Chiropractor = Physiotherapist?

[jakeislove]

cmd,

With all due respect; your estimate is BS. You can literally find thousands of people who have died due to medical therapy/mistakes but less than 200 from chiropractic.

Chiropractors are not physicians and there's no legitimate comparison between their education and MDs. That being said: It's relatively safe.

fb11,

PT isn't rocket surgery. It's indicated in many situations but kind of silly to assume the two professions are typically in direct competition. Generally speaking, I'd rather a PT see someone who needed rehab or corrective exercises. PTs will typically take more time, stay within the original referral's scope, and not disagree with the referring MD's diagnosis.

jjj,

What someone can advertise is a matter of individual state law, not opinion.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[jjjDPT]

jjj,

What someone can advertise is a matter of individual state law, not opinion.

Yes, precisely my point. In addition, my opinion is that they should not advertise physio/physical therapy.

 

[jakeislove]

Yes, precisely my point. In addition, my opinion is that they should not advertise physio/physical therapy.

Plenty of DCs use physiotherapy and PT (meaning exercise, i.e, stability training) as a part of their treatment plans. Generally, I'd argue it's a legitimate way to advertise additional services.

^ Being said: If someone needed rehab (from the ground up), I feel a PT would be better. If we're talking ultrasound, stim, or something simple there's probably no appreciable difference... other than the chiro trying to sell a bunch of vitamins or treat the person 4X/week over 63 years.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

cmd,

With all due respect; your estimate is BS. You can literally find thousands of people who have died due to medical therapy/mistakes but less than 200 from chiropractic.

Chiropractors are not physicians and there's no legitimate comparison between their education and MDs. That being said: It's relatively safe.

fb11,

PT isn't rocket surgery. It's indicated in many situations but kind of silly to assume the two professions are typically in direct competition. Generally speaking, I'd rather a PT see someone who needed rehab or corrective exercises. PTs will typically take more time, stay within the original referral's scope, and not disagree with the referring MD's diagnosis.

jjj,

What someone can advertise is a matter of individual state law, not opinion.

You do not have a clue what you're talking about. Corrective exercise? What exactly is that? Good PT's will disagree often with a referring physician diagnosis because they are often wrong or irrelevant. The majority of physicians are incompetent and ignorant with regard to physical therapy. Good Physical therapists make their own diagnoses, it's called a physical therapy diagnosis. And the physical therapy plan of care is based on the physical therapists assessment. Staying within scope of practice is not a problem in the profession of physical therapy but it is a very big problem in medicine and chiropractic. Case in point being the former thinking they are qualified to order or prescribe physical therapy and the latter claiming to practice it, neither having the training to do so.

On another note, I don't care to read what a lamebrain ignorant medical student thinks about PT. You should know better than to try to school a PT about physical therapy.

 

[jakeislove]

You do not have a clue what you're talking about. Corrective exercise? What exactly is that? Good PT's will disagree often with a referring physician diagnosis because they are often wrong or irrelevant. The majority of physicians are incompetent and ignorant with regard to physical therapy. Good Physical therapists make their own diagnoses, it's called a physical therapy diagnosis. And the physical therapy plan of care is based on the physical therapists assessment. Staying within scope of practice is not a problem in the profession of physical therapy but it is a very big problem in medicine and chiropractic. Case in point being the former thinking they are qualified to order or prescribe physical therapy and the latter claiming to practice it, neither having the training to do so.

On another note, I don't care to read what a lamebrain ignorant medical student thinks about PT. You should know better than to try to school a PT about physical therapy.

I've met and worked with a ton of DCs/PTs.

None of them felt it was rocket surgery.

Apparently you're special.

Sorry for my ignorance.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

I think you're making stuff up in your head. I.e. You know little to nothing about physical therapy, you don't "see" much when you observe because you don't know what you're looking at. Then you make up that what you think is what others think. WYSIATI.

A DC knows little to nothing about physical therapy or physiotherapy, they have no legitimate or real training, so their opinion to the complexity is irrelevant.

I've not come across many PT's in my career who argue that physical therapy is complex either, but this proves nothing. Physical therapy is extremely complex when it is thorough and quality (i.e. When real and not harmed by physician abuse).

 

[cdmguy]

And what do you do when you have a bastard alternative field that opposes informed consent, refuses to correct itself and improve and actively harms patients for profit? From a public health standpoint how can the public be protected? Shouldn't this merit mandatory active supervision from DPT providers, dissolution of chiropractic licensing boards, conversion of willing DC programs to DPT programs and closure of the rest.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...s-stroke-not-a-risk-of-cervical-manipulation/

 

[drjohndc]

Here's one source that is in line with my stroke estimate.

International Chiropractors Association
"The process of chiropractic adjustment is a safe, efficient procedure which is performed nearly one million times every working day in the United States."

That would mean 1-to-3 people each working day in the United States have a stroke caused by chiropractic, or 260-to-780 people each year, or 2,600-to-7,800 per decade.

-http://www.chiropracticstroke.com/victims.php​

Also read the victim stories.

I am a 36 yr. old mother of 3 girls ages 7, 5, and 3. 2 yrs. ago I had a stroke after a neck manipulation. I actually went in for a shoulder pain...
Surgery was an option but only if I wanted to take the risk of 75% chance of dying on the table. At that point I still could not walk, eat, or basically think well. But, at least I could swallow a little. That was an improvement. I felt like an old lady (I was in a room with a 98 yr. old) and basically the whole wing was full of older patients. But, stubborn me tried walking with a walker and I refused to use anything but the toilet (so I had to get up). I remember my mom asking my neurologist right before they sent me to rehab (which I did not get to decide on but my family had to make the decision) would I ever have another stroke. He told her not unless I went and had another manipulation.
-http://www.chiropracticstroke.com/victims.brenda.php
​

This woman was not given informed consent that manipulation of her neck for shoulder pain of all things could give her a stroke. Chiropractors should be locked up not licensed.

Don't be gullible and believe everything you read. It's strange how she didn't go to an osteopath and have a stroke only to a chiropractor. It's also strange how she started off by saying she's the mother of three girls, 7, 5, and 3.2 years.

Say I have a great idea! Someone show me victims of osteopathic manipulations instead of chiropractors just for a moment!

 

[cdmguy]

Rambling, off topic post.

 

[jakeislove]

I think you're making stuff up in your head. I.e. You know little to nothing about physical therapy, you don't "see" much when you observe because you don't know what you're looking at. Then you make up that what you think is what others think. WYSIATI.

A DC knows little to nothing about physical therapy or physiotherapy, they have no legitimate or real training, so their opinion to the complexity is irrelevant.

I've not come across many PT's in my career who argue that physical therapy is complex either, but this proves nothing. Physical therapy is extremely complex when it is thorough and quality (i.e. When real and not harmed by physician abuse).

Your knowledge of DC training and education is impressive.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

Chiropractic school:
Easy to get into
Hard to fail out of
No physical therapist professors
No use of physical therapy texts
No accreditation from a physical therapy institution
No real training in physical therapy or physiotherapy
No exposure outside OP NMSK

Clearly I know a lot more than you with regard to chiropractor training and physical therapy. It's almost as if you don't see that chiropractor claims to provide physiotherapy or physical therapy is akin to them claiming to provide medicine (practice medicine) with fake classes with unqualified instructors and different material than would be taught legitimately. Chiropractors are qualified in some respects to provide rehabilitation, but this does not make it physical therapy. Physical therapy and physiotherapy are by definition those services provided by and under the supervision of a physical therapist or physiotherapist. Also, NP's are qualified to prescribe some medication, order tests, refer, etc, but are NOT qualified to provide medicine (practice medicine) as this is a different profession, and the training differences (to practice medicine) are laughable.

Overall still I am not impressed by chiropractor education regardless. Poor admission standards, seclusion from nearly all other healthcare professions, no public programs. Physical therapy school is among the most competitive, among all other disciplines, classes are often interdisciplinary, exposure to far more than OP NMSK, public schools are common and in some of the best universities, etc.

 

[jakeislove]

You assume a lot.

 

[truthseeker]

What is he assuming? If you get past five0boy's bluster, he makes good points generally with obvious passion and not much of a civility filter.

You going to have to decide where you refer your msk patients some day. Will you send them to PT or to chiropractic. To me it seems like a clear choice, but with you it doesn't seem so.

It is really important that you know the difference between the two professions if you are going to help your patients make an informed choice.

Defend chiropractic.

 

[cdmguy]

This gets funnier and funnier. It's like listening to Tom Cruise defend Scientology.

 

[drjohndc]

You do not have a clue what you're talking about. Corrective exercise? What exactly is that? Good PT's will disagree often with a referring physician diagnosis because they are often wrong or irrelevant. The majority of physicians are incompetent and ignorant with regard to physical therapy. Good Physical therapists make their own diagnoses, it's called a physical therapy diagnosis. And the physical therapy plan of care is based on the physical therapists assessment. Staying within scope of practice is not a problem in the profession of physical therapy but it is a very big problem in medicine and chiropractic. Case in point being the former thinking they are qualified to order or prescribe physical therapy and the latter claiming to practice it, neither having the training to do so.

On another note, I don't care to read what a lamebrain ignorant medical student thinks about PT. You should know better than to try to school a PT about physical therapy.

How do you not know what corrective exercises are?

 

[PTMattI]

This is hilarious.....too add more fuel to the fire, check out the requirements to become `physiotherapist` in the NCBE http://www.nbce.org/examinations/written/physiotherapy/ this pales in comparison to the PT board exam haha

 

[drjohndc]

This is hilarious.....too add more fuel to the fire, check out the requirements to become `physiotherapist` in the NCBE http://www.nbce.org/examinations/written/physiotherapy/ this pales in comparison to the PT board exam haha

We already know that physiotherapy is not Physical Therapy. Physical Therapists are more trained than Chiropractors in that aspect but Chiropractors use physiotherapy along with manipulation, nutrition, and life style to heal injuries. It works like a charm.

 

[PTMattI]

If chiropractors already "know" this then how come there are several where I live who offer "Physical Therapy" in their practice through their advertisements? This only confuses the public

 

[truthseeker]

We already know that physiotherapy is not Physical Therapy. Physical Therapists are more trained than Chiropractors in that aspect but Chiropractors use physiotherapy along with manipulation, nutrition, and life style to heal injuries. It works like a charm.

In some states I believe that the term "physiotherapy" is equated with "physical therapy" and is a protected term. I know that in Australia and I believe in the UK they use the term physiotherapy to specifically mean physical therapy.

To me it is an insult that anyone claims to do what I do without my credentials. If I were to do a manipulation on someone, what would the chiro's say if I said to my patient that I was doing chiropractic? Same thing.

 

[jjjDPT]

If chiropractors already "know" this then how come there are several where I live who offer "Physical Therapy" in their practice through their advertisements? This only confuses the public

Report this to your state's APTA chapter and they will likely be successful in having those advertisements removed. Unless a PT works with those chiro's.

Physical Therapy and Physiotherapy are protected terms.

 

[truthseeker]

I did this several years ago in MN and the chiro apologized, blamed his marketing company. Actually had it on all of his business cards, advertisements etc . . .

I interviewed a former employee of his for a secretary/receptionist position and she told me that she was in charge of the physical therapy that they did there.

Bottom line is they will get away with whatever they can unless someone calls them on it.

 

[cdmguy]

If chiropractors already "know" this then how come there are several where I live who offer "Physical Therapy" in their practice through their advertisements? This only confuses the public

Most likely they are targeting the personal injury market and need to confer as much credibility as possible so prospectives don't realize they are dealing with alt med providers. Do the ads omit "chiropractor" and "DC"? That's a good sign you're dealing with one of these.

 

[PTMattI]

I am afraid that where I live (in MD) chiros are allowed to advertise "Physical Therapy" if they pass their own certification / exam which I linked to above. I may be wrong however.

 

[PTMattI]

Here is one example: http://www.integratedssr.com/chiropractor-olney-md/ the DC is not a PT , yet offers "Physical Therapy" under his services. On his facebook page he even identifies himself as PT! https://www.facebook.com/integratedssr/info?tab=overview

 

[jjjDPT]

What a quack. Report him to the MDPTA and see what they can do to stop these false claims by Olney and protect area patients.

 

[PTMattI]

I did just notify my state chapter of this...hopefully they will do something...something tells me he is not allowed to identify himself as a physical therapist.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

http://www.apta.org/TermProtection/StateLaws/SummaryChart/

Best: Arizona, D.C., Delaware, Louisiana
Worst: North Carolina, Georgia

Quite a bit of variance, similar arbitrary nonsense as direct access law.

 

[PTMattI]

Here is the email correspondence:
"Hello, my name is Matt xxxxxxx. I am currently a 3rd year student at Mercer University in Atlanta, GA and I am set to to graduate in May. I am originally from Montgomery County, MD and I intend to practice in MD after graduation and passing the boards. My APTA number is xxxxxx. I have a question / complaint which I hope one of you could address. I have noticed more and more chiropractors in and around my hometown (Olney) advertising that they perform "Physical Therapy" and sometimes even identifying themselves as "Physical Therapists" through their advertising: https://www.facebook.com/integratedssr?pnref=lhc as far as I can tell, this chiropractor in particular (this is just one example) does not have a physical therapy degree. Is it legal for him to identify himself as such and offer physical therapy services?I feel that this sort of practices does nothing but confuse the public and infringe on our scope of practice. So I thought I would bring it to your attention if it has not been already. Thank you."




Response:

"Matt,

The simple and easy of it was back in the 1940s when PT was being licensed it was a deal that was negotiated to get our licensure. The chiro must take an added exam that the chiro board administers and if passed the chiro achieves PT privileges and can then can advertise PT.

A task force was formed to discuss the issue and plan to move them out of our practice act but it is really a complicated issue for getting it through.
Call me if further questions anytime. "

I then asked if this means they can IDENTIFY themselves as "Physical therapists" which is what this guy is doing. One thing to advertise PT services, another thing to identify oneself as PT

 

[truthseeker]

ask the guy if you can just call yourself a chiropractor and see if the %$#^% hits the fan. I helped a kid get his contact out from being stuck under his eyelid at a basketball game, I must be an optometrist. I took some claritin this morning, I am a pharmacist. blah blah blah.

Its an embarrassment for the MD PT association to NOT have this fixed by now.

One of the problems is that PT is NOT ultrasound, electrical stim, traction, and massage. Too many people and providers believe that defines what we do.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

So I just did a little research comparing the number of chiropractors in each state (from data.bls.gov) with state population and number of hits on bing.com with the search term "insert state chiropractic physiotherapy." I compared arizona, d.c., delaware, louisiana, north carolina, and georgia. The worst was DELAWARE, 80 chiros, 935k pop, 3.6 million hits. This converts to a ratio of population per hit of .26, in other words for every one person in delaware there is up to 4 illegal chiropractic physiotherapy websites. By ratio it was: delaware .26, d.c. 1.12, louisiana 1.4, arizona 2.8, georgia 3.74, north carolina 4.125. In other words the laws in these respective states do nothing in the way of term protection, actually the opposite, actually encourage illegal claims/advertising. Not surprising given zero monitoring for this type of behavior and not much better enforcement by authorities when exposed.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

Hmm but it doesn't make sense for delaware chiropractors to each make 45,000 webpages (3.6 mil / 80 = 45000). Or does it? (Insert dr evil pinky finger here). I wonder if the scumbag delaware chiropractor association has something to do with all the garbage websites.

Non chiropractor: hey did you hear its illegal for chiropractors to advertise physiotherapy in delaware?

Chiropractor: nuh uh, see look at my website it talks all about physiotherapy and PT too, oh and here's where it talks about my certificate in physiotherapy. I love PT so much and hey let's be honest, it isn't rocket surgery.

 

[cdmguy]

So I just did a little research comparing the number of chiropractors in each state (from data.bls.gov) with state population and number of hits on bing.com with the search term "insert state chiropractic physiotherapy." I compared arizona, d.c., delaware, louisiana, north carolina, and georgia. The worst was DELAWARE, 80 chiros, 935k pop, 3.6 million hits. This converts to a ratio of population per hit of .26, in other words for every one person in delaware there is up to 4 illegal chiropractic physiotherapy websites. By ratio it was: delaware .26, d.c. 1.12, louisiana 1.4, arizona 2.8, georgia 3.74, north carolina 4.125. In other words the laws in these respective states do nothing in the way of term protection, actually the opposite, actually encourage illegal claims/advertising. Not surprising given zero monitoring for this type of behavior and not much better enforcement by authorities when exposed.

How about creating a catchy and memorable public relations ad campaign service warning patients about the disadvantages of chiropractic PT versus the advantages of physical therapy? This can be done on a national level with individual PTs contributing to get customized pamphlets and newspaper inserts that they can pass on to patients. I think PTs would love this as it would give them a strong standardized response to quackery and evidence based reasons why people should use PT over chiropractic.

ie.

Disadvantages of chiropractors

• Far fewer hours of classroom training in PT.
• No patient experience requirement for PT.
• Unscientific belief system that encourages dependency.
• Unnecessary stroke risk

etc.

Flyers and loaner DVDs (with PT office information) could be:
"Why are modern PTs superior to chiropractors"
"Manipulation and stroke: chiropractic's dirty secret"

Local PTs could get customized newspaper ad templates.

I think this would be a huge success. If anyone would be interested in partnering up to start a PT company to create this type of material as a DC I would be happy to co-author as a skeptical chiropractor of 17 years experience.

As patients become better informed PT associations could start to lobby to demand more accountability against DC abuses. However, it has to start with education.

Don't think individual DCs aren't doing this to your profession en masse.
It's about time garbage like this was rebutted:

The most obvious difference between doctors of chiropractic (DC's) and physical therapists (PT's) is virtually all DC's utilize some form of manipulation to restore joint function, whereas only a very small percentage of PT's utilize manipulation and virtually none of them have nearly as much experience "adjusting" patients or, the training to determine how and when to adjust for ultimate results go beyond just pain relief. Another very important difference is the education curriculum of chiropractors includes many class hours in physiology, pathology, clinical examination, radiology, laboratory testing and interpretation and diagnosis - these are not included in the PT educational process.
-Advantage Health and Wellness (a DC)

 

[jakeislove]

How about creating a catchy and memorable public relations ad campaign service warning patients about the disadvantages of chiropractic PT versus the advantages of physical therapy? This can be done on a national level with individual PTs contributing to get customized pamphlets and newspaper inserts that they can pass on to patients. I think PTs would love this as it would give them a strong standardized response to quackery and evidence based reasons why people should use PT over chiropractic.

ie.

Disadvantages of chiropractors

• Far fewer hours of classroom training in PT.
• No patient experience requirement for PT.
• Unscientific belief system that encourages dependency.
• Unnecessary stroke risk

etc.

Flyers and loaner DVDs (with PT office information) could be:
"Why are modern PTs superior to chiropractors"
"Manipulation and stroke: chiropractic's dirty secret"

Local PTs could get customized newspaper ad templates.

I think this would be a huge success. If anyone would be interested in partnering up to start a PT company to create this type of material as a DC I would be happy to co-author as a skeptical chiropractor of 17 years experience.

As patients become better informed PT associations could start to lobby to demand more accountability against DC abuses. However, it has to start with education.

Don't think individual DCs aren't doing this to your profession en masse.
It's about time garbage like this was rebutted:

Did Chiropractic touch you in the no no place without permission?

I've never witnessed such an intense case of butthurt related to the profession.

 

[PTMattI]

Maybe if chiropractors didnt make such ridiculous claims and masquerade to be physical therapists people wouldnt be so critical.

 

[PTMattI]

ask the guy if you can just call yourself a chiropractor and see if the %$#^% hits the fan. I helped a kid get his contact out from being stuck under his eyelid at a basketball game, I must be an optometrist. I took some claritin this morning, I am a pharmacist. blah blah blah.

Its an embarrassment for the MD PT association to NOT have this fixed by now.

One of the problems is that PT is NOT ultrasound, electrical stim, traction, and massage. Too many people and providers believe that defines what we do.

This was the final response I got in the email exchange:

Me: "
Thank you for the clarification. So to make sure I understand, he has PT privileges and can advertise PT...this shouldn't include being able to identify oneself as a Physical Therapist, should it?
Because that is exactly what this one particular chiropractor is doing on his Facebook page...right on the main banner under the name of his clinic."

Response:
"He has PT privileges now complaint would be to the Board of Chiro not our PT Board of Examiners. We have no governing authority over them even though they follow our Act. " What would be the next course of action then? The emails were with the "Director for Practice" from the MD APTA

 

[jakeislove]

What is he assuming? If you get past five0boy's bluster, he makes good points generally with obvious passion and not much of a civility filter.

He's assuming to know more about chiropractic education than me. Without sharing too much.... that's highly unlikely.

I don't feel he's uncivil and appreciate the passion. It's just arrogant to assume you're always the smartest person in the room.

You going to have to decide where you refer your msk patients some day. Will you send them to PT or to chiropractic. To me it seems like a clear choice, but with you it doesn't seem so.

It would depend on practice makeup/dynamic but, 90% of the time I'd probably refer to a PT. If someone needed rehab? PT.

For simple mechanical low back pain or a comp case that would take too much time. I'd be comfortable with a DC that did IMEs, schedule loss of use, apportionment, blah blah blah, and all the other time-consuming stuff that some of those patients need.

It is really important that you know the difference between the two professions if you are going to help your patients make an informed choice.

I'd simply ask what they were comfortable with.

Defend chiropractic.

Not my job.

 

[cdmguy]

>He's assuming to know more about chiropractic education than me. Without sharing too much.... that's highly unlikely.

Obviously you've been indoctrinated in chiropractic somehow, most likely from having a DC family member. It's the old "only a pimp can be an expert in prostitution" argument (as opposed to a sociologist). Sorry but for people outside the chiropractic educational cult who see what is really going on it's obvious this is just conceit and bluster. 120 hours just isn't a realistic amount of time to learn spinal rehab, ergonomics plus modalities and no patient experience requirement? That's just sad.

 

[truthseeker]

Jake,

I disagree, it is your job. You will be responsible for the care and safety of your patients. If you wish to refer appropriately, you should understand and really be fluent with the skills and training of the providers you refer to. It IS your job to be able to defend WHY you referred to one provider or profession vs another.

For example: Do you think you should know when to refer to an optometrist or an opthamologist? They both are doctoral level trained, they both treat the eye/vision. do you have a different level of respect for the rigor of their training?

Probably.

I submit that the filter to get into opthamology school (med school, then residency then boards) is a little (sarcasm font) more fine than the one to get into optometry school.

The same goes for DC school vs PT school. GPA (agreed, not the only measure of academic ability but one of the few with a number that is widely publicized as an entrance criterion) requrements are vastly different between being able to be admitted to a DC program vs a PT program.

You absolutely need to know the difference between the professions.

 

[cdmguy]

Jake,

I submit that the filter to get into opthamology school (med school, then residency then boards) is a little (sarcasm font) more fine than the one to get into optometry school.

The same goes for DC school vs PT school. GPA (agreed, not the only measure of academic ability but one of the few with a number that is widely publicized as an entrance criterion) requrements are vastly different between being able to be admitted to a DC program vs a PT program.

You absolutely need to know the difference between the professions.

Comparing chiropractic to optometry is a terrible analogy because optometry is based in science while chirop is based on pseudoscience. You can't gloss over this. It is the core foundation of everything that is unique about chirop. Chirop uses false, outdated biomechanics, treats illusory palpation findings that it assumes are joint contractures with a treatment that is known to be ineffective for releasing joints-a practice given up by the rest of the science based manipulating fields. Then after all this craziness it demands legitimacy. As long as chiropractic schools are allowed to indoctrinate students with false information about the field we can expect misinformed idiots continuing the cycle.

Chiropractic in a nutshell.

How SUBLUXATIONS Kill:By Dr Mario Gutierrez

Your nervous system is your life-force. It is the nervous system that controls everything in your body that includes how you move, how fast you heal, how you breath, how your immune system functions, etc. It consists of the brain that connects to a power cord aka Spinal Cord, which is protected by a vertebra spine. The power cord separates into nerves that come off the spine. These nerves travel to your neck, back, muscles, heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, colon, reproductive organs, hands and feet.

When your body is getting continuous signals from the brain, your body works efficiently. Now, one has to think that their spine is like a circuit breaker. If it gets overloaded or short-circuited like in a car accident, a fall, a bad posture, vertebra bones can misalign in order to protect the spinal cord. Thus putting pressure on nerves. This can interrupt nerve flow into the human body. Also known as a SUBLUXATION.

Any interference or disruption of this energy flow will cause your body to be in DIS-EASE. This is why SUBLUXATIONS must be removed from the body because if allowed to accumulate, the body will breakdown faster. Just imagine if a rubber band was tied around your finger and left there for a long period of time. At first, the tip of the finger would turn blue and feel numb. Eventually, the tissues in the finger will die since its not getting blood supply. You can apply this same analogy to nerves. Imagine the nerve flow to your heart is diminished due to a slight subluxation in the upper back. If your heart is not getting the continuous nerve flow to function, your heart malfunctions.

If left untreated over time, the heart won’t be able to respond to stressful situations appropriately. The heart has to work harder, which causes it to breakdown faster. This will lead to heart disease eventually. Statistics show that Heart Disease kills over one million people each year. To remove SUBLXATIONS, one needs to be adjusted to restore your body’s healing potential. An ADJUSTMENT realigns bones and takes pressure off the nerve. Power on! ADJUSTMENTS create balance in the human body and thus add years to your life. ADJUSTMENTS are performed by specialized doctors of CHIROPRACIC.

Pressure on nerves causes irritation and tension with deranged functions as a result. Why not release the pressure? Why not adjust the cause instead of treating the effects? Why not?
-D D Palmer. Founder of chiropractic early 1900s.

Pressure on cardiac nerves causes heart attacks? Nonsense. And how about patients with severed spinal cords that digest food perfectly fine. Chiropractors still believe in fairy tale neurology.

 

[truthseeker]

I don't disagree with you at all. I was just trying to make the point to Jake that he would make a decision between two types of professions that both treat the eyes. he will have to make a similar decision about referrals between PT and DC and I don't sense that he has thought of the differences between the two whereas he may have with regard to the OD and the opthalmologist.

 

[cdmguy]

What usually happens is that mainstream providers will shun the DCs as quacks unless they form a personal relationship with someone they consider a maverick provider (say to get rid of a difficult patient they think has psychogenic pain) or if they go to one as a last resort for pain control and have a good outcome and start to buy into the quackery out of laziness. Then they either become exclusive to the maverick or start selling quackery for the DC. Handle DCs like snakes or you'll get bit. All of the DC institutions are corrupt so mavericks aren't sustainable. This is why the National Assoc for Chiroractic Medicine, a pro-science group that was stuck on treating nonexistent mechanical lesions aka another form of subluxation before this was known to be quackery, disbanded. Only around 3% of DCs joined.

 

[drjohndc]

How do you not know what corrective exercises are?

Comparing chiropractic to optometry is a terrible analogy because optometry is based in science while chirop is based on pseudoscience. You can't gloss over this. It is the core foundation of everything that is unique about chirop. Chirop uses false, outdated biomechanics, treats illusory palpation findings that it assumes are joint contractures with a treatment that is known to be ineffective for releasing joints-a practice given up by the rest of the science based manipulating fields. Then after all this craziness it demands legitimacy. As long as chiropractic schools are allowed to indoctrinate students with false information about the field we can expect misinformed idiots continuing the cycle.

Chiropractic in a nutshell.





Pressure on cardiac nerves causes heart attacks? Nonsense. And how about patients with severed spinal cords that digest food perfectly fine. Chiropractors still believe in fairy tale neurology.

What do osteopaths have to say about that? (try to put chiropractic aside just for a moment)

 

[cdmguy]

What do osteopaths have to say about that? (try to put chiropractic aside just for a moment)

You're looking for DO opinions on a PT forum? Not bright.

 

[topher031888]

We already know that physiotherapy is not Physical Therapy. Physical Therapists are more trained than Chiropractors in that aspect but Chiropractors use physiotherapy along with manipulation, nutrition, and life style to heal injuries. It works like a charm.

I really don't think they are different things, not globally anyway. Physical Therapists were known as Physiotherapists in the United States until the formation of the AWPTA in 1921 and in 1922 the name was officially changed to Physical therapists. Before that they were called reconstruction aides. From my understanding, the rest of the world still refers to the profession as physiotherapy. Now my experience with this is limited but I know that to be the case at least in parts of Central America, the Caribbean, the U.K and I think Canada (these being the only areas I have visited personally). I don't know why we decided to change the name of the profession from what it is known as globally. I will be honest and admit that I don't know who started using the term physiotherapy in U.S. again (or if it every truly was stopped being used) or why but I find it interesting that it seems that a new definition seems to be around for something that already had one. I would like to here some additionally thoughts because I really don't know the history of the term outside of my own profession as a PT.

Also how did a thread started in 2007 get started up again and turn into this? Of course I think my profession as the preferable one but I would never dream of trying to tell someone else what they do and don't know how to do because nothing angers me more when people assume they know what I do and go off saying all kinds of ignorant things. I have and uncle and two cousins who are DC. I respect what they do, they are very talented and intelligent individuals, sure we disagree on a lot of things but we agree to disagree and we move on (except my uncle, that guy is crazy). I think both professions have had a profound influence on each other as well but I guess that is another discussion entirely.

 

[jakeislove]

Jake,

I disagree, it is your job. You will be responsible for the care and safety of your patients. If you wish to refer appropriately, you should understand and really be fluent with the skills and training of the providers you refer to. It IS your job to be able to defend WHY you referred to one provider or profession vs another.

For example: Do you think you should know when to refer to an optometrist or an opthamologist? They both are doctoral level trained, they both treat the eye/vision. do you have a different level of respect for the rigor of their training?

Probably.

I submit that the filter to get into opthamology school (med school, then residency then boards) is a little (sarcasm font) more fine than the one to get into optometry school.

The same goes for DC school vs PT school. GPA (agreed, not the only measure of academic ability but one of the few with a number that is widely publicized as an entrance criterion) requrements are vastly different between being able to be admitted to a DC program vs a PT program.

You absolutely need to know the difference between the professions.

I'm responsible for putting out options and letting patients decide.

As stated before: I'm fairly fluent in the differences between DC and PT and indications for their referrals.

If a patient needed physical therapy, I'd send them to a PTs. If I thought Chiropractic would help, I'd refer them to one. Same thing goes for any other specialty. I do know one DC/PT but am uncertain how typical that is or recall which degree he attained first.

I'm not committed enough to the discussion to look up admission criteria between DC and PT programs.

There's an old saying: "If you're a hammer, everything's a nail". I'm flexible enough to believe there's no one size fits all approach to patients.

 

[drjohndc]

You're looking for DO opinions on a PT forum? Not bright.

But DDD in the thoracic spine can cause inhibited nerve impulses to the heart. An adjustment helps along with nutrition to rebuild the discs. Osteopaths know this well.

 

[jakeislove]

But DDD in the thoracic spine can cause inhibited nerve impulses to the heart. An adjustment helps along with nutrition to rebuild the discs. Osteopaths know this well.

Rebuild discs?!

 

[drjohndc]

Rebuild discs?!

Of course. Rebuild the discs in the spine. If you don't you'll be a lot shorter when you get older!

 

[jakeislove]

Of course. Rebuild the discs in the spine. If you don't you'll be a lot shorter when you get older!

Discs do not get rebuilt. I can buy re-hydrated (to a certain extent) but rebuilt is not going to happen.

Isn't there an old joke about Chiropractors needing to use doctor twice?

 

[truthseeker]

But DDD in the thoracic spine can cause inhibited nerve impulses to the heart. An adjustment helps along with nutrition to rebuild the discs. Osteopaths know this well.

really?
Are you really being serious here because I can't tell.