Chiropractor = Physiotherapist?

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FiveO,

Wow that's pretty low a chiropractor stealing from another chiropractor. But it isn't uncommon. A popular saying in chiropractic is that "chiropractors eat their young" which refers to the ridiculously low pay most associate chiropractors make. It could also be said that "chiropractors eat prospective underachieving college students" because 50% of them quit at the five year practice mark. Chiropractors don't want to fess up that they have a fundamentally dishonest wanna be profession so instead of admitting the problems are systemic we see clowns like facetguy here blaming the victims.

Victims??? So you consider yourself a victim now? I guess your fate in this world is everyone else's responsibility...except your own, of course. You need to put this victim mentality behind you because it will ruin your life.


That reminds me, if you ever want to understand chiropractic just get a good book on how cults operate and you'll recognize all the tactics.

isolation
love bombing
propaganda
us versus them/black and white thinking
thought stopping
coercive environment
personally attacking critics

Dude, get some new material. The "cult" thing just isn't working.

Regarding the book, don't get me wrong, it was great in its time and it does a good job of teaching functional rehabilitation and post isometric relaxation stretching. But what is noteworthy is that all of the methods were taken from medicine (Janda was a European MD).

In it's time? What, was it written in the 1800s or something? Bro, it's copyright 2006! Not exactly ancient.

And I've got nothing against MDs, but the work of Janda and Lewit is nothing remotely like allopathic medicine. Don't try to mislead those who may not be familiar with this work.

However I would like to see PTs do more with the neutral zone and mirror image exercise concepts to get patients back to a centered position rather than trying to rehab an off balanced position that will never stabilize. PT needs to upgrade and implement a more accurate theoretical understanding of biomechanics not rehash the tired old functional rehab paradigm when patients could do better. This includes tractioning contractured ligaments.

If they ignore this then chiropractors will leapfrog them because they aren't.

Is this the prolotherapy thing again? :sleep:

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F, I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain this to you. You've amply proven you're incapable of rational debate.

Other people with brains, if you want evidence that chiropractic uses propaganda and false advertising simply read this link:

http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/webclaims.html
 
F, I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain this to you. You've amply proven you're incapable of rational debate.

Other people with brains, if you want evidence that chiropractic uses propaganda and false advertising simply read this link:

http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/webclaims.html

You're not going to waste your time because every time you and I stick to the rationality, science and literature, you can't hang. Instead, you revert back to the ol' "look at this quote I found on the web..." or whatever. And Chirobase as your main source? Sad. (And, yes, I know you were integral in starting Chirobase.)

And don't look now, but the CCE (Council on Chiropractic Education, who accredits US chiro schools) is attempting to remove the term "vertebral subluxation complex" as anything beyond a historical term.
 
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I disagree. Actually your rebuttals have been very weak. For example, you just put down an article by Grod and Sikorsky that was published in the Chronical of Higher Education because it was cited in a chirobase article you don't like. Your response shows either you didn't read the link or that you're trying to hide it from others because you're dishonest and it makes you look bad so you have to resort to the dirty tricks of ad homeinem attacking and making a red herring about source quality. So as far as I"m concerned you're a total fraud.

Your last response is a good example of being weak. You state that the NBCE exam board wants to remove subluxation but where is your evidence and what does that matter? All of the national organizations support subluxation as do the majority of DCs. Moreover, as I stated above NBCE tests on false outdated biomechanical listings and is made of representatives from all the colleges so don't promote them as a bastion of integrity.
 
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I disagree. Actually your rebuttals have been very weak. For example, you just put down an article by Grod and Sikorsky that was published in the Chronical of Higher Education because it was cited in a chirobase article you don't like. Your response shows either you didn't read the link or that you're trying to hide it from others because you're dishonest and it makes you look bad so you have to resort to the dirty tricks of ad homeinem attacking and making a red herring about source quality. So as far as I"m concerned you're a total fraud.

Your last response is a good example of being weak. You state that the NBCE exam board wants to remove subluxation but where is your evidence and what does that matter? All of the national organizations support subluxation as do the majority of DCs. Moreover, as I stated above NBCE tests on false outdated biomechanical listings and is made of representatives from all the colleges so don't promote them as a bastion of integrity.

Have you put forth a strong argument? If so, I must have missed it somewhere. Any evidence, other than web articles? How about a direct reference from a refereed journal? Anything supporting BLT? Or how about neutral zone rehab/stabilization? And if you could steer clear of the ad hom attacks, that would be appreciated.
 
Have you put forth a strong argument? If so, I must have missed it somewhere. Any evidence, other than web articles? How about a direct reference from a refereed journal? Anything supporting BLT? Or how about neutral zone rehab/stabilization? And if you could steer clear of the ad hom attacks, that would be appreciated.

-Sikorski DM, Grod JP. The unsubstantiated Web site claims of chiropractic colleges in Canada and the United States. Journal of Chiropractic Education 17:113-119, 2003.

The following reference utilizes neutral zone concepts and mirror image exercise:

-Ferantelli JR. Conservative treatment of a patient with previously unresponsive whiplash-associated disorders using clinical biomechanics of posture rehabilitation methods. J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2005 Mar-Apr;28(3):e1-8.

What is BLT?
 
What is BLT?

blt.jpg
 
-Sikorski DM, Grod JP. The unsubstantiated Web site claims of chiropractic colleges in Canada and the United States. Journal of Chiropractic Education 17:113-119, 2003.

The following reference utilizes neutral zone concepts and mirror image exercise:

-Ferantelli JR. Conservative treatment of a patient with previously unresponsive whiplash-associated disorders using clinical biomechanics of posture rehabilitation methods. J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2005 Mar-Apr;28(3):e1-8.

What is BLT?

Sorry,

I mus be mixing up my responses to message board posts. I thought you had advocated BLT (Balanced Ligamentous Tension technique) in an earlier post.
 
I am a chiropractor myself. It is true that the chiropractor should not have been there classifying himself as a "physical therapy." Most of you guys are right in that most chiro schools only take 4-6 semester of PT related classes. Having said that, I feel we should not be able to do PT. We should focus on what we are good at, the spine,

As for me, I am an ATC, CSCS, and Personal Trainer. I was an ATC/CSCS at Va. Tech before Chiro. School. An yes, I did get accepted in D.O school, PT school, and PA school. I am not a "MD wanna-be." I think we all have an area of expertise and in my practice, I have a PT, MD, ATC, and Massage therapist working along side me to provide the best care for my patients.

As for the two websites that a member posted...I agree that chiropractors are getting into too many questionable practices.

Best of luck to all of you guys!

William Wong, DC, ATC, CSCS, CPT

I am a chiropractor myself also. It's so easy to fix any patient with bad shoulders and knees. I scored a 565 on my physiotherapy national board exam. With continued CEU's in PT any chiropractor is qualified to treat related conditions. But, physical therapists do have even more training and all the one's I see are great!
 
It is important to distinguish physiotherapy from PT. Physiotherapy is the chiropractic version which is a split between palliative modalities and pilphered PT rehab. In the past there was no rehab and the test focused solely on modalities. The test is an optional one because many DC programs don't "believe in" PT and refuse to teach it. For DCs that attended these programs they can't learn PT on their own afterwards because the instruction will be too short. For DCs that attended schools that taught an integrated PT they probably could do a fair job of rehab. But why risk it when all orthopedically certified PTs will be a great job at it? http://www.nbce.org/examinations/written/physiotherapy/pht_testplan/
 
It is important to distinguish physiotherapy from PT. Physiotherapy is the chiropractic version which is a split between palliative modalities and pilphered PT rehab. In the past there was no rehab and the test focused solely on modalities. The test is an optional one because many DC programs don't "believe in" PT and refuse to teach it. For DCs that attended these programs they can't learn PT on their own afterwards because the instruction will be too short. For DCs that attended schools that taught an integrated PT they probably could do a fair job of rehab. But why risk it when all orthopedically certified PTs will be a great job at it? http://www.nbce.org/examinations/written/physiotherapy/pht_testplan/

Good point!
 
Thanks. It is important to understand that companies like Irene Gold Associates exist to coach students to pass these exams by memorizing question types, answers and behaviors. I attended this series and they actually coached us to take advantage of marriage bias by purchasing a false wedding ring and wearing it to the exam. They also tell you what content will be covered vs what won't and give past questions that tend to be recycled so it is easy for someone with inadquate knowledge to pass any of the sections if they apply themselves. Straight chiropractors are against the board exams so there is a strong motivation to help students cheat their way through. Also, don't rule out connections and bribery between the college administrators and the test prep companies-chiropractic is a small world.

"Prior to conducting board reviews, Dr. Gold taught in several different chiropractic colleges for a number of years; first for Columbia Institute, then Sherman College of Straight Chiropractic, and finally ADIO Chiropractic College. Her years at Sherman College included several years as academic dean." http://www.irenegoldassoc.com/instructors.html

See what I mean? Connections=test content.

So just because someone passes the physiotherapy test doesn't mean that they are competent. Most of the time if they attended a school that didn't teach PT this means they have no supervised experience and that they learned it at a hotel on the weekend.

Another major problem with DCs providing PT is a capacity block. PTs are very efficient because they can delegate routine procedures to PT assistants. DC assistants are not trained to this level so the delegation is not legally permitted. This means that all patient care except for passive modalities must be done by the DC. So PTs can see triple the patient load of a rehab DC, and submit triple the bills. DC adjust their style by cutting patient care to limit time spent with patients to keep the bills paid, they have no choice. This is yet another reason why the Ortho trained PT is superior.

Who would want an over rushed DC with ulterior motives when the PT would perform better? Not me. So the chiropractic system has an unavoidable bias towards limiting patient care and recycling patients into unnecessary maintenance care plans to adjust nonexistent subluxations. They can poach as much PT as they like, but there is no denying that they are still wedded to treating nonexistent mechanical lesions and this will form the core of their care.

"Why limit your practice to the 5% of the population who exhibit symptoms, when subluxation continues to do so much damage to the entire family?"
-Reggie Gold DC. Husband of Irene Gold.


Especially when refusal to treat them does so much damage to a DCs bottom line.

Chiropractic is concerned with the preservation and restoration of health, and focuses particular attention on the subluxation.

A subluxation is a complex of functional and/or structural and/or pathological changes that compromise neural integrity and may influence organ system function and general health.

A subluxation is evaluated, diagnosed, and managed through the use of chiropractic procedures based on the best available rational and empirical evidence.

-Assoc of Chiropractic Colleges. Paradigm. Accessed. Feb 19, 2015.

Medicine, PT and osteopathy have renounced these debunked lesions which is why they are science based while chiropractic is not.

DCs saying they do evidence based PT when they prosthelytize woo is an oxymoron. Rehab is lipstick on the chiropractic pig, bait for the switch to woo. They can't be trusted. That is why the PTs shut down a DC to PT program that Stanley Paris was trying to create in Florida. They also opposed this Osteopractor certification promoted so MDs could treat subluxations according to this debunked model.

Chiropractic is a field that evolved in pseudoscience, and on the whole, remains there. The chiropractic professions continues to utilize aggressive lobbying and false facts to limit and restrict physical therapist practice.
-Kyle Ridgeway, PT, DPT. Osteopractor™ Not now, not ever. May 17, 2012.
 
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Thanks. It is important to understand that companies like Irene Gold Associates exist to coach students to pass these exams by memorizing question types, answers and behaviors. I attended this series and they actually coached us to take advantage of marriage bias by purchasing a false wedding ring and wearing it to the exam. They also tell you what content will be covered vs what won't and give past questions that tend to be recycled so it is easy for someone with inadquate knowledge to pass any of the sections if they apply themselves. Straight chiropractors are against the board exams so there is a strong motivation to help students cheat their way through. Also, don't rule out connections and bribery between the college administrators and the test prep companies-chiropractic is a small world.

"Prior to conducting board reviews, Dr. Gold taught in several different chiropractic colleges for a number of years; first for Columbia Institute, then Sherman College of Straight Chiropractic, and finally ADIO Chiropractic College. Her years at Sherman College included several years as academic dean." http://www.irenegoldassoc.com/instructors.html

See what I mean? Connections=test content.

So just because someone passes the physiotherapy test doesn't mean that they are competent. Most of the time if they attended a school that didn't teach PT this means they have no supervised experience and that they learned it at a hotel on the weekend.

Another major problem with DCs providing PT is a capacity block. PTs are very efficient because they can delegate routine procedures to PT assistants. DC assistants are not trained to this level so the delegation is not legally permitted. This means that all patient care except for passive modalities must be done by the DC. So PTs can see triple the patient load of a rehab DC, and submit triple the bills. DC adjust their style by cutting patient care to limit time spent with patients to keep the bills paid, they have no choice. This is yet another reason why the Ortho trained PT is superior.

Who would want an over rushed DC with ulterior motives when the PT would perform better? Not me. So the chiropractic system has an unavoidable bias towards limiting patient care and recycling patients into unnecessary maintenance care plans to adjust nonexistent subluxations. They can poach as much PT as they like, but there is no denying that they are still wedded to treating nonexistent mechanical lesions and this will form the core of their care.

"Why limit your practice to the 5% of the population who exhibit symptoms, when subluxation continues to do so much damage to the entire family?"
-Reggie Gold DC. Husband of Irene Gold.


Especially when refusal to treat them does so much damage to a DCs bottom line.



Medicine, PT and osteopathy have renounced these debunked lesions which is why they are science based while chiropractic is not.

DCs saying they do evidence based PT when they prosthelytize woo is an oxymoron. Rehab is lipstick on the chiropractic pig, bait for the switch to woo. They can't be trusted. That is why the PTs shut down a DC to PT program that Stanley Paris was trying to create in Florida.

Good information. But I have to brag a bit and say I scored a 565 on my physiotherapy national board exam which is a fine score and it's so easy to heal any persons knees, shoulders, and hips with the education I learned. But I continue my knowledge and didn't stop after chiro college.

Any PT or chiropractor who's competent can treat a patient and have a favorable response. But you're right, a PT learned more in school and they should be able to perform better.
 
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Let's compare DC and PT requirements and see which is better.

In the DC world you learn all of the specialized ortho rehab plus gait analysis, modalities and all the rest in about 15 days in a hotel with no practical experience requirement.

To be eligible to take the Physiotherapy Examination, you must have successfully completed 120 hours of instruction in physiotherapy, before the application late application deadline. This instruction must be taken at and/or recognized by one of the chiropractic colleges whose students are currently eligible to take the NBCE examinations. Physiotherapy may be taken individually or in conjunction with other NBCE written examinations.
-http://www.nbce.org/examinations/written/physiotherapy/pht_eligibility/

In the PT world you either have to complete an approved residency or have 2,000 hours of relevant patient care to take the exam.
http://www.abpts.org/uploadedFiles/...out_Certification/SpecCertMinimumCriteria.pdf

2000 hours PT vs O hours DC

Here are two joke curriculums that DCs are allowed to take. Notice that PT is an elective and is not used in the curriculum at all.

http://www.shermancollege.net/intranet/ACADEM/curriculum.pdf

http://www.life.edu/academics/chiropractic/chiropractic-curriculum/

No contest here. DC rehab is just for show.
 
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But cdmguy we didn't learn orthopedic rehab in a hotel. All of the PT training was part of the chiropractic program and it was really good. All of the patients I rehab get so much better. Of course a fully licensed PT has a lot more hours and they're more knowledgeable but orthopedic rehab is easy if the patient complies with the treatment regiment. Only if they comply - if they don't it's impossible.
 
You really have nothing to reference that against so you wouldn't know if the rehab was good or not.
I suspect you don't because you stated that the subjects are so easy anyone can master them. With these types of curriculums students get no patient training on any of the subject matter. How can you endorse a field that allows a clinical certification with no patient hours of experience?
 
You really have nothing to reference that against so you wouldn't know if the rehab was good or not.
I suspect you don't because you stated that the subjects are so easy anyone can master them. With these types of curriculums students get no patient training on any of the subject matter. How can you endorse a field that allows a clinical certification with no patient hours of experience?

But chiropractic students always treat the patients with PT at the student clinic. This of course is under the supervision of licensed clinic advisors and is a little more than 1 year in length. 250 patients is the minimum requirement to graduate but someone like me treated 333 patients and all of them had some type of PT along with spinal and extremity manipulation.
 
False, only at your program. Accreditation requirements don't specify PT be given to patients, only that the need for active care be determined. That could be addressed by co-referral to a physical therapist while setting the patient up for a year of manipulation.

"Determining the need for active care"
http://www.cce-usa.org/uploads/2013_CCE_ACCREDITATION_STANDARDS.pdf

This is why rehab is an elective at Sherman and Life.
 
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Chiropractic "training" in physical therapy is make believe. Physical therapists are trained in ALL aspects of physical therapy, get thousands of hours of baseline education by qualified professors, take hundreds of tests along the way, take supervised clinical internships, get experience and exposure to a wide array of diagnoses and setting types, amass thousands of hours of real licensed experience, have a real license to practice physical therapy.

Taking a course or two labelled physiotherapy and passing a board exam proves nothing and is downright unprofessional and insulting. No professional besides a PT or PTA is trained whatsoever in physical therapy or physiotherapy. PERIOD.
 
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Let's compare DC and PT requirements and see which is better.

In the DC world you learn all of the specialized ortho rehab plus gait analysis, modalities and all the rest in about 15 days in a hotel with no practical experience requirement.



In the PT world you either have to complete an approved residency or have 2,000 hours of relevant patient care to take the exam.
http://www.abpts.org/uploadedFiles/...out_Certification/SpecCertMinimumCriteria.pdf

2000 hours PT vs O hours DC

Here are two joke curriculums that DCs are allowed to take. Notice that PT is an elective and is not used in the curriculum at all.

http://www.shermancollege.net/intranet/ACADEM/curriculum.pdf

http://www.life.edu/academics/chiropractic/chiropractic-curriculum/

No contest here. DC rehab is just for show.

FYI the exam you're talking about with regard to physical therapists is a specialist exam (i.e. In ortho, neuro, peds) which as you said requires at least 2000 hours of relevant experience or a residency. To become a PT in the first place must go thru an accredited school (~4000 hours, 3 years that are year around) and pass national exam and get a license in your state.
 
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False, only at your program. Accreditation requirements don't specify PT be given to patients, only manipulations.

Yes, perhaps you're right about PT requirements. Just saying all the students treat with PT at the student clinic and the Clinic Doctors supervise this. It's fun to treat people with PT and see them get better and thank you for it.
Chiropractic "training" in physical therapy is make believe. Physical therapists are trained in ALL aspects of physical therapy, get thousands of hours of baseline education by qualified professors, take hundreds of tests along the way, take supervised clinical internships, get experience and exposure to a wide array of diagnoses and setting types, amass thousands of hours of real licensed experience, have a real license to practice physical therapy.

Taking a course or two labelled physiotherapy and passing a board exam proves nothing and is downright unprofessional and insulting. No professional besides a PT or PTA is trained whatsoever in physical therapy or physiotherapy. PERIOD.

Then why do I get such good results when I treat patients who are injured?
 
Yes, perhaps you're right about PT requirements. Just saying all the students treat with PT at the student clinic and the Clinic Doctors supervise this. It's fun to treat people with PT and see them get better and thank you for it.


Then why do I get such good results when I treat patients who are injured?
You and your colleagues who think this way are ignorant and arrogant. Stop masquerading as someone who has training and expertese in physical therapy. Chiropractic modalities is chiropractic modalities and chiropractic exercise is chiropractic exercise. Tell the "doctors" at your training "clinics" to stop pretending to provide "PT", stop plaing doctor, take off the white coat, and get over themselves.
 
Spinal PT is the modern chiropractic bait and switch into subluxation care. The ones who do it won't give it up because it boosts their credibility and gets them a few more dollars.
 
You and your colleagues who think this way are ignorant and arrogant. Stop masquerading as someone who has training and expertese in physical therapy. Chiropractic modalities is chiropractic modalities and chiropractic exercise is chiropractic exercise. Tell the "doctors" at your training "clinics" to stop pretending to provide "PT", stop plaing doctor, take off the white coat, and get over themselves.

I didn't say I have training in physical therapy because it's physiotherapy and there is a big difference. (and I'm not an expert) In addition, we are not talking about chiropractic exercises for the spine only - we're talking about all therapies for the hips, knees, elbows, and especially shoulders after a car accident. ( proximal supraspinatus at 30%)

I realize there's a lot of competition between the specialties but the smartest MD's in Manhattan always employ a chiropractor to enhance the results.
 
You sound like a pompous jerk. What enhancement are you talking about? Any fool can purchase a vibration gun and vibrate the synovial joints, you don't need to waste four years in a quack mill to do that. Chiropractic "rehab" is the same as PT, just not taught as well and with lower standards. Ultrasound is ultrasound. The difference is the application and how hell bent you are on padding the bill. Chiro is a problem because they have to coddle half of DCs that are against PT. So to make money off of them they allow them to take elective classes and muddle through then say they have equal training as ortho PTs. In fact, most DCs lie and tell you that they do a better job at spinal care than ortho PTs because they think manipulation bias adds something to the equation.

Four years and $200k for this state of the art chiropractic manipulation method?



Here's a much older one, Toggle (aka Hole in One-HIO) recently filmed in an actual chiropractic school. Here's what you get for 200k of student loans. This one was originated in the early 1920s, is based on false 1920s biomechanical listings and is still core DC curriculum. Note the chair with the open back (next to the laptop) to run a rough, uncontrolled skin thermograph which is how they guestimate that the procedure worked. Students consider this such a joke they often scan their own arms to get a better post graph. The 1920s were right around when talking movies were invented.



Personally I think the whole thing would be more impressive if DCs wore a shaman get up and played congo music in the background while they attempted to contact their innate intelligence spirit and free it from the imprisonment of its bony subluxation.

shaman-5.gif
 
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You sound like a pompous jerk. What enhancement are you talking about? Any fool can purchase a vibration gun and vibrate the synovial joints, you don't need to waste four years in a quack mill to do that. Chiropractic "rehab" is the same as PT, just not taught as well and with lower standards. Ultrasound is ultrasound. The difference is the application and how hell bent you are on padding the bill. Chiro is a problem because they have to coddle half of DCs that are against PT. So to make money off of them they allow them to take elective classes and muddle through then say they have equal training as ortho PTs. In fact, most DCs lie and tell you that they do a better job at spinal care than ortho PTs because they think manipulation bias adds something to the equation.

There is a reason why the big shot MD's in Manhattan use chiropractors in their office. It's because they're smart which is why they have chiropractic treatment for people with back pain. Why do the smartest most successful people use chiropractors? Think about it! The smartest people in the world use chiropractors. The professional athletic teams use chiropractors. Insurance companies pay chiropractors. The people pay chiropractors and PAY CASH!

Chiropractors can help people with back and neck pain. They are trained in physiotherapy and are licensed physicians by law. I understand the can be improvements to the whole shebang but MD's and some medical schools have some issues as well. When MD's and DC's work together the patient benefits the most.
 
Oh yes woo chiropractic adjusting techniques are such a contribution to care. Grow up.

Chiropractic has nothing to offer healthcare.
 
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Oh yes woo chiropractic adjusting techniques are such a contribution to care. Grow up.

Chiropractic has nothing to offer healthcare.

You just blew it dcmguy. Anybody reading your comments that has good judgment, good instincts, and accurate thinking can see that you are the one who needs to grow up. Chiropractors have a lot to offer healthcare and so do MD's, DO's, and PT's.
 
You just blew it dcmguy. Anybody reading your comments that has good judgment, good instincts, and accurate thinking can see that you are the one who needs to grow up. Chiropractors have a lot to offer healthcare and so do MD's, DO's, and PT's.

People who switch from chiropractic to medicine aren't typically so angry, LOL!
 
I don't know what just happened to this thread.
 
I'm convinced chiropractic has some things to offer healthcare:
Misrepresentation of training, qualifications and status
Practicing outside of scope and on conditions non NMSK
Misleading the public
Overuse of chiropractic services
Encouragement of alternative medicine, massage and accupuncture
 
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I'm convinced chiropractic has some things to offer healthcare:
Misrepresentation of training, qualifications and status
Practicing outside of scope and on conditions non NMSK
Misleading the public
Overuse of chiropractic services
Encouragement of alternative medicine, massage and accupuncture

Don't forget injuries from unnecessary cervical manipulation (stroke deaths) and discouraging medication.
 
Don't forget injuries from unnecessary cervical manipulation (stroke deaths) and discouraging medication.

There's a lot of room in the transverse foramen for the vertebral artery to move. It's not a tight fit so there is no stress there. And I never discourage my patients from taking medications. Some medications are really great. HBP meds help a great deal. Muscle relaxers after a bad accident as well as pain medicine under supervision. Propecia is one of my favorite because it helped me out when I was younger. ( I had no side effects)
Sometimes I need a patient to take a xanax before an MRI because of closter phobia. Xanax is life saving for someone who can't speak in public. Metformin works too. Meds are very important.
 
I'll go ahead and redirect this thread back to the original question, which I believe is whether chiropractic means or includes "physiotherapy". The answer is "no".

Physiotherapy = Physical Therapy

Legally, chiropractors may not advertise "physiotherapy" or "physical therapy" unless performed by a licensed PT.
 
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I'll go ahead and redirect this thread back to the original question, which I believe is whether chiropractic means or includes "physiotherapy". The answer is "no".

Physiotherapy = Physical Therapy

Legally, chiropractors may not advertise "physiotherapy" or "physical therapy" unless performed by a licensed PT.

Chiropractic does include physiotherapy. And physiotherapy does not equal physical therapy. Physiotherapy is directed more towards healing following injury. ( just google it )
 
Don't forget injuries from unnecessary cervical manipulation (stroke deaths) and discouraging medication.

How many people have been injured as a direct result of chiropractic manipulation?
 
How many people have been injured as a direct result of chiropractic manipulation?

Too many. I worked up the odds once. For the average DC the chance of seriously stroking one person was 50% over 20 years. That's 1750 stroke injuries per year. The total number of strokes per year in the usa are 795,000 (per CDC). Deaths are fewer, probably around 200. I knew one DC however who liked to do forceful cervical rotation moves and he claimed to have caused three strokes. I think it psychologically traumatized him because he said it made him quit private practice. Bizarrely, he was a technique instructor at Life University of the same kinds of methods that harmed the patients.

Malpractice companies are owned by DC organizations. They exist to minimize awards and keep them hidden.

Since DCs don't give informed consent on stroke and use cervical manipulation indiscriminately as a first tier treatment any stroke injuries are unacceptable. They obviously are throwing these patients under the train to keep their belief system going.
 
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Too many. I worked up the odds once. For the average DC the chance of seriously stroking one person was 50% over 20 years. That's 1750 stroke injuries per year. The total number of strokes per year in the usa are 795,000. Deaths are fewer, probably around 200. I knew one DC however who liked to do forceful cervical rotation moves and he claimed to have caused three strokes. I think it psychology traumatized him. Bizarrely, he was a technique instructor at Life University of the same kinds of methods that harmed the patients.

Malpractice companies are owned by DC organizations. They exist to minimize awards and keep them hidden.

Since DCs don't give informed consent on stroke and use cervical manipulation indiscriminately as a first tier treatment any stroke injuries are unacceptable. They obviously are throwing these patients under the train to keep their belief system going.

But basic anatomy demonstrates that there's a lot of room in the transverse foramen so the artery does not get stressed. But if malpractice co. are owned by DC corps then that's interesting information. Thanks for the info I'll research that.
 
Too many. I worked up the odds once. For the average DC the chance of seriously stroking one person was 50% over 20 years. That's 1750 stroke injuries per year. The total number of strokes per year in the usa are 795,000. Deaths are fewer, probably around 200. I knew one DC however who liked to do forceful cervical rotation moves and he claimed to have caused three strokes. I think it psychology traumatized him. Bizarrely, he was a technique instructor at Life University of the same kinds of methods that harmed the patients.

Malpractice companies are owned by DC organizations. They exist to minimize awards and keep them hidden.

Since DCs don't give informed consent on stroke and use cervical manipulation indiscriminately as a first tier treatment any stroke injuries are unacceptable. They obviously are throwing these patients under the train to keep their belief system going.

You made those numbers up, period.
 
Denial, as expected. Why would I have to make up data when there is research clearly showing the risk? You just tally number of visits etc and use the known risk of stroke for the lower and upper cervical spine. Only the chiropractors and their flunkies (ie Cassidy) dispute this (sciencebasedmedicine did a good article debunking them). DCs haven't lost stroke malpractice cases for nothing.

But basic anatomy demonstrates that there's a lot of room in the transverse foramen so the artery does not get stressed.

In most but not all. Ones with trauma or anomalies are at risk and each manipulation adds to the risk. There is no accurate screening so all that can be done is informed consent, doing manipulation as a last resort, and only using low force, low rotation techniques (aka Impulse) but not diversified. However, chiropractic schools still teach risky Diversified and Gonstead techniques as core curriculum.

The insurance companies don't release their private case detail and award info by the way (another crime for the list). I just happened to know someone who worked for one of them (ChiroSecure) as a MD JD consultant and he liked to blab.
 
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Denial, as expected. Why would I have to make up data when there is research clearly showing the risk? Only the chiropractors and their flunkies (ie Cassidy) dispute this. DCs haven't lost stroke malpractice cases for nothing.



In most but not all. Ones with trauma or anomalies are at risk and each manipulation adds to the risk. There is no accurate screening so all that can be done is informed consent, doing manipulation as a last resort, and only using low force, low rotation techniques (aka Impulse) but not diversified. However, chiropractic schools still teach risky Diversified and Gonstead techniques as core curriculum.

The insurance companies don't release their private case detail and award info by the way. I just happened to know someone who worked for one of them (ChiroSecure) as a MD JD consultant and he liked to blab.

But I think they've been teaching it for so long because there really isn't a bad risk. Everyone would have caught on a long time ago if it were true. Now I do know that
business is business and stroke is the new business.

Lawyers are like water. Water will always find a way to leak in and lawyers will always find a way to make money. That said - it would be wise for chiropractors to protect themselves
from lawyers and orthopedic surgeons who team up and scare the patient into believing a chiropractor did the damage. The public is so gullible! Boy are they gullible!

I don't even adjust the upper cervicals because of the system and the new business of chiropractic and osteopathic manipulation causing stroke. I only adjust to lower cervicals and
it's documented in my notes. Believe me if I thought cervical manipulation causes stroke I wouldn't do it. The people come first! The heck with making money if it injures people.
If chiropractors or osteopaths are hurting people and they know it they'll pay for it. They'll pay for it in this life or in their next life.

The wheels of justice always balance out and what you give out you'll get back. So don't make things up inside your head and trick patients or scare people into thinking that cervical
adjustments causes strokes.
 
But I think they've been teaching it for so long because there really isn't a bad risk. Everyone would have caught on a long time ago if it were true. Now I do know that
business is business and stroke is the new business.

Lawyers are like water. Water will always find a way to leak in and lawyers will always find a way to make money. That said - it would be wise for chiropractors to protect themselves
from lawyers and orthopedic surgeons who team up and scare the patient into believing a chiropractor did the damage. The public is so gullible! Boy are they gullible!

I don't even adjust the upper cervicals because of the system and the new business of chiropractic and osteopathic manipulation causing stroke. I only adjust to lower cervicals and
it's documented in my notes. Believe me if I thought cervical manipulation causes stroke I wouldn't do it. The people come first! The heck with making money if it injures people.
If chiropractors or osteopaths are hurting people and they know it they'll pay for it. They'll pay for it in this life or in their next life.

The wheels of justice always balance out and what you give out you'll get back. So don't make things up inside your head and trick patients or scare people into thinking that cervical
adjustments causes strokes.

The risk of stroke for upper cervical manipulation is pretty low, especially when compared to other mainstream treatments or drugs.

I'd go to a chiropractor for mechanical back/neck pain or just because it feels good. I'm actually overdue for an adjustment.
 
Here's one source that is in line with my stroke estimate.

International Chiropractors Association
"The process of chiropractic adjustment is a safe, efficient procedure which is performed nearly one million times every working day in the United States."

That would mean 1-to-3 people each working day in the United States have a stroke caused by chiropractic, or 260-to-780 people each year, or 2,600-to-7,800 per decade.

-http://www.chiropracticstroke.com/victims.php

Also read the victim stories.

I am a 36 yr. old mother of 3 girls ages 7, 5, and 3. 2 yrs. ago I had a stroke after a neck manipulation. I actually went in for a shoulder pain...
Surgery was an option but only if I wanted to take the risk of 75% chance of dying on the table. At that point I still could not walk, eat, or basically think well. But, at least I could swallow a little. That was an improvement. I felt like an old lady (I was in a room with a 98 yr. old) and basically the whole wing was full of older patients. But, stubborn me tried walking with a walker and I refused to use anything but the toilet (so I had to get up). I remember my mom asking my neurologist right before they sent me to rehab (which I did not get to decide on but my family had to make the decision) would I ever have another stroke. He told her not unless I went and had another manipulation.
-http://www.chiropracticstroke.com/victims.brenda.php
This woman was not given informed consent that manipulation of her neck for shoulder pain of all things could give her a stroke. Chiropractors should be locked up not licensed.
 
The risk of stroke for upper cervical manipulation is pretty low, especially when compared to other mainstream treatments or drugs.

I'd go to a chiropractor for mechanical back/neck pain or just because it feels good. I'm actually overdue for an adjustment.

True but they should still get informed consent and only do it when it is clinically warranted. I would feel comfortable with a chiropractor manipulating my neck if I had acute neck pain and felt it was warranted, but I would be selective, and here's why. 1) I once saw a chiropractor at ASU do neck mainpulation of ~ 30 people in a row with no exam or interview in an atheltic training room (when I was a PT student), this is completely inappropriate. Personally I'd hope for a thorough exam as I'm sure most if not all patients would. 2) Chiropractor claims of professional superiority and pretending to practice another profession. 3) manipulation mills where patients get adjusted for whatever reason. 4) treatment happiness (lack of consideration for no treatment is warrented here)
 
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