Charting outcomes for 2022

[FutureDoctor5000]

Welp guess I'm not gonna be getting into gas lol

It’s around a 70% so not too shaby… we also don’t know the applicant pool. If you have a decent app for anesthesia and apply broadly you should be ok..

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[Sidus1011]

I wonder how long it will take for new DO school expansion to quickly outpace residency spot expansion. I wouldn’t be surprised if DO becomes de facto primary care in the future with a much smaller percentage becoming specialists.

Probably COCA's plan all along honestly. More DOs = More PCPs = Pockets lined and clapping on the back by Governmental bodies. I'd be happy going into Family Med, but it's apparent that DO leadership doesn't really truly care about it's current students' goals besides it's primary care output.

 

[FarmerToDoctor]

Matching EM is easy. Getting a good EM job...not so much.

Private Equity Gloats Over A Doctor Glut

https://www.levernews.com/private-equity-gloats-over-a-doctor-glut/?fbclid=IwAR2IUenuTnjOyGw_0vmv0LJN8DRbDpJvBaDXrv7J-oSUbNy_wS_wjkKvIRc&fs=e&s=cl

forums.studentdoctor.net

What makes for a good EM job?

 

[gyngyn]

What makes for a good EM job?

You'd have to ask them.

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

I wonder how long it will take for new DO school expansion to quickly outpace residency spot expansion. I wouldn’t be surprised if DO becomes de facto primary care in the future with a much smaller percentage becoming specialists.

I think its important to understand the difference between number and percent. The percent is going down. But the number of DOs matching into specialties definitely is not. The decreased percent matching in to specialties is due to increased DO students. Even if the numbers look low, im not sure much has changed as long as you are not going to a brand new school.

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

It’s around a 70% so not too shaby… we also don’t know the applicant pool. If you have a decent app for anesthesia and apply broadly you should be ok..

Yeah I'm not actually that worried since I'm not even sure if I'll apply gas or something else, but at the end of the day it's on me to get the scores and eltters and stuff that I need

 

[Mad Jack]

Probably COCA's plan all along honestly. More DOs = More PCPs = Pockets lined and clapping on the back by Governmental bodies. I'd be happy going into Family Med, but it's apparent that DO leadership doesn't really truly care about it's current students' goals besides it's primary care output.

Everybody thinks they want to go into primary care but no one wants to crank out any heavy-ass RVUs

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

What makes for a good EM job?

Eventually it will be tough to get Any EM job let alone a good one. ACEP projects a surplus of 10k emergency medicine physicians by 2030

 

[DrStephenStrange]

... Even if the numbers look low, im not sure much has changed as long as you are not going to a brand new school.

That's not necessarily true either. I went to ARCOM, and we had a 99.3% match rate this year ( I mean true match rate not post soap). The one and only person that didn't match and had to soap was applying ortho. We had 4/5 match rate for Ortho, 4/4 DR, 4/4 Gas, 2/2 PM&R, 8/8 psych, 3/3 OBGYN, 2/2 GS. I'd say we did pretty well for a new school.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

How so? There is huge doctor shortage? I haven’t crunched the numbers but I am willing to be bet there’s a shortage of specialists as well in addition to primary care… Outside of say a few specialties like rad onc or EM.

I mean, not being able to get paid because you can’t find a job is a massive problem far worse than not being able to match your most coveted specialty… Have we learned nothing from EM and Rad Onc?

There is a major allocation problem. More residencies won’t change that.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Expanding residencies would be a much much larger problem than midlevels. You want to see physician comp crater? Expand residencies by 10k or so. Will be like the UK

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Expanding residencies would be a much much larger problem than midlevels. You want to see physician comp crater? Expand residencies by 10k or so. Will be like the UK

Maybe that’s fine? Medicine isn’t a career you should go into if your primary goal is to make money?

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Maybe that’s fine? Medicine isn’t a career you should go into if your primary goal is to make money?

Hard disagree here. Going into medicine for the money is a perfectly fine reason, and while it’s not my personal main reason (def top 3 tho), I don’t think it’s fair at all to say that others shouldn’t. I know people always like to say “there are better ways to make lots of money” but no other career offers such a high salary with so much security. CS? The median is in the low hundreds and the jobs that make 200-300K plus are rare and in HCOL cities. Finance? Jobs that pay physician money are uncommon and nowhere near as secure. Medicine is a fine vehicle for building generational wealth.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Maybe that’s fine? Medicine isn’t a career you should go into if your primary goal is to make money?

Probably a big reason why the most skilled doctors are in the United States and why many of the most skilled doctors from other countries want to come to the United stages

 

[pigsinacloth]

Hard disagree here. Going into medicine for the money is a perfectly fine reason, and while it’s not my personal main reason (def top 3 tho), I don’t think it’s fair at all to say that others shouldn’t. I know people always like to say “there are better ways to make lots of money” but no other career offers such a high salary with so much security. CS? The median is in the low hundreds and the jobs that make 200-300K plus are rare and in HCOL cities. Finance? Jobs that pay physician money are uncommon and nowhere near as secure. Medicine is a fine vehicle for building generational wealth.

I'm going to disagree with you a bit. Realistically compound interest and lack of a couple hundred thousand dollars of debt would make it way easier to build generational wealth. Also think about how much you need to move around as a physician during school, residency, maybe fellowship, new attending job, working 50+ hours a week. You potentially lose the opportunity to build a lot of social capital as a doc which could have benefited your children and grandchildren.

I think looking at this from a purely salary perspective is flawed as someone who is reasonable with their money and works a fairly good job has the opportunity to build fairly equivalent wealth as well as social standing. Not to say being a doc does not hold high regard in society, but you do miss out on some networking opportunities for non medically related activities. For example my dad coached little league when I was growing up and those friendships he built with the other fathers have helped me a number of times in my life even though none of them are in the medical field.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

J

I'm going to disagree with you a bit. Realistically compound interest and lack of a couple hundred thousand dollars of debt would make it way easier to build generational wealth. Also think about how much you need to move around as a physician during school, residency, maybe fellowship, new attending job, working 50+ hours a week. You potentially lose the opportunity to build a lot of social capital as a doc which could have benefited your children and grandchildren.

I think looking at this from a purely salary perspective is flawed as someone who is reasonable with their money and works a fairly good job has the opportunity to build fairly equivalent wealth as well as social standing. Not to say being a doc does not hold high regard in society, but you do miss out on some networking opportunities for non medically related activities. For example my dad coached little league when I was growing up and those friendships he built with the other fathers have helped me a number of times in my life even though none of them are in the medical field.

Hard disagree here. Going into medicine for the money is a perfectly fine reason, and while it’s not my personal main reason (def top 3 tho), I don’t think it’s fair at all to say that others shouldn’t. I know people always like to say “there are better ways to make lots of money” but no other career offers such a high salary with so much security. CS? The median is in the low hundreds and the jobs that make 200-300K plus are rare and in HCOL cities. Finance? Jobs that pay physician money are uncommon and nowhere near as secure. Medicine is a fine vehicle for building generational wealth.

There are IT guys right now making 100k with a fraction of the debt that medical students have...add on an MBA from somewhere reputable
and you could make 150-200k. In fact, in HCOL you can negotiate even higher salaries... and this is the opposite for physicians, you will almost always make less money in larger HCOL areas as a physician despite the massive debt. Sure you can make a lot more say 500k+ in GI or NSYG etc but you work a lot more hours for that pay. IF you know how to invest you could theoretically be FIRE by going the CS/IT route or the MBA route by age 40-45, you cant do that as a physician since most people just start out their careers in the mid-thirties with a load of debt. I know of several people(one in neurosurgery residency) who quit and are consultants now. I mean the medschool insiders guy dropped his plastics residency in a heartbeat once he found a better alternative(youtube).

 

[Steve_Zissou]

I'm going to disagree with you a bit. Realistically compound interest and lack of a couple hundred thousand dollars of debt would make it way easier to build generational wealth. Also think about how much you need to move around as a physician during school, residency, maybe fellowship, new attending job, working 50+ hours a week. You potentially lose the opportunity to build a lot of social capital as a doc which could have benefited your children and grandchildren.

I think looking at this from a purely salary perspective is flawed as someone who is reasonable with their money and works a fairly good job has the opportunity to build fairly equivalent wealth as well as social standing. Not to say being a doc does not hold high regard in society, but you do miss out on some networking opportunities for non medically related activities. For example my dad coached little league when I was growing up and those friendships he built with the other fathers have helped me a number of times in my life even though none of them are in the medical field.

300K debt with guaranteed salary of 250K+ over a lifetime ends up being a much better deal than the average or median of any other career. If we’re talking about the average physician vs the average anything else, it’s a clear winner.

We could argue lifestyle all day, but plenty of specialties have good lifestyles with exceptional pay.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

J


There are IT guys right now making 100k with a fraction of the debt that medical students have...add on an MBA from somewhere reputable
and you could make 150-200k. In fact, in HCOL you can negotiate even higher salaries... and this is the opposite for physicians, you will almost always make less money in larger HCOL areas as a physician despite the massive debt. Sure you can make a lot more say 500k+ in GI or NSYG etc but you work a lot more hours for that pay. IF you know how to invest you could theoretically be FIRE by going the CS/IT route or the MBA route by age 40-45, you cant do that as a physician since most people just start out their careers in the mid-thirties with a load of debt. I know of several people(one in neurosurgery residency) who quit and are consultants now. I mean the medschool insiders guy dropped his plastics residency in a heartbeat once he found a better alternative(youtube).

The median MGMA for radiology was just under 500K, and I can promise you they’re not working way more hours than MBAs or CS people. You’re comparing the top percentiles of MBAs or CS people to the average of physicians. The opportunities exist far less commonly among those other fields. People seem to get caught up in their bubble of friends who went to top tier schools with them and landed top tier jobs thinking that everyone in Med school could land amazing jobs in other fields, which just isn’t true.

Also, most physicians could easily pay off their debt in a few years if they went to a US Med school and practiced a little financial self control out of residency for a couple of years. The wealth building potential after that is more than enough to make up the difference.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Maybe that’s fine? Medicine isn’t a career you should go into if your primary goal is to make money?

No. But it’s completely stupid to train constantly for a minimum of 7 years to not even have a job which is exactly what you’re advocating for.

Extremely dumb take.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Maybe that’s fine? Medicine isn’t a career you should go into if your primary goal is to make money?

The financial and career security medicine provides are unparalleled. It’s a perfectly valid reason to go into medicine. This is a job.

Opening more residencies because poor Johnny med student can’t be an orthopod is a a pretty poor reason…. The real issue is allocation, and pumping more docs into the system won’t fix anything other than some med student egos

J


There are IT guys right now making 100k with a fraction of the debt that medical students have...add on an MBA from somewhere reputable
and you could make 150-200k. In fact, in HCOL you can negotiate even higher salaries... and this is the opposite for physicians, you will almost always make less money in larger HCOL areas as a physician despite the massive debt. Sure you can make a lot more say 500k+ in GI or NSYG etc but you work a lot more hours for that pay. IF you know how to invest you could theoretically be FIRE by going the CS/IT route or the MBA route by age 40-45, you cant do that as a physician since most people just start out their careers in the mid-thirties with a load of debt. I know of several people(one in neurosurgery residency) who quit and are consultants now. I mean the medschool insiders guy dropped his plastics residency in a heartbeat once he found a better alternative(youtube).

I have a family member in high end tech. For every person that makes it there are literally hundreds that fail. It’s not a very good argument.

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

Yes, going off what others have said. Medicine would be a DEAD field if the salary wasn't what it currently is. We are all here because we want to help people, but we are also all here because this is a career that provides a very good financial return for all the work that has to be put into achieving a MD/DO. The journey to medicine for most starts between high school and college where you begin to make many sacrifices in order to be competitive for medical school. It doesn't get any easier for the next 8-12 years once you get accepted to medical school. So for the sacrifices that physicians make I think they are actually severely underpaid when you factor in the constant responsibility they have as well as the schooling and dedication it takes to become an attending physician. So if salaries were cut, then the brightest students would no longer be going for medical school but rather engineering, computer science, or business.

 

[BilaterallyDownandout]

It’ll stay the same/similar is my guess. Gas/Rads let’s you escape medicine and uniformly start at 400-450k that’s why those are and will remain competitive.

Do you realize how many outpatient new jobs start between 375-450. With bonus it’s even higher or if you are the only neurologist I have seen 500k.

 

[Prehealth1011]

Do you realize how many outpatient new jobs start between 375-450. With bonus it’s even higher or if you are the only neurologist I have seen 500k.

How many?

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

The financial and career security medicine provides are unparalleled. It’s a perfectly valid reason to go into medicine. This is a job.

Opening more residencies because poor Johnny med student can’t be an orthopod is a a pretty poor reason…. The real issue is allocation, and pumping more docs into the system won’t fix anything other than some med student egos


I have a family member in high end tech. For every person that makes it there are literally hundreds that fail. It’s not a very good argument.

Yeah idk why med students think they can just walk into a 6figure tech job

 

[FarmerToDoctor]

I've ran the numbers on my personal situation. My path was not straight forward. I went to grad school 2x before getting into medical school. I hold a MS in Biology (cardiovascular disease focus) and a MBA. My goal is to become a cardiologist...we'll see how that all pans out.

The opportunity cost of this dream/career will have been an additional 15 years of training after graduating college, $1,050,000 in potential income (assuming average salary of $70k over 15 years), $190,000 in investments (10% of annual income @ 8% return in a Roth IRA), and $742,000 in student loans (all loans and interest taken into account) for a grand total of $1,982,000 in opportunity costs. Granted, if I do become a cardiologist when all is said and done, I could recoup all of that in 7-8 years, when you include the time and interest accumulated to pay off the student loans AND by living within my means. I'll be in my mid-40s by the time everything pans out for me financially.

 

[Konigstiger]

This is just sad to see. And things will only get worse in 2024 and beyond when boards are P/F.

I would advise all premeds to avoid DO schools unless you want to do primary care. But unfortunately it seems like more than half of the new students every year at my DO school are aiming for ortho or another surgical subspecialty. Until prospective students start speaking with their wallets instead of inhaling that sweet, sweet copium and thinking they will be one of the exceptional few who will match ortho or whatever, DO administrations will continue to open new schools and do nothing to try and raise the abysmal reputation of the DO degree among PDs.

 

[Mad Jack]

Eventually it will be tough to get Any EM job let alone a good one. ACEP projects a surplus of 10k emergency medicine physicians by 2030

We really need to start bridge programs so ED physicians can be qualified in hospital medicine, primary care, and other fields where their skills can transfer without them going unemployed or having to start training from scratch

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

We really need to start bridge programs so ED physicians can be qualified in hospital medicine, primary care, and other fields where their skills can transfer without them going unemployed or having to start training from scratch

i think especially for people who chose em before the oversupply data was published. Kinda feel like people choosing it now know what they’re getting into but just think it won’t happen to them

 

[DarkHorizon]

Everybody thinks they want to go into primary care but no one wants to crank out any heavy-ass RVUs

That’s because they are not on dat dere celltech.

 

[Darrow O'Lykos]

I wonder how long it will take for new DO school expansion to quickly outpace residency spot expansion. I wouldn’t be surprised if DO becomes de facto primary care in the future with a much smaller percentage becoming specialists.

Isn't DO school expansion already quickly outpacing residency spot expansion? Either way, they simply do not care.

This is just sad to see. And things will only get worse in 2024 and beyond when boards are P/F.

I would advise all premeds to avoid DO schools unless you want to do primary care. But unfortunately it seems like more than half of the new students every year at my DO school are aiming for ortho or another surgical subspecialty. Until prospective students start speaking with their wallets instead of inhaling that sweet, sweet copium and thinking they will be one of the exceptional few who will match ortho or whatever, DO administrations will continue to open new schools and do nothing to try and raise the abysmal reputation of the DO degree among PDs.

It's going to be a lot easier to infiltrate the DO leadership generationally and end the "separate but equal" mindset than to get a bunch of 21-22 year olds to decrease their odds of obtaining medical school acceptances, even if it means a higher risk of not ending up in the fields they initially wanted.

 

[FarmerToDoctor]

This is just sad to see. And things will only get worse in 2024 and beyond when boards are P/F.

I would advise all premeds to avoid DO schools unless you want to do primary care. But unfortunately it seems like more than half of the new students every year at my DO school are aiming for ortho or another surgical subspecialty. Until prospective students start speaking with their wallets instead of inhaling that sweet, sweet copium and thinking they will be one of the exceptional few who will match ortho or whatever, DO administrations will continue to open new schools and do nothing to try and raise the abysmal reputation of the DO degree among PDs.

Our Dean stressed this to us. Most of the 4th year students at my program that went unmatched were aiming for a cutting specialty. I think all but a handful that were aiming for primary care went unmatched. The numbers this year emphasized that surgical specialties are not DO friendly, even for qualified applicants, and that students need to have a backup plan and to be realistic with their goals. I came in wanting IM, but we'll see how that changes once we hit rotations.

 

[deleted688186]

Our Dean stressed this to us. Most of the 4th year students at my program that went unmatched were aiming for a cutting specialty. I think all but a handful that were aiming for primary care went unmatched. The numbers this year emphasized that surgical specialties are not DO friendly, even for qualified applicants, and that students need to have a backup plan and to be realistic with their goals. I came in wanting IM, but we'll see how that changes once we hit rotations.

If I can ask, what do you think was the reason some of your colleagues failed to match into primary care?

 

[FarmerToDoctor]

If I can ask, what do you think was the reason some of your colleagues failed to match into primary care?

I would say the normal things that cause one not to match...failed or scored really low on a board exam, not a very competitive application, poor interview skills, didn't apply broadly enough, poor clinical grades, weak LORs, etc.

 

[DO2015CA]

We really need to start bridge programs so ED physicians can be qualified in hospital medicine, primary care, and other fields where their skills can transfer without them going unemployed or having to start training from scratch

I agree with bridge programs but the problem is a good ER education doesn’t make them qualified for hospital medicine or outpatient. There is a lot more to learn for chronic management/after stabilization. I would agree with giving them credit for residency months that they did. So like their 1 month of IM, 2 months of icu, any translatable electives, etc. this could maybe cut off 1 year for another specialty depending how applicable. Maybe 1.5 years at most

 

[DO2015CA]

If I can ask, what do you think was the reason some of your colleagues failed to match into primary care?

Multiple board failures or the EVEN BIGGER reason of professionalism

 

[Mad Jack]

I agree with bridge programs but the problem is a good ER education doesn’t make them qualified for hospital medicine or outpatient. There is a lot more to learn for chronic management/after stabilization. I would agree with giving them credit for residency months that they did. So like their 1 month of IM, 2 months of icu, any translatable electives, etc. this could maybe cut off 1 year for another specialty depending how applicable. Maybe 1.5 years at most

I would imagine it would be a 2 year endeavor to switch to IM or FM, most likely. But having it be a fellowship type setup that isn't open to new graduates would ensure that they aren't competing with fresh grads and that their funding would be intact

 

[DO2015CA]

I would imagine it would be a 2 year endeavor to switch to IM or FM, most likely. But having it be a fellowship type setup that isn't open to new graduates would ensure that they aren't competing with fresh grads and that their funding would be intact

I think that would be an acceptable “fellowship”. Lol ER residency with a primary care fellowship lol

 

[Mad Jack]

I think that would be an acceptable “fellowship”. Lol ER residency with a primary care fellowship lol

It's the only way I see to keep them employed and get them out of ER medicine without putting them into direct competition with new grads

 

[Darrow O'Lykos]

Lol @ the neurosurgery research column. Praise those poor, magnificent b*stards.

Also as an additional lol, the NRMP screwed up and copied + pasted Chart 11 data (research) into Chart 12 (work experiences). So it looks like the average matched neurosurgery applicant had 32 jobs.

These expectations are getting out of hand!

 

[TruthInMedEd]

That's not necessarily true either. I went to ARCOM, and we had a 99.3% match rate this year ( I mean true match rate not post soap). The one and only person that didn't match and had to soap was applying ortho. We had 4/5 match rate for Ortho, 4/4 DR, 4/4 Gas, 2/2 PM&R, 8/8 psych, 3/3 OBGYN, 2/2 GS. I'd say we did pretty well for a new school.

Maybe this will help get ARCOM off Goro's naughty list. When combined with figuring out the previous posts about clinical education budget being proven false as well, the complaining student was simply upset the school wouldn't pay over $5,000 in "DO application fees" for a couple of high end away rotations that charged DO's significantly more than MD students. Those are good results for a school that focuses on a primary care mission, but also assists the students pursuing subspecialty residency as well.

 

[TruthInMedEd]

WTF Happened to PM&R? I thought this was one of the most DO-friendly specialties? Were there just that many more unqualified applicants, because it seems hard to believe it went "anti-DO" over a year...

Also, RIP DO gas and rads. Is this the new trend, or just a fluke?

Traditionally, MD students paid little attention to PM&R, but that tide is shifting, hence more demand on that side. PM&R still love the fact that DO applicants have stronger MSK skills, which are a good skillset for this specialty, so good DO applicants should continue to have their applications viewed very positively by PD's.

 

[TruthInMedEd]

This is just sad to see. And things will only get worse in 2024 and beyond when boards are P/F.

I would advise all premeds to avoid DO schools unless you want to do primary care. But unfortunately it seems like more than half of the new students every year at my DO school are aiming for ortho or another surgical subspecialty. Until prospective students start speaking with their wallets instead of inhaling that sweet, sweet copium and thinking they will be one of the exceptional few who will match ortho or whatever, DO administrations will continue to open new schools and do nothing to try and raise the abysmal reputation of the DO degree among PDs.

DO administrators are being hired by holding companies, private institutions, healthcare systems and corporate entities that are opening schools. There isn't a DO administrator in the country that has a holding interest in the school they are opening or have opened. They are employees. Can you say they are complacent in the system of expansion, maybe? But I believe most DO deans, associate deans, admin, faculty, etc. ARE trying their best to have good schools and raise the degree to higher levels, whether it is a new school or one with 100+ years of existence. I have no problem with people having issues with the expansion of the profession, and many of my colleagues around the country completely agree that it is something that desperately needs to slow down, but to put this school expansion problem down at the level of the administrators at the schools is pointing the finger in the wrong direction.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

It's the only way I see to keep them employed and get them out of ER medicine without putting them into direct competition with new grads

Current grads more regularly doing fellowships that offer an out. Can do crit care, pain, addiction, palliative etc.

 

[Mad Jack]

Current grads more regularly doing fellowships that offer an out. Can do crit care, pain, addiction, palliative etc.

 

[Rogue42]

Anybody want to breakdown the chances of a male DO matching OBGYN cause it looks rough

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Anybody want to breakdown the chances of a male DO matching OBGYN cause it looks rough

Both males from my school who were seeking OBGYN matched successfully. It never hurts to try! Apply broadly, and have a back up plan.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Anybody want to breakdown the chances of a male DO matching OBGYN cause it looks rough

Like anything, depends on the app. OB will probably be rough for any DO with a red flag imo.

 

[gyngyn]

Anybody want to breakdown the chances of a male DO matching OBGYN cause it looks rough

Men are highly sought-after in the the OBG match.
The rest of your application will be the deciding factor (along with the program's take on the degree).

 

[DO2015CA]

Anybody want to breakdown the chances of a male DO matching OBGYN cause it looks rough

From my OB friends (all women), males are sought after in OB residency because it is such a women dominated field. One joked and even said they are URMs

 

[Rogue42]

Both males from my school who were seeking OBGYN matched successfully. It never hurts to try! Apply broadly, and have a back up plan.

Yeah, I am thinking of dual applying with family, but it is so difficult to put together two apps.