cat food?

[suckerfree]

I was wondering if I could get some advice as to what the current recommendations being taught in vet school are or by currently practicing veterinarians...

I have a 1 year old, 7 pound, domestic short hair tabby mix that I adopted. Some days she eats the fancy feast I give her, other days I give her only cereal. I tend to feed her 2-3 times per day, morning, evening, night.

I have been told conflicting guidelines. One vet said give only wet food because it has higher protein and the cereal is mostly just carbs and will make her diabetic in the long term.

I've also heard that its okay to give only cereal because wet food will cause tartar build up and I don't brush my cat's teeth on a regular basis, and that there's actually minimal chance of my cat becoming diabetic.

I don't know how to reconcile conflicting recommendations so I thought I'd ask here.

Thanks!

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[WhtsThFrequency]

Cats are obligate carnivores....cereal is NOT an appropriate food by any stretch of the imagination - they absolutely require protein in their diet. Dental care can be slightly easier using crunchy hard food - but honestly not very much. I'm skeptical of dental diets, myself. You might also want to look into a higher quality brand than Fancy Feast as well - most "grocery store" brands are pretty nutritionally inferior.

 

[suckerfree]

what options do i have aside from grocery store fancy feast? She's a really picky eater. I make it a point only to get the pate without the gravy because those gravys are little more than corn starch syrups that are of little nutritional value and only provide her extra unnecessary sugar. Thanks again!

Also, is it bad to give cereal some days and wet food other days?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

**edited, see post below** do we mean cereal = dry cat food? not as in cereal?

there are tons of options...I know cats can be notoriously picky, but think about it - little kids would love to eat twinkies and peanut butter cups all day, but that doesn't mean we should let them eat junk food all the time, know what I mean? Sometimes it takes a while to find a good food, and even then you need to give em a little tough love, haha.

http://cats.about.com/cs/catfood/a/tipsforchoosing.htm

most important:

What to look for on the label

* Compliance with AAFCO's requirements for "Complete and Balanced," as evidenced by that wording on the label.
* Named protein source - look for "chicken, lamb, or beef," rather than "meat."
* On canned food particularly, the protein source should be the first listed ingredient
* Check the expiration date for freshness

What to avoid

* Words such as "By-products," "meat and/or bone meal," "animal digest," most other descriptions including "digest" or "meal," and added sugars.
* Chemical preservatives, including BHA, BHT, ethoxyquin, and propyl gallate
* Corn meal as a filler
* Excess of carbohydrate "fillers" (Dry food can contain as much as 50 percent grain)

Wet food indeed can be better for older cats simply because it keeps their water intake up (for renal issues) and (generally speaking) has a higher protein level than dry. Recent research has been going against the previous assertions that cats with mild to moderate renal dysfunction need low protein diets (different story for actual end stage renal failure and certain specific conditions, though).

 

[Tco87]

what options do i have aside from grocery store fancy feast? She's a really picky eater. I make it a point only to get the pate without the gravy because those gravys are little more than corn starch syrups that are of little nutritional value and only provide her extra unnecessary sugar. Thanks again!

Also, is it bad to give cereal some days and wet food other days?

By "cereal", do you mean dry cat food? I've never heard it referred to that way, but I find it hard to believe you're feeding your cat Cheerios
The number one diet that's recommended at the practice that I work at is Science Diet, which can be found in pet stores, but I'm not sure about grocery stores.
Other diets that are recommended, or at least not frowned upon, are Royal Canin, Purina, and IAMS.

There's nothing wrong with feeding dry food and wet food on different days, but it's usually recommended to keep your pets on a fairly normal feeding schedule.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

By "cereal", do you mean dry cat food?

Ha I did not even think of that....I have only heard cereal in reference to cattle feed so I was confused!! Do you mean dry cat food? If so, then yes it is fine to feed dry food some days and wet other days. Apologies if i misinterpreted!!

Hm. Maybe I should leave my Science Diet opinion out of this though....as touted as it is by practices and schools....bleh...although all of those brands push their stuff, just like any human pharm company. Honestly I think the newer generations of vets *are* beginning to frown upon, or at least question, the usual "recommended" diets....for too long we've just stuck by what we are used to with no nutrition research/analysis being considered, just what brands we were taught in school. epic fail!

Electrophile, wanna join in? lol!

Innova, California Natural, Blue, Wellness, Natural Balance, etc...quite good choices.

 

[eventualeventer]

WhtsThFrequency, out of curiosity, do you know anything about Wysong pet food? Their website seems a little hippy-dippy, but my cat who was losing weight and looking like crap last fall actually started eating better and putting weight back on when I switched her to Vitality in December.

For background, my 17 y.o. cat also has CRI/CRF (last creatinine ~2.4) and digestive issues. She does not like kidney diet low protein foods and I do not see the point in starving a 17 y.o. cat with poor muscle mass and low fat stores to make her eat the new food (I honestly am surprised that I did not end up having to euthanize her by now). I am in "hospice" mode -- I want her to eat what will make her happy and keep weight on her without making her throw up all the time.

I'd also be interested in what you've been reading/learning about current thinking on diet in renal failure, since this is the second cat that I'm (slowly) losing to renal failure. ETA: I'm NOT asking for advice on what to do with my current medical trainwreck cat. She's happy with her crunchies and her crap gooshy food (Friskies)(she only eats one flavor of one brand) from the grocery store, so even if that's not what is "ideal" for her to eat I'm going to let her keep at it unless she starts having more digestive problems.

P.S. I call them crunchies and gooshy food for dry and wet food, respectively. The horses get grain regardless of whether it's actually ration balancer, alfalfa pellets, etc.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Yes, I have heard of Wysong...I think they produce good food, the only other things I have heard is that they may have had a quality control issue but that was years ago.

Definitely, for a cat that has become anorectic from renal failure, anything you can get them to eat works. When it gets to that point, it is more a matter of getting calories into them than the perfect protein ratio.

It was series of Penn and Colorado studies I believe with regards to protein in renal compromised cats....I don't have it on me but will see if I can find it if I squeeze in some extra time. It is probably pub-Med-able. They found that restricted protein had no effect on prevention of renal failure and ultimately did not affect disease progression (the whole restricted protein idea had been taken from human medicine). What is comes down to is that yes, more protein makes the kidneys do more "work"....but the other problem is that a) you are losing protein in the urine anyway, so keeping them on a low protein diet lowers their overall protein intake even more 2) keeping renal cats in good body condition is ESSENTIAL, especially once appetitie starts to go, and you need protein to do that, and 3)quality is a huge issue along with ash, not protein itself--->

Some high protein diets (low quality diets as a whole) also have a high ash content, and the thought process and studies suggest that it is THAT (phosphorous specifically, I believe) is what contributes to renal problems when you feed a high protein diet to a renal cat. Not the protein itself. the problem is, previous thoughts on the matter did not take ash into account so protein got a bad name! Of course, higher protein inherently means a slightly higher ash content than non protein, but some food have either high quality protein with less ash or have reduced the ash in the diet.

So a normal or even slightly high "dose" of good quality protein with low phosphorous/ash is totally appropriate for a cat with renal issues, in my mind. Ash may not be printed on many labels though so googling may be in order lol

 

[suckerfree]

Yes, by cereal I meant dry food, not honey nut cheerios, that is what I usually have for breakfast when my kitty joins me in the morning. I was giving her veterinary science diet cereal but again, I was told that long term the cat may become diabetic especially since she has been deemed as having a propensity for weight gain. I think her body habitus at current is a 5 on that scale you guys use, and she gained about 2 or 3 pounds since I adopted her about 2 months ago. Also, how much should I play with her? I feel guilty because I have a 1 bedroom unit and she only seems to sleep about 15 hours a day and I am at the hospital a lot. Maybe I should get a second kitten? I feel like my place isn't big enough for two of them.

Anyways, what are your thoughts on 1 can of fancy feast per day, half in morning, half in evening, followed by one small bowl of cereal at night? I think this diet might work in the long term. Also, my cat doesn't eat much unless I'm sitting with her. Is it normal for most cats to be "social eaters"?

 

[sunshinevet]

Yes, I have heard of Wysong...I think they produce good food, the only other things I have heard is that they may have had a quality control issue but that was years ago.

Definitely, for a cat that has become anorectic from renal failure, anything you can get them to eat works. When it gets to that point, it is more a matter of getting calories into them than the perfect protein ratio.

It was series of Penn and Colorado studies I believe with regards to protein in renal compromised cats....I don't have it on me but will see if I can find it if I squeeze in some extra time. It is probably pub-Med-able. They found that restricted protein had no effect on prevention of renal failure and ultimately did not affect disease progression (the whole restricted protein idea had been taken from human medicine). What is comes down to is that yes, more protein makes the kidneys do more "work"....but the other problem is that a) you are losing protein in the urine anyway, so keeping them on a low protein diet lowers their overall protein intake even more 2) keeping renal cats in good body condition is ESSENTIAL, especially once appetitie starts to go, and you need protein to do that, and 3)quality is a huge issue along with ash, not protein itself--->

Some high protein diets (low quality diets as a whole) also have a high ash content, and the thought process and studies suggest that it is THAT (phosphorous specifically, I believe) is what contributes to renal problems when you feed a high protein diet to a renal cat. Not the protein itself. the problem is, previous thoughts on the matter did not take ash into account so protein got a bad name! Of course, higher protein inherently means a slightly higher ash content than non protein, but some food have either high quality protein with less ash or have reduced the ash in the diet.

So a normal or even slightly high "dose" of good quality protein with low phosphorous/ash is totally appropriate for a cat with renal issues, in my mind. Ash may not be printed on many labels though so googling may be in order lol

The main pushing point of diets such as Hills k/d and RC Renal is the low phosphorus, because phosphorus has been shown to be the strongest factor in accelerating kidney disease.

I find your opinion of Science diet interesting. ALL of the hills products have undergone AFFCO feeding and nutritional analysis trials, which is far more than the vast majority of pet food. Given they also employ over 200 veterinarians worldwide to help formulate their food, I place a lot more faith in Hill's than I would the vast majority of pet food brands. And no, this isn't my brainwashed "vet school" opinion - this is my opinion from working in practice for 6 years and getting consistantly great results with it.

Another thing to note is that the protein content listed on wet food labels needs to be converted to the dry weight equivilent before it can be compared to dry food, and then if you get a high quality dry food, it should be roughly equal.

I would say her risk of becoming diabetic is more from being morbidly obese than from eating dry food. (Are you using a /5 BCS scale? Because thats what I took it as. If your using /9, i guess thats not so bad). If this were my cat, I would put her on RC or Hill's weight loss foods - the r/d, or if I were really worried about diabetes, the m/d - it changes their metabolism so they metabolise fat preferentially, as its a low-carb diet. They come in both a wet and dry food. BUT THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.

 

[turnandburn]

What to avoid

* Words such as "By-products," "meat and/or bone meal," "animal digest," most other descriptions including "digest" or "meal," and added sugars.
* Chemical preservatives, including BHA, BHT, ethoxyquin, and propyl gallate
* Corn meal as a filler
* Excess of carbohydrate "fillers" (Dry food can contain as much as 50 percent grain)

Why should by products and meals etc be avoided?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I did not say all meals should be avoided, and I think byproducts are a complicated issue: Meals are not inherently bad, it just means a concentrated protein option - the issue is the "named" meals with a definite protein source as compared to "animal meal" or "meat meal" which could be anything.

By products are a tricky business, and I do think there is leeway (ie I think the article, although quite good, overstates some things). I mean, in the wild animals eat byproducts all the time, right? The problem is quality control with a lot of the byproducts in today's farming/processing environment.

I think SD's **prescription diets** have some good research behind them, I will say that. However, just look at the ingredients on the normal kibbles...maybe it is just my personal preference, but it's just chock full of fillers.

Another thing to note is that the protein content listed on wet food labels needs to be converted to the dry weight equivilent before it can be compared to dry food, and then if you get a high quality dry food, it should be roughly equal.

Yes, even after converting to DMB, wet food generally has a bit more protein.

And the whole AAFCO stuff is also tricky Sure a pet food HAS to pass it - you shouldn't be feeding it if it has not. However, the requirements to fulfill a feeding trial are not very high at all. So yes, it has to pass it. But just because it passed does not *automatically* make it a wonderful food.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I would say her risk of becoming diabetic is more from being morbidly obese than from eating dry food.

Yes!

It is odd that your cat won't eat without you there hah! Funny, my dog does that but my cat doesn't care Cats are (in general) not as social as dogs because they are not pack-oriented.

Getting another cat may not be the best solution. Someone once told me if you get another dog to keep your lonely dog company, you're just going to have two lonely dogs. But more playing is always good. It doesn't even have to be playing, you could just be petting her on the couch watchin tv - interaction is the key. You can also probably find some interactive toys that may help her be more active (treat puzzles, the toy that has the ball in the ring, forget what it is called ha) Some cats really like those.

 

[eventualeventer]

Thank you for the interesting and informative discussion!

Meatbag (RIP) and Flealoaf (said high-maintenance cat), who were from the same litter and born to "teenage parents", both rely/relied a lot on human interaction but were grumpy with each other and other cats. They loved to be petted before eating and would eat much less, if at all, if left alone. Cicely, the new cat, has no compunctions about eating by herself, in company, in the dark, in the light . . . hence, I have one skinny cat who has to be coddled and coaxed to eat (and also has food around all the time because she eats 3 bites and wanders off), and one obese cat who hoovers everything in sight. Sigh. I tried to implement a program of feeding Flealoaf multiple times a day when Cicely was sleeping or outside and then picking up the food, but my mom kept forgetting to pick up the food.

 

[Electrophile]

Hm. Maybe I should leave my Science Diet opinion out of this though....as touted as it is by practices and schools....bleh...although all of those brands push their stuff, just like any human pharm company. Honestly I think the newer generations of vets *are* beginning to frown upon, or at least question, the usual "recommended" diets....for too long we've just stuck by what we are used to with no nutrition research/analysis being considered, just what brands we were taught in school. epic fail!

Electrophile, wanna join in? lol!

Innova, California Natural, Blue, Wellness, Natural Balance, etc...quite good choices.

As a future nutritionist, agreed. You have to think of things in terms of ingredients and food as being more than the sum of its parts. Human nutritionists are really getting back to this point (looking at eating fresh, wholesome, unprocessed or minimally processed foods instead of just taking a vitamin supplement and hoping it will all balance out in the end) where I feel some animal/veterinary nutritionists are rather behind on this.