense, too many slides, need results too fast, too complex of a tissue) so for the foreseeable future there will be a need for glass reading. I’m in a really busy location with an abundance of cases needing read on glass so that’s what they assign me. Plus all four digital scanners in my lab were down this week so we’ve been drowning in glass cases with looming turnaround times.

But in a year or two I hope we’ve got the digital cyto kinks worked out and I can work from home permanently and be able to move back to my home state.

 

[Coopah]

Anatomics get them 100% digitally and cytology is moving that way but technology isn’t quite there yet for the variability of cytology samples, imo. It works for many cases but not all. At least not to where it can be instituted on a mass level yet. The beautiful perfectly clear scans at 100x take hours so we’re finding the middle ground between resolution to feel as confident as we would on glass and scan time. There are people who read digital cytology. But not every sample is amenable (dense, too many slides, need results too fast, too complex of a tissue) so for the foreseeable future there will be a need for glass reading. I’m in a really busy location with an abundance of cases needing read on glass so that’s what they assign me. Plus all four digital scanners in my lab were down this week so we’ve been drowning in glass cases with looming turnaround times.

But in a year or two I hope we’ve got the digital cyto kinks worked out and I can work from home permanently and be able to move back to my home state.

Yeah we kept running into problems when they were trying to teach us clin path virtually. "Ok it's x amount of fields times some arbitrary number"... "ok what's a high power field on this app?" ... "uh, do your best"