Chiropractic Physician desires MD

[ScottMichaelsDC]

First let me congratulate you all on a great site. I am a practicing DC in FL and have been for 14 years, I feel its time to get a MD and expand my clinical horizions.
I am hoping to get advanced standing, and there seems to be a program in Antigua but my research to date on the school looks like its a bit dicey. My wife is from the UK and we would like to eventually wind up in Europe. Im 40 y.o. My undergraduate cum was 2.8 and chiropractic college 3.03 any advise where to apply? Or do you think its unrealisitc at this point to apply?
Scott M

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[prefontaine]

There are no shortcuts...forget about advanced standing, it will be virtually impossible to get licensed in the US if you receive credit for chiropractic basic sciences...it is quite difficult for a non-citizen to get licensed to practice medicine in Europe...many countries have a doctor glut, eg Italy, Germany, Czech Republic...with your #s and no MCAT, consider American University of the Caribbean, Saba, Medical University of the Americas and St Matthews...if you did not take physics for DC school, then Saba and MUA are your best choices...forget about UHS@Antigua

 

[Djanaba]

Prefontaine is a wise one.

First, it is highly unlikely that you will get any advanced standing in a good medical school. AMCAS does not see chiropractic coursework as equivalent to medical school coursework, whether osteopathic or allopathic, so as you apply the credits won't transfer. (This isn't my subjective view alone; it's a fact of application.)

Second, you will still need all the premed prerequesites that all other med school applicants have, including chem, physics, math, and bio (some, English and humanities). You'll need a competitive GPA and good MCAT scores. Your GPA is not competitive, and you haven't indicated whether you have these prereqs -- and you'll still have to take the MCAT. These numbers will mean more.

Third, if you want to end up in the UK, look harder at UK schools and what they require. Moving around as an international doc can be incredibly difficult, less so if you're brilliant and have incredible grades and boards scores, better do school where you want to end up.

I don't think it unrealistic to eventually apply. But I think you have a lot of work to do, perhaps including a post-bac program or taking some required classes and the MCAT, before you do. If you really want it, go for it!

 

[kimberlicox]

I believe that prefontaine and Djanaba are correct, ie, that your Chiro basic science courses will not transfer to an LCME medical school.

I think you might be best served to decide exactly where you want to finally practice medicine. While keeping as many options open is desirable, be aware that if you want to practice in the US, it is best to have done at least your residency here. I cannot speak for all specialties, but at least for the surgical ones, becoming BE/BC requires that your GME be done in the US. Please check with the appropriate college (ie, Amer College of FP, etc.) or the "green Book" of GME.

Obviously getting a residency in the US is easiest as well if you do your undergraduate training here. As the others have described this would at least entail taking the USMLE (if you could find a school which would allow transfer) Step 1 and most likely, retaking the pre-reqs and the MCAT.

If you and your wife would like to eventually settle in Europe, you might find it easiest to do your undergraduate study, house officer registration and specialty training there. Bear in mind that specialty training under the British model tends to be much longer than in the US (although the hours aren't as bad). There are several schools in Dublin which accept a certain small number of Americans as well as the schools in GB. Other non-English speaking countries offer English medical courses as well, although these would be less desirable unless, again, you are interested in eventually practicing in those areas. After graduation you will do at least two years of general medicine (1 intern year and 1 RMO [registered medical officer] year) before applying for advanced training - whether it be in general practice, surgery, etc. Some of the specialties are over-subscribed and as a non-citizen, despite having been trained in the country, will receive last choice for spots - if you receive one at all. It is not uncommon for physicians seeking advanced training to wait out several years for an available spot.

I recommend seeking advice from an immigration lawyer or the consulate of the country to which you are considering moving to - as there might be significant restrictions on your abilities to train and work there.

Whichever path you choose, it will involve significant time and money. Only you can decide whether you are willing to do so. I don't have any information on the course in Antigua although I have heard that some of the off-shore schools will give advanced standing to persons holding allied health degrees. Obviously this will save you time, but please make sure that you are eligible for ECFMG certification (if you want to work in the US) or other country's requirements if you attend such a school. In addition, since you will likely be required to take the USMLE Step 1, ask yourself how well you will do without having had the basic sciences in 15 years. I know I had a rough time and it had only been a few months!

I'm sure this seems rather disheartening to you, but I hope it has been of some help.

 

[Stephen Ewen]

...better (to) do school where you want to end up.

The University of the West Indies in Trinidad has unlimited General Medical Council of Great Britain status.

Be prepared to spend ~80K just on tuition.

 

[ScottMichaelsDC]

Originally posted by kimberlicox:
I believe that prefontaine and Djanaba are correct, ie, that your Chiro basic science courses will not transfer to an LCME medical school.

I think you might be best served to decide exactly where you want to finally practice medicine. While keeping as many options open is desirable, be aware that if you want to practice in the US, it is best to have done at least your residency here. I cannot speak for all specialties, but at least for the surgical ones, becoming BE/BC requires that your GME be done in the US. Please check with the appropriate college (ie, Amer College of FP, etc.) or the "green Book" of GME.

Obviously getting a residency in the US is easiest as well if you do your undergraduate training here. As the others have described this would at least entail taking the USMLE (if you could find a school which would allow transfer) Step 1 and most likely, retaking the pre-reqs and the MCAT.

If you and your wife would like to eventually settle in Europe, you might find it easiest to do your undergraduate study, house officer registration and specialty training there. Bear in mind that specialty training under the British model tends to be much longer than in the US (although the hours aren't as bad). There are several schools in Dublin which accept a certain small number of Americans as well as the schools in GB. Other non-English speaking countries offer English medical courses as well, although these would be less desirable unless, again, you are interested in eventually practicing in those areas. After graduation you will do at least two years of general medicine (1 intern year and 1 RMO [registered medical officer] year) before applying for advanced training - whether it be in general practice, surgery, etc. Some of the specialties are over-subscribed and as a non-citizen, despite having been trained in the country, will receive last choice for spots - if you receive one at all. It is not uncommon for physicians seeking advanced training to wait out several years for an available spot.

I recommend seeking advice from an immigration lawyer or the consulate of the country to which you are considering moving to - as there might be significant restrictions on your abilities to train and work there.

Whichever path you choose, it will involve significant time and money. Only you can decide whether you are willing to do so. I don't have any information on the course in Antigua although I have heard that some of the off-shore schools will give advanced standing to persons holding allied health degrees. Obviously this will save you time, but please make sure that you are eligible for ECFMG certification (if you want to work in the US) or other country's requirements if you attend such a school. In addition, since you will likely be required to take the USMLE Step 1, ask yourself how well you will do without having had the basic sciences in 15 years. I know I had a rough time and it had only been a few months!

I'm sure this seems rather disheartening to you, but I hope it has been of some help.

Thanks for the input...
I have all my pre reqs including physics it unfourtanate the credits I took to get my DC don't transfer I went to Texas CC and they are accrediated not only by the CCE but also the Southern Conference of Schools and Colleges. I did my undegad @ SUNY Stony Brook Do you think I should still take some pre reqs over? If I could get in in Ireland or the UK with my grades Id apply there any thing you suggest? Thanks! SM


[This message has been edited by ScottMichaelsDC (edited 01-15-2001).]

 

[kimberlicox]

Originally posted by ScottMichaelsDC:

Thanks for the input...
I have all my pre reqs including physics it unfourtanate the credits I took to get my DC don't transfer I went to Texas CC and they are accrediated not only by the CCE but also the Southern Conference of Schools and Colleges. I did my undegad @ SUNY Stony Brook Do you think I should still take some pre reqs over? If I could get in in Ireland or the UK with my grades Id apply there any thing you suggest? Thanks! SM


[This message has been edited by ScottMichaelsDC (edited 01-15-2001).]

After re-reading your post I see that I neglected to take into account your gpa. IMHO, these are *likely* too low for admission to schools in Ireland or the UK. Some of the Eastern European schools may accept you give those numbers and amy even give you advanced standing since you've taken the pre-reqs (which generally use up the first two years of their 6 year curriculums). Obviously these schools are not desirable if you are desiring of practicing back in the US; however, you've mentioned your wife wanting to return to Europe so perhaps this is a viable option for you.

If you've completed all the pre-reqs but physics you have a head start, although if its been several years since you've taken them you may consider taking them again as some schools require that pre-reqs be done in the last 5 -7 years.

Whichever route you take, you have several years of schooling ahead of you as it is unlikely that your DC schooling will be considered as advanced standing. If you retake the pre-reqs and raise your gpa significantly and do well on the MCATs, you should apply to school in this country. The final answer depends on how much time and energy you wish to put in before starting medical school.

Finally, in addition you should familiarize yourself with the licensing requirements in the US and/or any other country you desire to practice in, before starting a course of medical education. For example, you must study at a school listed in the WHO directory, have at least 4 years undergraduate training and spend at least the first two years in the country of your training to be eligible for ECFMG certification. If Antigua is offering you the opportunity to enter into the 3rd year class, I'm not sure it would meet the above requirements, although there may be some exceptions to the ruling. And as I noted earlier, please check on the immigration and work policies of any country you are contemplating moving to - although they may allow you to come over for education they may very well not allow you to stay for residency or working after residency (ie, this is typically the case in Australia).

Hope this helps.

 

[kimberlicox]

Originally posted by Stephen Ewen:

...better (to) do school where you want to end up.

The University of the West Indies in Trinidad has unlimited General Medical Council of Great Britain status.

Be prepared to spend ~80K just on tuition.

Really - thanks for the info. BTW, did anyone else hear about the UWI grad doing a Peds residency in Ottawa who was recently arrested for a murder she committed 15 years ago?

 

[Stephen Ewen]

If I could get in in Ireland or the UK with my grades Id apply there any thing you suggest?

You are too old for admission to Ireland or the U.K. Thought I would spare you the investigative time and effort. But you might try http://www.flinders.edu.au

Sorry to hear of the situation of the UWI grad.


[This message has been edited by Stephen Ewen (edited 01-15-2001).]

 

[kimberlicox]

Originally posted by Stephen Ewen:

If I could get in in Ireland or the UK with my grades Id apply there any thing you suggest?

You are too old for admission to Ireland or the U.K. Thought I would spare you the investigative time and effort. But you might try http://www.flinders.edu.au
[This message has been edited by Stephen Ewen (edited 01-15-2001).]

As a recent Flinders grad, I would venture that:

1) they don't accept applicants for advanced standing
2) his gpa is *quite* a bit lower than the average there
3) would still need to take the MCAT
4) OTOH, your age will not be held against you, as every class has had some students in their early 40s.

This is not to discourage Scott from applying; they definitely take a look at the whole application BUT initial invitation to interview IS based on an algorithm of your gpa and MCAT scores. Those with the highest results get invitations to interview; those with lesser numbers but substantial contribution in other areas (ie, research, clinical experience - which might be your ticket Scott) are given serious consideration and may be invited as well. Its just that with over 25 applications per spot its not the "easy" route some have thought.

I didn't realize that the schools in Ireland and the UK which do admit a proportion of international students have an age limit. Is this expressly stated or just a history of not accepting the "aged"?

[This message has been edited by kimberlicox (edited 01-15-2001).]

 

[Stephen Ewen]

It is both stated and understood. e.g, RCSI cap is 35.

Not knowing his grade distribution, I pointed him to Flinders. They DO NOT even put into the mix ones' first undergrad year, and progreesivly assign higher values to each successive undergrad year--an algo as you said. So they calculate GPA in their own way.

I should like to see you post your experiences with Flinders in a seperate thread for the good of all...and congratulations!


[This message has been edited by Stephen Ewen (edited 01-15-2001).]

 

[kimberlicox]

Originally posted by Stephen Ewen:
It is both stated and understood. e.g, RCSI cap is 35.

Not knowing his grade distribution, I pointed him to Flinders. They DO NOT even put into the mix ones' first undergrad year, and progreesivly assign higher values to each successive undergrad year--an algo as you said. So they calculate GPA in their own way.

I should like to see you post your experiences with Flinders in a seperate thread for the good of all...and congratulations!


[This message has been edited by Stephen Ewen (edited 01-15-2001).]

True - I had neglected to think about the weighting of gpa over the years. So if he did well in his later undergrad years Scott's gpa might look fairly decent.

I have posted comments about Flinders herewith before and am happy to post answers to specific questions and with the caveat that the curriculum is dynamic and has changed for the better since I've finished (ie, they now actually get lecture notes - something the professors fought about when I was in my first two years).

 

[MalibuDC]

I also am a DC, located in Santa Monica, California and looking to enter med school. I was interested in a US school until I found the process would take about 1 1/2 years before I could enter. I've found several 'offshore' schools that seem possible to enter in as soon as April, given that I can get the paperwork done in time.

I realize that I won't get any advanced standing, but I could use a review anyway.

The schools I looked at were St. Matthews and Ross University. Any opinion on these schools? Ross mentioned the MCAT, but St. Matthews didn't.

In the end, we will all have to take, and pass, the 3 parts of the USMLE anyway, so I don't really care which school I go to.

But on the other hand, do US doctors look differently at those who attend international or 'offshore schools'?

Thanks,

Craig

 

[prefontaine]

If you want to practice in CA, then attend Ross, AUC or St George's.

Ross has a high attrition rate and Dominica is a challenging place to live.

St Matt's grads cannot practice in CA at this time, but the school is an up and comer.

Check out Saba and MUA...students are generally pleased...MCAT not required...relatively inexpensive...not eligible for CA licensure...several DCs @Saba...Saba is only 8 square kilometers, very small island, but safe.

 

[MalibuDC]

I do want to stay in California. My family is here, I was born here, blah, blah.

Why do you think the attrition rate is high at Ross? I spoke to their office on Wed. They were very nice and had good info.

What is the deal with Dominica. To be honset, I don't know anything about it. I'll only be there for 15 months, then back to the US. MCAT's aren't required for May classes but are for Sept.

Found the web site for AUC. Looks like a nice campus. I need to check into this one more.

Do you have the URL for St. Georges. I can't find it.

Any other info you know, or can pass along I would appreciate.

Which of the 3 would you choose?

Thanks,

Craig

 

[prefontaine]

try google to locate SGU's site or just type in Caribbean medical school.

Having known many Ross students, they consistently tell horror stories of Dominica and dealing with the school's administration.

There are several forums re to Ross, check them out.

If I insisted on practicing in CA, then SGU would be my first choice.

Without MCATs, I would go to AUC.

 

[Detroit Rock City]

Having recently gradusted from ross I might be able to assist you a bit.
The rumors are true, ross does have an elevated attrition rate. There is a very simple reason for this. Ross will take anyone. Recently that has begun to change, with the MCAT being a requirement. Ross applications have skyrocketed and with that allows the admissions people to become more "selective"
When I started I was there with 220 other 1st years. Only 96 of us graduated on time. With another 50 graduating late. Many drop out, Dominica is no Grenada. But it is do-able. Only 16 months.
The sad truth is that many people cannot get into a medical school these days. So they go to the carribean. St Georges has a great rep, and is a good school from what I understand. I work with some SGU grads and they are top notch. Ross is a great school for those who are capable. I had gpa 2.5 with a 34 MCAT. Ross gave me a shot. I scored 96% on Step 1 and 2. Many people go to ross and think that it is a vacation, they are sadly mistaken. You work your ass off for 2 years to be able to take the usmle. If you are serious about your MD and you must stay in Cali, then stick with SGU or Ross ONLY. They have the best rep's of all the foreign schools in the carribean.
By the way, one of my classmates was a CP in texas. He matched in ortho.

 

[MalibuDC]

What is the deal with AUC?

St. Georges requires the MCAT, Ross will as of the September class, and I don't think that AUC does.

So it looks as if my choices are...Ross or Ross.

BTW, none of the schools seem to have a good realtionship with California.

Is it true that international med students have a harder time specializing?

Thanks

Craig

 

[prefontaine]

AUC is on St Martin, which is a much more livable island. A large # of the students spend their 3rd year in the UK, which would be fine with me. This is also true of SGU.

AUC also has a wide open admissions policy and thus a high attrition rate. There are many complaints about AUC, but IMO, less than Ross.

Spend the money and visit the schools, this is the only way to find what is best for you.

If I had to go offshore and wanted to practice in CA, I would pursue SGU, AUC, then Ross. Another consideration would be the Philippines...some of the schools are relatively inexpensive, accept many americans, are CA eligible and the training is decent.

 

[MalibuDC]

What do you think about that Detroit?

Craig

 

[Detroit Rock City]

All I know is that many, and I mean many of the people who fail and get booted from ross end up at AUC. I know one guy from AUC, I think he is from Jersey. When I asked him what he thought of his experience, he told me that he wished he went somewhere else. Not many clinical sites in the US. He did graduate, and he met a couple of the guys who failed from ross and he could clearly see why they failed.
I have to agree however, St Maarten is a much better place to live compared to ross, but after year 2 or now 16 months you come back to the USA and not the UK. UK is very expensive place to live and if you want a shot at any competitive residency your best bet is to rotate at the particular hospital and shine. If you want to stay in the UK go right ahead, but I think we all know the answer to that!
DRC

 

[MalibuDC]

DRC-

So basically, you think that your experience at Ross was a good one, and a better choice over AUC, right?

Was it hard for you to get residency at a US hospital? I've heard that it can be difficult.
Do you feel that your education at Ross was equal to that of a US school? Can you hold your own against a grad from here?
Has anyone made you feel sub-par because you went to Ross?
Is residency a must, or if I choose to be a GP can I stop without a residency?

Thanks for your help. I need to make an informed dicision. At my age(38), this is a HUGE decision.

Thanks again,

Craig

 

[prefontaine]

An IMG must complete three years of residency to practice in the US...unlike a US grad that can still practice after one year in many states.

An offshore education is not equivalent to a US education, irrespective of what their grads might think.

Having said that, one can catch up in residency. Though I graduated from a US DO school, I would not hesitate to go offshore...if it would save a year or two (if I still had to do it).

You can always do the basic sciences @AUC, then transfer to Ross...

 

[MalibuDC]

I talked to the California State Board today to ask about the 'offshore schools' and they told me that Ross, AUC, and St. George are all accepted by the state of California and have been for over 20+ years.

Currently, offshore grads are required to spend 2 years in a residency program and US school grads are only required 1, but that will soon change. They are going to make both of them 2 years.

The USMLE passing scores of the top offshore schools is approx. 90% STEP 1, 80% Step 2. These numbers are good enough for me. Besides, I can learn the material, if what's taught is what's on the test.

We had the same attitude when I was in chiropractic college. There were the 'good' schools and then there were the 'not so good schools, depending on which of the fence you were on.

It was so clear during the review for the state boards here in California. The students who went to the 'medically' oriented chiro schools couldn't adjust their was out of a bag, but were textbook smart.

So what it comes down to, as I see it, is that we all have to pass the same tests, and cut it at the same hospitals, regardless where we come from.

I still believe that chiropractic is an amazing form of healthcare. Just try and watch an MD get rid of a headache in less than 2 minutes and without the use of drugs. Or return feeling to someones big toe by adjusting their neck. I have done these things. But I do believe that there are MANY situations where a chiropractor can't help, and an MD is needed. Both are very different. I just want to be more complete when I help someone, and I'm not going to wait.

Any comments?

Thanks,

Craig

 

[Detroit Rock City]

I don't know of anyone that had trouble getting a residency. However, they might not have gotten the residency they wanted. I feel that the stigma of being an IMG has lessened in the past few years but some specialties are still less "foreign-friendly". I matched in EM, but I did relatively well on the boards.
Good luck to you!

 

[MalibuDC]

DRC, and everybody else-

Thanks for all of your help. Really. You know, the entire process can be difficult. I want to make sure that all my ducks are in line before I start, and there are no suprises. That's why I'm digging so deep.

If anyone can add anything, it would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Craig