Chiropractic Neurology

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What do you guys think about the new field of Chiropractic Neurology? Seems like those practitioners are trained to do comprehensive neuro exam and to diagnose common neurological problems just like neurologists do...althought they are not allowed to presribe meds, many of them do incorporate alternative medical therapies that may help with many neuro conditions which are refractory to conventional treatment.

American Chiropractic Neurology Board website:
http://www.acnb.org/

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In my very short career, I've already seen enough vertebral dissections following chiropractic neck manipulations to make me quite dubious of the field as a whole....
 
In my very short career, I've already seen enough vertebral dissections following chiropractic neck manipulations to make me quite dubious of the field as a whole....

Agree. I've seen at least three cases of stroke associated with CNM, one of which was well documented as a vertebral artery disection on angiography. The worst part about this case was that the patient complained of nausea and diplopia AFTER a CNM treatment and his DC opinined that "what you need is another treatment," after which the patient becane hemiplegic due to a brainstem stroke...

I'm sure that there are chiropractors who are well-meaning and don't want to harm their patients. But my experience (in residency) with this case has certainly affected my opinion of "Chiropractic Neurology."

Nick
 
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Likely, these are individuals that have a special interest in using their chiropractic skills to evaluate and treat neurological problems. No, they are not MD/DO's but the specialty is built around formulating a chiropractic plan. I am sure that none of these individuals would deny a patient MD/DO care with neurological illness.

Okay, now that the topic of artery dissection was brought up allow me to comment on one of my greatest pet peeves. Chiropractic manipulation does not equal osteopathic manipulation. OMT of the c-spine involves a low amplitude thrust with the joints locked out and the c-spine is NEVER placed into extension. Just wanted to clear the air on that because I cannot believe how ignorant most are of this topic.
 
What do you guys think about the new field of Chiropractic Neurology? Seems like those practitioners are trained to do comprehensive neuro exam and to diagnose common neurological problems just like neurologists do...althought they are not allowed to presribe meds, many of them do incorporate alternative medical therapies that may help with many neuro conditions which are refractory to conventional treatment.

American Chiropractic Neurology Board website:
http://www.acnb.org/

Funny you should bring this up, since I was just looking into this the other day. I think "chiropractic neurologists" may have some adjunct niche in the treatement of some neurologic conditions, somewhere akin to physical therapists -- remember that a lot of neuro problems (stroke, MS, etc) lead to musculoskeletal problems (limited mobility, contracture, etc). And I've had plenty of migraine and back/neck pain patients who love their chiro treatments. Perhaps some manipulative treatment can make these "feel better" if only via placebo effect (sorry, I don't really buy in to the whole "subluxation causes everything" theory).

I actually visited a couple Chiro/Neuro websites and most of them quite clearly state that they are NOT going to be helpful for things like epilepsy, brain tumors, Huntington's disease etc. Although I am sure there are less reputable ones out there.

So, all in all, I suspect it is overall benign. Disclaimer: other anecdotal reports aside, I have never personally seen a chiropractor-induced stroke. I am curious though as to whether any chiros have been hit with malpractice suits for this . . .

Just don't get me started on the chiro-whackos who insist on not immunizing kids . . . .
 
Listen, manipulation is manipulation. Whether done by a PT a DO or a DC. Now these issues of stroke are ridiculous. People here act as though this is some kind of epidemic. If this were true that chiropractors are stroking people out all the time or causing dissections it would be on the news, malpractice rates would be up there with surgeons. I believe there was a study of some years ago that mentioned these accidents weren't done at the hands of a chiropractor but rather other professions such as physical therapists. When people hear of manipulation of the spine or neck or whatever, it's not thought of as physical therapy it's always considered chiropractic even if not done by a chiropractor. So if someone other than a chiropractor hurts someone it's labeled as "chiropractic strokes patient out" even if it wasn't done by the chiropractor. Don't get me wrong, there is a risk and this is a concern for chiropractors. The last thing a chiropractor would want to do is injure their patients. Chiropractors are taught to avoid extension and rotation of the cervical spine. Chiropractic technique is done with the patient prone, which will limit rotation and extension, or can be done supine with patients head flexed towards the chest and then the head is laterally flexed. There are risk factors involved with certain patients and this is something the DC considers before performing manipulation to the cervical spine.

Chiropractic neurologists are typically a consulting doctor similar to a radiologist. Typically they evaluate and furnish the referring doctor a report of their findings. Many do not treat, only evaluate.
 
Can chiropractic neurologists do EMG and nerve conduction studies? Also, is it common for MD/DO to refer their patients to chiro-neuro?
 
What do you guys think about the new field of Chiropractic Neurology? Seems like those practitioners are trained to do comprehensive neuro exam and to diagnose common neurological problems just like neurologists do...althought they are not allowed to presribe meds, many of them do incorporate alternative medical therapies that may help with many neuro conditions which are refractory to conventional treatment.

American Chiropractic Neurology Board website:
http://www.acnb.org/

Until there is data showing these chiropractors have equivalent skills and knowledge of a true neurologist, it's just a marketing term. The term 'chiropractic neurologist' seems to imply a subspecialty within neurology, (i.e. general neurology training plus the benefit of chiropractics). This is just false. Doing a neuro exam does not a neurologist make. If a doctor cannot provide current treatment for the disease they diagnose, why are they diagnosing? No, radiologist is not an appropriate analogy. They have diagnostic advantage, namely imaging, over neurologists
 
Listen, manipulation is manipulation. Whether done by a PT a DO or a DC. Now these issues of stroke are ridiculous. People here act as though this is some kind of epidemic. If this were true that chiropractors are stroking people out all the time or causing dissections it would be on the news, malpractice rates would be up there with surgeons."


Well, all I can say is that I've seen three cases of patients who stroked out after having had their necks "cracked" by DCs.

I was also once called to testify as a medical expert in such a "malpractice" case. It was a very interesting experience. Basically the DC and his lawyer claimed that the unfortunate patient could have stroked out even without CNM, due to his "pre-existing lesion" (vertebral bone spurs), for example by extending his neck and reaching up to get something out of a kitchen cabinet... The "defense" in that case opined that CNM carries a "risk" of stroke of about 1:100,000... and that this was just an "unfortunate" occurance.

The problem was that the DC never informed the patient of this "remote" risk, and he had an even harder time explaining why he recommended "another treatment" for a patient who became briefly nauseated and diplopic after a CNM...

I'm sure that these occurences are fortunately "rare." Unfortunatelyn for the "rare" patients who experience them, the burden of disability is very great.

Sorry if you may not like to here this, but that's the way it is.:mad:

Nick
 
Can chiropractic neurologists do EMG and nerve conduction studies? Also, is it common for MD/DO to refer their patients to chiro-neuro?

No, and no.

1. Although I'm sure chiros would love to do nerve conduction and EMG, I don't think there is any state that allows it yet. And the AANEM/ABEM is going to do everything it can to keep it that way (they are already fighting this battle over physical therapists doing EMG). That being said, I think there are some medical device companies that are marketing carpal tunnel testing devices, which are essentially nerve conduction equipment, to chiropractors.

2. Most MD physicians think chiropractors are quacks. I can't imagine any but the most fringe-liberal-minded MDs actually referring a patient to a chiropractic neurologist.
 
If you know someone with a stroke caused by cervical manipulation please refer them to this site.

http://www.neck911usa.com/

The Problem:
There are over 20 different kinds of stroke pathology that can happen as a result of neck manipulation.
Our Mission:
Neck911USA is a volunteer group of individuals who provide consultations on complications due to neck manipulation. Although most cases are due to chiropractic manipulation, Neck911USA is equally concerned about cases that arise from physical therapists or medical doctors.


Here is a video by one of the administrators, Dr. Bill Kinsinger an Anesthesiologist in OK. Bill explains how he went to multiple chiro clinics pretending to have life-threatening symptoms to see what the chiros would recommend. They all recommended multiple chiropractic treatments rather than refering them to the appropriate place. The video is short and amusing.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7535147756737545918&q=chiropractic

Dr. William Kinsinger's video presentation at Mercy Health Center in Oklahoma City in April 2004 focuses on the real dangers of highest ... all » neck manipulation. Interviews with the parents, and survivors of this technique that has no therapeutic value tell the terrible tale of what can happen if your chiropactor performs this procedure.

For more information on chiropractic check out

Chirotalk: The Skeptical Chiropractic Discussion Forum
http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/

or

http://www.chirobase.org/
 
If you know someone with a stroke caused by cervical manipulation please refer them to this site.

http://www.neck911usa.com/

The Problem:
There are over 20 different kinds of stroke pathology that can happen as a result of neck manipulation.
Our Mission:
Neck911USA is a volunteer group of individuals who provide consultations on complications due to neck manipulation. Although most cases are due to chiropractic manipulation, Neck911USA is equally concerned about cases that arise from physical therapists or medical doctors.


Here is a video by one of the administrators, Dr. Bill Kinsinger an Anesthesiologist in OK. Bill explains how he went to multiple chiro clinics pretending to have life-threatening symptoms to see what the chiros would recommend. They all recommended multiple chiropractic treatments rather than refering them to the appropriate place. The video is short and amusing.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7535147756737545918&q=chiropractic

Dr. William Kinsinger's video presentation at Mercy Health Center in Oklahoma City in April 2004 focuses on the real dangers of highest ... all » neck manipulation. Interviews with the parents, and survivors of this technique that has no therapeutic value tell the terrible tale of what can happen if your chiropactor performs this procedure.

For more information on chiropractic check out

Chirotalk: The Skeptical Chiropractic Discussion Forum
http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/

or

http://www.chirobase.org/

What is this crapola? Are you Botnicks beeeitch or something. Neck 911...thats a laugh. Next it will be "Vioxx911" or "celebrex911". Give it a rest TROLL!
 
Your the one with Ron Jermey as your icon, that's classy!

It is awsome to get called names by a fellow chiropractor. Why can't we get along?

The reason I posted the http://www.neck911usa.com/ website is because people have actually had strokes from chiropractic adjustments. Somehow you decide to ignore the truth here, but I am trying to give the people who are injured a place where they can go for answers.

The real problem here is the benifit to severe injury ratio. It is not good. When you have a technique that could possibly kill you is it really worth the minimal benifits of the chiropractic treatment? Many educated people would disagree with you Ron Jermey.
 
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No, and no.

1. Although I'm sure chiros would love to do nerve conduction and EMG, I don't think there is any state that allows it yet. And the AANEM/ABEM is going to do everything it can to keep it that way (they are already fighting this battle over physical therapists doing EMG). That being said, I think there are some medical device companies that are marketing carpal tunnel testing devices, which are essentially nerve conduction equipment, to chiropractors.

2. Most MD physicians think chiropractors are quacks. I can't imagine any but the most fringe-liberal-minded MDs actually referring a patient to a chiropractic neurologist.

There are at least two states where performing needle EMG by non-physicans (chiros, PT, etc) is illegal (Michigan and New Jersey I believe). Many states are rallying for the same legislation. Washington recently failed to make this happen. But I do agree that over time the American Board of Electrodiagnotic Medicine will rally for this in all 50 states.
 
Listen, manipulation is manipulation. Whether done by a PT a DO or a DC. Now these issues of stroke are ridiculous. People here act as though this is some kind of epidemic. If this were true that chiropractors are stroking people out all the time or causing dissections it would be on the news, malpractice rates would be up there with surgeons. I believe there was a study of some years ago that mentioned these accidents weren't done at the hands of a chiropractor but rather other professions such as physical therapists. When people hear of manipulation of the spine or neck or whatever, it's not thought of as physical therapy it's always considered chiropractic even if not done by a chiropractor. So if someone other than a chiropractor hurts someone it's labeled as "chiropractic strokes patient out" even if it wasn't done by the chiropractor. Don't get me wrong, there is a risk and this is a concern for chiropractors. The last thing a chiropractor would want to do is injure their patients. Chiropractors are taught to avoid extension and rotation of the cervical spine. Chiropractic technique is done with the patient prone, which will limit rotation and extension, or can be done supine with patients head flexed towards the chest and then the head is laterally flexed. There are risk factors involved with certain patients and this is something the DC considers before performing manipulation to the cervical spine.

Chiropractic neurologists are typically a consulting doctor similar to a radiologist. Typically they evaluate and furnish the referring doctor a report of their findings. Many do not treat, only evaluate.

Since you made a few points, let's clear the air on a few other things. do's are taught what places a patient at high risk for injury: rheumatoid disease, Downs, neck trauma (obviously), osteoporosis, etc. I am sure that DC's are given a similar education in their training. A patient that is properly screened but strokes out anyways is unfortunate.

I don't know much about chiropractors, but from patient's I have seen that have had manipulation by both DO's and chiropractors all agree that there is definitely a difference between the two, so I would not necessarily agree that manipulation is manipulation no matter who performs it.
 
Your the one with Ron Jermey as your icon, that's classy!

Thanks.

It is awsome to get called names by a fellow chiropractor. Why can't we get along?

I'm not sure if we can get along just yet. Nice to know you enjoy being called names, I may have a few more for ya. :D

The reason I posted the http://www.neck911usa.com/ website is because people have actually had strokes from chiropractic adjustments. Somehow you decide to ignore the truth here, but I am trying to give the people who are injured a place where they can go for answers.

Is it your mission to let everyone know this because you actually care or is it another ploy to tarnish chiropractic for your own failures like Allen Botnick? Are you a chiropractor? A chiropractic student? Are you a chiropractor who practices?

The real problem here is the benifit to severe injury ratio. It is not good. When you have a technique that could possibly kill you is it really worth the minimal benifits of the chiropractic treatment? Many educated people would disagree with you Ron Jermey.

What is the benefit to severe injury ratio? What about the risk of back or neck surgeries that at best buy a patient a little time and then they end up worse than before they had the surgery? Compare the risk of surgery and anesthesia to a chiropractic cervical spine adjustment. What about NSAID use which leads to more than 103,000 hospitalizations and 16,500 deaths each year in the United States? Why aren't you making billboards and websites to pass this information along? My intention is not to attack medicine, its only being used as a comparison to chiropractic treatment for the same conditions. Are chiropractors causing 16,500 deaths in the US due to VAD? Are there 103,000 hospitalizations due to chiropractic treatment per year? There are risks with chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine and we know the risks and don't manipulate those patients. Everything has some form of risk. I would like for you to prove to me that the risk outweighs the benefit. I have many patients who would say otherwise. Until then, you are just a Troll like Botnick and his band of goons out to punish the profession for their own failures.
 
Is it your mission to let everyone know this because you actually care or is it another ploy to tarnish chiropractic for your own failures like Allen Botnick? Are you a chiropractor? A chiropractic student? Are you a chiropractor who practices? ...

What is the benefit to severe injury ratio? What about the risk of back or neck surgeries that at best buy a patient a little time and then they end up worse than before they had the surgery? Compare the risk of surgery and anesthesia to a chiropractic cervical spine adjustment. What about NSAID use which leads to more than 103,000 hospitalizations and 16,500 deaths each year in the United States? Why aren't you making billboards and websites to pass this information along? My intention is not to attack medicine, its only being used as a comparison to chiropractic treatment for the same conditions. Are chiropractors causing 16,500 deaths in the US due to VAD? Are there 103,000 hospitalizations due to chiropractic treatment per year? There are risks with chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine and we know the risks and don't manipulate those patients. Everything has some form of risk. I would like for you to prove to me that the risk outweighs the benefit. I have many patients who would say otherwise. Until then, you are just a Troll like Botnick and his band of goons out to punish the profession for their own failures.

For the first paragraph above: What difference does it make where she is in her practice? She says she is a DC, so why not take her at her word? She says her aim is to inform patients of the risks of CNM. What do you have against informing patients of those risks? They ARE real, and I've posted on three cases of stroke associated with CNM, including an egregious example of chiropractic malpractice.

As regards your comments about surgical and medication risks, these are well-known. Physicians are supposed to discuss the risks and benefits of medical and surgical treatments with their patients. I do so, and so do most of my colleagues. Some fail to do so, but that is their fault. If their patients suffer an adverse outcome without having been given informed consent to treatment, they will have to answer for their failure in court and to their medical board.

I presume that as a DC you are aware that high velocity CNM can result in neurologic injury. It may be rare, but it is a real risk, and certain anatomical factors (cervical RA, cervical OA, vasculitis, hypercoaguable states, etc. increase the risk of complications. Do you inform your patients of this risk before you "crack" their necks? I certainly hope you do. And what kind of work-up do you do to exclude these risk factors? ;)

Nick
 
It makes a lot of difference. We have chiropractors out there that have failed in practice and have no one to blame but themselves. Instead of blaming themselves they blame chiropractic and thus love to fuel the fire. I do not buy any of this for one minute. The website posted has only one purpose and that is to scare people into thinking chiropractic kills people or cripples them. This person's only existence on this site is to paint a dirty picture with regard to chiropractors and chiropractic. Look at all of this person posts. They are all NEGATIVE towards chiropractic and chiropractors.

I have no problem letting my patients know the minimal risks of my treatments. Like I said, there are risk factors and we no when and when not to manipulate someone. I have on several occasions passed on giving someone chiropractic care for their neck complaints due to a few of the risk factors you mentioned. Even with all the precautions accidents will still happen.

The risks of a complication when performing cervical spine manipulation are slim when done by a chiropractor. Like I said, this billboard and websites only goal is to scare people. That is it, has nothing to do with concern.

Where is this risk to benefit ratio with regard to chiropractic?
 
Ron Jeremy,

You shouldn't be so upset with me cause I am not making any of this up. You should be mad at your profession and the people in your profession. You are the ones who let the quacks do and tell their patients anything they want.

I am only hear explaining to people that they need to be extremly skeptical of the chiro profession because of all the scams and fraud that frequent chiroptactic offices. What is wrong with that? I mean if you have nothing to hide than what are you so worried about?

I'll admit I am not happy with the chiro profession because I have chosen not to participate in the quackery to be successful. Yet, I still have to pay back nearly $125,000 in student loans.

It is a bad profession and getting worse everyday. There are so many consulting firms, cults, scams, insurance fraud, and bogus treatments. It makes me sick.
 
What is the benefit to severe injury ratio? What about the risk of back or neck surgeries that at best buy a patient a little time and then they end up worse than before they had the surgery? Compare the risk of surgery and anesthesia to a chiropractic cervical spine adjustment. What about NSAID use which leads to more than 103,000 hospitalizations and 16,500 deaths each year in the United States? Why aren't you making billboards and websites to pass this information along? My intention is not to attack medicine, its only being used as a comparison to chiropractic treatment for the same conditions. Are chiropractors causing 16,500 deaths in the US due to VAD? Are there 103,000 hospitalizations due to chiropractic treatment per year? There are risks with chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine and we know the risks and don't manipulate those patients. Everything has some form of risk. I would like for you to prove to me that the risk outweighs the benefit. I have many patients who would say otherwise. Until then, you are just a Troll like Botnick and his band of goons out to punish the profession for their own failures.
1. Please do compare the risks/benefits of surgery/medical management versus chiropractic manipulation for a specific complaint.
2. Please provide a source for the statistics you quote regarding NSAID use.
 
With regard to neck manipulation, where is your documentation that shows the risk outweighs the benefit? If you have read my posts you will see that I criticize the profession for its quackery probably more than I defend it. Yes there are things in this profession many of us aren't proud of.

I do not have a problem with others that point out the problems in this profession and who offer solutions. You offer no solutions other than completely eliminating the profession.

Basically you are another Botnick goon who does not take any responsibility for your own actions. If you are not happy then get out, quit dwelling on the negative. Your goal is to trash chiropractic as often as you can, you have no interest in saying anything positive because you are a bitter failure. Listen, no matter what profession you choose, you will fail and turn around and put the blame on someone else. You need to change your attitude before you will ever succeed at anything.

Listen, you made the choice to rack up 125K in loans. No one heald a gun to your head. You could have left the college long before your loans got that high. You choose to say so you are the only one to blame. Also, you do not have to be a fraud or scammer to succeed. That's all you see. There are many many chiropractors that are very successful practicing ethically. You think the only way to make money in this profession is to scam people and that is not true at all.

Yes, this profession has its problems. What profession doesn't? There are things that need to be cleaned up and only time will allow that to happen.

llogg, http://www.nclnet.org/otcpain/harrisesummary.htm

How about you prove to me that chiropractic manipulation is risky compared to medical treatments for the same conditions (Back pain, neck pain and NMS problems).
 
Ummm... This discussion involves neurology less and less with each post. If this is going to turn into a flame war between chiropractors, find somewhere else to go. Should we continue to devolve, I'll just close the thread.
 
Listen, manipulation is manipulation. Whether done by a PT a DO or a DC. Now these issues of stroke are ridiculous. People here act as though this is some kind of epidemic. If this were true that chiropractors are stroking people out all the time or causing dissections it would be on the news, malpractice rates would be up there with surgeons. I believe there was a study of some years ago that mentioned these accidents weren't done at the hands of a chiropractor but rather other professions such as physical therapists. When people hear of manipulation of the spine or neck or whatever, it's not thought of as physical therapy it's always considered chiropractic even if not done by a chiropractor. So if someone other than a chiropractor hurts someone it's labeled as "chiropractic strokes patient out" even if it wasn't done by the chiropractor. Don't get me wrong, there is a risk and this is a concern for chiropractors. The last thing a chiropractor would want to do is injure their patients. Chiropractors are taught to avoid extension and rotation of the cervical spine. Chiropractic technique is done with the patient prone, which will limit rotation and extension, or can be done supine with patients head flexed towards the chest and then the head is laterally flexed. There are risk factors involved with certain patients and this is something the DC considers before performing manipulation to the cervical spine.

Chiropractic neurologists are typically a consulting doctor similar to a radiologist. Typically they evaluate and furnish the referring doctor a report of their findings. Many do not treat, only evaluate.


I'd like to see that study, please supply the reference information.

I think it's funny how chiropractors have for years used the term physical therapy in their practice and I know of absolutely no physical therapists who would ever say that they practiced chiropractic.

-J
 
Physical therapy is a general term and used by many professions. I believe chiropractors used the term before "physical therapy" was a profession. Most chiropractors use physical modalities such as ultrasound, ice, heat, traction and electrical therapy, which are types of physical therapy. Some chiropractors also do rehab which generally falls under the term physical therapy. Chiropractors are not trying to mislead the public into thinking they're therapists.

The study I believe was out of the Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics. I believe the research said something about how many incidents of stroke were credited to chiropractors when they were performed by other professions including physical therapists, GP, osteopaths and a few others.

"Finally, many of the cases cited by medical researchers as being "chiropractic treatments" were actually spinal manipulations rendered by non-chiropractic practitioners. According a research report in the Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, "manipulations" administered by a Kung Fu practitioner, GPs, osteopaths, physiotherapists, a wife, a blind masseur, and an Indian barber had been incorrectly attributed to chiropractors.

The report explained that, "The words chiropractic and chiropractor have been incorrectly used in numerous publications dealing with SMT injury by medical authors, respected medical journals and medical organizations. In many cases, this is not accidental; the authors had access to original reports that identified the practitioner involved as a non-chiropractor. The true incidence of such reporting cannot be determined. Such reporting adversely affects the reader's opinion of chiropractic and chiropractors." (Terrett AGJ: Misuse of the literature by medical authors in discussing spinal manipulative therapy injury. JMPT 1995;18:203.)"
 
If any of you actually bother to look at the literature, you will find many, many case reports and little in the way of meaningful study on this matter.
Below is an abstract of one of the more interesting studies done on this question, which addresses a couple of interesting points:

1. The number of reported strokes after manipulation compared to the estimated number of chiropractic cervical manipulations overall is extremely low (23 strokes vs estimated 135 MILLION cervical manipulations, over 10 year period)

2. Where you stand depends on where you sit: Neurologists were more likely to have "chiropractic induced strokes" brought to their attention than were chiropractors, so there is a large degree of referral bias. Neurologists think this happens all the time because they are more likely to see the adverse results than are the chiropractors (which makes sense: who says "hey, I'm having a stroke . . .better call the chiropractor!")

3. FYI, the lead author of this study, Haldeman, is both a DC and an MD.

4. I will leave you with the ultimate medical research flea blurb: "Further study of this important question is warranted."

Clinical perceptions of the risk of vertebral artery dissection after cervical manipulation: the effect of referral bias.
Spine J. 2002 Sep-Oct;2(5):334-42.

Haldeman S, Carey P, Townsend M, Papadopoulos C.
Department of Neurology, University of California, 101 City Drive, Orange, CA 92868, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND CONTEXT: The growing recognition of cervical manipulation as a treatment of neck pain and cervicogenic headaches has lead to increased interest in potential complications that may result from this treatment approach. Recent surveys have reported that many neurologists will encounter cases of vertebral artery dissection that occur at various times after cervical manipulation, whereas most practitioners of spinal manipulation are of the opinion that these events are extremely rare. We asked the question whether these differences in perception could be explained in part by referral or selection bias. PURPOSE: To assess the effect of referral bias on the differences in perceived incidence of vertebral artery dissection after cervical manipulation between neurologists and chiropractors in Canada. STUDY DESIGN: This study was a retrospective review of cases where neurological symptoms consistent with cerebrovascular ischemia were reported by chiropractors in Canada. METHODS: An analysis of data from a chiropractic malpractice insurance carrier (Canadian Chiropractic Protective Association [CCPA]) and results of a survey of chiropractors was performed to determine the likelihood that a vertebral artery dissection after cervical manipulation would be reported to practicing chiropractors. This was compared with the likelihood that a neurologist would be made aware of such a complication. RESULTS: For the 10-year period 1988 to 1997, there were 23 cases of vertebral artery dissection after cervical manipulation reported to the CCPA that represents 85% of practicing chiropractors in Canada. Based on the survey, an estimated 134,466,765 cervical manipulations were performed during this 10-year period. This gave a calculated rate of vertebral artery dissection after manipulation of 1:5,846,381 cervical manipulations. Based on the number of practicing chiropractors and neurologists during the period of this study, 1 of every 48 chiropractors and one of every two neurologists would have been made aware of a vascular complication from cervical manipulation that was reported to the CCPA during their practice lifetime. CONCLUSIONS: The perceived risk after cervical manipulation by chiropractors and neurologists is related to the probability that a practitioner will be made aware of such an incident. The difference in the number of chiropractors (approximately 3,840 in 1997) and neurologists (approximately 4,000 in 1997) in active practice and the fact that each patient who has a stroke after manipulation will likely be seen by only one chiropractor but by three or more neurologists partly explains the difference in experience and the perception of risk of these two professions. This selection or referral bias is important in shaping the clinical opinions of the various disciplines and distorts discussion on the true incidence of these complications of cervical manipulation. The nature of this study, however, describes the likelihood that a clinician will be made aware of such an event and cannot be interpreted as describing the actual risk of stroke after manipulation.
 
Ummm... This discussion involves neurology less and less with each post. If this is going to turn into a flame war between chiropractors, find somewhere else to go. Should we continue to devolve, I'll just close the thread.

I was thinking along the same lines, GB. Neurologist cites a good review article that puts this topic in perspective. The risk of stroke after CNM is certainly low, but it is a real risk. As I posted earlier, I've examined 3 patients (over 15 years of practice) that I know had strokes immediately after CNM. All three had angiographically proven vertebral artery lesions...two were dissections attributable to osteoarthritic changes in the transverse processes, and one was a vertebral artery thrombosis of unclear causation, but also associated with severe cervical OA. After reviewing these cases, it seemed that two could be chalked up to misfortune...the DO's made no egregious mistakes, but s... happens. In one case, the DC was just negligent. He administered a CNM for a young carpenter who complained of neck/shoulder pain, and the patient drove home, but on the way he developed vertigo, diplopia, and N/V. He had to stop at the side of the road, throw up, and wait about 10 minutes till he felt well enough to drive home and go to bed. Two days later he returned to the DC's office for follow-up, informed the DC that his neck pain was better (he was a worker's comp patient) and told the DC about his brief episode of vertigo, diplopia, and N/V. The DC told the patient that he needed another neck-cracking... The rest is history...

I don't want to bash chiropractic. I'm sure that chiropractic helps some people. But every intervention carries risks. At the least I would expect that honorable DCs would discuss those risks with their patients. And I would certainly hope that their training would be good enough to prevent them from doing to their patients what they did to this poor carpenter who lost his ability to provide for his wife and young child.

I don't know what more needs to be said. GB, tear down this thread!:(

Nick
 
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