competitiveness of these programs?

[scm]

hey everyone, I'll be applying for neuro at the end of the summer, I'm hoping the chatter about programs will pick up, I'll certainly post post-interview impressions as long as others are helping out as well, gonna get the ball rolling...

gathering my materials, trying to figure out decent # of programs to apply to based on info from a large # of sources.

granted, UCSF, Emory, Hopkins, UWash, Columbia, UPenn, Wash U are all top tier/very competitive.

this is a big list below, but I'm trying to figure out which schools are second vs third tier to narrow down my list and make sure it includes some from each(there arent many places I wouldnt live). if anyone has heard anything about even one of the below programs(especially in terms of competitiveness/quality), or would like to make comparisons, would be very helpful(probably to others on here as well)...

Brown, Oregon, Tufts, Cornell, Mount Sinai, Stanford, Yale, UNC, UWisconsin, UCLA, UCSD, Duke, UColarado, Mayo, Northwestern, Rush, UChicago, Cleveland Clinic, Dartmouth, UVirginia, UPitt

thanks, take care
scm

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[Oneuro]

I don't know much about the competitiveness of these programs. The only info I can offer is that RUSH seemed to have quite a few papers in Neurology recently ( i was looking through them, trying to see which programs were putting out a lot of papers). I've heard that Duke is a very solid program, and I think my director mentioned Yale as a strong program too. That's pretty much all I know.

 

[Apollyon]

I've heard that Duke is a very solid program, and I think my director mentioned Yale as a strong program too.

The PD at Duke also runs the SF match for Neuro, and is a really good guy as well. The faculty are, possibly, the most brilliant group of doctors I've ever seen assembled (and I'm neither a neuro res nor neuro kiss-ass), although there is one raging dingus in the group. So, virtually all of the faculty (since I can't say "all") are also good people.

However, one resident said that there were some gaps (like closed-head injury, which is manage by NeuroSx), which might surprise some people when they go out in the community. Also, although not apparent to me (on my off-service, intern block), this resident said that didactics could be better. However, being Duke, people come from ALL OVER, so the cases were diverse, beyond the 'bread and butter' CVA (such as the woman with the pseudo-bulbar affect - no matter what emotion, she would cry; she had almost completely thrombosed her basilar artery, and was literally about 2mm away from the 'locked-in' syndrome). If you are a bit of a self-starter, you could do MUCH worse than Duke.

 

[Mitogen79]

Well, i will certainly be joining you on the interview trail it looks like... the programs you listed (washu, etc) are all great... what i've heard is that they are quite research focused... our chairman here did his residency at Washu and he has very positive things to say about it, however, i've talked to a couple people that interviewed there last year and they all say it is a fairly malignant program as far as the attendings...

Northwestern just got a new program director last year i believe... its not the best program, but i think the director is really working hard at making it better... its location is certainly one of the best...

My applications will include
Illinois - Rush (great clinical program), UIC, U of C, Northwestern, SIU

New York - NYU, Cornell, Mt. Sinai

Boston - Harvard Partners/MGH, Tufts, Boston Uni

California - UCLA, UCSF, Stanford

i hear great things about all of these programs as far as attendings, and environment to succeed/fellowships/ and research...

you should consider what kind of career you want, whether its academic or private practice. I definately want to stay i academic medicine (neuro-oncology) so i'm applying to mostly research based schools (with the exception of Rush and SIU, which have good clinical neuro programs.)

best of luck on the interview trail... i will certainly post my experience with these programs as i go along...

vish~

 

[Mollaret]

hey everyone, I'll be applying for neuro at the end of the summer, I'm hoping the chatter about programs will pick up, I'll certainly post post-interview impressions as long as others are helping out as well, gonna get the ball rolling...

gathering my materials, trying to figure out decent # of programs to apply to based on info from a large # of sources.

granted, UCSF, Emory, Hopkins, UWash, Columbia, UPenn, Wash U are all top tier/very competitive.

this is a big list below, but I'm trying to figure out which schools are second vs third tier to narrow down my list and make sure it includes some from each(there arent many places I wouldnt live). if anyone has heard anything about even one of the below programs(especially in terms of competitiveness/quality), or would like to make comparisons, would be very helpful(probably to others on here as well)...

Brown, Oregon, Tufts, Cornell, Mount Sinai, Stanford, Yale, UNC, UWisconsin, UCLA, UCSD, Duke, UColarado, Mayo, Northwestern, Rush, UChicago, Cleveland Clinic, Dartmouth, UVirginia, UPitt

thanks, take care
scm

Emory is a good program but not as competititve as the others you listed with it. Cleveland Clinic, University of Michigan, UCLA and Mayo Clinic belong in the top tier you listed. The remainder of the programs you listed are tier 2 except UPitt, Brown, and UChicago which are not as competitive. Rush is a good program, which probably belongs in the 2nd tier.

Good luck.

 

[scm]

hey thanks everyone, hope to see you on the interview trail.

interesting, i didnt realize Mayo, Cleveland, and especially UMich or UCLA were top tier/very competitive (I don't think I've seen anyone post about Mayo actually).

vish, or anyone, where/what is SIU or UIC?

is BU up there with the other programs that have been mentioned? i've never heard anything particularly good about it, but you seem to mention it among some very good programs. Does it have a similar rep as Tufts?

the people in our dept seem to find negative things to say about most 2nd tier programs (except our own), and only know folks from their specific speciality, so its hard to figure out this stuff, youre help is much appreciated.
people in our dept, formerly at Duke, did have good things to say about it, probably the best place in the southeast according to them. Also heard great things about Baylor, but, well, it's Texas.

i guess i've heard recently that places like stanford, and yale weren't so good(i dont remember the reasoning). i heard that U of Chicago was kinda traditional/conservative/stuffy bordering on malignant, just didnt sound like an enviroment where i'd be able to learn...

i wont reveal where i'm at right now, its one of these programs up there, in a big city, ill post all about it when i interview...

places like UColorado, UNC, UWisconsin, USCD, Dartmouth have a better reputation than Brown, UPitt, and UChicago?(mitogen?), i find that surprising...granted, i realize this all depends on who you talk to, but I hope to ask as many folks as possible.

anyone else w/some insight?
thanks again
scm

i'll post where i'm applying in a few weeks.

 

[GopherBrain]

Brown, Oregon, Tufts, Cornell, Mount Sinai, Stanford, Yale, UNC, UWisconsin, UCLA, UCSD, Duke, UColarado, Mayo, Northwestern, Rush, UChicago, Cleveland Clinic, Dartmouth, UVirginia, UPitt

I know a bit about some of these programs, but most of it is heresay.

Stanford is usually thought of as the #3 program in California, behind UCSF and UCLA. UCSD is also good, but not quite as good. A great place to live though, if you can afford it (true at most cali programs).

I've heard that Duke is #2 to Emory in the south, but a strong program with a research emphasis.

UWisconsin? Why? Are you from the state? Not that it is a bad place, but I never thought of it as a destination school.

Mayo is supposedly a double edged sword. You see lots of cool stuff, but a lot of the managment (reportedly) is done by fellows. Plus, the place runs like a well-oiled machine, but things are enough different than everyplace else that you might have some congnitive dissonance if you leave for fellowship or to practice elsewhere.

 

[scm]

heh UWisconsin, well I just really like Madison-its a great town, I've also heard some impressive/big deal stuff over the years about Neuro folks/research they have going on over there. I figured if I'm going to consider places nearby (i.e. stuff in chicago, mayo, umich) i would give it a chance.

thanks for the input regarding Mayo, important stuff to consider and for anyone to ask when they visit(especially about the fellows)...

indeed, I've pretty much heard the same regarding stanford CA/#3, UCSD after that, Duke is behind Emory for sure, forgot about Emory when I said "best in southeast"... I'm still wondering about UNC/Chapel Hill though. anyone?

Brown seems like a really nice place to train, I wish it had a better reputation than what I'm hearing...

take care
scm

 

[DuffMan]

I, too, will be on the interview trail this fall. I am interested in academic medicine and neuroscience research.

Getting info on the "top of the second tier" has been difficult, to put it mildly. I have asked many people their opinions, and get many different answers. The latest list I got (in no particular order) includes Emory, BIDC, UCLA, Cornell, WashU, Oregon Health Sciences, Stanford, Duke, Yale, Michigan, and Baylor.

Like you, I am trying to narrow down the ones to which I will apply/interview, and despite asking everyone I know in my local dept of Neurology, there is no consensus. I don't know about you, but the number of variables that will be going into making my eventual rank list will be mind numbing!

 

[GopherBrain]

I, too, will be on the interview trail this fall. I am interested in academic medicine and neuroscience research.

Getting info on the "top of the second tier" has been difficult, to put it mildly. I have asked many people their opinions, and get many different answers. The latest list I got (in no particular order) includes Emory, BIDC, UCLA, Cornell, WashU, Oregon Health Sciences, Stanford, Duke, Yale, Michigan, and Baylor.

We will all have to wear strange ties when we interview so we can pick out fellow SDNers.

If the discussion is who is on the top of the second tier, I have a little more input.

First, who is BIDC? I'm having some sort of TIA where I can't place that acronym.

Also, I've heard that in the Pacific NW, U of Washington is the place to be, not Oregon (although it is, undeniably a strong program). Plus, you neglected to mention U of Rochester, which definitely deserves a prominent spot on the list.

 

[DuffMan]

First, who is BIDC? I'm having some sort of TIA where I can't place that acronym.

Left off a key letter -
BIDMC = Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center

 

[tofurious]

The latest list I got (in no particular order) includes Emory, BIDC, UCLA, Cornell, WashU, Oregon Health Sciences, Stanford, Duke, Yale, Michigan, and Baylor.

There were many posts last year on the "tier"ness and competitiveness of many programs. Of the ones you listed here, WashU, UCLA, Michigan, and Duke are the better programs (in Tier 2). BIDMC is better by association with Harvard and Partners nearby. UWashington is probably more a second tier program than first, and WashU a first tier program (but malignant like mentioned already). Stanford is definitely an up and coming program (catching up to UCSF at a faster rate than BIDMC is catching up to Partners).

 

[charcot]

I agree the elite programs are Hopkins, Partners, Columbia, UCSF and UPenn. Go to any of these, and you can go anywhere for fellowship, also more easily get k08 funding or go directly to junior faculty appointment.

Next tier would be divided into 2 groups: CLINICAL TEACHING strong....BIDMC (Drs. Ronthal and Caplan are legendary teachers), Tufts..Alan Ropper is known for grand rounds with live patients, Brown...Dr. Easton is simply brilliant, U Maryland (great MS program).
CLINCAL RESEARCH strong ...WashU (neuromuscular, NCCU) , UCLA (Stroke, dementia), UCSD (movement, stroke, dementia), Stanford (epilepsy, stroke) NYU (Epilepsy, genetics), UWash (genetics, peds), Cornell (neuromuscular), BIDMC (Stroke), Northwestern (stroke, Movement), Mayo (MS, Neuromuscular), Baylor (stroke, genetics), Michigan, Cleveland Clinic.

Finally, all the rest mentioned including Emory (movement, stroke), Duke (epilepsy, neuromuscular), UNC, Colorado, UMDNJ (endovascular neurology program growing) are next tier down.

Key point when interviewing, look at the current and incoming residents...How many MD/PhDs, how many are going into academia vs private practice, how many doing research, how many IMG's.

just my opinions, but hope it helps.

 

[scm]

hey, thanks everyone, this has been great.

I know a bit about Northeast stuff, Mount Sinai hasnt been mentioned much, the dept chair (Dr.Olanow) is one of the biggest names in Movement Disorders, and a great teacher, other top people(Dr.Koller), at this clinic. Sinai is also great for MS, Dr.Lubland (formerly at Penn I think?) quite well known.

If you are interested in epilepsy, Sinai isn't the place to go I hear. I have heard that NYU is excellent for epilepsy, however not good for much else, and just, well, a not so great program all around (vs Columbia, Cornell, Sinai, I wouldn't rate it with those based on people I've talked to).

I've heard good things about Movement Disorders folks @ Oregon as well.

I'm interested in MD and/or MS, if anyone heard of good places for MS(besides UMaryland, Mayo) lemme know. People have advised me on interviews, if the people you speak to do not emphasize or have much to say about a specific subspecialty(or give info on certain subspecialties more than others), they are probably weak in that area. Doesnt mean a good solid program couldnt get you fellowship in whatever you want though...

scm

 

[Mitogen79]

i'm continuing to have the same struggles as many of you in narrowing my application list... i've spoken with a few of the faculty here and they all give variable answers, but Washu, Harvard, UCLA, Mayo, Duke, and Columbia are always mentioned...

I hear that programs like Partners/Harvard, Duke, Northwestern, UCLA, Stanford, Cornell, and Uni of Texas at Houston are good programs that have faculty with research interests in what i wanna do (neuro-oncology)...

I have my CAS application finally done and ready to send off... WOHOO (though still waiting on recommendation letters)...

is anyone else clear on ERAS? Do we need to apply only to CAS or also apply to ERAS for the one year internship spots... any knowledge on that matter would be appreciated...

thanks

vish~

 

[tofurious]

is anyone else clear on ERAS? Do we need to apply only to CAS or also apply to ERAS for the one year internship spots... any knowledge on that matter would be appreciated...

You'll need to apply to ERAS separately for the prelim/transitional year, even for programs that have PGY1 included (for formality). Many people apply for programs close to your med school since you won't know where you'll end up for the neuro match. You can always apply broadly if you are not concerned about moving/interviewing too much.

 

[Pinky]

Also heard great things about Baylor, but, well, it's Texas.

Baylor, Houston is an excellent program for neurology.

They rotate through 4 different hospitals. Methodist (private), Ben Taub (County), and a VA (the largest in the country), Texas Childrens (peds).

It's a great program that exposes residents to everything they should know before entering the world of practice or academics. The three different adult hospitals are truly a benefit to this. At Ben Taub which has a large immigrant latino population as well as impoverished population, you'll see
patients with many uncommon CNS infections and vasculitides. At the VA, you will learn basic neurology treating tons of headaches, peripheral neuropathies, and dementias. At Methodist, you will work closely with Dr. Stanley Appel, one of the world's leading experts in neurodegenerative diseases. As a resident, you will be on his service for 2 months as a lower level and 2 months as an upper level. You will also work with Jankovich, one of the premier experts in movement disorders. The strength of the program is volume of patients that you see as well as the people. The residents are quite smart. They work hard and play as hard as neurologists will play. I cannot say enough about the faculty at the VA. They are by far some of the nicest and brightest I have come across.

The didactics are also quite good. I know that the residents collectively score well on the in-service exams. There is also the chairman's rounds done each week in the bluebird conference room which all the residents and students attend. He picks a random first year resident and has them take a history and do a full neurologic examine on a patient that he has chosen. Usually these are zebra cases. Afterwards, the chosen resident is asked for a differential and then other questions. the other lower levels are also interrogated. if they are unable to answer, then the upper levels are called upon. it prepared residents well when they used to be required to take oral boards, but i think oral boards are no longer required.

As for Baylor being in Houston. Well, I am originally from Chicago and I really enjoyed being in Houston. I don't really consider Houston to be in Texas. I found it to be a really multicultural place with lots to do. There are great restaurants, wonderful museums (last year the MFA was host to the traveling exhibit from New York's Museum of Modern Art.) There are some great clubs and bars. It was also nice to be able to afford to live in fun part of town on a residents stipend and still have money left over to invest. The weather was a bit unbearable from mid May to early september, but I prefer the heat of Houston to the snow and cold depressing winters of Chicago.

 

[neurologist]

it prepared residents well when they used to be required to take oral boards, but i think oral boards are no longer required.

Oh, you are gravely mistaken about this, young Grasshopper . . . .

 

[Pinky]

sorry. didn't mean to misinform. i am no longer a neurology resident and so am not really keeping up with the requirements in the field.

however, i thought i remember recent talk that the oral boards would no longer be required after the last group that just took them. maybe it was just speculation or wishful thinking among the residents.

 

[neurologist]

That's actually very interesting. On the one hand, I suspect it's wishful thinking, since medicine has this very entrenched "It was good enough for me so it's good enough for them" attitude. On the other hand, having been through them, I can tell you that setting up oral boards in their present form has got to be a godawful expensive and cumbersome task for the ABPN to coordinate (that's why I had to pay $1200 bucks for the privilege, I guess). Who did you hear this from?

 

[neuro74]

Mayo is supposedly a double edged sword. You see lots of cool stuff, but a lot of the managment (reportedly) is done by fellows. Plus, the place runs like a well-oiled machine, but things are enough different than everyplace else that you might have some congnitive dissonance if you leave for fellowship or to practice elsewhere.

I stumbled on this site and I found the discussion very interesting, especially reading about what others perceive about the different programs. I am a resident at the Mayo Clinic and I wanted share that this program is an excellent training program. Mayo is truly a "well oiled machine", but you are an integral part of patient care. The residents typically work directly with staff without fellows. As a resident you are given autonomy with adequate resources to care for your patients.

Obviously, there are certain Mayo specific nuances, such as the Mayo reflex scale based on normals being scored 0. However, the fundamental training prepare residents and fellows to succeed in their future endeavors, whether it be academics or clinical practice.

Most of all, beyond the clinical and research opportunities provided to the residents, I find the staff and residents treat one another more than just as colleagues but as friends. I feel fortunate to be learning and growing as a physician in such a congenial environment which promotes the highest level of patient care, education, and research.

 

[residenttobe]

Neuro74, does Mayo accept IMGs? What about Mayo in Florida? Does it have the same reputation as Mayo in Rochester regarding neurology training? Thanks.

Guys, any opinions on these programs?
1. U Florida
2. Indiana U
3. Tulane
4. Boston U
5. U Massachusetts
6. U Rochester
7. CWRU

 

[GopherBrain]

Guys, any opinions on these programs?
6. U Rochester

U Rochester is easily a top-10 program. Friendly people, low cost of living... I'm hoping to end up there.

 

[residenttobe]

By top 10 you mean, in the same ranks as Columbia, UMich, Mayo, UPenn, Emory?
Would anyone know if Mayo in Florida is just as hard to get into as MAyo in Rochester?

 

[GopherBrain]

That is definitely what I mean.

I don't think the peripheral Mayos are as hard to get into as the mother ship.

 

[kasimagore1]

it's really a moot issue, but besides the usual elite 5 programs, there are just 5 spots left on the top 10 list....and you really think Rochester is one of the 5 remaining programs? What about BID, Duke, Wash U, UWash, Baylor, U Mich, or UCLA, just to name a few? I think using the tier system is probably a better (and less controversial) assessment. just my 2 cents.

 

[GopherBrain]

it's really a moot issue, but besides the usual elite 5 programs, there are just 5 spots left on the top 10 list....and you really think Rochester is one of the 5 remaining programs? What about BID, Duke, Wash U, UWash, Baylor, U Mich, or UCLA, just to name a few? I think using the tier system is probably a better (and less controversial) assessment. just my 2 cents.

I agree that a tier system is a better way to do it than arbitrarily rattling off a round number, but I stand by my earlier statement. I think Rochester is better than some of the programs named above, and deserves a space in anyone's top ten. Anyone that is willing to live in upstate NY that is...

 

[Howard Roark]

good luck

 

[scm]

sure. these are not rankings/evaluations of of residency training programs however...

 

[residenttobe]

I agree with scm. Mayo Rochester is number 1 in that list but Mayo Jacksonville is not there. Similarly, CCF is listed in number 6. Does that mean CCF in Cleveland AND Florida or just the real CCF? Any thoughts on the these programs in florida?

 

[GopherBrain]

I've got a ton of respect for Mayo Rochester, and I plan to apply there, but I think the US News ranking is essentially meaningless. I mean, combined neuro and neurosurgery? Plus, the best place to be a patient is not inherently the best place to be a resident.

 

[shrink]

Tufts is a top ranked program????
The New England Medical center is known to be near financial collapse and the entite child neuro dept is shifting to BU. Tufts is known in Boston to be a seedy program.
Partners MGH/Brigham is the best for research and very good clinically, BIDMc for sleep and pain, BU sees about 70% of Boston strokes and Tufts ???

 

[scm]

really? i was under the impression that Tufts was much better than BU...

 

[shrink]

I think Tufts had big names and does some research
BU is probably one of the best clinical programs in the country and the placewhere mordern american neurology was founded by Denny Browne.

 

[Mollaret]

I think that these rankings and tiers we are discussing are just that - a point of discussion. From my perspective, based upon the reputation and my perception of the quality of the programs, here is my (I'm just offering my opinion as a point of discussion) top programs broken down my how competitive it is to get a residency:
Highest Competition (Partners, UCSF, Hopkins, UPenn, Columbia)
Very Competitive (Mayo-Rochester, WashU, Michigan, Cleveland Clinic-Cleveland, UCLA)
Competitive (Duke, Cornell, Univ. of Rochester, Emory, Beth Israel-Deaconess)
Very Good (UVA, UWashington, Tufts, Rush Presbyterian, Stanford, Oregon, UNC, Mt. Sinai)

 

[coop]

How about the Barrow Neurological Institute in Phoenix? I know it's neurosurgery reputation is very high, but how about for neurology? I never hear it mentioned as a good/top program.

 

[residenttobe]

How about Northwestern? Tulane? UPitt? UMiami? SUNY?

 

[Mollaret]

How about the Barrow Neurological Institute in Phoenix? I know it's neurosurgery reputation is very high, but how about for neurology? I never hear it mentioned as a good/top program.

Barrow is a very strong neurosurgery program. The reputation of the neurology program is not as strong.

 

[Mollaret]

How about Northwestern? Tulane? UPitt? UMiami? SUNY?

These programs are not as competitive as the other programs I listed.

 

[residenttobe]

Thank you for that info.

 

[rdomingo]

Hey guys -- have any of you heard/read anything on these programs?

1. Virginia Commonwealth Univ (Med Coll of VA)
2. LSU
3. Penn State
4. any of the specific SUNY programs

Thanks!

 

[scared sh*tless]

Neuro74, does Mayo accept IMGs? What about Mayo in Florida? Does it have the same reputation as Mayo in Rochester regarding neurology training? Thanks.

Guys, any opinions on these programs?
1. U Florida
2. Indiana U
3. Tulane
4. Boston U
5. U Massachusetts
6. U Rochester
7. CWRU

All I can tell you about it Tulane. I think the faculty are mostly really nice and quite knowledgeble. They are ruled by Weisberg, who is like a benevolent dictator. He rules supreme but is a super nice guy. The residents seem really happy, they have free time and good cameraderie. The training is varied: at Charity hospital, the VA, and Tulane. Many go on to do an EMG fellowship there. A lot of IMGs. I think the major drawback is that there isn't too much research and they're not on top of state-of-the art stuff. But, then again, the residents seem really happy.

Hope that helped

good luck!

 

[dongfeng41]

Hey guys,

Any opinions on the following programs?

1) Georgetown

2) GW

3) Tufts