Class of 2021 job market insights

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Does anyone have any thoughts on how robust these supply projections are? As a student who was pretty intent on applying into emergency medicine this year (until stumbling onto this thread....) this is pretty concerning. I've always loved being in the ED, but if the job market is really this screwed (and maybe even getting worse?) it really makes me second guess things...

True numbers are difficult and you constantly have physicians posting about some garbage locums emails they get from some rural meth town saying the market is good as they go to their shift at a place they've been for fifteen years so they're so far removed from the actual market.

Things are drying up for sure. I don't think that projection is too far off. Aligns with another paper saying oversupply as early as next year. If I could go back I would do something else. I like EM a lot but hard to like not having a job.

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Does anyone have any thoughts on how robust these supply projections are? As a student who was pretty intent on applying into emergency medicine this year (until stumbling onto this thread....) this is pretty concerning. I've always loved being in the ED, but if the job market is really this screwed (and maybe even getting worse?) it really makes me second guess things...

Probably a bit worse now since more residencies have opened up since that report was made (2016-2017 I think?). It’s bad, but still better than the pharmacy job market at least. I think either salary/working conditions will worsen until enough old-timers quit, or EM physicians will be forced into more fellowships or niches like Urgent Care.
 
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Probably a bit worse now since more residencies have opened up since that report was made (2016-2017 I think?). It’s bad, but still better than the pharmacy job market at least. I think either salary/working conditions will worsen until enough old-timers quit, or EM physicians will be forced into more fellowships or niches like Urgent Care.

The excess 11,700 PAs will try to get some of those urgent care jobs (not including the glut load of ANP, BNP, CNP, DNP, ENP etc)
 
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The excess 11,700 PAs will try to get some of those urgent care jobs (not including the glut load of ANP, BNP, CNP, DNP, ENP etc)

I move to make "PLP" the official nonspecific non-physician practitioner designation of this forum. Credit goes to Rekt for coining the term "Pretend-Level Provider".
 
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True numbers are difficult and you constantly have physicians posting about some garbage locums emails they get from some rural meth town saying the market is good as they go to their shift at a place they've been for fifteen years so they're so far removed from the actual market.

Things are drying up for sure. I don't think that projection is too far off. Aligns with another paper saying oversupply as early as next year. If I could go back I would do something else. I like EM a lot but hard to like not having a job.

Any thoughts on what you would do instead? EM checked a lot of boxes for me, with the exception of being able to find a job in a decent place to live and maintain a salary long term that I can pay off my fat med school loans with.
 
Any thoughts on what you would do instead? EM checked a lot of boxes for me, with the exception of being able to find a job in a decent place to live and maintain a salary long term that I can pay off my fat med school loans with.

Something with an ability to do stuff outpatient and/or elective (at least semi-elective). Yes COVID happened but that’s at most a once in a decade occurrence. A job where you have an identity and you bring dollars in because you’re you will be much harder for corporate overloads to dictate over you. Any job where you are seen as anonymous/replaceable is susceptible to most of what we’re talking about here.

Look to many of the surgical subspecialties. Perhaps an IM specialty with a procedure component (GI, cards). If you don’t have the boards for those fields, even many of the less lucrative IM specialties are probably safe long term for the simple fact they don’t have as much of a target on their back for private equity to take advantage of.
 
@GatorCHOMPions doesn't Pain satisfy a lot of those categories? I'm surprised it's not brought up as much here. Even sports medicine.

Yea pain is probably a fair option but coming from EM you are fighting an uphill battle. I’m less familiar with sports med, but my understanding is if you want something full time it’s usually done intimately with an orthopedics practice and thus still not really fully in control of your work environment.
 
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Any thoughts on what you would do instead? EM checked a lot of boxes for me, with the exception of being able to find a job in a decent place to live and maintain a salary long term that I can pay off my fat med school loans with.

IR/DR, ortho, possible surgical subspecialty. Keeping a close eye on the market right now for EM and I'll likely have to do a CCM fellowship.
 
IR/DR, ortho, possible surgical subspecialty. Keeping a close eye on the market right now for EM and I'll likely have to do a CCM fellowship.

I like the idea of tox - it’s a true sub speciality of EM, and if you want you can replace a sizable portion of your income with legal consulting, working with pharma, or run a poison center.

It’s no ortho but I think within the EM world it’s pretty good and not horrendously competitive
 
I like the idea of tox - it’s a true sub speciality of EM, and if you want you can replace a sizable portion of your income with legal consulting, working with pharma, or run a poison center.

It’s no ortho but I think within the EM world it’s pretty good and not horrendously competitive
Yeah, but, also, not a cakewalk. For example, if I recall, you can only take and fail the boards twice. After the second time, you have to go back to training. No third chance.

Unless I'm wrong, and, if you fail twice, it's stick a fork in you, you're done.
 
IR/DR, ortho, possible surgical subspecialty. Keeping a close eye on the market right now for EM and I'll likely have to do a CCM fellowship.
Wasn't IR and DR in the same boat 5 years ago? I remember they had many unmatched spots due to old timers not retiring. I think I have seen they are increasing residency spots thanks to the HCA Gods.
 
Yeah, but, also, not a cakewalk. For example, if I recall, you can only take and fail the boards twice. After the second time, you have to go back to training. No third chance.

Unless I'm wrong, and, if you fail twice, it's stick a fork in you, you're done.
How hard can it be when for every question my answer will be to call poison control.
 
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How hard can it be when for every question my answer will be to call poison control.
Well, I think you're trying to make a joke, but, as the tox fellow (or attending), it's not that you are making the call, but receiving the call. It's different to make the call, and be the one taking the call.
 
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Well, I think you're trying to make a joke, but, as the tox fellow (or attending), it's not that you are making the call, but receiving the call. It's different to make the call, and be the one taking the call.
Just an aside on calling poison control. I love the question at the end especially when I'm calling about another APAP OD just to get the case number and stats:
PCC Tech - "Do you want to talk to the Tox fellow?"
Me - "You mean the EM resident who graduated last June? I'm good"
If I get a polonium poisoning or a black mamba bite I'll definitely hit them up.
 
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I registered this account (been on this website for over a decade with a different account, and cannot use it due to massive doxx potential) purely to contribute to this thread. EM attending now for a few years. Miss PandaBear's rants and Long Dong's dermatology trolling.

Make no mistake that everything @EctopicFetus has posted above is 100% true as it stands for community emergency medicine. I think @gamerEMdoc has a skewed view of EM's future prospects, partly due to his/her position in a residency program that's relatively protected, and (not trying to call out or anything) but also benefits from a steady stream of "fresh blood."

The silver lining of COVID19 is that it has brought the critical problems of EM that would have peaked in the next 5-10 years to the forefront. Due process, private equity, workforce issues (too many new residencies), medmal considerations, and others. They're all reaching an apex now, so it's an extremely scary time to be graduating or even considering emergency medicine as a career if you are a medical student. EM doctors are being FIRED. The reward for your hard work is going to shareholders who share no liability. You are now competing with far more graduates for jobs, whose debts all but require them to work residency hours as attendings for the first few years if they have any hope to pay off their debts soon. And we all know the lawyers and patients get hungrier and hungrier by the day.

I do not think that even with return of volumes will we see any return to normalcy. Midlevels reign supreme, and systems have been clear about this for the last decade. They do NOT value MD/DO expertise in the ED beyond access to the license for billing and displacing risk onto that physician's license.

Also while I agree with @gamerEMdoc regarding everybody being affected, not just EM, I think that perspective is short-sighted. Many other specialties have options for different practice environments that aren't tied to a hospital. Radiologists can own imaging centers and do outpatient stuff. They have IR, and DR. Various sub-specialty surgeons can have pure outpatient practices with surgery centers. Even FM has a plethora of options that we don't necessarily have access to unless you're one of these intrepid ER docs that's breaking off and starting DPC practices. IM and Peds both have tons of fellowships that result in a variety of outpatient practice options and significantly higher pay. EM is fairly stifling even when considering the fellowship options. And what EM doctor wants to do urgent care full time? Hourly rates aren't enough to pay back significant debt burdens, and urgent care owners don't want physicians that will practice real medicine, they want midlevels who will acquiesce to patient requests for zpacks, xrays, and steroids.

The only "hope" here is that the pendulum swing has been accelerated to now, and perhaps in 10 years we'll have a swing back, just in time for me to pay off all my loans... *dies inside*

Wow, that was incredibly depressing.
 
Wow great thread. What specialty would you all choose instead of EM if you could reverse back to med school days?
 
As someone just starting residency this year, this is terrifying.

Gonna have to do some kind of fellowship to make sure I’m not one of the ~3000 unemployed EM physicians in 2025.

Maybe tox or CCM

To everyone thinking of CCM as an “escape” - don’t. The numbers are worse.

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Wow great thread. What specialty would you all choose instead of EM if you could reverse back to med school days?
I would choose it again. I am super happy and lucky in my situation.

That being said if my kid were late in med school I would advise a surgical field that doesnt require hospital privileges.

Ortho, ENT, plastics, Derm are all great options. You control your job, as docs we have lost control and are beholden to a bunch of low IQ administrative types.
 
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I would choose it again. I am super happy and lucky in my situation.

That being said if my kid were late in med school I would advise a surgical field that doesnt require hospital privileges.

Ortho, ENT, plastics, Derm are all great options. You control your job, as docs we have lost control and are beholden to a bunch of low IQ administrative types.

Unfortunately not everyone is competitive enough to get into Ortho, plastics, derm, ENT. Hospital admin will try to suck the last drop of blood from FM,IM,EM,Peds to make their $$$$
 
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I'm assuming Ophtho would be in that mix, right?
 
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In general you want to be in a position where you can run your own practice. Those fields are competitive cause you dont need to be beholden to a circus C suite and they need you more than you need them. Yes Ophtho would definitely be in the mix though I imagine that is a specialty that is prime for being disrupted.
 
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In general you want to be in a position where you can run your own practice. Those fields are competitive cause you dont need to be beholden to a circus C suite and they need you more than you need them. Yes Ophtho would definitely be in the mix though I imagine that is a specialty that is prime for being disrupted.
They are more dependent on Medicare than most and their reimbursement keeps getting cut more than most.
 
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They are more dependent on Medicare than most and their reimbursement keeps getting cut more than most.
The conversion factor inches up. I cant speak to their RVUs for their procedures in ophtho but I know plenty of them who are making close to $1m and thats without call or weekends Or nights.
 
That part is unwise

Radiation oncology is actually one of the best gigs out there. Probably one of the most competitive specialties. You break 400-500k and have a 9-5 life, Monday to Friday without emergencies.

What more do you want for a lifestyle specialty?
 
What’s the limiting factor to own one? They make tons of money and borrowing is cheap.
In my state, CON laws.

I was a tech for the only ophthalmologist in my city who had his own surgery center. Took him 3 years and over 100k in legal fees to get permission to build it. Now don't get me wrong, great ROI once he got there. But it was a huge grind.
 
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Radiation oncology is actually one of the best gigs out there. Probably one of the most competitive specialties. You break 400-500k and have a 9-5 life, Monday to Friday without emergencies.

What more do you want for a lifestyle specialty?
You're kidding right? Their job market is horrific right now.
 
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Radiation oncology is actually one of the best gigs out there. Probably one of the most competitive specialties. You break 400-500k and have a 9-5 life, Monday to Friday without emergencies.

What more do you want for a lifestyle specialty?

I thought that is no longer the norm for radonc for awhile now
 
5 years ago it was hot when i was in medical school. I'm not up to date if things changed dramatically recently.

Rad-onc has had a dramatic rise in residencies over the last several years without increased demand. As a new grad you can’t get a decent job in a decent city nowadays. Pay is topping out at the low 300’s in mid to small sized cities I believe. Sound familiar? On top of increased supply, with new technology patients don’t need as many treatments per disease entity and reimbursement hasn’t gone up with the improved technology. That plus the older docs in the field, unlike EM, have it pretty darn good and aren’t retiring early in their careers.
 
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Radiation oncology is actually one of the best gigs out there. Probably one of the most competitive specialties. You break 400-500k and have a 9-5 life, Monday to Friday without emergencies.

What more do you want for a lifestyle specialty?
This is completely incorrect. Rad onc has been saturated for a while now. Salaries have dropped and finding a job as an attending can be exceedingly difficult. Your sentiment may have been true at one time, but it is certainly not the case now.
 
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Rad-onc has had a dramatic rise in residencies over the last several years without increased demand. As a new grad you can’t get a decent job in a decent city nowadays. Pay is topping out at the low 300’s in mid to small sized cities I believe. Sound familiar? On top of increased supply, with new technology patients don’t need as many treatments per disease entity and reimbursement hasn’t gone up with the improved technology. That plus the older docs in the field, unlike EM, have it pretty darn good and aren’t retiring early in their careers.

Sucks for them. Some of the smartest people i knew were going into rad-onc when i was in medical school.

Really looks like derm still remains the holy grail then.

If only i understood that as a 1st year med student -_-

Why don't these doctors who happily become program directors to new programs understand what they are doing to the specialty? Seriously there needs to be a hard stop on new programs in EM. 2000+ grads a year is ridiculous.
 
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Sucks for them. Some of the smartest people i knew were going into rad-onc when i was in medical school.

Really looks like derm still remains the holy grail then.

If only i understood that as a 1st year med student -_-

Why don't these doctors who happily become program directors to new programs understand what they are doing to the specialty? Seriously there needs to be a hard stop on new programs in EM. 2000+ grads a year is ridiculous.

I second this, so much.
We really are stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea.
The CMGs are opening residencies to dilute us, and the PLPs play the "Look at me daddy I'm just like you" game.

Is it any wonder why nearly all of us (we attendings, with some years under our belt) on here can say: "Dude, these hospitalists; they suck and they don't GAF."

Well, if you paid me what hospitalists make, and expected me to be an endless note-writing machine that farmed out everything to consultants, then yeah, I wouldn't GAF either.
 
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Really enjoying the immense anxiety created from reading through these threads about job prospects, etc. Currently a PGY-1.9, strongly considering a CC fellowship because of interest and genuine enjoyment in the specialty, but also to provide some lateral-type move (from a compensation aspect) and flexibility in practice environment. Running in the about 400k edu debt club so that’s an obvious factor as well. Thoughts on this trajectory in the given climate?
 
Really enjoying the immense anxiety created from reading through these threads about job prospects, etc. Currently a PGY-1.9, strongly considering a CC fellowship because of interest and genuine enjoyment in the specialty, but also to provide some lateral-type move (from a compensation aspect) and flexibility in practice environment. Running in the about 400k edu debt club so that’s an obvious factor as well. Thoughts on this trajectory in the given climate?

I don't see how it could possibly hurt you. The more options you can keep open, the better. If anything, I would encourage you to go one step further and think about opening up non medical revenue streams.
 
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Really enjoying the immense anxiety created from reading through these threads about job prospects, etc. Currently a PGY-1.9, strongly considering a CC fellowship because of interest and genuine enjoyment in the specialty, but also to provide some lateral-type move (from a compensation aspect) and flexibility in practice environment. Running in the about 400k edu debt club so that’s an obvious factor as well. Thoughts on this trajectory in the given climate?

Same situation. I'm hearing a lot of ED docs already in practice doing the same. Going back and doing a CCM fellowship. Although a lot are only 2-4 years out. So I wouldn't want to wait any longer than necessary or CCM will get saturated too.
 
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I don't see how it could possibly hurt you. The more options you can keep open, the better. If anything, I would encourage you to go one step further and think about opening up non medical revenue streams.

I would love to make some moves with this, but what options are truly available as a resident with limited financial freedom and not much time on their hands as well. I’m not particularly business savvy or craft minded either, just average Joe over here. If I did life all over, I would go into craft brewing, but I’m not sure anyone will pay me just to drink right now lol.

Same situation. I'm hearing a lot of ED docs already in practice doing the same. Going back and doing a CCM fellowship. Although a lot are only 2-4 years out. So I wouldn't want to wait any longer than necessary or CCM will get saturated too.

Right. It provides an aspect of the resuscitation adrenaline along with very sick patients, and while prone to some mid level creep, I don’t think it could be as deep or broad as EM. Not exactly what I want to hear to have even more competition for applying though.
 
I’m not particularly business savvy or craft minded either, just average Joe over here.

Best advice you (or anyone else who feels the way you do) can receive on here is to get business savvy. Its not an inborn trait. You weren’t organic chemistry savvy before you took the course either. Business is not complicated and I assure you that you have the intellectual capacity for it.

If you choose not to do this you will both open yourself up to exploitation and miss out on a lot of nonmedical income opportunities.
 
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Hello colleagues!

I was wondering if I could get some input on an offer I’ve received. It would be a full time urgent care PA position. I would be opening up a brand new clinic. No doc on site, but able to be reached easily. The training seems a little sketch, the office manager said we will figure it out as we go.

Pay: $65/hr


Company will pay for my DEA and controlled substance license

Malpractice insurance included

No benefits at this time but they are hoping by August.

I forgot to ask about CME.

What do you think?


The race to the bottom continues.
 



Hello colleagues!

I was wondering if I could get some input on an offer I’ve received. It would be a full time urgent care PA position. I would be opening up a brand new clinic. No doc on site, but able to be reached easily. The training seems a little sketch, the office manager said we will figure it out as we go.

Pay: $65/hr


Company will pay for my DEA and controlled substance license

Malpractice insurance included

No benefits at this time but they are hoping by August.

I forgot to ask about CME.

What do you think?


The race to the bottom continues.


It continues to amaze me how stupid people are.

Speaking of new grads, I met a nurse the other day. Got his RN one year ago. Already applying to NP school. Also, he calls whatever it is he's doing this year his "residency." Yeah OK BRUH.
 
It continues to amaze me how stupid people are.

Speaking of new grads, I met a nurse the other day. Got his RN one year ago. Already applying to NP school. Also, he calls whatever it is he's doing this year his "residency." Yeah OK BRUH.

Most programs now essentially require no RN experience and there's plenty of combined ones. Entrance requirements don't exist anymore. I think probably 60% of my ED nursing staff is in NP school. Usually sitting in flux trying to find random preceptors to shadow for 1-2days a week to get checked off.
 
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Most programs now essentially require no RN experience and there's plenty of combined ones. Entrance requirements don't exist anymore. I think probably 60% of my ED nursing staff is in NP school. Usually sitting in flux trying to find random preceptors to shadow for 1-2days a week to get checked off.

Yep.

So many RNs that I work with are now taking "online NP courses" and I'm now a giant jerk because I won't let them *rotate with me* and sign off on their hours.

Nope.
Not happening.

I mean; they're not even functional NURSES.
But hey; let's all take online classes together for the lolz.
 
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NP will become the new LPN -> BSN. Now you will need the ED RNs to be staffed with NPs to become "ED center of excellence."
 
NP will become the new LPN -> BSN. Now you will need the ED RNs to be staffed with NPs to become "ED center of excellence."

I had a very similar thought back in January of this year.

All these RNs are doing online NP work, but they're not even functional RNs. NP will be the new RN
 
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