Congrats, predents! Now do yourselves a favor.

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Big Time Hoosier

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Congrats to many of you celebrating acceptance to dental school! Now for those with multiple offers and before I see threads popping up about School X vs. School Y, GO TO THE CHEAPEST SCHOOL YOU GET INTO!!! Dental school is only 4 years long, but the financial ramifications may last decades. Literally decades. That’s a seriously long time. Don’t worry about the education from school to school. Regardless of where you go you will graduate knowing just enough to not be dangerous. And for my fellow gunners out there, you can specialize coming out of any school! It will all come down to you putting in the work. Your school’s name won’t do it for you.

Big Hoss

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Preach x2 :bow:
 
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Congrats to many of you celebrating acceptance to dental school! Now for those with multiple offers and before I see threads popping up about School X vs. School Y, GO TO THE CHEAPEST SCHOOL YOU GET INTO!!! Dental school is only 4 years long, but the financial ramifications may last decades. Literally decades. That’s a seriously long time. Don’t worry about the education from school to school. Regardless of where you go you will graduate knowing just enough to not be dangerous. And for my fellow gunners out there, you can specialize coming out of any school! It will all come down to you putting in the work. Your school’s name won’t do it for you.

Big Hoss
#truth
 
This is great advice but what about predents with multiple offers and an HPSP scholarship? I've having a bit of decision paralysis and would love some advice comparing schools.
 
This is great advice but what about predents with multiple offers and an HPSP scholarship? I've having a bit of decision paralysis and would love some advice comparing schools.

Pick the school you want to go to. Easy peesy. Oh and Preach #4.
 
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Cheapest school I got into is just over $400,000 :smack:
 
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#hpsplyfe

But seriously, get in touch with a recruiter now, yesterday, last week in fact. Apply to Army and Air Force (you'll maybe be too late for Navy) and try to get the 3 year scholarship if not the 4 year.

Apply to the NHSC come spring.

Basically, apply your butt off for scholarships.

@bigtimehoosier can confirm
Cheapest school I got into is just over $400,000 :smack:

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With the money I saved going to the cheaper school I am now rocking a brand new Nissan GTR, thanks big Hoss!
 
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With the money I saved going to the cheaper school I am now rocking a brand new Nissan GTR, thanks big Hoss!
I love that I read this like a promotional add.

Thanks Likkriue!
 
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#hpsplyfe

But seriously, get in touch with a recruiter now, yesterday, last week in fact. Apply to Army and Air Force (you'll maybe be too late for Navy) and try to get the 3 year scholarship if not the 4 year.

Apply to the NHSC come spring.

Basically, apply your butt off for scholarships.

@bigtimehoosier can confirm

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Definitely see if it’s not too late to apply for the HPSP. While military life isn’t always sunshine and roses, that 4 year payback goes pretty quickly.

Big Hoss
Yikes, so what you two are getting at, is if someone doesn't do, or applies and doesn't get NHSC or HPSP, $400K+ is too much for dental school?
 
400K is a lot of money. You'll be living frugally for a long time. Interest repayment alone will be like 30k/yr. If you get into a cheaper school you should.
 
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What are the commandments of Big Hoss?

1. Go to the cheapest school
2. Prestige only matters to predents not patients
3. You can specialize form any school
4. Better to have someone else pay for school than yourself (Government, parents, etc.)
5+. ???
 
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Yikes, so what you two are getting at, is if someone doesn't do, or applies and doesn't get NHSC or HPSP, $400K+ is too much for dental school?
I think the biggest misconception predents have are taxes. They think with a yearly salary of 160k, they can pay off 400k within 4-5 years no problem, but that 160k becomes 90-100k after federal and state income taxes. Sure they can throw 60k at it every year, but they would have to do that for nearly a decade to wipe out the debt and 7% interest while living off of 30k for rent/vacations/leisure activities/kids/etc.
 
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I think the biggest misconception predents have are taxes. They think with a yearly salary of 160k, they can pay off 400k within 4-5 years no problem, but that 160k becomes 90-100k after federal and state income taxes. Sure they can throw 60k at it every year, but they would have to do that for nearly a decade to wipe out the debt and 7% interest while living off of 30k for rent/vacations/leisure activities/kids/etc.
You hit the nail on the head. Most of us (me included) don't have a firm concept of money. So when we sign up for these loans, we don't think about it, it's just a figure that we can't quantify, and the dental schools have told us how much money we'll be making and it'll be a cakewalk.
Even if you do the calculation, it sounds "easy" to live off of ~40K a year for 10 years, but once you're in your mid 30s with all of the expenses you listed that add up quick, you really don't know how hard it is until you're there.

It's pretty worrying and something that should be on the mind of all of us while making this huge decision. I appreciate everyone with experience trying to bring awareness to the issue here, a lot of times though, it falls on deaf ears
 
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Yikes, so what you two are getting at, is if someone doesn't do, or applies and doesn't get NHSC or HPSP, $400K+ is too much for dental school?

To preface, I've never been one for doom and gloom, but my rose colored glasses have come off since starting school over a year ago and talking to more and more practicing dentists.

What we're getting at is every school will tell you you'll be able to pay it back. Which is probably true. But you won't be able to have a good financial life while you're doing it, and it is going to take decades for you to do so.

The amount of interest alone is staggering. A recent grad I know from Roseman told me that per day, he accrues around $80 of interest. For a recent grad making $500 a day, that is 1/5th your income to interest alone. These payments come after federal and state taxes, so you're living a similar lifestyle to that which you had in D-School, except your now in your 30's, possibly with a family, saving for retirement, etc.

Everyone wants to be a dentist and live the "good life" so bad that they have their heads in the sand with regard to finances because everyone hears the starry stories of the dentist who "makes 500k a year after graduating!" and "the guy who's debt free who went to NYU and finished 3 years ago!" The financial situation which many will find themselves (one of my friends just go into ortho residency and will graduate with over $800k of debt before he sees a cent of earnings) is simply misunderstood and isn't portrayed from a realistic enough perspective for predents (and most current students) to get a grip of what that amount of debt entails.

Basically, for the blood, sweat, tears, time, it may not be worth it to pay that much for school, and definitely not if you can avoid it.

Like Big Hoss says, it be best to "suffer" through the pain of a military career, or NHSC possibly, to be able to have a stable financial future later by avoiding that amazing amount of debt.
 
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Location at this point mate. Where do you want to spend 4 years of your life?

I'm sure Nebraska is nice and all, but I much prefer Boston to that. Even with the increased living expenses.
This is great advice but what about predents with multiple offers and an HPSP scholarship? I've having a bit of decision paralysis and would love some advice comparing schools.

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Unfortunately, SDN has already blown up with "School X vs. School Y" threads. Smh


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Now seems like a good time to bump this
 
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I'll push the unpopular opinion here (for aspiring GP's). Yes, you should try to go to the cheapest school. You should also consider going to the easiest school with a high patient volume and most clinical flexibility. Remember why you're in dental school. Primary objectives are to get your license as cheap as possible and to try and maximize your training as much as possible. A school that's less bureaucratic/difficult makes your life easier and learning much easier too.
 
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Correction: I was under the assumption that a student was not allowed to hold deposits at multiple schools. That is not correct. It is possible to hold positions at multiple institutions until 15 days free March 1st. Holding multiple positions free this time is grounds for schools rescinding an offer of admissions. Thanks macsak

One disadvantage of HPSP applicants that get December acceptances is that applicants must choose a school before knowing if they got the scholarship. So my question is if there is ever such an applicant for the scholarship that they could be considered a sure bet so cost considerations take a back (or at least middle row) seat?

I think I did very well in my interviews and my interviewers had good things to say about my application as a whole. But ignoring costs still seems like a major gamble.
 
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One disadvantage of HPSP applicants that get December acceptances is that applicants must choose a school before knowing if they got the scholarship. So my question is if there is ever such an applicant for the scholarship that they could be considered a sure bet so cost considerations take a back (or at least middle row) seat?

I think I did very well in my interviews and my interviewers had good things to say about my application as a whole. But ignoring costs still seems like a major gamble.

no
you may want to make 2 deposits, one for the school you would go to if you receive scholly, and the other if you don't
 
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Right. I’m aware of that part. I just thought the deposit meant committing to going to a specific school.
it's just non-refundable
just chalk it up as a cost of doing business...
 
Bump...

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Big Hoss
 
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One word. Three actually:

REPAYE. Tax bomb.

10% of monthly discretionary income. 25 years. Tax bomb.

Unfortunately that’s what I foresee coming. After an intense 4 year dental program, I want to use my money toward actually living a decent life, rewarding myself and building a family - not seeing it all go to loans while I continue to live a super frugal life. Maybe invest it and prepare for the tax bomb? Point is, loans can last a lifetime, my life on the other hand….(snaps fingers). I’m okay with paying small amounts forever while keeping most of my income to myself. And go ahead totally understand if you disagree and just want to pay it off. Not a bad idea! Will not be easy but it’s possible. I just hope you are ready to commit and sacrifice 4 years serving the country, or hope you’re fortunate enough to be able to go into practice ownership in order to bring in some serious income to tackle the debt quickly. But again, will all come at a cost of time, and time = life. To each their own I guess…
 
One word. Three actually:

REPAYE. Tax bomb.

10% of monthly discretionary income. 25 years. Tax bomb.

Unfortunately that’s what I foresee coming. After an intense 4 year dental program, I want to use my money toward actually living a decent life, rewarding myself and building a family - not seeing it all go to loans while I continue to live a super frugal life. Maybe invest it and prepare for the tax bomb? Point is, loans can last a lifetime, my life on the other hand….(snaps fingers). I’m okay with paying small amounts forever while keeping most of my income to myself. And go ahead totally understand if you disagree and just want to pay it off. Not a bad idea! Will not be easy but it’s possible. I just hope you are ready to commit and sacrifice 4 years serving the country, or hope you’re fortunate enough to be able to go into practice ownership in order to bring in some serious income to tackle the debt quickly. But again, will all come at a cost of time, and time = life. To each their own I guess…
Before you marry someone, make sure you let your future wife know your total debt amount after dental school and tell her that you plan to use this REPAYE option to pay them back. Make sure she understands that the loan amount will balloon to $1+ million dollars by the time you retire because what you pay every month does not even cover the interest. If she’s ok with this, you guys will be fine. If you don’t plan to get married and have kids…and you only have to support yourself, then I guess using this REPAYE option to pay back your loans should be fine. The banks can’t go after dead people.

Just keep in mind that with a $1+ million in student loans, when you buy a house (I am not talking about a small condo….I am talking about a nice house in an affluent neighborhood where all the doctors and dentists live), you will have a difficult time getting a home loan despite having a nice 6-figure income and paying all the bills on time. Banks don’t lend money to broke people.
 
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... or plan on working hard to pay off your debt and have money to invest at the same time. There is no easy way out, but that doesn't mean there's no way out either. If you plan for mediocrity, of course, you will stay mediocre. I'm not discounting the opportunity costs of a million dollars of debt w/ compounded interest, but as a competent practice owner-dentist, you may be able to knock that debt out in a few years without much sacrifices on your quality of life. But... who knows, ymmv, this is my own personal experience - I won't sugar coat it but I'm also not a hypocrite and say that it's hopeless or you shouldn't do it when it's definitely worked for myself and countless others.

It still astounds me that people want to try and ignore their financial obligations through government programs that may or may not be there and accept to being a slave to student loan debt with the government in hand rather than just trying to work hard and knock out the debt in a timely fashion. You want to make the big income to be able to afford your debt service, have money to invest, AND live a good lifestyle? Move somewhere where there's opportunity, be willing to work hard, evolve as a professional, and do what it takes to succeed. Student loans are like a startup loan to your DDS/DMD. Whether your borrow 100k or 600k, it all leads to the same thing, a dental degree. From a business perspective, you want to reduce your startup costs as much as possible.

If you want that big house, that fancy car, and all the fancy trimmings of a doctor lifestyle, saddled with student loan debt, you could put yourself in a higher risk/more leveraged position, but you cannot be that person that shuts down in times of stress - in fact, you must thrive and iteratively improve to be able to support a more leveraged lifestyle. It's not an ideal way to approach things, but one thing that this pandemic has taught me is that life is too short. You could be dead tomorrow from covid 5.0 or whatever version they are selling now. You want that fancy house but have no money? Get a doctor's loan/mortgage with no money down. Want to be an owner but every bank has turned you down? Do it cheap, save some cash, build your office for the cheap. Ideally, you should be as frugal as possible until you get an office started since every action has an opportunity cost, then when your office is making enough to significantly service debt/life obligations and then some, then you're home free from your financial prison. Once you have made your money and have income that supports you, it's time to live. Work to live, not the other way around. I've said it many times, the difference between 10MM and 100MM isn't that much in lifestyle. If you live to be 50, every year you burn is 2% of your life that you will NEVER get back. The pursuit of wealth may be someone's idea of a fulfilling life, but there are limits. Would I turn away money? Definitely not, but I wouldn't waste my time pursuing more and more wealth if it meant that it takes away from me living my life.

There is at least one thing I can be thankful for in dentistry, besides the financial/material things, is the surprisingly strong immune system from the chronic exposure to everything in the oral cavity.

Students and applicants need to know themselves well before going into dentistry. Know your strengths and weaknesses. You may not know how it is to be a dentist, but you can definitely know yourself even if you don't know yourself right now. That way, you know if you have what it takes to become a successful dentist (and not just A dentist).
 
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Before you marry someone, make sure you let your future wife know your total debt amount after dental school and tell her that you plan to use this REPAYE option to pay them back. Make sure she understands that the loan amount will balloon to $1+ million dollars by the time you retire because what you pay every month does not even cover the interest. If she’s ok with this, you guys will be fine. If you don’t plan to get married and have kids…and you only have to support yourself, then I guess using this REPAYE option to pay back your loans should be fine. The banks can’t go after dead people.

Just keep in mind that with a $1+ million in student loans, when you buy a house (I am not talking about a small condo….I am talking about a nice house in an affluent neighborhood where all the doctors and dentists live), you will have a difficult time getting a home loan despite having a nice 6-figure income and paying all the bills on time. Banks don’t lend money to broke people.
Married to a Nurse. Also one should easily be able to buy a house regardless of loan status… Banks want to lend regardless of “student debt” especially now during the 21st century when it’s become so common to graduate with so much student loans. There is student debt, then there is “personal debt”. I Will buy right out of school actually. Should not be an issue at all. Being broke doesn’t necessarily equate to being in debt. Broke means you’re broke, no income: nada. Debt is debt. Which we will all have. It’s just a matter of figuring out how to cope with it without sacrificing your lifetime or what is important to you.
 
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I thought federal loans dont matter when it comes to getting bank loans? correct me if im wrong
 
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I thought federal loans dont matter when it comes to getting bank loans? correct me if im wrong
You don’t think a bank will care that you have $500,000+ in outstanding educational debt at near 6.5% interest? Because this debt is “federal student loans” somehow it won’t impact your ability to pay back other debt? Your monthly payment on $500,000 in student loans would be around $3,700 on a 20 year term. That’s around $45,000 a year...paid with after tax money. You’ll have to earn $55,000 a year to cover that. You really don’t think a bank would be concerned at all by that when you then ask for another $500,000 to say buy a home?

Big Hoss
 
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Your monthly payment on $500,000 in student loans would be around $3,700 on a 20 year term. That’s around $45,000 a year...paid with after tax money. You’ll have to earn $55,000 a year to cover that.
Wait, Big Hoss, are you telling me that one quarter to one third of my income could be headed towards paying back my student loans?!

Yes, yes I am telling you that.

0F7B2079-9CC0-4049-B487-D7334EF99C95.jpeg


Big Hoss
 
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“Your monthly payment on $500,000 in student loans would be around $3,700 on a 20 year term. That’s around $45,000 a year...paid with after tax money.”

Again. REPAYE. Monthly payment = 10% of what you will make discretionarily per month. My student loans could be 1 million. If I make 120k a year my monthly payments are 1k a month. I make 1M my monthly payments are 8,333.33. I make 60K payment is 500 a month. You get the jist…

If I make 120k a year, and pay the 1k a month(10%), The other 9k I can do whatever the heck I want with.
 
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