Class action lawsuit against Board of Nursing

[grindtime1]

I mean, I'm plenty smart and damn near a doctor and really would have considered the PA route were I able to go back knowing what I know now. Plenty of smart people are going the NP/PA route these days because it just makes sense if you look at it objectively for a lot of different reasons, depending on what you value.

Yeah same here, but I never would have considered the NP/PA route because they are looked down upon and regarded as the "underlings" to actual physicians. But the reality is GPA and MCAT is a measure of intelligence, aptitude, hard work and academic achievement... and the mid-levels have vastly inferior qualifications and credentials in this regard compared to medical students/doctors. You'll find the odd exception here or there, but for the most part, like 98% of NPs/PAs/NAs/nurses would likely have scores that convert to the equivalent of say a 2.7 GPA and a 18-20 MCAT score (on the 1-45 scale it used to be).

Not to mention their work is a lot easier and less rigorous than that of medical students and physicians once they/we get out of the classroom/school and hit the hospital as well. You know how many hours the fat ass nurses were working compared to the interventional cardiologist at the hospital I was working at? The cardiologist's "lunch" consisted of snacking on peanuts for a few minutes in between angioplasties or while walking/running to another room. The grossly overweight nurse, OTOH, had nearly a full hour to sit on her arse on a couch in the lounge and stuff her face with greasy fatty foods, all while getting out at 3-5 pm every day.

This is why, imo, there should be color codes like they have at some schools. Mid-levels imo should not be allowed to wear white coats as those are reserved for doctors and medical students. Instead they should wear different colored scrubs from physicians. And I'd say bump their salary down to perhaps 30K/year. Janitors and McDonald's cashiers basically have the same qualifications as them but I don't see them getting paid as much...

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[NWwildcat2013]

That's another frightening part of this as NPs can just switch "specialties" whenever they want. In states with independent practice, an FM-"trained" NP can literally open up a derm or psych practice and there isn't a damn thing to stop them. Unfortunately the equal pay push will do nothing to stop this part of the problem, which is why we need to continue to educate our pts on the difference, and shut down people like Goro who completely disregard the very significant difference in training

Meanwhile I am sitting here agonizing about which specialty I am going to choose and literally be locked into during residency and all but locked into it afterwards lest I set myself back even further financially at 31 (when I am released from duty) by entering another residency.

Man do I wish I I had the future flexibility to say "Hey... now that I've seen how the sausage is make. I don't think IM is for me and I'd like to switch to neurology" and then just switch with little consequence or hassle.

 

[deafdealer]

Except what the system can afford also needs to be taken into account.That there are hundreds of thousands of PAs and NPs practicing that would have their salaries doubled overnight would be a financially untenable situation for the government and insurers on a national level. Oregon is stupid- they've shown that by their ND legislation. The nation, however, is not.

Sure it is. The same state legislatures that can't read the "studies" NPs parrot as proof of comparable outcomes will also not be able to comprehend the argument NPs bring before them regarding their right for equal pay.

 

[Mad Jack]

Sure it is. The same state legislatures that can't read the "studies" NPs parrot as proof of comparable outcomes will also not be able to comprehend the argument NPs bring before them regarding their right for equal pay.

You put far too much faith in CMS. They are all about cutting, unlike state medical boards and lawmakers. CMS controls national Medicare reimbursement rates via a panel of experts, not some dingus legislators.

 

[deafdealer]

You put far too much faith in CMS. They are all about cutting, unlike state medical boards and lawmakers. CMS controls national Medicare reimbursement rates via a panel of experts, not some dingus legislators.

Yeah that's two different things

 

[Tenk]

n=1. I've even heard psychiatrists begin to refer to themselves as "prescribers"--if that doesn't sum up the subconscious directive to drain our last ounce of self-worth, then idk what would.

My N=1 is a lot greater than the N=0 of a lot of these posters who are not attending physicians and do not practice medicine. Most of the people on this thread do not practice medicine, they are in training. Just cause you see a patient doesn't make you a practicing physician. That being said, I probably know more NP/PAs than everyone else on this thread combined. I've worked alongside them, I've trained some of them, and some (from different specialties like surgery and ortho) have even trained me in residency. I don't feel the least bit threatened by them. Once you get your training wheels off and become an attending you realize how much help you really need. We are in a terrible shortage of physicians everywhere in this country except CA and the east coast. NPs and PAs are a great help to practicing physicians. Like I said, you'll see the truth in a few years.

We have bigger fish to fry anyways like HCAHPS and the government which is destroying medicine. I'd suggest you all focus all this pent up aggression there, where it actually matters, where the government is currently cutting our reimbursements (you know that money that you are so afraid of the midlevels stealing) and forcing us to change the way we practice into this consumer driven bull****.

 

[hopefulERdoc251]

My N=1 is a lot greater than the N=0 of a lot of these posters who are not attending physicians and do not practice medicine. Most of the people on this thread do not practice medicine, they are in training. Just cause you see a patient doesn't make you a practicing physician. That being said, I probably know more NP/PAs than everyone else on this thread combined. I've worked alongside them, I've trained some of them, and some (from different specialties like surgery and ortho) have even trained me in residency. I don't feel the least bit threatened by them. Once you get your training wheels off and become an attending you realize how much help you really need. We are in a terrible shortage of physicians everywhere in this country except CA and the east coast. NPs and PAs are a great help to practicing physicians. Like I said, you'll see the truth in a few years.

We have bigger fish to fry anyways like HCAHPS and the government which is destroying medicine. I'd suggest you all focus all this pent up aggression there, where it actually matters, where the government is currently cutting our reimbursements (you know that money that you are so afraid of the midlevels stealing) and forcing us to change the way we practice into this consumer driven bull****.

But ya know, with all the lovely egotistic, self-righteous know it alls on SDN, they will still believe their point is correct while entirely discrediting somebody who is actually in the field and in the trenches. #makeSDNgreatagain

 

[Tenk]

But ya know, with all the lovely egotistic, self-righteous know it alls on SDN, they will still believe their point is correct while entirely discrediting somebody who is actually in the field and in the trenches. #makeSDNgreatagain

Just kinda baffles me that people are complaining about this when the government is currently in the process of cutting our reimbursement through surveys and other meaningless garbage. Soon our salary will come from our Yelp reviews.

 

[Winged Scapula]

A little late to the game here but all the name calling HAS TO STOP.

It is a violation of the SDN TOS to insult or harass other users. Please conduct yourselves in a civil and professional manner and stop the childish name calling.

 

[68PGunner]

If they equalize physician salaries w/ NP salaries, nobody will go to med school. Soon, every providers in this country will be overpriced midlevels. Eventually, all pts will go oversea to get care from real physicians with 1/2 the cost.

 

[Zywie]

Go look up the concept of "standing" in the Law.

Good luck with the "restraint of trade" aspect.

And how exactly are nurses doing things illegally, when state legislatures are writing the laws empowering midlevels????

Medicine is a team sport now. Deal with it. The days of you being the Big Cheese are over.

Except when something goes wrong and someone needs to be sued, then we're the person in charge and liable.

If you don't believe that the physician is at the head of the team then you are ok with ripping off people who go to medical school. It is either the training that doctors go through is a necessity to provide care at a certain acceptable level and you are ok with car being sup-bar from NPs who practice independently or you are ok with ripping off thousands of people for hundreds of thousands of dollars for unnecessary training.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yeah same here, but I never would have considered the NP/PA route because they are looked down upon and regarded as the "underlings" to actual physicians. But the reality is GPA and MCAT is a measure of intelligence, aptitude, hard work and academic achievement... and the mid-levels have vastly inferior qualifications and credentials in this regard compared to medical students/doctors. You'll find the odd exception here or there, but for the most part, like 98% of NPs/PAs/NAs/nurses would likely have scores that convert to the equivalent of say a 2.7 GPA and a 18-20 MCAT score (on the 1-45 scale it used to be).

Not to mention their work is a lot easier and less rigorous than that of medical students and physicians once they/we get out of the classroom/school and hit the hospital as well. You know how many hours the fat ass nurses were working compared to the interventional cardiologist at the hospital I was working at? The cardiologist's "lunch" consisted of snacking on peanuts for a few minutes in between angioplasties or while walking/running to another room. The grossly overweight nurse, OTOH, had nearly a full hour to sit on her arse on a couch in the lounge and stuff her face with greasy fatty foods, all while getting out at 3-5 pm every day.

This is why, imo, there should be color codes like they have at some schools. Mid-levels imo should not be allowed to wear white coats as those are reserved for doctors and medical students. Instead they should wear different colored scrubs from physicians. And I'd say bump their salary down to perhaps 30K/year. Janitors and McDonald's cashiers basically have the same qualifications as them but I don't see them getting paid as much...

You really are going way down into the deep end with the "unqualified" claims levied at midlevels. I've worked with some extremely competent PAs and NPs over the years, to say they're all hardly more qualified than a fast food worker is just ludicrous. They're certainly not as driven as physicians in regard to their professional lives, but some people will take always being second for the chance to actually, I don't know, raise a family in their 20s and actually get to spend time with their children (by far the most common reason perfectly capable people like myself are drawn to the PA route, in particular). As to your requirements of entry, the average PA student has a 3.52 per the PAEA's most recent report, hardly the 2.7 you so claim. NPs, well, that's hard to say- I personally believe NP education to be, on average, far worse than PA education and to have far less rigorous entry standards- but there's good NPs and bad ones, let's not pretend they're all incompetent fools.

It is important to be honest about the strengths and weaknesses of ourselves and midlevels, as when you say something like "they're as incompetent as fry cooks" and someone sees anecdotal evidence that they are, in fact, more competent than that, it makes our profession look dishonest and makes them more carefully scrutinize anything else they hear from US, while giving midlevels the benefit of the doubt moving forward.

 

[deafdealer]

My N=1 is a lot greater than the N=0 of a lot of these posters who are not attending physicians and do not practice medicine. Most of the people on this thread do not practice medicine, they are in training. Just cause you see a patient doesn't make you a practicing physician. That being said, I probably know more NP/PAs than everyone else on this thread combined. I've worked alongside them, I've trained some of them, and some (from different specialties like surgery and ortho) have even trained me in residency. I don't feel the least bit threatened by them. Once you get your training wheels off and become an attending you realize how much help you really need. We are in a terrible shortage of physicians everywhere in this country except CA and the east coast. NPs and PAs are a great help to practicing physicians. Like I said, you'll see the truth in a few years.

We have bigger fish to fry anyways like HCAHPS and the government which is destroying medicine. I'd suggest you all focus all this pent up aggression there, where it actually matters, where the government is currently cutting our reimbursements (you know that money that you are so afraid of the midlevels stealing) and forcing us to change the way we practice into this consumer driven bull****.

Just because you don't see the problem doesn't mean it's not there. NP scope expansion is the official policy of the AANP, and all you have to do is watch any congressional testimony on NP equality or read any legislature transcript and you'll see just how militant their narrative is. Beyond that, do you honestly not think that these people are unqualified to practice medicine independently and safely? Do you believe their outcome studies? If you do, you should be out advocating for every medical school to be bulldozed to the ground, because there's no reason to make people work 80 hrs a week while being 300k in debt if you can do it all for some couch change and a couple of online courses at Western Governors University

 

[Goro]

Oh, I'm quite fine with someone being the head of the team. My kids' pediatrician is a wonderful NP with > 20 years experience. if there's something she doesn't have a grip on, she punts to her supervising MD. I'm fine with that. My own previous care provider was also a wonderful NP. Once I had some acanthosis that worried me, she sent me right to a dermatologist.

Quarterbacks count for something. But even QBs need guards to prevent them from getting sacked. But sadly, like it or not, more and more clinicians are working in an HMO environs, where the CFO says "Don't use drug X, use Y, because we get a better deal from Genentech." So who's the Big Cheese there?

What I object to in these threads is NOT the attitude of "midlevels are dangerous and don't know it" [although I'd love to see some data backing this up] but the chronic bleat of entitlement that comes from "I went to school for eight years so I'm better than them" and "I have a higher GPA and MCAT score, so I'm better than them". Then there's the meme of "How dare those peasants rise above station"! Threads like these are lousy with this type of arrogance. It seems to be worst emanating from pre-meds, and preclinical med students.

So listen to the wise Dr Tenk, who is out in the field, not in the classroom.

And for the rest of you, stop acting like you crawled out of Breitbart or r/premed.

Except when something goes wrong and someone needs to be sued, then we're the person in charge and liable.

If you don't believe that the physician is at the head of the team then you are ok with ripping off people who go to medical school. It is either the training that doctors go through is a necessity to provide care at a certain acceptable level and you are ok with car being sup-bar from NPs who practice independently or you are ok with ripping off thousands of people for hundreds of thousands of dollars for unnecessary training.

 

[zero0]

My N=1 is a lot greater than the N=0 of a lot of these posters who are not attending physicians and do not practice medicine. Most of the people on this thread do not practice medicine, they are in training. Just cause you see a patient doesn't make you a practicing physician. That being said, I probably know more NP/PAs than everyone else on this thread combined. I've worked alongside them, I've trained some of them, and some (from different specialties like surgery and ortho) have even trained me in residency. I don't feel the least bit threatened by them. Once you get your training wheels off and become an attending you realize how much help you really need. We are in a terrible shortage of physicians everywhere in this country except CA and the east coast. NPs and PAs are a great help to practicing physicians. Like I said, you'll see the truth in a few years.

We have bigger fish to fry anyways like HCAHPS and the government which is destroying medicine. I'd suggest you all focus all this pent up aggression there, where it actually matters, where the government is currently cutting our reimbursements (you know that money that you are so afraid of the midlevels stealing) and forcing us to change the way we practice into this consumer driven bull****.

I don't think anybody's saying midlevels are bad (idk haven't really read the thread), but they need to know their place. PAs, for the most part, seem to stick to their limited scope but nurses, on the other hand, are a cancer...

 

[grindtime1]

Oh, I'm quite fine with someone being the head of the team. My kids' pediatrician is a wonderful NP with > 20 years experience. if there's something she doesn't have a grip on, she punts to her supervising MD. I'm fine with that. My own previous care provider was also a wonderful NP. Once I had some acanthosis that worried me, she sent me right to a dermatologist.

Quarterbacks count for something. But even QBs need guards to prevent them from getting sacked. But sadly, like it or not, more and more clinicians are working in an HMO environs, where the CFO says "Don't use drug X, use Y, because we get a better deal from Genentech." So who's the Big Cheese there?

What I object to in these threads is NOT the attitude of "midlevels are dangerous and don't know it" [although I'd love to see some data backing this up] but the chronic bleat of entitlement that comes from "I went to school for eight years so I'm better than them" and "I have a higher GPA and MCAT score, so I'm better than them". Then there's the meme of "How dare those peasants rise above station"! Threads like these are lousy with this type of arrogance. It seems to be worst emanating from pre-meds, and preclinical med students.

So listen to the wise Dr Tenk, who is out in the field, not in the classroom.

And for the rest of you, stop acting like you crawled out of Breitbart or r/premed.

She isn't a pediatrician. She is an NP. She did not go to medical school and therefore she could not possibly be called a pediatrician or doctor.

Thanks for the laugh though, and I truly am laughing very hard right now.

 

[username456789]

But even QBs need guards to prevent them from getting sacked.

This is exactly what we're trying to do. And you're one of the people encouraging the opposing coach to set up an 11-man blitz.

There is nothing wrong with wanting nurses to practice nursing. When they practice medicine (sometimes poorly, sometimes not) but pretend it's not medicine, that's extremely disingenuous.

I've beat to death the whole "the midlevels with whom I work are woefully undereducated in our specialty" thing to death. And ultimately it's not the major threat - but it does contribute to the continued anti-intellectualism that is rampant in this country. And you're encouraging it.

BTW your kid is not seeing a pediatrician. Your kid is seeing a pediatric NP.

Words actually mean things.

 

[Peach Newport]

Warning: I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Isn't this theoretically a problem that could be solved by expanding GME, but only in underserved areas?

Expanding GME could "decrease the value of a medical degree" but statistically people practice where they do residency, so wouldn't this limit the dilution factor?

Put more doctors in underserved areas, and wouldn't you eliminate a significant driving force for midlevel encroachment?

This would also create a pool of relatively uncompetitive residency spots for IMGs and "safety" spots for US grads.

 

[Astra]

but the chronic bleat of entitlement that comes from "I went to school for eight years so I'm better than them"

How is that entitlement? Genuinely curious. We have to undergo longer schooling, more clinical hours before we are allowed to practice, more rigorous schooling, AND a larger cost of attendance on top of that.

I personally feel like doctors ARE better than NP's, PA's or any other midlevel. But that doesn't mean that NP's, PA's or other midlevels are bad, just not as good as doctors. There is a knowledge gap between midlevels and physicians and to deny that is foolish.

When people begin saying they are nearly equal or equal, that's when legislation that empowers mid levels gets passed while eroding powers from physicians.

Then there's the meme of "How dare those peasants rise above station"!

How is this a meme? Why is wanting midlevels to not have the same legal practicing rights as doctors a meme? Sure there are elitist people here who look down on midlevels but a lot of us are genuinely concerned about the medical profession. Please don't be so condescending or dismissive.

And for the rest of you, stop acting like you crawled out of Breitbart or r/premed.

Funny how you managed to turn this political. I could replace breitbart with WashingtonPost and your statement would still be valid.

 

[deafdealer]

Oh, I'm quite fine with someone being the head of the team. My kids' pediatrician is a wonderful NP with > 20 years experience. if there's something she doesn't have a grip on, she punts to her supervising MD. I'm fine with that. My own previous care provider was also a wonderful NP. Once I had some acanthosis that worried me, she sent me right to a dermatologist.

Quarterbacks count for something. But even QBs need guards to prevent them from getting sacked. But sadly, like it or not, more and more clinicians are working in an HMO environs, where the CFO says "Don't use drug X, use Y, because we get a better deal from Genentech." So who's the Big Cheese there?

What I object to in these threads is NOT the attitude of "midlevels are dangerous and don't know it" [although I'd love to see some data backing this up] but the chronic bleat of entitlement that comes from "I went to school for eight years so I'm better than them" and "I have a higher GPA and MCAT score, so I'm better than them". Then there's the meme of "How dare those peasants rise above station"! Threads like these are lousy with this type of arrogance. It seems to be worst emanating from pre-meds, and preclinical med students.

So listen to the wise Dr Tenk, who is out in the field, not in the classroom.

And for the rest of you, stop acting like you crawled out of Breitbart or r/premed.

20+ years of experience doing what? Starting IVs and pushing meds? How did medicine go about before the rapid midlevel expansion, perpetuated by unlimited student loans and a floundering economy? It got by just fine. There was never a "need" for "team-based" medicine--this was propaganda from the start to increase the bottom line of admins and hospital groups

 

[YoungDoc25]

So if NPs are the new MDs, are CNAs the new RNs..? Just trying to figure out where the line is drawn.

New route to being called a doctor:
Become an RN and work for 5 years. You will now be called an NP. Work as an NP for 10 years. You will now be called a doctor. Perfect!!

Nothing can top the experience of being a nurse. Not even a real education with thousands upon thousands of clinical hours.


FWIW; if NPs and PAs want to be the big dawg, let them take Step 3 where diagnostic skills are tested. If they can pass that, let them do their thing.

 

[YoungDoc25]

Also, for all of the sports references being thrown around on here, I was a college athlete and we had a great saying that went as follows:

KNOW YOUR ROLE

 

[cbrons]

How come all the Social Justice Warriors dont start a protest about this issue?

Are they ok with poor people getting the NP/PA while the "rich" get the MDs? A two tier system - medicaiders to the midlevels and MDs for those with money. I guess the SJWs are perfectly fine with that.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

 

[cbrons]

So if NPs are the new MDs, are CNAs the new RNs..? Just trying to figure out where the line is drawn.

New route to being called a doctor:
Become an RN and work for 5 years. You will now be called an NP. Work as an NP for 10 years. You will now be called a doctor. Perfect!!

Nothing can top the experience of being a nurse. Not even a real education with thousands upon thousands of clinical hours.


FWIW; if NPs and PAs want to be the big dawg, let them take Step 3 where diagnostic skills are tested. If they can pass that, let them do their thing.

Except the NPs were already given an extremely watered down version of Step 3 (the easiest of all of the exams) and the majority of them failed.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

 

[Zywie]

Oh, I'm quite fine with someone being the head of the team. My kids' pediatrician is a wonderful NP with > 20 years experience. if there's something she doesn't have a grip on, she punts to her supervising MD. I'm fine with that. My own previous care provider was also a wonderful NP. Once I had some acanthosis that worried me, she sent me right to a dermatologist.

Quarterbacks count for something. But even QBs need guards to prevent them from getting sacked. But sadly, like it or not, more and more clinicians are working in an HMO environs, where the CFO says "Don't use drug X, use Y, because we get a better deal from Genentech." So who's the Big Cheese there?

What I object to in these threads is NOT the attitude of "midlevels are dangerous and don't know it" [although I'd love to see some data backing this up] but the chronic bleat of entitlement that comes from "I went to school for eight years so I'm better than them" and "I have a higher GPA and MCAT score, so I'm better than them". Then there's the meme of "How dare those peasants rise above station"! Threads like these are lousy with this type of arrogance. It seems to be worst emanating from pre-meds, and preclinical med students.

So listen to the wise Dr Tenk, who is out in the field, not in the classroom.

And for the rest of you, stop acting like you crawled out of Breitbart or r/premed.

Most people here aren't saying that midlevels don't have a place or add value to a team. NPs and PAs can be a huge help and I have friends that are PAs who are more intellectually curious than some of my med student friends. They will go and research stuff they see through out their work day just so they understand more about it, keep up with all of the pertinent research in their fields and are just generally curious when it comes to learning more about medicine. They're great PAs, but they have there place as PAs, not as a physician.

NPs and PAs (more so the NPs) pushing for the same rights as an MD/DO is dangerous. Like you said your child's NP and your NP both practiced within their scope, and in that setting they are valuable. When they start saying they are the equivalent of a physician is where I, and most people seem to take issue. Why do you think those guards don't play QB even though they understand the offense, or the QB play guard even though he knows everything about the offense and the ability to read the defense? Same thing with midlevels, they're not trained to have the same rights as an MD/DO and thats what the issue is. You can not equate the training of an NP to a MD. If you are saying that NPs can do the same thing as an MD with the same results than you're saying medical school and residency is a waste of time and money. You can not argue that NP/PA training is adequate to deliver the same outcomes as an MD/DO AND say that the current physician training model is necessary. It is either that the MD/DO training is necessary and NP/PA is not adequate or NP/PA training is adequate and MD/DO is overkill

 

[Goro]

Finally, THIS is novel and refreshing !!! Kudos to you, cbrons!

How come all the Social Justice Warriors dont start a protest about this issue?

Are they ok with poor people getting the NP/PA while the "rich" get the MDs? A two tier system - medicaiders to the midlevels and MDs for those with money. I guess the SJWs are perfectly fine with that.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

 

[jw3600]

Oh, I'm quite fine with someone being the head of the team. My kids' pediatrician is a wonderful NP with > 20 years experience. if there's something she doesn't have a grip on, she punts to her supervising MD. I'm fine with that. My own previous care provider was also a wonderful NP. Once I had some acanthosis that worried me, she sent me right to a dermatologist.

Quarterbacks count for something. But even QBs need guards to prevent them from getting sacked. But sadly, like it or not, more and more clinicians are working in an HMO environs, where the CFO says "Don't use drug X, use Y, because we get a better deal from Genentech." So who's the Big Cheese there?

What I object to in these threads is NOT the attitude of "midlevels are dangerous and don't know it" [although I'd love to see some data backing this up] but the chronic bleat of entitlement that comes from "I went to school for eight years so I'm better than them" and "I have a higher GPA and MCAT score, so I'm better than them". Then there's the meme of "How dare those peasants rise above station"! Threads like these are lousy with this type of arrogance. It seems to be worst emanating from pre-meds, and preclinical med students.

So listen to the wise Dr Tenk, who is out in the field, not in the classroom.

And for the rest of you, stop acting like you crawled out of Breitbart or r/premed.

Can you just go to back to giving advice to pre meds applying to DO school. Your qualifications as a PhD working as an administrative pony for a profitable DO school by no means qualifies you to speak about the dozens of topics you act so sagely about. The god damn nurse that sees your kids is not a pediatrician. This isn't really debatable.

 

[deafdealer]

Except the NPs were already given an extremely watered down version of Step 3 (the easiest of all of the exams) and the majority of them failed.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

I believe you're correct and it was >50% who failed. I can't find the link on this--do you have it?

 

[Lawpy]

Man, this thread is toxic...

 

[PL198]

Man, this thread is toxic...

thats probably what they thought before women could vote too

 

[cbrons]

Man, this thread is toxic...

Solid contribution

 

[Goro]

BTW:
pe·di·a·tri·cian
ˌpēdēəˈtriSHən/
noun

1. a medical practitioner specializing in children and their diseases.

Can you just go to back to giving advice to pre meds applying to DO school. Your qualifications as a PhD working as an administrative pony for a profitable DO school by no means qualifies you to speak about the dozens of topics you act so sagely about. The god damn nurse that sees your kids is not a pediatrician. This isn't really debatable.

 

[grindtime1]

http://www.webmd.com/baby/what-is-a-pediatrician#1

A pediatrician is a doctor who manages the health of your child

NPs are not doctors, thus cannot be labeled as pediatricians. You can accurately call her a mid-level or an NP, but calling her a pediatrician/doctor is incorrect.

Personally, I believe the mid-levels who regard themselves as equivalent to physicians and/or call themselves "doctors" or "physicians" when they are not even close to one are simply doing so out of an inferiority complex. You never see an MD/DO physician calling themselves an NP, PA or nurse... yet many uneducated, less intelligent folks in this thread seem to be under the false impression that PAs, NPs and nurses can be accurately labeled as doctors? Interesting...

 

[67552931811]

BTW:
pe·di·a·tri·cian
ˌpēdēəˈtriSHən/
noun

1. a medical practitioner specializing in children and their diseases.

Let's look at just a few other definitions:

"A physician who specializes in pediatrics."

"A doctor who treads babies and children."

"A pediatrician is a physician who is concerned primarily with the health, welfare, and development of children and is uniquely qualified for these endeavors by virtue of interest and initial training. This training includes 4 years of medical school education, plus an additional year or years (usually at least 3) of intensive training devoted solely to all aspects of medical care for children, adolescents, and young adults."

-The disingenuous outlook and PC agenda is pretty remarkable.

 

[cbrons]

BTW:
pe·di·a·tri·cian
ˌpēdēəˈtriSHən/
noun

1. a medical practitioner specializing in children and their diseases.

A medical practitioner is someone who practices medicine. Don't you like work at a medical school?

 

[username456789]

BTW:
pe·di·a·tri·cian
ˌpēdēəˈtriSHən/
noun

1. a medical practitioner specializing in children and their diseases.

NPs are nursing practitioners. Not medical practitioners.

You're being obtuse on purpose. I have to believe that's the case. The alternative is too depressing.

 

[SansaStarkMD]

Bump on steps to sue nursing board.

 

[YoungDoc25]

I guess neurosurgery PAs are neurosurgeons now too

 

[Mad Jack]

Warning: I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Isn't this theoretically a problem that could be solved by expanding GME, but only in underserved areas?

Expanding GME could "decrease the value of a medical degree" but statistically people practice where they do residency, so wouldn't this limit the dilution factor?

Put more doctors in underserved areas, and wouldn't you eliminate a significant driving force for midlevel encroachment?

This would also create a pool of relatively uncompetitive residency spots for IMGs and "safety" spots for US grads.

The issue is that the government has no incentive to do so. They pay NOTHING to educate NPs, while physicians cost the government over 100k per year to train during residency. Financially, they save the government billions while preserving access.

 

[Mad Jack]

BTW:
pe·di·a·tri·cian
ˌpēdēəˈtriSHən/
noun

1. a medical practitioner specializing in children and their diseases.

It would be like calling a nurse anesthetist an anesthesiologist- it is a misnomer, and quite a serious one that. You earn the -atrician or -ologist by completing residency. Even other physicians can't borrow the title if they practice in an area in which they aren't certified and trained.

 

[jw3600]

BTW:
pe·di·a·tri·cian
ˌpēdēəˈtriSHən/
noun

1. a medical practitioner specializing in children and their diseases.

You arguing with ****ing memes now? You've jumped the shark dude. You citing a laymen's definition of something does not change the fact that the word pediatrician has LEGAL connotations. It's not like I accused you of misusing a word at a holiday party.

Go back to whining about how much physicians make and keep using it as an excuse to charge ridiculous seat deposit fees.

 

[cbrons]

@Goro is trolling ya'll. I admit I fell for it at first.

A thread two months ago she called her NP "her physician" and she got a slew of entertaining responses. She is just trying to repeat that here. I see what u done did, @Goro

10/10 for good execution.

 

[DrBowtie]

Bump on steps to sue nursing board.

Since no one is talking about it, I'll chime in. Things are medical and nursing boards are run at the state level so your suggested pooling of resources are limited. Probably much better to try to crush the nursing lobby politically.

 

[Goro]

Some of you are arguing my like 14 year old, who sees the world in very black and white terms, and in particular, has an addiction to the insipid truth. An example of this is from story I heard on NPR. A girl was arguing with her brother:

Girl: You ate an entire quart of cherry ice cream!
Brother: It wasn't cherry, it was vanilla!

I don't give a rat's ass if you don't like what I call our kids clinician. If they get sick, I take them to "Nurse B", and she does a great job in taking care of them. You got a problem with that, take it up with the CEO of my local HMO.

I've never, ever complained about how much doctors make. You guys deserve it, but not because you have a huge debt from medical school, but because human lives are in your hands. If I go see User456789[sp?] because I have a suspicious black spot on my hand, s/he damn well deserves the big bucks for saving my ass from melanoma.

What I have said in the past is that I can't feel too sorry for your debt load woes, because once you finish residency, you'll be making at a minimum, 2x what I make. And if you have a problem with that, kindly show me a photo of the gun that was stuck to your head that forced you to go to med school. And this comes from a guy who loves his students and is very glad and proud of the career choices they made.

I'm done arguing here, and am bailing on this thread before it really does give me melanoma.

You arguing with ****ing memes now? You've jumped the shark dude. You citing a laymen's definition of something does not change the fact that the word pediatrician has LEGAL connotations. It's not like I accused you of misusing a word at a holiday party.

Go back to whining about how much physicians make and keep using it as an excuse to charge ridiculous seat deposit fees.

 

[SansaStarkMD]

Threads can't give you melanoma.

How do you crush the nursing lobby? Are any of these meetings they have public?

 

[grindtime1]

Dang....... Goro finally snapped after repeatedly getting owned. Honestly it was a good discussion and I enjoyed it.

But at the end of the day, just remember that an NP/PA/nurse isn't a doctor. It is simply a provable fact, not an opinion.

/thread

 

[Astra]

I don't give a rat's ass if you don't like what I call our kids clinician.

It's not that we don't like what you call your kids clinician. It's that you're blatantly wrong and are trying to defend your wrong viewpoint.

 

[Promethean]

Since no one is talking about it, I'll chime in. Things are medical and nursing boards are run at the state level so your suggested pooling of resources are limited. Probably much better to try to crush the nursing lobby politically.

Oh, good, someone finally beat me to it. I scanned through the whole thread looking for someone, anyone who would notice this fundamental issue of jurisdiction.

Talking about suing "the" Board of Nursing is like talking about lobbying "the" State Legislature. Yeah? Which one? There is one in every state, and they don't have much of anything to do with one another.

It isn't that people who are upset about midlevel encroachment don't have valid concerns/complaints. But this thread shows that most of them, at least at the med student level, have literally no concept of what exactly they are up against or how to even begin to form an effective response. If you don't understand the power structure that you are railing against, you aren't likely to get very far in pursuing your grievances.

 

[Taddy Mason]

How do you crush the nursing lobby?

Bitch and make asinine threads on an anonymous internet forum. Just look at the progress that's been made since SDN's inception taking that exact approach...

 

[Carouselambra]

Threads can't give you melanoma.

How do you crush the nursing lobby? Are any of these meetings they have public?

I don't think you'd ever crush them. Usually it's something like national nurses day where schools go to lobby at the capitol building. They are far more organized and in greater numbers than you'll ever be. I'm talking multiple schools showing up at the steps of your capitol building, several hundreds of students telling their representatives that they're important. And that's what it takes to sway your representatives. Do med schools do this? Even if they did there are far fewer med schools than there are nursing schools.

Medicine is too fractionated and it seems like once you get out into practice every doctor is either too busy or just likes to keep their head down. I think if you wanted to start somewhere you might actually want to start at the student government level. Organize events and lobby. Heck nursing schools even have a list of how to get it done: here's a link to your representative, here's the day you show up, here's the bill we want to pass.

http://www.nursing.emory.edu/student-life/clubs-organization/esna.html

I don't mean this to be offensive but you have to put up or shut up and it seems most people just want to grumble about it and do nothing instead of learn how the game is played.

I remember when I was herded along to the nursing lobby day. There were BSN and Master's nurses from Emory, Georgia State University, Mercer University, Kennesaw State University, and probably a couple of community colleges as well. Hundreds of students telling their representatives they serve an important purpose and their scope should be expanded.