Cardiothoracic DO

[Misterioso]

is this the case most of the time? good scores, good grades, and good connections?

Yes. That's why med students do away rotations at hospitals they want to apply to, and why they do research they don't genuinely care about so they can get their name on some paper and a letter of rec from some heavyweight who can pull some strings for them. It's just one big game that gets played over year after year. That's one reason that when I'm finished I'm going into private practice so I don't have to deal with this charade. I can see right through the transparent, phony opportunist med students who use attendings as just another stepping stone to advance their career. Screw them.

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[beastmaster]

what I'm telling you is that all the Allopathic Ortho applicants are great ... all of us have killer board scores

No, you don't. Get over yourself. Half of US MD applicants have step 1 scores below 230, and from that group 2/3 matched. Read charting outcomes 2007. What I'm telling you is that DOs who are one standard deviation above that are not even getting interviews. Oh and happy new year!

 

[travoltage]

No, you don't. Get over yourself. Half of US MD applicants have step 1 scores below 230, and from that group 2/3 matched. Read charting outcomes 2007. What I'm telling you is that DOs who are one standard deviation above that are not even getting interviews. Oh and happy new year!

i think one reason is, maybe they just want individuals who look better on paper, i personally would oversee a deviation of 10 points on step 1 and look at the institution that a student comes from, maybe they have incentives of hiring students that could benefit the institutions reputation, or there are some kind of other gains involved. however, maybe there is something your not telling the rest of the MD's in here about your friend...

besides that, i dont think many DO's apply to ortho MD programs, therefore you dont see many DO's in MD ortho programs, not to mention probably the majority go into AOA residencies, i mean take a look at ccom match list, like only 4 students placed into surgical residencies, and those are all AOA...now lets say on average 5 students from each orthopedic school get match into surgery, the AOA residencies have enough openings fro those students, it wouldn't make sense for the ACGME to accept them if the AOA is already matching them prior to ACGME matching

i dont know, i may be wrong but thats my assumption because i do agree with you, there are highly qualified DO students for MD ortho positions, but there have to be other reasonable reasons as to why they dont match into MD positions beside prejudice which i think you are hinting at

 

[Castro Viejo]

My only point was that it's not so black and white as MD residencies are open to DOs, but DO residencies are not open to MDs.

But it actually is that black and white. Run-of-the-mill School of Medicine MD grads are qualified to enter the NRMP match just like the guys who come out of Harvard, but I'm sure there are some PDs out there who'll say, "There's no way in hell I'll ever take one of THOSE (i.e., ROTM SOM grad) into our program." Yet the same residencies are as open on a fundamental level to these "mediocre" MDs as they are to Harvard MDs. The same situation exists for DO students and graduates.

And for god sake, viejo, stop quoting AOA bulletpoints. We didn't write that crap.

This discussion involves a profession of which you are bound to be a member in May 2009. It's not just about you and me. So when the AOA, the professional body which represents pretty much every DO in the land, releases these kinds of marketing tools, every DO is a part of the approximately 60,000 hands that slap the faces of each MD (all 550,000 or so) in this country.

So I don't know who your "We" refers to, but your AOA did write that clearly anti-allopathic nonsense.

 

[Castro Viejo]

Nothing wrong with that. You want to get into one of the competitive U.S. M.D. residencies then go to a competetive U.S. M.D. school and do very well.

It's generous enough we even let D.O. and FMGs a chance at our competitive residencies and sometimes take their best ones, when they don't do the same. We're barred from D.O. residencies and good luck getting into the same competitive residency in most foreign countries...they'll glady tell you to take a hike since it's reserved only for their citizens graduating from their med schools.

I agree. Never thought there was anything wrong with wanting the best. Every program does, but not every program can. If you want the best residency go to the best medical school. It's that simple.

 

[MossPoh]

I can't believe I just read through all of this...wow.

Anyway, for the most part, if you want the best residency go to the best medical school. I know a kid at a top med school now who has shut down for the most part. Doubt he'll get a top residency.

The hardest working, most devoted, and (generally) most intelligent get what they want. Hard work and devotion tend to trump that brain power. I don't like to say "luck" is part of it, but that is because I feel one's hard work and skill lead to that better luck in the end.

I do think it is kind of ridiculous that a residency program can't just be a residency program. I'm applying DO for schools, but I have no problem with the fact some programs don't want DOs. In fact, I see it as fair play. I'll be honest, while I have no problem with DOs, I probably wouldn't apply to the schools if I had goals and study habits when I was younger, but c'est la vie!

Yay pointless arguments based on a premed planning his/her fellowship! WOooooooo

Happy new year everyone.

 

[Castro Viejo]

How many MDs got interviews at PCOM's Ortho program? Oh wait, I forgot, Ortho is way different when you're trained to treat the whole person . . .

" . . . and not just the symptoms."

 

[travoltage]

as comic as is it may be to the rest of us about that holistic approach, we cannot bash on the osteopathic field. many DO's (ones that i have shadowed, and have talked to many) dont even practice the OMM techniques, and holistic body healing...its pretty much dead from what i hear. i personally dont see a reason as to why there are DO's, i personally think they should all be MD's and the whole osteopathic field be eliminated (convert all the current DO schools to MD schools as well as residencies), from what ive experienced and seen, there is no difference in MD/DO so why have 2 of the same things when we should just have 1

 

[Castro Viejo]

as comic as is it may be to the rest of us about that holistic approach, we cannot bash on the osteopathic field. many DO's (ones that i have shadowed, and have talked to many) dont even practice the OMM techniques, and holistic body healing...its pretty much dead from what i hear. i personally dont see a reason as to why there are DO's, i personally think they should all be MD's and the whole osteopathic field be eliminated (convert all the current DO schools to MD schools as well as residencies), from what ive experienced and seen, there is no difference in MD/DO so why have 2 of the same things when we should just have 1

I kid about the "treating the person and not just the symptoms" thing because while the osteopathic profession claims it to be their mantra for practice, the implication is that the allopathic profession ignores the rest of the patient. This is simply not true.

Oh, and while I'm not a moderator, I'd however like to offer my recommendation to refrain from starting another MD vs. DO flame throwing war.

 

[RajMahal]

i personally dont see a reason as to why there are DO's, i personally think they should all be MD's and the whole osteopathic field be eliminated (convert all the current DO schools to MD schools as well as residencies), from what ive experienced and seen, there is no difference in MD/DO so why have 2 of the same things when we should just have 1

dear god, didn't we learn anything from the failed california merger?

There is a difference. We're trained differently. Some people feel that our training is inferior, but there are those who work hard and do allopathic postgraduate training to help show that it is comparable. The reason that the majority of DO's don't practice OMM (97%) is that it's not a cost-effective use of your time, unless OMM is your specialty. Also, since most DO's train at allopathic institutions, our OMM skills fall by the wayside. I still perform OMM, just not on patients. Mostly on friends, family members, co-workers etc. who need adjustments.

As much as I despise the AOA, all of its political BS and ridiculous position statements, as well as idiotic policies regarding postgraduate training, I am a DO, my medical school training was different than MD's, and I'm proud of that distinction.

 

[travoltage]

dear god, didn't we learn anything from the failed california merger?

There is a difference. We're trained differently. Some people feel that our training is inferior, but there are those who work hard and do allopathic postgraduate training to help show that it is comparable. The reason that the majority of DO's don't practice OMM (97%) is that it's not a cost-effective use of your time, unless OMM is your specialty. Also, since most DO's train at allopathic institutions, our OMM skills fall by the wayside. I still perform OMM, just not on patients. Mostly on friends, family members, co-workers etc. who need adjustments.

As much as I despise the AOA, all of its political BS and ridiculous position statements, as well as idiotic policies regarding postgraduate training, I am a DO, my medical school training was different than MD's, and I'm proud of that distinction.

but doesnt your actual training and learning, in your case surgery, come from residency which for you is an allopathic institution....and as the previous posts said some 40% of osteopathic students training is from allopathic institutions, therefore you have the same training as allopathic students. again, from my shadowing experiencing and talking to one of my lor docs who is a professor of clinical studies at uic, he said it doesnt really matter where you go to med school, everyone gets the same education, its in your residency where you train and learn. so going with what he said, i would assume that, yes, you do have the same training as allopathic students even if you are a DO. i hope i dont offend anyone with this, i just find the trainings, as outsider looking in, the same..

 

[travoltage]

so does anyone know where i can find a directory of CT DO's, i would like to read about them more and maybe contact them

 

[Blade28]

so does anyone know where i can find a directory of CT DO's, i would like to read about them more and maybe contact them

I'd try a search, either through Google or CTSnet.org.

 

[travoltage]

I'd try a search, either through Google or CTSnet.org.

thanks blade

 

[Blade28]

No problem. It's not an easy search, and definitely not a common one (at least here on SDN).

 

[medhacker]

so does anyone know where i can find a directory of CT DO's, i would like to read about them more and maybe contact them

Try this:

http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=findado_main

 

[ChrisKnight]

Would being in a dual program accredited by the AOA and ACGME side skirt this whole issue, since you can be certified by both the AOA and ABMS??

 

[DO_Surgeon]

Would being in a dual program accredited by the AOA and ACGME side skirt this whole issue, since you can be certified by both the AOA and ABMS??

Yes this would resolve the whole issue, however, there are currently no dual accrediated general surgery programs. My program is working on the process of becoming one of the first programs to become dual accrediated, but it looks like it is a few years down the road.

 

[ChrisKnight]

Interesting, I was unaware of this. I knew of other programs (mostly family med.) that were dually accredited and assumed they span all specialties. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

I'm tempted to say I've been a very good girl, but then someone will accuse me of derailing this thread and this forum!

But yes, those things please, and a new set of skis.

Wait, stop the presses. You are a girl???!!!

 

[Winged Scapula]

Wait, stop the presses. You are a girl???!!!

Uh, yeah. You didn't know? I thought everyone knew.

You can even see my picture if you go to my profile.

 

[ESU_MD]

getting a GOOD job in CT surgery these days takes some effort. I think the old school die-hard CT guys are as anti-DO as it can get. YOu might have to wait for them to die/retire before this changes.

You dont see many DO's in CT residency, oddly enough you see TONS of foreign trained guys.

 

[DO_Surgeon]

getting a GOOD job in CT surgery these days takes some effort. I think the old school die-hard CT guys are as anti-DO as it can get. YOu might have to wait for them to die/retire before this changes.

You dont see many DO's in CT residency, oddly enough you see TONS of foreign trained guys.

I would definately agree with that. I can honestly say there are quite a number of programs/directors that have indicated to me that it really is no issue. Maybe due to the fact they can't fill their programs. The bigger issue however, is the eligibilty for board certification. Not being able to sit for the ABTS boards is a major hang up at many programs. Even though you are eligible for thoracic board ceritication through the AOA after completing an AOA general surgery residency and an ACGME thoracic fellowship, some program directors are unwilling to accept a DO. I don't think its a DO vs MD issue, but rather a pure political/board certification issue.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Uh, yeah. You didn't know? I thought everyone knew.

You can even see my picture if you go to my profile.

Im new to these particular parts of town.

 

[bdvz]

getting a GOOD job in CT surgery these days takes some effort. I think the old school die-hard CT guys are as anti-DO as it can get. YOu might have to wait for them to die/retire before this changes.

You dont see many DO's in CT residency, oddly enough you see TONS of foreign trained guys.

Could someone please elaborate some more on this? I don't mean to open up a debate about D.O. vs. the Carribbean, but I'm really interested in cardiothoracic surgery and I'm debating going to the Carribbean vs. going to a D.O. school. It's not likely at this point that I could go to an allopathic school. I just want to maximize my chances at becoming a cardiothoracic surgeon, which route would you advise me to take?

 

[DO_Surgeon]

Could someone please elaborate some more on this? I don't mean to open up a debate about D.O. vs. the Carribbean, but I'm really interested in cardiothoracic surgery and I'm debating going to the Carribbean vs. going to a D.O. school. It's not likely at this point that I could go to an allopathic school. I just want to maximize my chances at becoming a cardiothoracic surgeon, which route would you advise me to take?

I am a DO soon to be starting a CT fellowship. I know several DOs who are either in acT training or out. So needless to say becoming a CT surgeon as a DO is possible. Not to say you can't by going to a Caribbean school, I just personally don't know of any. Not to turn this into a pissing contest but I think your best option would be to attend a US medical school either MD or DO

 

[bdvz]

Ok thanks for your reply

 

[DO_Surgeon]

Ok thanks for your reply

I attempted to send you a PM in response to your question but your profile doesn't allow PM. You may want to check your profile settings.

 

[flyingdartz]

Hi DO_Surgeon. I'm a DO student (just finished first year) planning to go into surgical specialty. Are you at Deborah? If so, what is your experience doing the CT fellowship with respect to what you know about other programs? Any info about switching to I-6? Any opinion on how the AOA/ACGME merger could affect DO's in their ACGME residency/fellowship applications? Thank you.

 

[Weinberg Angle]

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[DO_Surgeon]

Hi DO_Surgeon. I'm a DO student (just finished first year) planning to go into surgical specialty. Are you at Deborah? If so, what is your experience doing the CT fellowship with respect to what you know about other programs? Any info about switching to I-6? Any opinion on how the AOA/ACGME merger could affect DO's in their ACGME residency/fellowship applications? Thank you.

I did not do my fellowship at Deborah. Did it through an ACGME program. Can't really speak to the quality of training at Deborah or even if a fellowship exists. I can't see how the merger will hurt DO's. I can't tell you the amount leg work/hoop jumping I had to do in order to do a CT fellowship at an acgme program as a DO following an AOA general surgery residency. Integrated programs are highly competitive and popular. My only advice to anyone just be sure CT surgery is your ultimate goal. Otherwise the general surgery route gives you a broad exposure to many other options not to mention the value of a chief year as a resident in general surgery which is very valuable. Good luck with your future