Caribbean worth it for US MD dropout?

[mrbreakfast]

If it's still within SOL, you should go to court, preferably federal court, if you can establish that you are from a different state.

There is established legal precedent (including a supreme court case, and a federal case a few years ago) that courts will defer to professionalism standards/judgements set by medical schools, even if the actual standards are vague. The courts will only overturn a dismissal for professionalism if its grounds clearly fall well outside the standards for the academic profession. OP will essentially have to demonstrate that, had whatever transpired occurred at any other medical program, he would not have been disciplined.

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[srirachamayonnaise]

There is established legal precedent (including a supreme court case, and a federal case a few years ago) that courts will defer to professionalism standards/judgements set by medical schools, even if the actual standards are vague. The courts will only overturn a dismissal for professionalism if its grounds clearly fall well outside the standards for the academic profession. OP will essentially have to demonstrate that, had whatever transpired occurred at any other medical program, he would not have been disciplined.

Well, this looks like more of an evidentiary difficulty than a legal challenge. I assume most schools won't be interested in testifying against another school. Also, "at any other medical program." is the threshold? or plaintiff only has to prove that "at another program," they would not have been disciplined?

 

[mrbreakfast]

Well, this looks like more of an evidentiary difficulty than a legal challenge. I assume most schools won't be interested in testifying against another school. Also, "at any other medical program." is the threshold? or plaintiff only has to prove that "at another program," they would not have been disciplined?

It's hard to say, but the two cases I mentioned (Horowitz v. Bd. of Curators of Univ. of Mo., Al-Dabagh v. CWRU) both note a standard that courts may only overturn such judgements if they are deemed "arbitrary and capricious," and the latter, citing a different case, notes they cannot overturn a judgement by a professionalism committee "...unless it is such a substantial departure from accepted academic norms as to demonstrate that the committee responsible did not actually exercise professional judgment." That can be interpreted so loosely that I would imagine a plaintiff would need to provide a quorum of sorts of medical school opinions. All speculation, though.

 

[Psych1912]

I am so sorry OP you are going through this. Please do not go to the Caribbean though. Even if you do everything right, pass all your USMLEs on the first attempt, and don't fail any classes, the dismissal is going to be huge red flag that is going to keep you from basically every residency in the country. I suppose it may depend on what the professionalism issue was, but it is hard enough to match as an IMG even if you don't have something like that on your record holding you back. I know it seems like things are bad right now and can't get any worse, but if you want an idea of what it is like to have graduated from one of these schools and not match into a residency, PM me and I can give you a perspective on just how bad it can get.

I don't know much about what your options are with getting reinstated at your medical school or reapplying to a stateside school but I would say this is your only reasonable bet. Caribbean schools exist because they know not getting into a US medical school or in your case getting dismissed from one is a incredibly stressful experience to put it lightly. They then use this to take advantage of people who are in an emotionally vulnerable place feeling like they have no other options. Once again, I am really so sorry this has happened to you and I truly hope that you can find a way back into medicine without having to go to a Caribbean program.

 

[MrBigglesworth]

Have you thought of PA or NP route? Honestly might not be such a bad thing

 

[Piskaupf]

Have you thought of PA or NP route? Honestly might not be such a bad thing

Nah not for me

 

[ACSurgeon]

Have you thought of PA or NP route? Honestly might not be such a bad thing

I don’t know. If I thought I was gonna be a doctor and all of a sudden something happened where I couldn’t be a doctor I don’t think i’d want to be a doctor’s underling. I’d honestly probably try to do something entirely unrelated. I wouldn’t want the constant reminder of what I almost had.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Also something I’ve considered. Med school was a calling for me since day 1 though and i really want to ensure I’ve exhausted all my options before I forfeit that dream that i sank 10+ years of my life and 200k+ money into. Law simply doesnt catch my passion like medicine

It’s one thing to do your research and exhaust your options in terms of asking PDs or reading match outcomes or whatever you need to accept that you practicing medicine in America has an essentially zero chance of happening if you go offshore.

If you want to ensure you’ve exhausted all your options by actually going down the Caribbean route, you’d have to sink another 5-10 years and $200-300k. At some point it makes more sense to cut your losses and move on.

 

[ACSurgeon]

It’s easy to try to convince a faceless person of this on the internet. Everything will only ever be a compromise though. Something I had to settle for because my life goal was derailed. couldn’t ever feel good when I’m 50 and looking back on things. But thanks for the encouragement

It true. It’s easy for us to say give up and move on. It’ll be emotionally hardest for you. Whether you move on or try the Caribbean route, you’re gonna pay the price (financial and emotional) and reap any benefits. That’s why you should verify the information to make sure you’ve done your due diligence before you decide.

For what it’s worth, this feeling you describe of “medicine is the only thing I can do” and defining yourself through this profession is something I experienced as a premed, med student and to a lesser extent as a resident. However, as an attending you get to the point where you see the bigger picture. Maybe it’s having kids. Maybe it was leaving academia and working at a community hospital. Either way, my view is now a job that I enjoy and it pay very well. I definitely do NOT define myself through this profession anymore.

 

[Piskaupf]

However, as an attending you get to the point where you see the bigger picture. Maybe it’s having kids. Maybe it was leaving academia and working at a community hospital.

Maybe it’s the fact that you’re an attending and finally reached where you wanted to reach lol

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Let's say you do go to a carib school, do well on the USMLE, don't have any further problems, and graduate. What's going to happen when you apply to residency programs?

As already mentioned, you must list your prior US medical school matriculation. You might think that you could just leave it off and how would anyone tell or notice? And you're right -- it's not likely that anyone would notice. But if someone does, and it comes to light -- that's fraud. No matter where you are in the process -- even if you've already finished training and have a full license -- it will all come crashing down. Lying like this is unforgivable in medicine, there will be no recovery.

You could just list it and say you left for "personal reasons". Will programs dig deeper? Who knows. I would assume that if you're not telling me, then it's bad news and I wouldn't waste my time. But maybe some program will just take you? Maybe.

Then comes licensing. The board of medicine absolutely will want documentation from the school about what happened. You're not posting it here (completely understandable), so impossible to say what they will do with the info. Almost certainly this information will pass back to the program -- when they find out about it afterwards unclear if they will continue your training or terminate you over not being honest.

Let's say you're 100% open about the issue, you write about it in your PS. No secrets, it's all there for people to see. In that case, if your story differs from the "official" story, how is anyone to know which is the truth?

Overall, this seems like an enormous risk. But, the Ed Dept is now in the business of canceling student loans so there's some chance that if it all fails, you can get your loans canceled and continue. But I wouldn't bank on that. My 2 cents.

 

[Ho0v-man]

You’ll have a hard time convincing anyone that a school decided to give up >$100k just because someone didn’t like you. Your best case scenario is soaping into a terrible FM or IM program. And even that seems extremely unlikely. There are enough candidates with zero red flags that there’s just no reason to take a chance in you. It’s not worth $200-300k to pursue your dreams with such a low chance of success.

Unless you can get back into your school that dismissed you, the dream is dead.

 

[Piskaupf]

You’ll have a hard time convincing anyone that a school decided to give up >$100k just because someone didn’t like you. Your best case scenario is soaping into a terrible FM or IM program. And even that seems extremely unlikely. There are enough candidates with zero red flags that there’s just no reason to take a chance in you. It’s not worth $200-300k to pursue your dreams with such a low chance of success.

Unless you can get back into your school that dismissed you, the dream is dead.

I convinced everyone who asked me in real life, including several people who DMed me asking me what happened. That 100k wasn’t going into their pockets. 🙄

 

[Psych1912]

Why would residency programs consider his app DOA for being dismissed from medical school? I know there is a lot we don't know about the circumstances and what the real reason was for the dismissal, but don't people come back from things like this all the time? Not to mention the reason for his dismissal would not be disclosed when he/she lists it on their ERAS app. I still don't think going the Caribbean route is a good idea, but his medical career doesn't seem finished if he can find a way back into the US system by any means. I'm giving the OP the benefit of the doubt that whatever happened was a misunderstanding and not nearly as egregious as it seems but of course I could be wrong.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

A more general post about "professionalism".

One of the things that gets lost in these discussions is what professionalism means. In my experience, there are two separate issues -- the things you do, and how you go about doing them. The first is often much more cut-and-dried and there's often agreement. The second is more vague, but also more common.

What you do - you can certainly perform some act that's unprofessional. It might be illegal or unethical. An example is the medical student who stole the iPad from the patient that died of cancer. Or students who forge their own evaluations. These types of behaviors are such that, almost regardless of the underlying circumstances, they are completely unacceptable. These types of events are very rare.

How you do it - this is the much more complicated issue. Even if you're "doing the right thing", if you do it in a way that is confrontational, aggressive, or hurtful, that can be considered unprofessional also. The best example in residency is a resident who wants something done for a patient that needs to get done (a scan, for example), after being told it can't happen today becomes belligerent and demands it be done for the patient's clinical need, demands to speak with "higher ups", etc. I've had residents like this. They are convinced they are "in the right" since the patient needed the test. And often, the patient does need the test. But the way they get at getting the test done creates havoc and distress. They often say they were "standing up for the patient's rights" or something similar. The issue is that their motives were fine, but the execution was unprofessional. Eugene Gu's story is a great example of this -- there's nothing wrong with his views (at least as documented on social media), but the way he expressed them apparently crossed a line. (There were apparently concerns about his clinical skills also, but let's not re-litigate that here, there's a whole thread buried somewhere that can be ressurected).

So, to the OP, you say that this whole professionalism thing was manufactured because people "disliked you for personal reasons". I'm worried that your actions, even if factually "professional", were executed in a way that was interpreted as unprofessional. Should that be the case, the same problem will occur again (in almost any field) unless you address it.

Best of luck

 

[Piskaupf]

A more general post about "professionalism".

One of the things that gets lost in these discussions is what professionalism means. In my experience, there are two separate issues -- the things you do, and how you go about doing them. The first is often much more cut-and-dried and there's often agreement. The second is more vague, but also more common.

What you do - you can certainly perform some act that's unprofessional. It might be illegal or unethical. An example is the medical student who stole the iPad from the patient that died of cancer. Or students who forge their own evaluations. These types of behaviors are such that, almost regardless of the underlying circumstances, they are completely unacceptable. These types of events are very rare.

How you do it - this is the much more complicated issue. Even if you're "doing the right thing", if you do it in a way that is confrontational, aggressive, or hurtful, that can be considered unprofessional also. The best example in residency is a resident who wants something done for a patient that needs to get done (a scan, for example), after being told it can't happen today becomes belligerent and demands it be done for the patient's clinical need, demands to speak with "higher ups", etc. I've had residents like this. They are convinced they are "in the right" since the patient needed the test. And often, the patient does need the test. But the way they get at getting the test done creates havoc and distress. They often say they were "standing up for the patient's rights" or something similar. The issue is that their motives were fine, but the execution was unprofessional. Eugene Gu's story is a great example of this -- there's nothing wrong with his views (at least as documented on social media), but the way he expressed them apparently crossed a line. (There were apparently concerns about his clinical skills also, but let's not re-litigate that here, there's a whole thread buried somewhere that can be ressurected).

So, to the OP, you say that this whole professionalism thing was manufactured because people "disliked you for personal reasons". I'm worried that your actions, even if factually "professional", were executed in a way that was interpreted as unprofessional. Should that be the case, the same problem will occur again (in almost any field) unless you address it.

Best of luck

Listen, I’m not trying to convince you guys what I did was right or wrong bc it’s irrelevant to the conversation and tbh I don’t give a **** about the opinions of strangers on a discussion board. And obviously Occam’s razor would make you assume I was in the wrong vs a committee of medical faculty. I said what I needed to say: absolutely nothing I did was unprofessional and I would not have faced any disciplinary action had this occurred at absolutely any other US medical institution.

I was expecting dismissal and was doing everything I could to avoid it. Wording emails in ways that would be impossible to interpret disrespectfully. Laying as low and invisible as possible. Sadly, it was too late to get rid of the target on my back. I was dug out like a mole and railroaded.

 

[Psych1912]

Listen, I’m not trying to convince you guys what I did was right or wrong bc it’s irrelevant to the conversation and tbh I don’t give a **** about the opinions of strangers on a discussion board. And obviously Occam’s razor would make you assume I was in the wrong vs a committee of medical faculty. I said what I needed to say: absolutely nothing I did was unprofessional and I would not have faced any disciplinary action had this occurred at absolutely any other US medical institution.

Then if that is true then you need to find a way to get back into your medical school. Your entire career and livelihood depends on it and you cannot expect strangers on an anonymous forum to be of much help in helping you in that regard. All we can tell you is that going to a Caribbean school and expecting to match with this mark on your record is going to drag you to a layer of hell the likes of which you cannot imagine.

 

[paki20]

You could move to a new country (Canada or a country in Europe) and start over and practice medicine there. Journey will be long and tough now.

 

[paki20]

You could move to a new country (Canada or a country in Europe) and start over and practice medicine there. Journey will be long and tough now.

Also try reaching out to program directors in non-competitive fields at non competitive programs of possible fields of interest to see how they would view your case, make some contacts, do some research. Get some feedback. Take ownership of any issues and make sure it's clear that you're really going to work on making sure issues like this don't ever happen again. They want to make sure you will be on your best behavior. Don't be dismissive or underplay your mistakes even if you feel like you were wronged.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I convinced everyone who asked me in real life, including several people who DMed me asking me what happened. That 100k wasn’t going into their pockets. 🙄

Likely doesn’t change the reality of the situation. But if you’re so confident about this and don’t care what people on this forum think as you mentioned above…then what are you doing? Are you just keeping this thread going until someone tells you this is a good idea so you can have validation for a decision you’ve already made?

 

[Piskaupf]

Likely doesn’t change the reality of the situation. But if you’re so confident about this and don’t care what people on this forum think as you mentioned above…then what are you doing? Are you just keeping this thread going until someone tells you this is a good idea so you can have validation for a decision you’ve already made?

I don’t care abt what they think of my character, I *do* care about the advice I’m taking from them. And responding when appropriate. Did i offend u or smth?

 

[GreenDuck12]

I think this thread has run its course. Best of luck to you OP.