Chronically overworked

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I didn’t feel bad for OP for the hours or for having to do all the notes.

I started to feel bad when it started to sound like he/she was acting as a scribe for non-teaching attendings.

I do feel bad OP is being used as unpaid labor for a literature review with zero credit.

Exactly. This is why I was so critical of the attendings in this thread who were getting on the OP about his/her complaints. It's one thing to complain about having to do work that will benefit you. It's another thing to recognize when you are being taken advantage of. Anyone who has gone through this hierarchical system of medical training knows that there is a fine line between the two instances.

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How we teach students on inpatient wards is different to how we teach student in outpatient clinics.

On inpatient wards, we usually have about 10 to 20 patients to see on a moring ward round (7 am to 11 am). The Intern or Resident is usually the one pushing the Computer-On-Wheels (COW) around and documenting the consultation. Occasionally the Intern or Resident may delegate the typing to the Student, but I usually find it's better that the Interns or Residents do them because they are paid to do that job and ironically it's more work that you have to proof read and double check what the Student has written; and funnily enough, I still occasionally have to check what notes Interns and Residents are writing on my behalf. I find it more useful that the Students watch how I talk and examine the patient, and moreover, as I point out interesting findings and key points to take away from each patient's case and get them to come back to review the patient themselves to present and discuss the case with me later that day. After ward rounds, if there are interesting procedures to be done, I usually supervise the Students (or Intern or Resident) with a procedure (e.g. Lumbar Puncture or Asicties Tap or Joint Aspirate, etc.). Then for the rest of the day I find it useful the Students hang out with the Intern and Residents to do ward jobs and get the hang of the hospital since that will be their job in a few years. I try to encourage my Interns and Residents not to use the Students as slave monkeys, but at the same time, do get them to gain some experience with doing consults, writing referrals and discharge summaries, and doing simple procedures like cannulas and catheters so that when they're Interns it's a lot easier for them then. If it's a slow day and nothing's happening, the Resident can dismiss the Students to go home or study in the library.

In outpatient clinics or private rooms, we usually see about 30 to 50 patients a day (11 am to 5 pm); so as you can see there's a high turnover of patients. I usually have one Student hang out with me, and the other Student with the Senior Resident or other Attending on with me in the clinic. I prefer to do all the documentation since medicolegally it's my consultation (and again, so I don't have to double my work by proofreading everything). I encourage Students to lead the consultation if they wish (and if the patient is happy for them to) and I just sit and observe and provide teaching through feedback and takeover the consult with the patient at the end. Again, we do minor procedures together; I find most students like to have their go at closed reductions, plastering, suturing and draining abscesses. If it's a boring day, and there's just all cold and flus, I just let them go home or go to the hospital library to study, and I'll call them back if there's anything worthwhile.

Most of my Students are happy with this arrangement. Unless any of you have any further suggestions?

You're seeing 50 patients in 6 hours? That's about 8 minutes per patient. I can't speak for you and your students, but when I was an MS 3, my most valuable experiences were those in which I was allowed to spend at least 15 minutes with a patient. I had a FM rotation where the attending allowed me to spend 25 min per followup and 50 min for new patients. That was a dream.
 
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You're seeing 50 patients in 6 hours? That's about 8 minutes per patient. I can't speak for you and your students, but when I was an MS 3, my most valuable experiences were those in which I was allowed to spend at least 15 minutes with a patient. I had a FM rotation where the attending allowed me to spend 25 min per followup and 50 min for new patients. That was a dream.

I had an IM attending do the same except he only gave me new patients. I was responsible for documentation as well and the whole experience was one of the most formative and made me most feel like a “student doctor”. I thought I loved outpatient work until I hit FM where the structure was 15 minute appointments.
 
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You're seeing 50 patients in 6 hours? That's about 8 minutes per patient. I can't speak for you and your students, but when I was an MS 3, my most valuable experiences were those in which I was allowed to spend at least 15 minutes with a patient. I had a FM rotation where the attending allowed me to spend 25 min per followup and 50 min for new patients. That was a dream.

Patient load is dependent on day-of-week and season, that is for me the busier times are Mondays and Tuesday and winter months. On a slow day I usually see about 30 patients and on a busier day up to 50 patients; this is quite standard for Family Medicine and Primary Care General Practice. I have a responsibility to my patients and the need to deliver an efficient health service, and at the same time I have a responsibility to teach my students (and junior doctors). Sometimes it's a difficult juggle, but I think I make it work. As I said, busier days when I just need to see patiens quickly and/or when it's just all mundane cases like cold/flus and just follow-up reviews of my longterm patients, I have the students stay on the wards with the residents or go do private study in the library, and just call them back for the more interesting cases; and of course they're welcome to see patients in the clinic or hospital on their own if they wish and then report back. On a side note, sometimes I find the residents to be very good teachers as well since they probably give more pragmatic advice that's more relatable to students.

Everyone has different teaching methods and arrangements; just find one that works for both the teacher and student. Also there's only so much teachers can do, sometimes students need to take intiative and seek out learning opporunities too, and I encourage mine to do that by asking if they want to do something particular that i've overlooked and I'm sure something can be faciliated to meet their learning needs.

I think the important thing to take away from this is that when all of you students and junior doctors are senior attendings in the not so far future, just remember how you would like to have been treated and taught, rather than just mimic how you were treated and taught by your predecessors.
 
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Patient load is dependent on day-of-week and season, that is for me the busier times are Mondays and Tuesday and winter months. On a slow day I usually see about 30 patients and on a busier day up to 50 patients; this is quite standard for Family Medicine and Primary Care General Practice. I have a responsibility to my patients and the need to deliver an efficient health service, and at the same time I have a responsibility to teach my students (and junior doctors). Sometimes it's a difficult juggle, but I think I make it work. As I said, busier days when I just need to see patiens quickly and/or when it's just all mundane cases like cold/flus and just follow-up reviews of my longterm patients, I have the students stay on the wards with the residents or go do private study in the library, and just call them back for the more interesting cases; and of course they're welcome to see patients in the clinic or hospital on their own if they wish and then report back. On a side note, sometimes I find the residents to be very good teachers as well since they probably give more pragmatic advice that's more relatable to students
Assuming standard 8-5 work day, no it absolutely is not standard.
 
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Pretty standard in Australia ;)

I’m not sure I get the point of the winky face. You didn’t mention at all in this thread that you are in a different country. The vast majority of people here are US med students and physicians, and the OP is a US med student. So when you say your experience is very normal, people are going to think you’re talking about the US. You should have prefaced a while ago saying you are in a different country, because your experience doesn’t generalize to the US.

It kind of seems like you intentionally left that out so you could have a gotcha moment or something. Weird.
 
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Patient load is dependent on day-of-week and season, that is for me the busier times are Mondays and Tuesday and winter months. On a slow day I usually see about 30 patients and on a busier day up to 50 patients; this is quite standard for Family Medicine and Primary Care General Practice. I have a responsibility to my patients and the need to deliver an efficient health service, and at the same time I have a responsibility to teach my students (and junior doctors). Sometimes it's a difficult juggle, but I think I make it work. As I said, busier days when I just need to see patiens quickly and/or when it's just all mundane cases like cold/flus and just follow-up reviews of my longterm patients, I have the students stay on the wards with the residents or go do private study in the library, and just call them back for the more interesting cases; and of course they're welcome to see patients in the clinic or hospital on their own if they wish and then report back. On a side note, sometimes I find the residents to be very good teachers as well since they probably give more pragmatic advice that's more relatable to students.

Everyone has different teaching methods and arrangements; just find one that works for both the teacher and student. Also there's only so much teachers can do, sometimes students need to take intiative and seek out learning opporunities too, and I encourage mine to do that by asking if they want to do something particular that i've overlooked and I'm sure something can be faciliated to meet their learning needs.

I think the important thing to take away from this is that when all of you students and junior doctors are senior attendings in the not so far future, just remember how you would like to have been treated and taught, rather than just mimic how you were treated and taught by your predecessors.
I have trouble buying the care is safe/thorough at 50/day. That’s suspicious of the system, not you pikachu
 
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I have trouble buying the care is safe/thorough at 50/day. That’s suspicious of the system, not you pikachu

Unforunately this is a consequence of a universally free public healthcare system; don't get me wrong though, unviersally available Medicare in Australia makes healthcare free for everyone which is obviously good, but it certinaly does have its pitfalls that are too long to discuss here (nor relevant to the US clinicians), but one of them is an overworked and overexhausted public health system.

Essentially, I normally have 30 slots per day, but because walk-ins turn up and there's no other clinic in town, I'm obliged to see them; ironically if I don't, they end-up going to the hospital next door, where I'm on-call half the time for admitting patients. The "free" aspect also does attract your fair share of presentations that are really benign (e.g. pop a pimple, a cold, mosquito bite, just want to talk about the weather), but it's what the people here feel they're enttitled to and for better or worse that's the service we're here to provide.

We tried to introduce a co-pay / gap payment of about $15, but that was met with complete infuritation from the community, so that didn't work out well. We've tried to have the Government to hire another physician at our clinic/hospital but apparently we're overbudget already and the boss has said no repeatedly to me. And forget about asking Medicare to increase their billing allowances.
 
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Unforunately this is a consequence of a universally free public healthcare system; don't get me wrong though, unviersally available Medicare in Australia makes healthcare free for everyone which is obviously good, but it certinaly does have its pitfalls that are too long to discuss here (nor relevant to the US clinicians), but one of them is an overworked and overexhausted public health system.

Essentially, I normally have 30 slots per day, but because walk-ins turn up and there's no other clinic in town, I'm obliged to see them; ironically if I don't, they end-up going to the hospital next door, where I'm on-call half the time for admitting patients. The "free" aspect also does attract your fair share of presentations that are really benign (e.g. pop a pimple, a cold, mosquito bite, just want to talk about the weather), but it's what the people here feel they're enttitled to and for better or worse that's the service we're here to provide.

We tried to introduce a co-pay / gap payment of about $15, but that was met with complete infuritation from the community, so that didn't work out well. We've tried to have the Government to hire another physician at our clinic/hospital but apparently we're overbudget already and the boss has said no repeatedly to me. And forget about asking Medicare to increase their billing allowances.
We spent 2 weeks in Stralia last May. When we were visiting Cairnes, I saw on tv that they were offering $185 k /yr for family docs. The report said over 50% of docs on Cairnes were Fly In Docs. Cairnes is beautiful, similar to Hawaii. Told my son, a 2nd yr family pract resident to consider spending a year or 2 doing Locums there. 185 K Australian is about 150k American. Why cant they recruit Docs to work there?
 
Unforunately this is a consequence of a universally free public healthcare system; don't get me wrong though, unviersally available Medicare in Australia makes healthcare free for everyone which is obviously good, but it certinaly does have its pitfalls that are too long to discuss here (nor relevant to the US clinicians), but one of them is an overworked and overexhausted public health system.

Essentially, I normally have 30 slots per day, but because walk-ins turn up and there's no other clinic in town, I'm obliged to see them; ironically if I don't, they end-up going to the hospital next door, where I'm on-call half the time for admitting patients. The "free" aspect also does attract your fair share of presentations that are really benign (e.g. pop a pimple, a cold, mosquito bite, just want to talk about the weather), but it's what the people here feel they're enttitled to and for better or worse that's the service we're here to provide.

We tried to introduce a co-pay / gap payment of about $15, but that was met with complete infuritation from the community, so that didn't work out well. We've tried to have the Government to hire another physician at our clinic/hospital but apparently we're overbudget already and the boss has said no repeatedly to me. And forget about asking Medicare to increase their billing allowances.
I disagree that "free for everyone" is either true or good
 
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Unforunately this is a consequence of a universally free public healthcare system; don't get me wrong though, unviersally available Medicare in Australia makes healthcare free for everyone which is obviously good, but it certinaly does have its pitfalls that are too long to discuss here (nor relevant to the US clinicians), but one of them is an overworked and overexhausted public health system.

Essentially, I normally have 30 slots per day, but because walk-ins turn up and there's no other clinic in town, I'm obliged to see them; ironically if I don't, they end-up going to the hospital next door, where I'm on-call half the time for admitting patients. The "free" aspect also does attract your fair share of presentations that are really benign (e.g. pop a pimple, a cold, mosquito bite, just want to talk about the weather), but it's what the people here feel they're enttitled to and for better or worse that's the service we're here to provide.

We tried to introduce a co-pay / gap payment of about $15, but that was met with complete infuritation from the community, so that didn't work out well. We've tried to have the Government to hire another physician at our clinic/hospital but apparently we're overbudget already and the boss has said no repeatedly to me. And forget about asking Medicare to increase their billing allowances.

would agree with the other poster that universally free anything isn't the way to go.

however, as a hospitalist in a more metro part of US, im on the other end of the spectrum - my average pt is 70+ yrs old on 10+ meds, and 2+ poorly controlled chronic conditions/noncompliant/demented.

the younger patients are likely on drugs/etoh cirrhosis/homeless/noncompliant/mass social issues....

at least i only have to see them in the hospital, its no wonder no one wants to do FM in usa. the system is setup so that its very hard to afford normal primary care stuff, while if u are completely broke, i.e. homeless, u can get treated in the hospital for free since we have to treat u and u have no money anyway.

outpt treatable conditions end up being not treated due to cost and later we treat them for free in the hospital when they are endstage , on tax payer money. i know the canadian system is more like aus and its also pretty f'ed up . seems we just can't come up with a reasonable medical system even with the astronomical amount of money spent on it in first world countries...

on a side note, there are still places where one person is simultaenously a FP and a hospitalist? i constantly feel like i need to know more even just to be a hospitalist nowadays - and i don't even do procedures, i can't imagine needing to know everything about FP-peds-gyns, hospital med, AND do procedures ?!
 
OP's continued reactions in this thread are far more telling of the long term problem than the suboptimal and very, very temporary situation they were in.
I posted this thread-so I'm going to follow it-it's simple.
If that is an issue, the bigger question is, why are you reading through a thread that isn't personally relevant to you?
My point is, this is SDN-we all follow threads-nothing wrong with it.
 
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There is so much terrible advice in this thread. Really makes me sad at the future of the profession. I would have hoped we would eventually move past the "I had to go through it, so should you!" toxic mentality of medicine at some point but it doesn't seem like we will.

Your mental health is more important than any job you'll ever have. Med school is job training. If your mental health is at stake, seek help immediately. People put medicine on this pedestal where you should literally be killing yourself because, well, I had to too. That's stupid.

We lose doctors to suicides way too much in this country. About one one per day to be exact. If a colleague reaches out for help, maybe we should hear them out and help them get the help they need, not chastise them for being "weak".

OP, SDN is a horrible place with horrible people who know not what they speak. If your preceptor is abusing you then you need to reach out to a dean immediately.

I too lament the toxic vibes given off sometimes. Fine with contrarian opinions, but not condescending comments. I appreciate your support :)
 
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Let me share a story that I think might relate:

Towards the end of college, I decided to take things a bit easy. I had worked really hard to that point and was rewarded with an admission letter to my top choice of medical school. Now was the time, I thought, to take a breather before getting back in the grind. With that in mind, I filled my schedule with classes I thought would be interesting but easier than the hard science courses I tool before. Human sexuality, indoor plants, freshwater ecology, ornithology, and birdwatching. It seemed like a cakewalk.

Birdwatching. To this day, it is the hardest course(including medical school clerkships) I have ever taken. I had to wake up at 5am most days and meticulously fill out my birding journal. I had to keep notes on the birds I saw, describe their calls, identify them, and enter them into memory. I drew sketches in my notebook to help with recall. Every evening, I listened to bird calls on tape and tried my best to remember. Each test would have two portions -- a written and a practical. In the written, we identified taxidermied birds and birds using audio recordings for our test. For the practical, we were taken out into the woods for several hours with our binoculars. There, the TA or professor would point out a bird by sight or sound and we had to ID it. The course was incredibly hard, and despite my best effort I couldn't muster better than a B.

I couldn't understand how birdwatching, of all things, could be so hard. Why did the professor make it that way? What was the point? Isn't this supposed to be a fluff class?

It took a long time, but when I thought about it later I realized that the reason I thought it was so difficult was because of my preconceived notions of what it would be. I believed it was a fluff course, so was caught entirely off guard when it wasn't. I resented the professor for making it so difficult, when in reality the course was the professor's to design and not mine. She was the expert with decades of experience, not me. She knew what skills were important to develop in birdwatching, not me.

In the same way, you think you are being treated unfairly on this rotation because you came in with your own expectations. You believed that an outpatient rotation would be an easy respite -- not because that was ever told to you by your preceptor but because of your own personal beliefs of what the rotation should be. Your preceptor knows what skills and experiences are important for you, the student, to learn and is giving you that exposure. I imagine if you had this same experience on, say, a General Surgery rotation you wouldn't feel the same way because you would have expected it to be difficult.

If you look up outpatient hours anywhere, they hover around 8-5. Some a bit earlier. Some a bit later. Some overall longer. But what I had was longer than even some inpatient services I've done, and it was because I was made to do scutwork for multiple people some of whom were not my preceptor. I just think that time would be better spent studying and reading up on patient conditions. If this were a service where we were in an underserved area, and my preceptor truly did work those long hours to serve all the patients, different story. But that isn't what happened.
 
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You have to realize that in a lot of cases, being present and engaged in what you're doing is studying for the shelf. Writing the assessment and plan - which is what most people care most about anyway - helps you reason out why you're doing what you're doing. You need to know and understand all that reasoning for the shelf. Did the attending say to do X Y or Z? If you don't understand, ask why. If they seem too busy to answer, look it up on UptoDate. That's studying right there.

As a future medical professional, you have to learn how to 1) carve out study time for yourself, i.e. on weekends or evenings and 2) learning on the fly and using each patient as a case to learn from. You're no longer a pre-clinical medical student where your only responsibility is learning from books. Now you're learning by doing, which I believe is a much more rewarding way to learn anyway.

***Also I apologize for quoting something from so long ago - I didn't realize I was only on the first page at the time.
I admit the things you bring up helped me learn and I did use UptoDate as able to. But, none of these fully replace studying from proper textbooks. And yes, although we must learn by doing, fact is there are some things I still felt were better learned by sitting down and studying (ie, asthma algorithms, GERD flowsheets)
Had it not been so-schools would assign us all to work 12-15 hour outpatient shifts...
 
We spent 2 weeks in Stralia last May. When we were visiting Cairnes, I saw on tv that they were offering $185 k /yr for family docs. The report said over 50% of docs on Cairnes were Fly In Docs. Cairnes is beautiful, similar to Hawaii. Told my son, a 2nd yr family pract resident to consider spending a year or 2 doing Locums there. 185 K Australian is about 150k American. Why cant they recruit Docs to work there?
would agree with the other poster that universally free anything isn't the way to go.

however, as a hospitalist in a more metro part of US, im on the other end of the spectrum - my average pt is 70+ yrs old on 10+ meds, and 2+ poorly controlled chronic conditions/noncompliant/demented.

the younger patients are likely on drugs/etoh cirrhosis/homeless/noncompliant/mass social issues....

at least i only have to see them in the hospital, its no wonder no one wants to do FM in usa. the system is setup so that its very hard to afford normal primary care stuff, while if u are completely broke, i.e. homeless, u can get treated in the hospital for free since we have to treat u and u have no money anyway.

outpt treatable conditions end up being not treated due to cost and later we treat them for free in the hospital when they are endstage , on tax payer money. i know the canadian system is more like aus and its also pretty f'ed up . seems we just can't come up with a reasonable medical system even with the astronomical amount of money spent on it in first world countries...

on a side note, there are still places where one person is simultaenously a FP and a hospitalist? i constantly feel like i need to know more even just to be a hospitalist nowadays - and i don't even do procedures, i can't imagine needing to know everything about FP-peds-gyns, hospital med, AND do procedures ?!

The Australian rural country life is normally quite beautiful (with the exception of the recent nightmare of bushfires). I live in a small town that grows citrus fruits (mostly oranges and lemons) and diary farmers. The climate is mostly temperate, and where I am doesn't get too hot or too cold. The problem is that it's quite isolated; lifestyle is very nice if you want to take it easy, but there's not many shops nor entertainment nor schools/universities around; it's about 4+ hours to drive or 1+ hour flight into the nearest city.

Practicing medicine in rural Australia is a fufilling and well paid career path, but challenging at times on your personal and professional life due to the isolation; albeit, you do get used to it. Because of this the Government struggles to keep doctors working in rural towns for the long term; most of us, do a brief stint for up to a decade (most shorter than this) and then return back to the city (because that's where most of our family are and most of us grew up in cities). I've continued on because I have a forgiving wife and I like practicing rural medicine. Out here even though you're just a Family Physician, you truly have to be the jack of all trades, because there are no other Specialists on site; so you pretty much run the hospital and learn to do a lot of things yourself. We do have the occasional Specialist who arrives once weekly to run a clinic or theatre list, and there's the helicopter that can retreive patients for $38,000 per trip (paid for by the taxpayer); so, as you can see, we're kind of on our own most of the time. Having said that, telehealth and other technologies to videoconference has greatly helped rural clinicians such as myself. The Government also kindly subsidies your ongoing CPD to ensure you mantain your upskills in critical care medicine (that is, all of us can procedurally sedate, intubate and ventlate, ultrasound, can manage obstertric emergencies, etc.), and some of my Family Med colleagues are accredited to do minor surgeries (such as appendectomies, caesarian sections, cholecestecomies, etc.).

The pay is more than enough: hospital pays you as a Staff Specialist with a base annual salary of $220,000 AUD ($155,000 USD) plus penalties and benefits and superannuation which usually works out to be another $80,000 AUD ($55,000 USD) per year; and in addition to this you get the a porportion of the Medicare billings per patient, so usually an average 15 minute consult would be about $38 per patient and you get 50% of that (the other 50% goes back to the district health service or corporate management of the clinic) so that's usually about another at least $175,000 AUD ($122,000 USD) in additional Medicare billings assuming an average of 30 patients per day for a year's work. For just a Family Physician that totals up to be about $475,000 AUD ($330,000 USD); that's quite a lot of coin to be content with, but you do have to work hard for it. I'm on-call for our small 30-bed hospital every second day, and I run clinic five and a half days a week. Thankfully the Government in recent years has recognised this risk of burnout and subsidised a physicians relieving program to allow regular rural physicians to rotate out with a city physician for a couple months each year, which is working out quite well so far.
 
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We spent 2 weeks in Stralia last May. When we were visiting Cairnes, I saw on tv that they were offering $185 k /yr for family docs. The report said over 50% of docs on Cairnes were Fly In Docs. Cairnes is beautiful, similar to Hawaii. Told my son, a 2nd yr family pract resident to consider spending a year or 2 doing Locums there. 185 K Australian is about 150k American. Why cant they recruit Docs to work there?
Is that sarcasm?

You won't be able to recruit an FP in America for 150k.
 
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The Australian rural country life is normally quite beautiful (with the exception of the recent nightmare of bushfires). I live in a small town that grows citrus fruits (mostly oranges and lemons) and diary farmers. The climate is mostly temperate, and where I am doesn't get too hot or too cold. The problem is that it's quite isolated; lifestyle is very nice if you want to take it easy, but there's not many shops nor entertainment nor schools/universities around; it's about 4+ hours to drive or 1+ hour flight into the nearest city.

Practicing medicine in rural Australia is a fufilling and well paid career path, but challenging at times on your personal and professional life due to the isolation; albeit, you do get used to it. Because of this the Government struggles to keep doctors working in rural towns for the long term; most of us, do a brief stint for up to a decade (most shorter than this) and then return back to the city (because that's where most of our family are and most of us grew up in cities). I've continued on because I have a forgiving wife and I like practicing rural medicine. Out here even though you're just a Family Physician, you truly have to be the jack of all trades, because there are no other Specialists on site; so you pretty much run the hospital and learn to do a lot of things yourself. We do have the occasional Specialist who arrives once weekly to run a clinic or theatre list, and there's the helicopter that can retreive patients for $38,000 per trip (paid for by the taxpayer); so, as you can see, we're kind of on our own most of the time. Having said that, telehealth and other technologies to videoconference has greatly helped rural clinicians such as myself. The Government also kindly subsidies your ongoing CPD to ensure you mantain your upskills in critical care medicine (that is, all of us can procedurally sedate, intubate and ventlate, ultrasound, can manage obstertric emergencies, etc.), and some of my Family Med colleagues are accredited to do minor surgeries (such as appendectomies, caesarian sections, cholecestecomies, etc.).

The pay is more than enough: hospital pays you as a Staff Specialist with a base annual salary of $220,000 AUD ($155,000 USD) plus penalties and benefits and superannuation which usually works out to be another $80,000 AUD ($55,000 USD) per year; and in addition to this you get the a porportion of the Medicare billings per patient, so usually an average 15 minute consult would be about $38 per patient and you get 50% of that (the other 50% goes back to the district health service or corporate management of the clinic) so that's usually about another at least $175,000 AUD ($122,000 USD) in additional Medicare billings assuming an average of 30 patients per day for a year's work. For just a Family Physician that totals up to be about $475,000 AUD ($330,000 USD); that's quite a lot of coin to be content with, but you do have to work hard for it. I'm on-call for our small 30-bed hospital every second day, and I run clinic five and a half days a week. Thankfully the Government in recent years has recognised this risk of burnout and subsidised a physicians relieving program to allow regular rural physicians to rotate out with a city physician for a couple months each year, which is working out quite well so far.
30 patients/day at 5.5 days gives you 165 patients/week. Let's assume a 48 week working year (that gives you 4 weeks off per year). 7920 patient encounters on the year.

Under my current contract and given my average billing numbers, that would give me 428k USD. And that's without the hospital admitting shifts and before any bonuses.
 
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I admit the things you bring up helped me learn and I did use UptoDate as able to. But, none of these fully replace studying from proper textbooks. And yes, although we must learn by doing, fact is there are some things I still felt were better learned by sitting down and studying (ie, asthma algorithms, GERD flowsheets)

If you could learn all of medicine by studying from textbooks, there wouldn't be a need for clinical clerkships. You could presumably just read whatever you needed to in the books. There's a balance between book learning and clinical experience and while your clerkship went too far in one direction, I would be cautious about going too far in the other direction as well. A lot of students make the mistake of caring less about patient care and more about their shelf when patient care should always be the priority.
 
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Is that sarcasm?

You won't be able to recruit an FP in America for 150k.
No sarcasm. Cairnes is like Hawaii. Tropical and beautiful. He has no debt,( thanks to Mom and Dad), no kids, might be a nice gig for a couple years. Sure, salary is not competetive, but it beats living in the Northeast or Chicagoland. Plus, Aussies are great folks. I thought it might be a nice experience while he's young.
 
If you look up outpatient hours anywhere, they hover around 8-5. Some a bit earlier. Some a bit later. Some overall longer. But what I had was longer than even some inpatient services I've done

You're only further proving my point. You had certain expectations of what this rotation should be going in, and when your expectations weren't met, you fell apart.
 
The Government also kindly subsidies your ongoing CPD to ensure you mantain your upskills in critical care medicine (that is, all of us can procedurally sedate, intubate and ventlate, ultrasound, can manage obstertric emergencies, etc.), and some of my Family Med colleagues are accredited to do minor surgeries (such as appendectomies, caesarian sections, cholecestecomies, etc.).

I'm on-call for our small 30-bed hospital every second day, and I run clinic five and a half days a week. Thankfully the Government in recent years has recognised this risk of burnout and subsidised a physicians relieving program to allow regular rural physicians to rotate out with a city physician for a couple months each year, which is working out quite well so far.

burn out is an understatement , no amount of money would make me want to take a job like this.

on a side note, if 1 physician is able to do all of that simultaneously... thats some serious super doc stuff right there
 
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The Australian rural country life is normally quite beautiful (with the exception of the recent nightmare of bushfires). I live in a small town that grows citrus fruits (mostly oranges and lemons) and diary farmers. The climate is mostly temperate, and where I am doesn't get too hot or too cold. The problem is that it's quite isolated; lifestyle is very nice if you want to take it easy, but there's not many shops nor entertainment nor schools/universities around; it's about 4+ hours to drive or 1+ hour flight into the nearest city.

Practicing medicine in rural Australia is a fufilling and well paid career path, but challenging at times on your personal and professional life due to the isolation; albeit, you do get used to it. Because of this the Government struggles to keep doctors working in rural towns for the long term; most of us, do a brief stint for up to a decade (most shorter than this) and then return back to the city (because that's where most of our family are and most of us grew up in cities). I've continued on because I have a forgiving wife and I like practicing rural medicine. Out here even though you're just a Family Physician, you truly have to be the jack of all trades, because there are no other Specialists on site; so you pretty much run the hospital and learn to do a lot of things yourself. We do have the occasional Specialist who arrives once weekly to run a clinic or theatre list, and there's the helicopter that can retreive patients for $38,000 per trip (paid for by the taxpayer); so, as you can see, we're kind of on our own most of the time. Having said that, telehealth and other technologies to videoconference has greatly helped rural clinicians such as myself. The Government also kindly subsidies your ongoing CPD to ensure you mantain your upskills in critical care medicine (that is, all of us can procedurally sedate, intubate and ventlate, ultrasound, can manage obstertric emergencies, etc.), and some of my Family Med colleagues are accredited to do minor surgeries (such as appendectomies, caesarian sections, cholecestecomies, etc.).

The pay is more than enough: hospital pays you as a Staff Specialist with a base annual salary of $220,000 AUD ($155,000 USD) plus penalties and benefits and superannuation which usually works out to be another $80,000 AUD ($55,000 USD) per year; and in addition to this you get the a porportion of the Medicare billings per patient, so usually an average 15 minute consult would be about $38 per patient and you get 50% of that (the other 50% goes back to the district health service or corporate management of the clinic) so that's usually about another at least $175,000 AUD ($122,000 USD) in additional Medicare billings assuming an average of 30 patients per day for a year's work. For just a Family Physician that totals up to be about $475,000 AUD ($330,000 USD); that's quite a lot of coin to be content with, but you do have to work hard for it. I'm on-call for our small 30-bed hospital every second day, and I run clinic five and a half days a week. Thankfully the Government in recent years has recognised this risk of burnout and subsidised a physicians relieving program to allow regular rural physicians to rotate out with a city physician for a couple months each year, which is working out quite well so far.
Thanks for your detailed post. It provides a great deal of insight as to how rural Docs practice. Not a great difference between rural Docs here in the states. Many are geographically isolated, do routine OB and c sections. On my rural med rotation, 4 GPs ran the tiny hospital. Staffed ER and did minor surgeries, appys and choles, wound repair,castings etc. Most Americas dont realize Australia has the same land mass as the US, but with only about 25 million total population. Therefore, the isolation for rural Docs is much greater.
 
Thanks for your detailed post. It provides a great deal of insight as to how rural Docs practice. Not a great difference between rural Docs here in the states. Many are geographically isolated, do routine OB and c sections. On my rural med rotation, 4 GPs ran the tiny hospital. Staffed ER and did minor surgeries, appys and choles, wound repair,castings etc. Most Americas dont realize Australia has the same land mass as the US, but with only about 25 million total population. Therefore, the isolation for rural Docs is much greater.
330k as a family doc in australia . Thats awesome..
THey dont make that in US.
 
Allowing for foreign exchange rates and rate of inflation, I think the salaries of physicians in the United States and Australia are reasonably comparable. Depending where you work, how much you work, private vs public billings, usually most Family Medicine Physicians earn around the $300 to $500 K ballpark amount.
 
You're only further proving my point. You had certain expectations of what this rotation should be going in, and when your expectations weren't met, you fell apart.

They were reasonable expectations. is it surprising I fell apart? Being made to scribe endlessly? See MassEffect's point about that
 
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Allowing for foreign exchange rates and rate of inflation, I think the salaries of physicians in the United States and Australia are reasonably comparable. Depending where you work, how much you work, private vs public billings, usually most Family Medicine Physicians earn around the $300 to $500 K ballpark amount.
If you are getting what you say you are getting for the amount of work you are describing then the salaries aren't comparable. You are working what any US physician would consider 3 FTEs (2 in clinic and 1 FTE hospitalist) and getting a little over 1 FTE of salary.
 
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No sarcasm. Cairnes is like Hawaii. Tropical and beautiful. He has no debt,( thanks to Mom and Dad), no kids, might be a nice gig for a couple years. Sure, salary is not competetive, but it beats living in the Northeast or Chicagoland. Plus, Aussies are great folks. I thought it might be a nice experience while he's young.
Hawaii is also like Hawaii, and it pays a normal salary.
 
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No sarcasm. Cairnes is like Hawaii. Tropical and beautiful. He has no debt,( thanks to Mom and Dad), no kids, might be a nice gig for a couple years. Sure, salary is not competetive, but it beats living in the Northeast or Chicagoland. Plus, Aussies are great folks. I thought it might be a nice experience while he's young.

To each their own. I'd rather work in the northeast or Chicagoland, get a decent salary and spend it in Hawaii or some other tropical place rather than working in some rural village where you have to do everything for yourself and get paid next to nothing.

You're only further proving my point. You had certain expectations of what this rotation should be going in, and when your expectations weren't met, you fell apart.

The OP's expectations were on-target. This rotation was not okay. When there's so much literature out there about the causes of burn out, most prominently, EMR and paperwork, asking an MS 3 to do it for you AND your colleague attendings is completely out of line.
 
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The OP's expectations were on-target. This rotation was not okay. When there's so much literature out there about the causes of burn out, most prominently, EMR and paperwork, asking an MS 3 to do it for you AND your colleague attendings is completely out of line.
Asking an MS 3 to do the charting on the patients they see is not out of line.

Having them basically just scribing for your partners is.
 
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If you are getting what you say you are getting for the amount of work you are describing then the salaries aren't comparable. You are working what any US physician would consider 3 FTEs (2 in clinic and 1 FTE hospitalist) and getting a little over 1 FTE of salary.

Well one of the reasons why we have trouble getting people to work rurally is that physicians working in urban suburbs or cities make the same amount with less patient load and on-call responsibilities, plus they get to stay in a city. Rural medicine is isolated and hard work but there's handful of us who enjoy it so that's why we're out here. I personally might do this for another decade and then move back to the city eventually so we can be closer to our children once they finish university and start having grandkids soon.
 
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Asking an MS 3 to do the charting on the patients they see is not out of line.

Having them basically just scribing for your partners is.

I disagree. I think it is out of line. Asking an MS3 to do more than 5-10 notes in a day, regardless of how many patients seen, is too much. When they're bogged down in note-writing, they're not learning.
 
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I disagree. I think it is out of line. Asking an MS3 to do more than 5-10 notes in a day, regardless of how many patients seen, is too much. When they're bogged down in note-writing, they're not learning.
Interesting. I presume your training in primary care makes you well versed in medical education in that field.

And you're wrong, note writing is a great time for learning. You learn to organize your thoughts, work through what your plan is and why you're doing what you're doing.
 
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I disagree. I think it is out of line. Asking an MS3 to do more than 5-10 notes in a day, regardless of how many patients seen, is too much. When they're bogged down in note-writing, they're not learning.

Note writing isn't mind numbing for an MS3 like it is for physicians who have done thousands of notes. It can be great learning for students just starting out.

Play how you practice. It's not unreasonable for a student to do more than 10 notes per day since they will be doing more than double that in practice.

The above is not an endorsement on what the preceptor was doing. I noted what I thought about that in an earlier post. However, students can definitely learn from writing notes, from writing a lot of notes.
 
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Everything in moderation: I think there are definitely benefits with having students (and junior docs) type notes and practice documentation in clinic and on ward rounds. At the same time, I wouldn't expect them to be a scribe all the time and to do that job in-excess and instead of experiencing other learning opporunities. It's up to a hopefully fair and reasonable clincial supervisor to determine this.
 
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Interesting. I presume your training in primary care makes you well versed in medical education in that field.

So only those who did a primary care residency get to have an opinion on this?

And you're wrong, note writing is a great time for learning. You learn to organize your thoughts, work through what your plan is and why you're doing what you're doing.

Just because you disagree does not make me wrong. No one said you don't learn to organize your thoughts, work through your plan, and why you're doing what you're doing (though let's get real, the majority of the time you're clicking boxes in a template). But when a student has 30 notes to do at the end of the day, I guarantee you he/she is not doing that in most cases. He/she is trying to get through the notes so he/she can eventually go to bed that night.

Note writing isn't mind numbing for an MS3 like it is for physicians who have done thousands of notes. It can be great learning for students just starting out.

As long as they're not bombarded with notes.

Play how you practice. It's not unreasonable for a student to do more than 10 notes per day since they will be doing more than double that in practice

Oh come on. You don't come out of the womb as an attending. You learn efficiency in med school and residency, like everything else and you shouldn't expect an MS3 to be as efficient as an attending.
 
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As long as they're not bombarded with notes.

I don't disagree.

Oh come on. You don't come out of the womb as an attending. You learn efficiency in med school and residency, like everything else and you shouldn't expect an MS3 to be as efficient as an attending.

I don't consider an MS3 doing 11 notes in a day is expecting "an MS3 to be as efficient as an attending." ??? Do you? You are the one who said 5-10 notes was bogging a student down so much that he could not learn. But at the same time, you say "you learn efficiency in med school and residency"? When? Where? How if it's not seeing a bunch of patients and documenting as such? I would argue medical students know virtually nothing about efficiency. I would also argue that writing some notes isn't even just about learning efficiency but reconciling all the pieces of the patient's care. Having them do less than half (third?) of what an attending does can give some taste of it though. One does not learn efficiency unless one is stretched a bit.

Again, this is not to say that what the preceptor of the OP did was appropriate by any means, but you and I have very different thoughts on what can be educational for a student.
 
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So only those who did a primary care residency get to have an opinion on this?



Just because you disagree does not make me wrong. No one said you don't learn to organize your thoughts, work through your plan, and why you're doing what you're doing (though let's get real, the majority of the time you're clicking boxes in a template). But when a student has 30 notes to do at the end of the day, I guarantee you he/she is not doing that in most cases. He/she is trying to get through the notes so he/she can eventually go to bed that night.
Of course you can have an opinion, it's just not worth much.

Same way I can have an opinion on the best way to structure a psych rotation, but you (generic you, not you specifically) would be foolish to put much weight in it.
 
I don't disagree.



I don't consider an MS3 doing 11 notes in a day is expecting "an MS3 to be as efficient as an attending." ??? Do you? You are the one who said 5-10 notes was bogging a student down so much that he could not learn. But at the same time, you say "you learn efficiency in med school and residency"? When? Where? How if it's not seeing a bunch of patients and documenting as such? I would argue medical students know virtually nothing about efficiency. I would also argue that writing some notes isn't even just about learning efficiency but reconciling all the pieces of the patient's care. Having them do less than half (third?) of what an attending does can give some taste of it though. One does not learn efficiency unless one is stretched a bit.

I guess that depends on your opinion of the role of an MS3. I think they're there to learn medicine and little by little learn efficiency. But doing a large number of notes (and FYI, I didn't say 5-10 notes was bogging them down; I said more than that is what bogs them down) after a full day in clinic is taking time away from reading, reviewing the literature, reviewing the patient's medical record, studying for their shelf exam, etc. You have zebras coming through? Absolutely, the med student should be seeing them and writing notes accordingly. But writing 18 notes on cold follow-ups is very rarely educational.

Of course you can have an opinion, it's just not worth much.

Same way I can have an opinion on the best way to structure a psych rotation, but you (generic you, not you specifically) would be foolish to put much weight in it.

Except I wasn't talking about how to structure a primary care rotation. I was talking about excessive note-writing for an MS-3 and I do think I'm qualified to speak on the subject, having been an MS-3 myself and also a primary care intern with direct supervision over MS-3s. If you're attaching worth to the opinion of only primary care attendings on this subject, you'll have to discount 99% of this thread.
 
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I guess that depends on your opinion of the role of an MS3. I think they're there to learn medicine and little by little learn efficiency. But doing a large number of notes (and FYI, I didn't say 5-10 notes was bogging them down; I said more than that is what bogs them down) after a full day in clinic is taking time away from reading, reviewing the literature, reviewing the patient's medical record, studying for their shelf exam, etc. You have zebras coming through? Absolutely, the med student should be seeing them and writing notes accordingly. But writing 18 notes on cold follow-ups is very rarely educational.

Yes, I meant to write "more than 5-10." I mistakenly did leave that out. However, I also started my post by saying "11." You started bringing out numbers, and I don't want to argue about if 10 or 12 or 15 notes is the right number.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that students are not there to learn medicine? Nobody active in this thread now is arguing the purpose of the student's presence. The discussion is how to help them learn and what to learn.

I have not said anywhere that "writing 18 notes on cold follow-ups is very rarely educational." You keep talking past me. All I have been trying to address is this post.

I disagree. I think it is out of line. Asking an MS3 to do more than 5-10 notes in a day, regardless of how many patients seen, is too much. When they're bogged down in note-writing, they're not learning.

I think the disconnect here is the following: in this thread, the primary focus of some has been the student being a student while for others, it was the student learning to be a doctor. Reading vs seeing patients. Shelf exam vs writing notes. Thing is, it's all important, but if you're on a rotation for primary care, learning how to be a PCP should take priority while the chance is to be had. I would take issue if clinic work was spilling over after everyone else is gone, but a student should be focused on seeing patients, writing notes, learning from the preceptor, maybe having some time to look things up themselves as well during the day and can then do shelf study, etc after 5 pm.
 
Yes, I meant to write "more than 5-10." I mistakenly did leave that out. However, I also started my post by saying "11." You started bringing out numbers, and I don't want to argue about if 10 or 12 or 15 notes is the right number.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that students are not there to learn medicine? Nobody active in this thread now is arguing the purpose of the student's presence. The discussion is how to help them learn and what to learn.

I have not said anywhere that "writing 18 notes on cold follow-ups is very rarely educational." You keep talking past me. All I have been trying to address is this post.



I think the disconnect here is the following: in this thread, the primary focus of some has been the student being a student while for others, it was the student learning to be a doctor. Reading vs seeing patients. Shelf exam vs writing notes. Thing is, it's all important, but if you're on a rotation for primary care, learning how to be a PCP should take priority while the chance is to be had. I would take issue if clinic work was spilling over after everyone else is gone, but a student should be focused on seeing patients, writing notes, learning from the preceptor, maybe having some time to look things up themselves as well during the day and can then do shelf study, etc after 5 pm.

You're right, let's take numbers out of it. The bottom line is, the students should not have to be bogged down in notes. After a certain number (and we can argue what that number should be some other time), it's diminishing returns. I also have a different take on medical student rotations. When students rotate with me, I don't believe they're there to learn how to be a psychiatrist. I believe they're there to learn what psychiatry is and to learn to identify common psychiatric disorders they'll encounter in every field and how to treat those disorders. When they're on surgery, I believe they're there to learn what surgery is all about and to learn common surgical issues they'll encounter in other fields. I think the same for primary care. In my opinion, they're not there to learn how to be a PCP. They're there to learn about primary care and the complaints that bring patients to the PCP office as well as common health screenings, DM, HTN, HLD, etc management, preventative care, when to refer, etc. Writing notes along the way is certainly educational, but should not take up the majority of the time nor should the student feel overwhelmed by the task.
 
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