2015 Chapman University School of Pharmacy 1st Class starting 2015

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That reimbursement is close... for a successfully completed and documented CMR. It takes much more effort to get to this end point. Some questions I would ask of you...

What is the general acceptance rate of CMR offers? (aka how many patients do I need to try and complete one of these for before I actually get one to come in/call)

What is the allocated labor expense for non-successful CMRs? (time wasted trying to reach people, marketing costs, no show appointments etc.)

If you recognize that CMR eligibility volume at stores is too low to justify adding additional labor then how do you realistically expect these to be completed?

Where are the majority of CMR's being completed? (cough a call center cough)

How many Medicare plans just complete their own CMR's and not push them through various vendors that you mentioned? (Mirixia/OutcomesMTM)

What is a successful CMR, one that is completed or one that improves the patient's outlook? While there is certainly overlap, there are certainly CMRs in practice done in 5 minutes at a cash register because CMR completion rate it is the next thing my employer is asking for.

With the general landscape of healthcare shifting towards outcomes based payments, why are we pushing to implement a new FFS model? Does provider status really change anything for clinical pharmacists practicing in an ACO, in which the ACO believes in the value of the pharmacist?

Yes these are all legit concerns about MTM. How are leaders like you going to address all these problems with MTM currently being faced? And no it doesn't increase jobs to an extent to justify all the schools or expansions.

If you really want MTM and all this to take off, companies need to invest, take a hit and increase staffing so we can provide these services. At first profits will hurt but with time more will see you as MTM provider, counseling, questions, and business. But it takes time to grow and companies aren't investing in giving pharmacists the help or resources they need to effectively do MTM while performing dozens of other functions at the same time because the company wants to cut on techs or pharmacist hours.

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That reimbursement is close... for a successfully completed and documented CMR. It takes much more effort to get to this end point. Some questions I would ask of you...

Your questions are good ones, so I have put my answers after each of your questions.

What is the general acceptance rate of CMR offers? (aka how many patients do I need to try and complete one of these for before I actually get one to come in/call)

A: The average acceptance rate is around 30%. MTM is still not widely known about among patients, many patients are confused when a pharmacists calls them to make an appointment; especially since their view of pharmacists is just as a dispenser and the fact that they rarely get a patient consultation, and also because many patients don't trust their health insurance company and they see the offer of MTM as an intrusion.

What is the allocated labor expense for non-successful CMRs? (time wasted trying to reach people, marketing costs, no show appointments etc.)

A: These expenses are higher when a pharmacists tries to do them rather than the pharmacist using a pharmacy technician to do these. But even beyond that, these are all costs that service providers bear. You just do what you can to minimize them.

If you recognize that CMR eligibility volume at stores is too low to justify adding additional labor then how do you realistically expect these to be completed?

A: that's the big question. One way would be for a chain to hire 1 pharmacist to provide MTM for multiple stores. That way they have enough volume to cover their salary and benefits, plus provide some additional revenue for the store.

Where are the majority of CMR's being completed? (cough a call center cough)

A: if you say, which single location is providing the most MTM, then yes it is Call Centers. But that is because many individual pharmacies are not doing the MTM they have.

How many Medicare plans just complete their own CMR's and not push them through various vendors that you mentioned? (Mirixia/OutcomesMTM)

A: there are hundreds of Medicare plans out there, and yes many of them are doing them in house. But most are using pharmacists to do them, and secondly, many have had to go in house because community pharmacies weren't doing the cases.

What is a successful CMR, one that is completed or one that improves the patient's outlook? While there is certainly overlap, there are certainly CMRs in practice done in 5 minutes at a cash register because CMR completion rate it is the next thing my employer is asking for.

A: I think we are probably using two different definitions of CMR. A true CMR is a comprehensive review of the patients medications where you check each medication to make sure it is Indicated, Effective, Safe, and Convenient for the patient to use. Unless the patient only has two medications, it is impossible to do that in 5 minutes. You can do a Targeted intervention where you are only addressing one issue, but that isn't a CMR. Plus, MTM is meant to be more than the normal catching of DTP'd during the filling or dispensing process that pharmacists have been doing for decades.

With the general landscape of healthcare shifting towards outcomes based payments, why are we pushing to implement a new FFS model? Does provider status really change anything for clinical pharmacists practicing in an ACO, in which the ACO believes in the value of the pharmacist?

A: actually we really aren't pushing for FFS. It's just that FFS is what we have now, so that's all we can use. There is no doubt that MTM will be moved to the Pay for Performance model in the community pharmacy setting. It's easier to do that in the ACO setting. But it is tougher for a community pharmacy to have a defined population, since that would require the patient to only go to one pharmacy.
 
That reimbursement is close... for a successfully completed and documented CMR. It takes much more effort to get to this end point. Some questions I would ask of you...

Your questions are good ones, so I have put my answers after each of your questions.

What is the general acceptance rate of CMR offers? (aka how many patients do I need to try and complete one of these for before I actually get one to come in/call)

A: The average acceptance rate is around 30%. MTM is still not widely known about among patients, many patients are confused when a pharmacists calls them to make an appointment; especially since their view of pharmacists is just as a dispenser and the fact that they rarely get a patient consultation, and also because many patients don't trust their health insurance company and they see the offer of MTM as an intrusion.

What is the allocated labor expense for non-successful CMRs? (time wasted trying to reach people, marketing costs, no show appointments etc.)

A: These expenses are higher when a pharmacists tries to do them rather than the pharmacist using a pharmacy technician to do these. But even beyond that, these are all costs that service providers bear. You just do what you can to minimize them.

If you recognize that CMR eligibility volume at stores is too low to justify adding additional labor then how do you realistically expect these to be completed?

A: that's the big question. One way would be for a chain to hire 1 pharmacist to provide MTM for multiple stores. That way they have enough volume to cover their salary and benefits, plus provide some additional revenue for the store.

Where are the majority of CMR's being completed? (cough a call center cough)

A: if you say, which single location is providing the most MTM, then yes it is Call Centers. But that is because many individual pharmacies are not doing the MTM they have.

How many Medicare plans just complete their own CMR's and not push them through various vendors that you mentioned? (Mirixia/OutcomesMTM)

A: there are hundreds of Medicare plans out there, and yes many of them are doing them in house. But most are using pharmacists to do them, and secondly, many have had to go in house because community pharmacies weren't doing the cases.

What is a successful CMR, one that is completed or one that improves the patient's outlook? While there is certainly overlap, there are certainly CMRs in practice done in 5 minutes at a cash register because CMR completion rate it is the next thing my employer is asking for.

A: I think we are probably using two different definitions of CMR. A true CMR is a comprehensive review of the patients medications where you check each medication to make sure it is Indicated, Effective, Safe, and Convenient for the patient to use. Unless the patient only has two medications, it is impossible to do that in 5 minutes. You can do a Targeted intervention where you are only addressing one issue, but that isn't a CMR. Plus, MTM is meant to be more than the normal catching of DTP'd during the filling or dispensing process that pharmacists have been doing for decades.

With the general landscape of healthcare shifting towards outcomes based payments, why are we pushing to implement a new FFS model? Does provider status really change anything for clinical pharmacists practicing in an ACO, in which the ACO believes in the value of the pharmacist?

A: actually we really aren't pushing for FFS. It's just that FFS is what we have now, so that's all we can use. There is no doubt that MTM will be moved to the Pay for Performance model in the community pharmacy setting. It's easier to do that in the ACO setting. But it is tougher for a community pharmacy to have a defined population, since that would require the patient to only go to one pharmacy.

You are right we are using two different definitions of CMR. I am using the one that I actually get paid for and is in practice. As in the case of any business you do what it takes to get the benefit while limiting the cost to do it. The costs outweigh the benefits therefore they don't do them. If I have to pay someone $70 an hour to make my business $70/hr then what am I getting for the business, plus how do I pay myself for managing this person or providing them the infrastructure to do it on? Now if in order to get the $70 I can have a tech, or better yet a $0 cost IPPE/APPE student, click some boxes and type some words then maybe you'll see the businesses adopting them. Oh wait... I think some call centers might already be doing this! I missed the boat!

But seriously if you want the altruistic benefit of MTM you need to make the pharmacist (or technically whomever) be an employee of the business responsible for the benefit of MTM. Don't get me wrong community pharmacy loves adherence. CMR's.... if the benefit is a higher star rating or what I think we hope but haven't proven (see: AHRQ MTM study) better patient outcomes and lowered healthcare costs then you need those getting the benefits of the high star rating or lower healthcare costs taking on the cost. Once they do this (which you can argue they have through mandated Medicare regulation that you speak to) you'll see the race to the bottom begin, just like drug reimbursement. Your vendors you referenced will essentially start working like a PBM of pharmacy services, be the cost saving alternative to doing it on their own by providing size, scale, and squeezed reimbursement. Squeeze the reimbursement, squeeze the quality of the service... well you see where this is going...

But I guess thats what we want right?
 
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A: The average acceptance rate is around 30%. MTM is still not widely known about among patients, many patients are confused when a pharmacists calls them to make an appointment; especially since their view of pharmacists is just as a dispenser and the fact that they rarely get a patient consultation, and also because many patients don't trust their health insurance company and they see the offer of MTM as an intrusion.

You didn't really touch on what changes provider status would bring to one in an ACO but I will give you credit for a skillful dodge...

But I think you misunderstood my question here. I think you might be using the 30% completion rate - not really what I'm going after in "acceptance rate". While you and I are both probably aware there are many methods and tactics to actually complete a CMR, it at some point involves a patient "accepting" a pharmacist's (or tech's/interns) offer in order to complete one. There are multiple methods in which this could be done and it could actually be done multiple times and different ways to get that one patient to their completed CMR. So I will ask if this 30% is the frequency of occurrence of when a patient says "Yes! I'll come in tomorrow"/ "Yes! I've got time now" or is the 30% the aggregated number CMS put out on all of their medicare plans as their completion rate?
 
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Will you publicly acknowledge here that the Aggregate Demand Index is a measure created by the Pharmacy Workforce Center that is driven by the American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy (AACP)? Will you please have a large conflict of interest disclaimer posted?

As much as you are signaling about future positions opening up, its half the story and mixed with pure speculation. There are pharmacist positions being removed in consolidated hospital systems, retail pharmacies that are tightening SG&A and cost to fill expenses due to margin compression, and increased "clinical" positions being filled by a still climbing number of pharmacy residents (pay them 1/3 and make them work 2x!).

The Pharmacy Workforce Center is affiliated with AACP, not driven by them.

"The Pharmacy Workforce Center (PWC), formerly known as the Pharmacy Manpower Project, Inc., is a nonprofit corporation whose mission is to serve the public and the pharmacy profession by developing data regarding the size and demography of the pharmacy workforce and conducting and supporting research in related areas.

The PWC is comprised of the American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy, American College of Clinical Pharmacy, American Pharmacists Association, American Society of Health-System Pharmacists, Board of Pharmacy Specialties, Bureau of Health Workforce, National Alliance of State Pharmacy Associations, National Association of Boards of Pharmacy, National Association of Chain Drug Stores Foundation, National Community Pharmacists Association and Pharmacy Technician Certification Board."

I'm pretty sure you aren't trying to say that all of these different groups are in a conspiracy to make it seem like we have more pharmacy jobs than we really do.

As for your second point, yes all those things are true. There is some shrinkage in some pharmacy practice areas, but there are increases in other ones.

As for me, I would rather work hard to ensure we have a brighter future.
 
You didn't really touch on what changes provider status would bring to one in an ACO but I will give you credit for a skillful dodge...

But I think you misunderstood my question here. I think you might be using the 30% completion rate - not really what I'm going after in "acceptance rate". While you and I are both probably aware there are many methods and tactics to actually complete a CMR, it at some point involves a patient "accepting" a pharmacist's (or tech's/interns) offer in order to complete one. There are multiple methods in which this could be done and it could actually be done multiple times and different ways to get that one patient to their completed CMR. So I will ask if this 30% is the frequency of occurrence of when a patient says "Yes! I'll come in tomorrow"/ "Yes! I've got time now" or is the 30% the aggregated number CMS put out on all of their medicare plans as their completion rate?

I think you will agree that I have been very forthcoming with answering all questions. Earlier I was answer questions while watching my daughter's softball games, and now I'm taking time out of my weekend to answer questions while we are at the beach with her friends.

But thanks for reminding me about the question I missed.

National provider status will be huge for pharmacists in ACO, since it will encourage more ACO's to bring pharmacists on board to provide MTM. And there is the possibility that the nation will follow the California model and allow pharmacists to actually manage patients by initiating and modifying therapy, and ordering and interpreting labs. And for pharmacists who are embedded within Medical Groups who are under the current FFS model, this means more opportunities for pharmacists since the reimbursement will no longer be incident-to rates.

If I ever miss answering a question, feel free to let me know.
 
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You are right we are using two different definitions of CMR. I am using the one that I actually get paid for and is in practice. As in the case of any business you do what it takes to get the benefit while limiting the cost to do it. The costs outweigh the benefits therefore they don't do them. If I have to pay someone $70 an hour to make my business $70/hr then what am I getting for the business, plus how do I pay myself for managing this person or providing them the infrastructure to do it on? Now if in order to get the $70 I can have a tech, or better yet a $0 cost IPPE/APPE student, click some boxes and type some words then maybe you'll see the businesses adopting them. Oh wait... I think some call centers might already be doing this! I missed the boat!

But seriously if you want the altruistic benefit of MTM you need to make the pharmacist (or technically whomever) be an employee of the business responsible for the benefit of MTM. Don't get me wrong community pharmacy loves adherence. CMR's.... if the benefit is a higher star rating or what I think we hope but haven't proven (see: AHRQ MTM study) better patient outcomes and lowered healthcare costs then you need those getting the benefits of the high star rating or lower healthcare costs taking on the cost. Once they do this (which you can argue they have through mandated Medicare regulation that you speak to) you'll see the race to the bottom begin, just like drug reimbursement. Your vendors you referenced will essentially start working like a PBM of pharmacy services, be the cost saving alternative to doing it on their own by providing size, scale, and squeezed reimbursement. Squeeze the reimbursement, squeeze the quality of the service... well you see where this is going...

But I guess thats what we want right?

As for your first point, I guess you can call it what you want, but that doesn't make it a CMR.

As for your second point, I already mentioned that using a $70 an hour pharmacist to do the paperwork and schedule appointments, doesn't make much sense when you can use a $15-20/hour technician or an IPPE/APPE student. Or even start a residency program and have the tech and resident do the MTM.

You won't get any arguments from me that doing MTM while doing dispensing is close to impossible. But that wasn't the original topic of conversation.

As for Mirixa and Outcomes acting like traditional PBM's, that is a distinct possibility. And it is an absolute certainty if pharmacists aren't demonstrating any improved outcomes from their MTM services.

And I took your last question to be facetious, and thus you really weren't expecting an answer.
 
You didn't really touch on what changes provider status would bring to one in an ACO but I will give you credit for a skillful dodge...

But I think you misunderstood my question here. I think you might be using the 30% completion rate - not really what I'm going after in "acceptance rate". While you and I are both probably aware there are many methods and tactics to actually complete a CMR, it at some point involves a patient "accepting" a pharmacist's (or tech's/interns) offer in order to complete one. There are multiple methods in which this could be done and it could actually be done multiple times and different ways to get that one patient to their completed CMR. So I will ask if this 30% is the frequency of occurrence of when a patient says "Yes! I'll come in tomorrow"/ "Yes! I've got time now" or is the 30% the aggregated number CMS put out on all of their medicare plans as their completion rate?

Okay, here is the answer to your 30% question.

Completion requires a patient to accept one doing the MTM, and for one to actually have the MTM Visit, and for one to document what they did, and for one to submit the claim for payment.

The 30% doesn't take into consideration how many times you might have had to call before you talked to the patient, or the number of visits you had to reschedule. It's simply how many cases were documented and submitted for payment.

Technically the % of patients who ever said yes I will come in, is likely more than 30%, since some may initially say yes, but then not come in. And if they don't come in, no completed CMR claim can be submitted.

It's possible that I didn't understand your question. So if you feel I didn't answer it, then maybe you could restate it another way.
 
Even though there is an oversupply of pharmacists, why did you decide to open Chapman Pharmacy School?
 
Hello ChiAz, and thanks for your comment. I can see now how my comment might have misled you.

Since we are the first California school that requires the PCAT, we decided to be a little bit flexible by allowing students to be interviewed and accepted prior to taking the PCAT. However, the student's letter of admission clearly states that their admission is contingent on getting a sufficient score on the July PCAT. So there is no desperation here, just a realization that students were caught off guard by the fact that we require a PCAT, and the fact that many school counselors were still telling their students that no California schools require a PCAT, so the student must have misunderstood what they heard.

As for 5 years from now, or even 3 years from now. I will be glad to put our NAPLEX pass rate up against any other school out there.

Take the time to learn more about Chapman and you will see that we have excellent leadership, excellent faculty, excellent facilities, an excellent curriculum, and an excellent location.

Dr. Brown

Naplex has traditionally had above 80% percent passing rate. It tests minimal compentancy. Having a high passing rate does not say much, other than it minimally prepares your students to practice. Mr. Chapman university, why don't you "confidently" put your first classes' job placement rates against other school. There are currently very few jobs for new grads for the 9 existing schools. Pharmacists are lucky to get 32 hours of weekly work from the chains.

Sir, not only are you a sell out to the profession but also a thief.
 
Naplex has traditionally had above 80% percent passing rate. It tests minimal compentancy. Having a high passing rate does not say much, other than it minimally prepares your students to practice. Mr. Chapman university, why don't you "confidently" put your first classes' job placement rates against other school. There are currently very few jobs for new grads for the 9 existing schools. Pharmacists are lucky to get 32 hours of weekly work from the chains.

Sir, not only are you a sell out to the profession but also a thief.

You know if they posted that statistic, it wouldn't be truthful. For example: they could consider any graduate working in any field any amount of hours as "placed" and claim a 99 to 100% placement rate.
 
Naplex has traditionally had above 80% percent passing rate. It tests minimal compentancy. Having a high passing rate does not say much, other than it minimally prepares your students to practice. Mr. Chapman university, why don't you "confidently" put your first classes' job placement rates against other school. There are currently very few jobs for new grads for the 9 existing schools. Pharmacists are lucky to get 32 hours of weekly work from the chains.

Sir, not only are you a sell out to the profession but also a thief.

Check back in 3 years once our students graduate and get jobs. I'll be glad to post our job placement rates.

Calling me a sell out and a thief are strong words, but you are entitled to your opinion, and I always welcome it.
 
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perhaps a" thief " is too strong of a word, but a sell out? Would be hard to deny that for anyone, I hope even for yourself. Part of the oath that we all take as a pharmacists at our white coat ceremonies is to: do no harm for the pt and protect the profession. I hope that you recall that. You are breaking the latter of the oath. First let me back track, I have reviewed your credentials on Chapman's website and they are truly impressive. You are one of the few leaders that our profession has. With that said, I believe you are out of touch with what's it's like being a new grad/pharmacy profession, or simply choosing to ignore it. You are highly intelligent, so I have to assume the latter. You are selling young students on a fantasy of what you think pharmacy will be. Those ideas have been disproved in this thread by others who actually work in non academic pharmacy sectors. But, take it from someone has worked retail/inpatient/LTC/consulting, I attest to what has been said that your ideas of pharmacy are parallel to what a politicians says to get elected. But for some who are considering choosing your school, let me state a couple of realities of pharmacy. About 1/4 to 1/3 of new grads go to retail chains, and those jobs have dried up. Rite Aid and others are hiring part time only, 24 hours guaranteed and a lot of new grads aren't offered a chain job. If you poll any practicing RPh, he/she will tell you that students/grads of new schools are absolutely despised bc they are making currently pharmacists completely disposable and have worsened our working conditions to a level of unsafe, at times. About 10 to 15% of new grads enter residencies, and even those struggle to find full time jobs. This seems to be a new trend for new grads, struggle to find jobs that will provide full time hours. I can't imagine what will happen in 3-4 years when we add 4 more schools into the job applicant pool. I predict "pharmageddon" and independent pharmacies offering pharmacist 30 to 35 dollars an hour with no benefits.

Anyhow, I will see you in 3 years. Same thread, same time, same channel
 
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First
Government reports there will be 50,000 surplus pharmacists by 2025:

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/supplydemand/usworkforce/projections/pharmacists.pdf

First off, the only thing they based their numbers on were the number of prescriptions they anypticipate being filled in 2025. Although this is retail pharmacy accounts for the lion's share of pharmacy jobs out there, it doesn't account for the new positions that are emerging.

They even admit that in their report.

"There are some factors that will affect future demand but could not be accounted for in this forecasting model. For example, changes in reimbursement could incentivize pharmacists to provide extended counseling and other clinical services to patients, requiring more pharmacists to meet patient demand. The eventual elimination of the coverage gap for prescription drugs in Medicare Part D will also have a direct impact on the use of pharmaceutical services as greater access to prescription drug coverage will likely improve medication compliance and increase the demand for pharmacy professionals.5 Additional demand may also be seen from the increasing integration of clinical pharmacists onto medical teams in settings such as patient-centered medical homes, and into other more advanced clinical roles."

We need more pharmacists to be able to fill these emerging roles. I know many non-academic pharmacists who are currently filling these emerging roles in ACO's and PCMH's. But there are many more pharmacists needed to be able to provide the best care for patients.
 
Even though there is an oversupply of pharmacists, why did you decide to open Chapman Pharmacy School?

If you look at the Pharmacist Manpowr study, there is not an oversupply of pharmacists. There is slightly more jobs nationwide than there are pharmacists.

But in addition, we started Chapman because we feel there is a need for pharmacists who are better skilled at communicating with patients, providing care to patients, being an effective member of the health care team, and actually caring about patients. We are creating new pharmacists for a new era in Health Care.

Don't get mad at us for pushing the boundaries of what value pharmacists can bring to the health care system.
 
perhaps a" thief " is too strong of a word, but a sell out? Would be hard to deny that for anyone, I hope even for yourself. Part of the oath that we all take as a pharmacists at our white coat ceremonies is to: do no harm for the pt and protect the profession. I hope that you recall that. You are breaking the latter of the oath. First let me back track, I have reviewed your credentials on Chapman's website and they are truly impressive. You are one of the few leaders that our profession has. With that said, I believe you are out of touch with what's it's like being a new grad/pharmacy profession, or simply choosing to ignore it. You are highly intelligent, so I have to assume the latter. You are selling young students on a fantasy of what you think pharmacy will be. Those ideas have been disproved in this thread by others who actually work in non academic pharmacy sectors. But, take it from someone has worked retail/inpatient/LTC/consulting, I attest to what has been said that your ideas of pharmacy are parallel to what a politicians says to get elected. But for some who are considering choosing your school, let me state a couple of realities of pharmacy. About 1/4 to 1/3 of new grads go to retail chains, and those jobs have dried up. Rite Aid and others are hiring part time only, 24 hours guaranteed and a lot of new grads aren't offered a chain job. If you poll any practicing RPh, he/she will tell you that students/grads of new schools are absolutely despised bc they are making currently pharmacists completely disposable and have worsened our working conditions to a level of unsafe, at times. About 10 to 15% of new grads enter residencies, and even those struggle to find full time jobs. This seems to be a new trend for new grads, struggle to find jobs that will provide full time hours. I can't imagine what will happen in 3-4 years when we add 4 more schools into the job applicant pool. I predict "pharmageddon" and independent pharmacies offering pharmacist 30 to 35 dollars an hour with no benefits.

Anyhow, I will see you in 3 years. Same thread, same time, same channel

I appreciate your comments and your insight. And yes I do remember the oath I took. In fact we just had our inaugural class of students and the pharmacists in attendance at our white coat ceremony recite the oath.

And in fact what we are doing at Chapman is protecting our profession, because we are responding to the demands for pharmacists to expand the role they play in the health care system. Our patients continue to suffer unnecessarily because we don't have more pharmacists as members of the health care team who are there to make sure that each patients' medication regimen is optimized.

I know that it is scary out there for pharmacists right now. The old days of easy retail jobs are over. When I graduated, all chains cared about was did you have a license. But the world is different now. The chains are expecting more, and our patients deserve more.

And between you and me, since you read my bio, there is one other oath that I live by, and that is to not say any unkind words about my brother. I'm sure you remember hearing that somewhere as well. I'm not sure how long ago you graduated, so it could be that you don't remember. If so, I apologize. But if you email me at [email protected], I would be glad to let you know where you would have heard that phrase before.

Take care, and if you have time, let me know more about the unsafe conditions you feel are being caused by new graduates. That's something that definitely concerns me, and that I might be able to address during the rest of my year as APhA President.
 
I appreciate your comments and your insight. And yes I do remember the oath I took. In fact we just had our inaugural class of students and the pharmacists in attendance at our white coat ceremony recite the oath.

And in fact what we are doing at Chapman is protecting our profession, because we are responding to the demands for pharmacists to expand the role they play in the health care system. Our patients continue to suffer unnecessarily because we don't have more pharmacists as members of the health care team who are there to make sure that each patients' medication regimen is optimized.

I know that it is scary out there for pharmacists right now. The old days of easy retail jobs are over. When I graduated, all chains cared about was did you have a license. But the world is different now. The chains are expecting more, and our patients deserve more.

And between you and me, since you read my bio, there is one other oath that I live by, and that is to not say any unkind words about my brother. I'm sure you remember hearing that somewhere as well. I'm not sure how long ago you graduated, so it could be that you don't remember. If so, I apologize. But if you email me at [email protected], I would be glad to let you know where you would have heard that phrase before.

Take care, and if you have time, let me know more about the unsafe conditions you feel are being caused by new graduates. That's something that definitely concerns me, and that I might be able to address during the rest of my year as APhA President.

LB,
Why don't you silence all your doubters and provide us with a link to a job add for these "expanded role pharmacists" that you say are in demand? I'll take anything from OC Register/LATIMES/INDEED/CRAIGSLIST

Can't do it, huh? Again, you are living in a fantasy world of pharmacy or simply choosing to mislead young students. To answer your question, I have graduated 4 years ago, have been through the reality of a job hunt. You are choosing to disregard credible articles about pharmacists surplus from credible pharmacy magazines/colleagues/experts who actually work outside of the pharmacy academia. I have spoken to pharmacy educators, the consensus is that the shortage is now of top tier students and pharmacy educators.

I could address the rest of your comments, but I feel I have already done so in my last post.

Take care.
 
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Naplex has traditionally had above 80% percent passing rate. It tests minimal compentancy. Having a high passing rate does not say much, other than it minimally prepares your students to practice. Mr. Chapman university, why don't you "confidently" put your first classes' job placement rates against other school. There are currently very few jobs for new grads for the 9 existing schools. Pharmacists are lucky to get 32 hours of weekly work from the chains.

Sir, not only are you a sell out to the profession but also a thief.

Actually, there are 11 pharmacy schools in California.
 
LB,
Why don't you silence all your doubters and provide us with a link to a job add for these "expanded role pharmacists" that you say are in demand? I'll take anything from OC Register/LATIMES/INDEED/CRAIGSLIST

Can't do it, huh? Again, you are living in a fantasy world of pharmacy or simply choosing to mislead young students. To answer your question, I have graduated 4 years ago, have been through the reality of a job hunt. You are choosing to disregard credible articles about pharmacists surplus from credible pharmacy magazines/colleagues/experts who actually work outside of the pharmacy academia. I have spoken to pharmacy educators, the consensus is that the shortage is now of top tier students and pharmacy educators.

I could address the rest of your comments, but I feel I have already done so in my last post.

Take care.


Here's one in Ontario, CA. And below that is one in Missouri. I know that you are only interested in So Cal jobs, but there might be a pharmacist out there interested in the Missouri position. Just do a Google search for pharmacist jobs interdisciplinary team.


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Clinical Pharmacist - NAMM - Ontario, CA - 616648
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Position Description
North American Medical Management, California, Inc. (NAMM California) partnered with Optum in 2012. NAMM California and Optum share a common goal of bringing patients, physicians, hospitals and payers closer together in the mission to increase the quality, efficiency and affordability of care. NAMM California is a part of the family of companies that make UnitedHealth Group one of the leaders across most major segments of the US health care system. NAMM California develops and manages provider networks, offering a full range of services to assist physicians and other providers in supporting patient care coordination and their managed care business operations. For over 18 years, NAMM California has been an innovator in health care with a track record for quality, financial stability, extraordinary services and integrated medical management programs. NAMM California is well positioned to continually invest in its infrastructure and systems for the benefit of its provider clients and to accommodate the impending changes that will come forth from healthcare reform.
The NAMM California provider clients represent a network of almost 600 primary care physicians and over 3,000 specialists and work with the premier hospitals in their respective markets.
As a part of our continued growth, we are searching for a new Clinical Pharmacist to join our team.
In this role, you will be responsible for the implementation of specialized NAMM CA pharmacy programs such as Medication Reconciliation, Chemotherapy and Injectable review, and Polypharmacy.

This position works collaboratively with the NAMM CA Chief Medical Officer, Medical Director, Inpatient and Outpatient Management Team, Case Management, Information System staff and physician providers.

Primary Responsibilities:
  • Performs post-discharge medication reconciliation
  • Reviews and determines authorization for all injectable requests including but not limited to chemotherapy and biologics
  • Reviews pharmacy contracts and assists with negotiations
  • Prepares and analyzes pharmacy utilization reports
  • Provides pharmaceutical education and intervention to PMNI/NAMM CA PCPs and Specialists providers such as generic alternatives
  • Develops and implement pharmacy Quality Improvement activities.
  • Handles drug utilization review calls from physicians
  • Researches medical literatures and/or clinical guidelines
  • Addresses escalated issues with Medical Director or Health plan pharmacists
  • Polypharmacy management
  • Participates in interdisciplinary teams


Requirements
To be considered for this position, applicants need to meet the qualifications listed in this posting.
Required Qualifications:

  • Current and unrestricted pharmacist licensure (include state specific if required)
  • 3+ years of experience working as a clinical pharmacist
  • Ability to navigate MS Office and a Windows based environment and the ability to create, edit, save, and send documents utilizing Microsoft Word
  • Ability to navigate Outlook and conduct Internet searches
  • Experience conducting research and analysis
Preferred Qualifications:
  • PBM experience
  • Pharm D
  • Pharmacy residency experience

    Here is the one in Missouri

    Clinical Pharmacist
    Apply Now
    Company: Essence
    Location Maryland Heights, MO
    Date Posted: September 9, 2015
    Source: Essence

    Join Our Growing Team!

    Essence Healthcare serves the people who consume care, the professionals who provide care and the organizations that manage care. Our unique health insurance business provides consumers comprehensive and affordable coverage focused on wellness and personal service. By innovating at the leading edge of reimbursement, collaboration and clinical informatics, Essence Healthcare is leading the positive evolution of health care.



    Essence Healthcare™ offers people with Medicare comprehensive and affordable health insurance that focuses on wellness, care coordination and personal service. Essence’s Medicare Advantage HMOs bundle hospital, medical and prescription drug coverage together into one plan with one affordable monthly premium, and include additional benefits not covered under the Original Medicare program.

    The Clinical Pharmacist will provide medication therapy management (MTM) services for a Medicare Advantage population including one-on-one phone based consultations with members. Additional responsibilities include interfacing with the PBM, developing and analyzing pharmacy utilization reports, supporting the Pharmacy and Therapeutics Committee, and participating as a member of a care management interdisciplinary team.



    The Clinical Pharmacist will provide medication therapy management (MTM) services for a Medicare Advantage population including one-on-one phone based consultations with members. Additional responsibilities include interfacing with the PBM, developing and analyzing pharmacy utilization reports, supporting the Pharmacy and Therapeutics Committee, and participating as a member of a care management interdisciplinary team.

    • Perform medication review of members meeting Medicare Part D MTM eligibility criteria, develops pharmacotherapy plan of care and communicates plan to members and providers, as applicable.
    • Provide one-on-one phone based MTM consultations with members at member request.
    • Engage with members, care-givers, and providers to optimize drug treatment plans.
    • Document MTM interventions and assist with reporting MTM data elements as required by CMS.
    • Interface with the PBM on the coverage determination process reviewing pharmacy appeals/grievances, claims, and formulary maintenance.
    • Assist in the development and support of quality and utilization improvement programs aimed at improving adherence as well as safe and effective medication use.
    • Assist in the development and analysis of pharmacy utilization reports at a physician group level and physician-specific level. Make recommendations on ways to optimize pharmacotherapy utilization.
    • Develop written policies and procedures for the delivery of clinical pharmacy services.
    • Participate in care management as a member of an interdisciplinary team.
    • Maintain HIPAA standards and ensure confidentiality of protected health information.
    • Ensure compliance with all state and federal regulations and guidelines in day-to-day activities.
    • Perform special projects as assigned.
    • BS in Pharmacy, Pharm.D.preferred, with active pharmacist’s license in good standing
    • Minimum of one year clinical experience preferably in managed care or ambulatory care or successful completion of one or two years post-doctoral residency/fellowship
    • Medicare experience preferred
    Knowledge, skills, and ability required:
    • Strong verbal and written communication skills
    • Ability to effectively and efficiently discuss clinical information regarding medications from all sources (prescription, over-the-counter, herbal, etc.) in patient-friendly language.
    • Strong decision making skills
    • Ability to analyze and interpret data
    • Strong customer service skills
    • Strong computer skills including Microsoft Office
    • Ability to multi-task and self-motivate
    Benefits:

    In addition to competitive salaries, challenging work assignments, and developmental opportunities, Essence Healthcare offers employees a comprehensive benefits package to include medical, dental, vision, life insurance, short-term and long-term disability, paid time off (PTO), matching 401K, and tuition assistance.

    For more information on Essence Healthcare careers, please check out our web site: www.eghc.com/careers

    Essence Healthcare is an EEO/AA employer M/F/V/D.



 
I see that the average GPA of accepted applicants is 3.3. What is the average PCAT score of accepted applicants? What percent of admitted students have Baccalaureate degrees?
 
I see that the average GPA of accepted applicants is 3.3. What is the average PCAT score of accepted applicants? What percent of admitted students have Baccalaureate degrees?

The average PCAT score was 50th percentile composite.

About 80% of admitted students had a BS Degree.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Dr. Brown
 
My question to you is, how do you sleep at night knowing you'll be the cause of misery for thousands of people? Many grads from USC and Western are having to go as far as Crescent City and Mt Freaking Shasta to find a full time job. Not even CVS hires their own interns in Orange County.

Please answer the above question without using the following terms: Provider Status, MTM, Expanded Roles, Outcomes, and Clinical Pharmacists of Tomorrow.

Oh and Integral Part of The Healthcare Team™.
 
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The average PCAT score was 50th percentile composite.

About 80% of admitted students had a BS Degree.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Dr. Brown

Yeah I was wondering if a student with a 2.0 GPA, 10% PCAT but a lot of money from their lenders at JP Morgan would be considered competitive for your program. Pls. advise.
 
That's a great question. Since Chapman is the only school in Orange County, we have already gotten affiliation agreements with a large number of sites, and we continue to get more each week. We already have enough sites for our first class of 60 students, and we are close to having enough sites for when our class size reaches 100. Even though they won't be going on APPE rotations until 2019. We aren't leaving anything up to chance.

What are the confirmed sites where students will be doing their required health-system (hospital), acute care, and ambulatory care APPEs?
 
Last edited:
As for your second point, I already mentioned that using a $70 an hour pharmacist to do the paperwork and schedule appointments, doesn't make much sense when you can use a $15-20/hour technician or an IPPE/APPE student. Or even start a residency program and have the tech and resident do the MTM.

You won't get any arguments from me that doing MTM while doing dispensing is close to impossible. But that wasn't the original topic of conversation.

So, even you admit that MTM should not be a source of jobs for new pharmacists. That removes one of your reasons for believing opening up a new school to fill these mythical positions that new grads can aspire to be hired into.


If you look at the Pharmacist Manpowr study, there is not an oversupply of pharmacists. There is slightly more jobs nationwide than there are pharmacists.

Don't you think there is a conflict of interest when that study was funded by the ACPE?
 
Here's one in Ontario, CA. And below that is one in Missouri. I know that you are only interested in So Cal jobs, but there might be a pharmacist out there interested in the Missouri position. Just do a Google search for pharmacist jobs interdisciplinary team.


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Text this job
Clinical Pharmacist - NAMM - Ontario, CA - 616648
APPLY NOW
Position Description
North American Medical Management, California, Inc. (NAMM California) partnered with Optum in 2012. NAMM California and Optum share a common goal of bringing patients, physicians, hospitals and payers closer together in the mission to increase the quality, efficiency and affordability of care. NAMM California is a part of the family of companies that make UnitedHealth Group one of the leaders across most major segments of the US health care system. NAMM California develops and manages provider networks, offering a full range of services to assist physicians and other providers in supporting patient care coordination and their managed care business operations. For over 18 years, NAMM California has been an innovator in health care with a track record for quality, financial stability, extraordinary services and integrated medical management programs. NAMM California is well positioned to continually invest in its infrastructure and systems for the benefit of its provider clients and to accommodate the impending changes that will come forth from healthcare reform.
The NAMM California provider clients represent a network of almost 600 primary care physicians and over 3,000 specialists and work with the premier hospitals in their respective markets.
As a part of our continued growth, we are searching for a new Clinical Pharmacist to join our team.
In this role, you will be responsible for the implementation of specialized NAMM CA pharmacy programs such as Medication Reconciliation, Chemotherapy and Injectable review, and Polypharmacy.

This position works collaboratively with the NAMM CA Chief Medical Officer, Medical Director, Inpatient and Outpatient Management Team, Case Management, Information System staff and physician providers.

Primary Responsibilities:
  • Performs post-discharge medication reconciliation
  • Reviews and determines authorization for all injectable requests including but not limited to chemotherapy and biologics
  • Reviews pharmacy contracts and assists with negotiations
  • Prepares and analyzes pharmacy utilization reports
  • Provides pharmaceutical education and intervention to PMNI/NAMM CA PCPs and Specialists providers such as generic alternatives
  • Develops and implement pharmacy Quality Improvement activities.
  • Handles drug utilization review calls from physicians
  • Researches medical literatures and/or clinical guidelines
  • Addresses escalated issues with Medical Director or Health plan pharmacists
  • Polypharmacy management
  • Participates in interdisciplinary teams


Requirements
To be considered for this position, applicants need to meet the qualifications listed in this posting.
Required Qualifications:

  • Current and unrestricted pharmacist licensure (include state specific if required)
  • 3+ years of experience working as a clinical pharmacist
  • Ability to navigate MS Office and a Windows based environment and the ability to create, edit, save, and send documents utilizing Microsoft Word
  • Ability to navigate Outlook and conduct Internet searches
  • Experience conducting research and analysis
Preferred Qualifications:
  • PBM experience
  • Pharm D
  • Pharmacy residency experience

    Here is the one in Missouri

    Clinical Pharmacist
    Apply Now
    Company: Essence
    Location Maryland Heights, MO
    Date Posted: September 9, 2015
    Source: Essence

    Join Our Growing Team!

    Essence Healthcare serves the people who consume care, the professionals who provide care and the organizations that manage care. Our unique health insurance business provides consumers comprehensive and affordable coverage focused on wellness and personal service. By innovating at the leading edge of reimbursement, collaboration and clinical informatics, Essence Healthcare is leading the positive evolution of health care.



    Essence Healthcare™ offers people with Medicare comprehensive and affordable health insurance that focuses on wellness, care coordination and personal service. Essence’s Medicare Advantage HMOs bundle hospital, medical and prescription drug coverage together into one plan with one affordable monthly premium, and include additional benefits not covered under the Original Medicare program.

    The Clinical Pharmacist will provide medication therapy management (MTM) services for a Medicare Advantage population including one-on-one phone based consultations with members. Additional responsibilities include interfacing with the PBM, developing and analyzing pharmacy utilization reports, supporting the Pharmacy and Therapeutics Committee, and participating as a member of a care management interdisciplinary team.



    The Clinical Pharmacist will provide medication therapy management (MTM) services for a Medicare Advantage population including one-on-one phone based consultations with members. Additional responsibilities include interfacing with the PBM, developing and analyzing pharmacy utilization reports, supporting the Pharmacy and Therapeutics Committee, and participating as a member of a care management interdisciplinary team.
    • Perform medication review of members meeting Medicare Part D MTM eligibility criteria, develops pharmacotherapy plan of care and communicates plan to members and providers, as applicable.
    • Provide one-on-one phone based MTM consultations with members at member request.
    • Engage with members, care-givers, and providers to optimize drug treatment plans.
    • Document MTM interventions and assist with reporting MTM data elements as required by CMS.
    • Interface with the PBM on the coverage determination process reviewing pharmacy appeals/grievances, claims, and formulary maintenance.
    • Assist in the development and support of quality and utilization improvement programs aimed at improving adherence as well as safe and effective medication use.
    • Assist in the development and analysis of pharmacy utilization reports at a physician group level and physician-specific level. Make recommendations on ways to optimize pharmacotherapy utilization.
    • Develop written policies and procedures for the delivery of clinical pharmacy services.
    • Participate in care management as a member of an interdisciplinary team.
    • Maintain HIPAA standards and ensure confidentiality of protected health information.
    • Ensure compliance with all state and federal regulations and guidelines in day-to-day activities.
    • Perform special projects as assigned.
    • BS in Pharmacy, Pharm.D.preferred, with active pharmacist’s license in good standing
    • Minimum of one year clinical experience preferably in managed care or ambulatory care or successful completion of one or two years post-doctoral residency/fellowship
    • Medicare experience preferred
    Knowledge, skills, and ability required:
    • Strong verbal and written communication skills
    • Ability to effectively and efficiently discuss clinical information regarding medications from all sources (prescription, over-the-counter, herbal, etc.) in patient-friendly language.
    • Strong decision making skills
    • Ability to analyze and interpret data
    • Strong customer service skills
    • Strong computer skills including Microsoft Office
    • Ability to multi-task and self-motivate
    Benefits:

    In addition to competitive salaries, challenging work assignments, and developmental opportunities, Essence Healthcare offers employees a comprehensive benefits package to include medical, dental, vision, life insurance, short-term and long-term disability, paid time off (PTO), matching 401K, and tuition assistance.

    For more information on Essence Healthcare careers, please check out our web site: www.eghc.com/careers

    Essence Healthcare is an EEO/AA employer M/F/V/D.



I am not going to comment on the Missouri job, but let me comment on the first job. I think you need to look up the definition of the "in demand". Second, the one lone job that you were able to locate is at a PBM that requires "3 plus year of experience as a Clinical RPh" and a proffered residency. The new grads do not have the qualifications for this one job that you were able to find. So, your attempt to brainwash has failed again.

I think the saddest thing here is that you are the elected APhA president.

good day.
 
My question to you is, how do you sleep at night knowing you'll be the cause of misery for thousands of people? Many grads from USC and Western are having to go as far as Crescent City and Mt Freaking Shasta to find a full time job. Not even CVS hires their own interns in Orange County.

Please answer the above question without using the following terms: Provider Status, MTM, Expanded Roles, Outcomes, and Clinical Pharmacists of Tomorrow.

Oh and Integral Part of The Healthcare Team™.

I think he sleeps well with a nice fat pay check from Chapman.
 
Here are some other very nice comments from ACTUAL working RPh about the organization that you chose to be a part of.

http://drugtopics.modernmedicine.co...ny-pharmacy-schools-one-dean-says-no?page=0,1

  • AnonymousMar 1, 2015
    OK Mr. (Not Dr.?) Jordan, you want some data? Here's an anecdotal report: Since losing job to downsizing of staff have applied for over 60 positions in the past 4 months. Have received TWO phone calls and just ONE interview in that time (and there's nothing to fault in the resume, it shows consistent success and growth). Now if this were 1995 I would have received 60 job offers and a car or two BUT that's not what the market is all about now (and hasn't been since 2008). You are seriously delusional (now I know where ASHP got its current lack of brains) if you think there's a demand for that many more new pharmacists. Well, maybe new, more likely to accept a pittance for a wage, pharmacists will be in some demand for a while until the class action lawsuits filed by senior RPhs start paying out... Then the industry will head towards the final goal: eliminate RPhs completely in favor of pharmacy techs.
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  • AnonymousFeb 20, 2015
    Dr Ostrander, These deans live in their own little bubble and are only after their own interests. Furthermore, the revised curriculum designed to give pharmacists' a different and improvised clinical role in integrated health care has proven to be nothing but an extra barrier for current students. Why? Most pharmacy students have limited rotation sites, and will end up pursuing retail pharmacy. There just aren't enough opportunities nor niches for pharmacists to get creative. The current state of pharmacy is in chaos, and I have told my students whom once considered entering this field to look elsewhere. It really is highway robbery if you ask me. Tuition for this school, after living expenses is $75,000 per year, with no guaranteed check or employment upon graduation. Isn't that a shame? That's 4 years that students could have spent pursuing entrepreneurship, medical school, or engineering - something more fruitful and beneficial to society. There seems to be a shift away from compounding pharmacy in today's curriculum. That really is a sham as well. One can only hope that today's pharmacists can join together and lobby against this terrible decline of the field. Dr Wahlberg, PharmD, BCPS
 
My question to you is, how do you sleep at night knowing you'll be the cause of misery for thousands of people? Many grads from USC and Western are having to go as far as Crescent City and Mt Freaking Shasta to find a full time job. Not even CVS hires their own interns in Orange County.

Please answer the above question without using the following terms: Provider Status, MTM, Expanded Roles, Outcomes, and Clinical Pharmacists of Tomorrow.

Oh and Integral Part of The Healthcare Team™.

OMG just wanted to say that I'm like your biggest fan/stalker on reddit assuming you're using the same name.
 
Wow this was fun to read and all but all the naysayers are trying to get someone who is paid very well in a nice cushy job to recruit students to admit reality is futile in itself. I mean, the man gets PAID to say this stuff, he has it well rehearsed.
 
If you look at the Pharmacist Manpowr study, there is not an oversupply of pharmacists. There is slightly more jobs nationwide than there are pharmacists.

But in addition, we started Chapman because we feel there is a need for pharmacists who are better skilled at communicating with patients, providing care to patients, being an effective member of the health care team, and actually caring about patients. We are creating new pharmacists for a new era in Health Care.

Don't get mad at us for pushing the boundaries of what value pharmacists can bring to the health care system.

The Pharmacy Manpower Study is funded and run by the ACCP, the same organization whose members heavily benefit from students continuing to apply in droves. Bias does not inherently disqualify results, but they never publish their methodology or results. It is opaque.

Basically, imagine a drug study that has only an introduction and discussion section, with only scant information on the results and no information at all on the methods. This study was funded and conducted by a group that greatly benefits from positive results. If you got up and presented such a paper at a P&T committee you would be laughed out of the room, and no one would take the drug in question seriously despite good results.

So why do set the quality threshold so low for what we're willing to accept when talking about something as serious as our profession?
 
Wow this was fun to read and all but all the naysayers are trying to get someone who is paid very well in a nice cushy job to recruit students to admit reality is futile in itself. I mean, the man gets PAID to say this stuff, he has it well rehearsed.
You're missing the point. This guy flat out refuses to believe how it is out in the real world right now, and most other deans share his thoughts. The point of this is to discourage kids from going to pharmacy school and ESPECIALLY this school. The market is only going to get more and more saturated. Dr. Brown believes opening more schools won't be a problem. Dr. Brown and Chapman said they were only going to accept 60 students but decided to accept 79. Dr. Brown, Chapman University, the APhA, and any school that has opened their door or increased class size within the past 10 years are literally KILLING the profession by allowing less than spectacular students into their respective programs.
 
PS- if the Assistant Dean of the school feels the need to go on the internet and defend his school and his position, what does it say about the school?
 
You're missing the point. This guy flat out refuses to believe how it is out in the real world right now, and most other deans share his thoughts. The point of this is to discourage kids from going to pharmacy school and ESPECIALLY this school. The market is only going to get more and more saturated. Dr. Brown believes opening more schools won't be a problem. Dr. Brown and Chapman said they were only going to accept 60 students but decided to accept 79. Dr. Brown, Chapman University, the APhA, and any school that has opened their door or increased class size within the past 10 years are literally KILLING the profession by allowing less than spectacular students into their respective programs.

I disagree that most other deans share this POV, maybe the deans of the new schools. Real pharmacy educators of established schools have a consensus that the quality of pharmacy students has drastically declined and there is also a shortage of quality educators. I do agree with you that, like majority of the pharmacist posters, my goal was to inform perspective students about the reality of pharmacy career. I can say with a certainty that new schools and their students are despised and majority of respectable pharmacy directors will want to have zero association with their grads.
 
You're missing the point. This guy flat out refuses to believe how it is out in the real world right now, and most other deans share his thoughts. The point of this is to discourage kids from going to pharmacy school and ESPECIALLY this school. The market is only going to get more and more saturated. Dr. Brown believes opening more schools won't be a problem. Dr. Brown and Chapman said they were only going to accept 60 students but decided to accept 79. Dr. Brown, Chapman University, the APhA, and any school that has opened their door or increased class size within the past 10 years are literally KILLING the profession by allowing less than spectacular students into their respective programs.

Oh you're preaching to the choir :) I just say it like this because I hear the same from all faculty, it is very well rehearsed and you have to wonder why, it is because they HAVE to say this. No one wants you in the admin position if you say other wise. Now if he TRULY believes this, then we have a whole different problem on our hands.
But yes, I know and I already left pharmacy for these and many more reasons.
 
Oh you're preaching to the choir :) I just say it like this because I hear the same from all faculty, it is very well rehearsed and you have to wonder why, it is because they HAVE to say this. No one wants you in the admin position if you say other wise. Now if he TRULY believes this, then we have a whole different problem on our hands.
But yes, I know and I already left pharmacy for these and many more reasons.
Just curious, where are you working now?
 
So, even you admit that MTM should not be a source of jobs for new pharmacists. That removes one of your reasons for believing opening up a new school to fill these mythical positions that new grads can aspire to be hired into.




Don't you think there is a conflict of interest when that study was funded by the ACPE?

No I don't. I know the researchers personally, and I know the folks at AACP. They are just reporting the data that has come in.
 
PS- if the Assistant Dean of the school feels the need to go on the internet and defend his school and his position, what does it say about the school?

I think most people reading my post would say that it means a lot that an Associate Dean would take the time to try help readers hear the other side of the story, rather than just from the naysayers. And I think most have noticed and appreciated the fact that I have remained professional in spite of much name calling and defamations of my character.

And most of my post are not made with the intention of trying to convince the naysayer, but rather to provide better context for others who read my posts.

I post because I care.

It seems to me that you guys would like to be the only voice out there, and I don't see how that is healthy for the profession.
 
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I think most people reading my post would say that it means a lot that an Associate Dean would take the time to try help readers hear the other side of the story, rather than just from the naysayers. And I think most have noticed and appreciated the fact that I have remained professional in spite of much name calling and defamations of my character.

And most of my post are not made with the intention of trying to convince the naysayer, but rather to provide better context for others who read my posts.

I post because I care.

It seems to me that you guys would like to be the only voice out there, and I don't see how that is healthy for the profession.

Larry, you sound like a nice guy, perhaps with good intentions. Just stuck at the wrong place, at the VERY wrong time.

It's hard to take you seriously and say positive things about you when numerous pharmacists are struggling so much, especially the new grads to find jobs all due to oversupply. Yet, you speak about protecting the profession/health of the profession. You are adding to the problem
 
Serious question Dr. Brown. How do you expect your students to pay off their at least $141,000 in debt in a reasonable time? Please don't use scholarships or other financial aid as MOST students don't receive all that much help. And what do you and the school do with the $14,000,000 plus in tuition collected over the three years from 117 students?
 
I am not going to comment on the Missouri job, but let me comment on the first job. I think you need to look up the definition of the "in demand". Second, the one lone job that you were able to locate is at a PBM that requires "3 plus year of experience as a Clinical RPh" and a proffered residency. The new grads do not have the qualifications for this one job that you were able to find. So, your attempt to brainwash has failed again.

I think the saddest thing here is that you are the elected APhA president.

good day.

You asked me to find you a position and I did. You didn't stipulate the requirements. But regarding the requirements, of course students will need to do a residency to get most of these jobs early on. But as physician groups get more comfortable with hiring pharmacists, the 3-year requirement will go away.

But as I said before, these emerging roles jobs are out there, and many more will become available over the years. And even more will be created if we get provider status.

I spent my Wednesday morning on Capital Hill lobbying CA Congressman to co sponsor House Bill 592 and Senate Bill 314. What have you done to help expand opportunities for pharmacists?
 
You're missing the point. This guy flat out refuses to believe how it is out in the real world right now, and most other deans share his thoughts. The point of this is to discourage kids from going to pharmacy school and ESPECIALLY this school. The market is only going to get more and more saturated. Dr. Brown believes opening more schools won't be a problem. Dr. Brown and Chapman said they were only going to accept 60 students but decided to accept 79. Dr. Brown, Chapman University, the APhA, and any school that has opened their door or increased class size within the past 10 years are literally KILLING the profession by allowing less than spectacular students into their respective programs.

It's nice that you are at least being honest. The goal with you guys is to decrease the competition for the pharmacy jobs out there. You are ready have your Pharm.D., but you want to prevent other students from being able to do the same.

And regarding the 79 students we brought in this Fall, we didn't try to bring in 79 students. Other schools told us that they have a 30% melt of students before classes start. This means that 30% of deposited students at most schools end up not coming the first day of class. So we accepted 87 deposits, think we would likely lose 25 students, but maybe a few more since we are a new school. But amazingly, only 8 students didn't show up for orientation. You can read into that what you want. But what we think it says is that students are excited about the unique pharmacy program we have to offer, so much so that they were willing to take the risk that we were a new school and didn't have candidate status yet.

And on your last point, all of our students are spectacular, because they have demonstrated the desire to actually care about the patients they will serve, the ability to communicate well, and the ability to work well in a team. These are the skills that will be in high demand. Knowing a lot is no longer enough.
 
Serious question Dr. Brown. How do you expect your students to pay off their at least $141,000 in debt in a reasonable time? Please don't use scholarships or other financial aid as MOST students don't receive all that much help. And what do you and the school do with the $14,000,000 plus in tuition collected over the three years from 117 students?

The same way I pay off the $100k in student loans I had when I graduated in 1999. Slowly, over time.

As for your last question, it's obvious that you don't know how academia works. The pharmacy school is part of a University, so we only get part of the money that comes in from tuition. The money we get goes into salaries, technology, supplies, and other expenses associated with educating the next generation of pharmacists. The other money needed to run the schools comes from research grants.
 
Larry, you sound like a nice guy, perhaps with good intentions. Just stuck at the wrong place, at the VERY wrong time.

It's hard to take you seriously and say positive things about you when numerous pharmacists are struggling so much, especially the new grads to find jobs all due to oversupply. Yet, you speak about protecting the profession/health of the profession. You are adding to the problem

I have both a PharmD and a PhD, but if you find it necessary to be condensending and call my Larry or LB when we are not on familiar terms that fine. I've been called worse.

And quite honestly, im sure you are a great guy as well. You have just let bitterness fill you rather than taking control of your life and making something positive happen.

You seem to want to be a good pharmacist, but how can you, when you are filled with so much anger. How can you provide patient-centered care to patients when a dark cloud seems to hover above you.

There are opportunities for you out there, and I am sure that you have what it takes to do some serious self-reflection and make the positive changes necessary to lead you down the path to success. It's hard to do, but it's important.

Take care and good luck,
 
I have both a PharmD and a PhD, but if you find it necessary to be condensending and call my Larry or LB when we are not on familiar terms that fine. I've been called worse.

And quite honestly, im sure you are a great guy as well. You have just let bitterness fill you rather than taking control of your life and making something positive happen.

You seem to want to be a good pharmacist, but how can you, when you are filled with so much anger. How can you provide patient-centered care to patients when a dark cloud seems to hover above you.

There are opportunities for you out there, and I am sure that you have what it takes to do some serious self-reflection and make the positive changes necessary to lead you down the path to success. It's hard to do, but it's important.

Take care and good luck,


LB,
First, I was not being condescending by calling you by your first name. I am too, a Pharm.D., with a clinical title in a top 100 US hospital. If you need to be called "Dr" to boost your ego, you should have let us know.

Second, since you asked what I did on Wednesday morning, I was working a clinical pharmacist shift at my hospital. My hospital also precepts 4 students from three CA pharmacy schools. All of my students have expressed their concerns about job availability and opening of new schools. My concern is for them, not myself. I am earning an honest living and working a highly respected job. I am afraid the future generation of grads will not have this opportunity.

I think we both have said what we wanted. So, I will leave it at that.

Take care and good luck to you, as well.
 
LB,
First, I was not being condescending by calling you by your first name. I am too, a Pharm.D., with a clinical title in a top 100 US hospital. If you need to be called "Dr" to boost your ego, you should have let us know.

Second, since you asked what I did on Wednesday morning, I was working a clinical pharmacist shift at my hospital. My hospital also precepts 4 students from three CA pharmacy schools. All of my students have expressed their concerns about job availability and opening of new schools. My concern is for them, not myself. I am earning an honest living and working a highly respected job. I am afraid the future generation of grads will not have this opportunity.

I think we both have said what we wanted. So, I will leave it at that.

Take care and good luck to you, as well.

Thanks for the work you do taking care of patients.

I'm not hung up on being called Dr., but either no name or Mr. would have been more appropriate than Larry since we don't know each other.

I hope that you will keep an open mind if you get Chapman students at your site. We really are doing our best to produce excellent students.

And do me the favor of realizing that not all new pharmacy schools are the same. We have a high quality leadership team, a high quality faculty who have already brought in over 2 million in external funding, state of the art facilities, and an innovative curriculum and andragogy. (Yes I know that sounds like a sales pitch, but I figured that you would feel that if there is going to be a new school, at least they have their act together.)

We both want the same thing. High quality care for our patients.

If you see me at a Pharmacy meeting, make sure to stop me and say hello. I'd be glad to stop and talk with you.
 
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