Canadian studying in the United States

[LeMaquis321]

Hey all!

I'm a Canadian citizen studying in the United States, and I'm about to graduate with a degree in Microbiology. I've been looking at Canadian medical schools and the more I look at their entrance statistics, the more perplexed I become. Not only do most average applicants appear to have GPAs that are above 3.9 (studying in the sciences too), but some schools actually have an average admittance GPA above that number.

At my school, people with such high GPAs are very rare. Especially in the sciences. My GPA is nowhere near that, but I would consider my GPA to be competitive in the US. Common sense would dictate that Americans and Canadians are of the same average intelligence. As such, some other factor should explain my (perceived) GPA discrepancy.

My question is: Is it just me, or is it significantly easier to obtain such a high GPA in Canada? I understand that answering this question will be a matter of perspective, but it's staggering to me how many students coming out of Canadian universities achieve such stellar GPAs...or am I really that dumb?

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[MadHopsMD]

I think to get a high GPA is similar to US schools -- where certain schools have grade inflation (Harvard) while others are not (MIT). If you look at the MCAT scores its similar to US schools across the board. So why is the GPA higher? Well...

Some of it has to do with some schools count two best years OR some schools throw away one whole year when doing calculations. Also some schools a 4.0 is above 80% (Western U) versus 85% (Most US schools).

Also the pool of students who get in are usually better. See the acceptance statistics of people who get accepted to medical school in tough states such as California.

 

[LeMaquis321]

That would make sense, especially if they adjust your GPA in the manner that you just explained. A 4.0 is a 93% and above at my school (using the +/- system). Is this taken into account at all or do they simply convert you to their own GPA scale? I wish everything was standardized!

Stanford has a very renowned medical school, and while uOttawa doesn't have a horrible one, it's nowhere near Stanford's, but it still has a higher average GPA in terms of admittance. It just feels bizarre to see such numbers.

At the University of Ottawa (Official statistics):
"The minimum acceptable grade point average is 3.5 on a 4.0 scale. The mean grade point average of successful applicants in 2011/12 was 3.91."

Dalhousie Medical School (Official statistics):
"3.8"

Stanford School of Medicine (Official statistics):
"The average GPA of students admitted to Stanford School of Medicine is 3.88."

Harvard Medical School (Official statistics):
"Average GPA: 3.8"

 

[Odi]

I'm on the same boat. Studied in the US.

From what I've gathered so far, your grades will be accepted however they appear on your US transcript. Your B's will not be accounted for as A's. This puts us at such a disadvantage because Canadian applicants have 4.0's and 3.9's when they were realistically hitting many 80%'s on their courses. Factor in some schools either don't take your lowest year, some only take your best two years, and some only take your last two years, well, that makes their pool of applicants look like super freaks with their GPA's.

We're at a disadvantage now in our own country and a disadvantage in US medical schools because we're international applicants. Ugh... just do your best to absolutely destroy the MCAT.

 

[DrHitchcraft]

Hey all!

I'm a Canadian citizen studying in the United States, and I'm about to graduate with a degree in Microbiology. I've been looking at Canadian medical schools and the more I look at their entrance statistics, the more perplexed I become. Not only do most average applicants appear to have GPAs that are above 3.9 (studying in the sciences too), but some schools actually have an average admittance GPA above that number.

At my school, people with such high GPAs are very rare. Especially in the sciences. My GPA is nowhere near that, but I would consider my GPA to be competitive in the US. Common sense would dictate that Americans and Canadians are of the same average intelligence. As such, some other factor should explain my (perceived) GPA discrepancy.

My question is: Is it just me, or is it significantly easier to obtain such a high GPA in Canada? I understand that answering this question will be a matter of perspective, but it's staggering to me how many students coming out of Canadian universities achieve such stellar GPAs...or am I really that dumb?

In general, I do not think Canadian and US universities differ much in difficulty. Of course, some programs in certain universities in Canada (and the US) do have a reputation of grade inflation but it is not a significant factor that accounts for the 'high GPA' phenomenon you are observing in Canada.

To answer your question, students coming out of Canadian universities are not achieving such stellar GPAs at any increased frequency relative to their US counterparts. What is happening in Canada is that:

1) Canadian medical schools utilizing GPA weighting schemes as explained above by MadHopsMD

2) Canadian medical schools place significant weight on undergraduate GPA. This differs from the US medical schools because applicants may have several things (or combination thereof) that can offset a 'just good/mediocre' GPA...to name a few:
-Stellar MCAT
-Graduate degrees (e.g. Master's degree, PhD, SMP)
-Exceptional scholarly activity (e.g. Publications)
-Significant life experiences
-URM status: Not to spark a debate but with the exception of aboriginals, admissions is purely meritocratic in Canada
-Early application (rolling admissions does not occur in Canada)

You may think - 'But don't these factors also offset a just good or mediocre undergraduate GPA in Canada?'. Nope (exceptions exist but generally, no). Obtaining an interview invite from Canadian medical schools is very formulaic. Meet their system's high undergraduate GPA/MCAT subsection cutoffs and you are sent an invite. It's so specific that every year on premed101, Canadian applicants can elucidate each individual school's cutoff scores. With few exceptions do applicants get an invite without meeting this cutoff - no matter how great the other aspects of their application is.

Take home message: ECs and LORs are more of a formality in Canadian medical schools. Of course, better ECs and LORs is better...but rarely do they offset even slight deficiencies in GPA/MCAT. No adcom in Canada is going to really scrutinize your ECs and LORs (despite what you may think after reading each school's admissions page) to the same extent as in the US. Just don't have any red flags.

3) Canadian medical schools are all approximately mid-tier institutions. In the US, you have a broad range of tiers to choose from.

The combination of all the above factors I mentioned results in the reported undergraduate GPA of Canadian medical school matriculants to be relatively high.

That would make sense, especially if they adjust your GPA in the manner that you just explained. A 4.0 is a 93% and above at my school (using the +/- system). Is this taken into account at all or do they simply convert you to their own GPA scale? I wish everything was standardized!

Stanford has a very renowned medical school, and while uOttawa doesn't have a horrible one, it's nowhere near Stanford's, but it still has a higher average GPA in terms of admittance. It just feels bizarre to see such numbers.

At the University of Ottawa (Official statistics):
"The minimum acceptable grade point average is 3.5 on a 4.0 scale. The mean grade point average of successful applicants in 2011/12 was 3.91."

Dalhousie Medical School (Official statistics):
"3.8"
Stanford School of Medicine (Official statistics):
"The average GPA of students admitted to Stanford School of Medicine is 3.88."

Harvard Medical School (Official statistics):
"Average GPA: 3.8"

Comparing GPAs from top-tier medical schools in the US to any medical school in Canada should not be used as a measure of gauging relative prestige or relative difficulty in gaining acceptance. Top-tiers scrutinize their applicants' non-numerical achievements to a level that is not even comparable to how Canadian adcoms run things. If Harvard really wanted to, they could just matriculate >3.95cGPA and >40MCAT applicants...but they don't.

 

[Medstart108]

I'm on the same boat. Studied in the US.

From what I've gathered so far, your grades will be accepted however they appear on your US transcript. Your B's will not be accounted for as A's. This puts us at such a disadvantage because Canadian applicants have 4.0's and 3.9's when they were realistically hitting many 80%'s on their courses. Factor in some schools either don't take your lowest year, some only take your best two years, and some only take your last two years, well, that makes their pool of applicants look like super freaks with their GPA's.

We're at a disadvantage now in our own country and a disadvantage in US medical schools because we're international applicants. Ugh... just do your best to absolutely destroy the MCAT.

In Canada it is still 90 to hit a 4.0 but I do believe that it is easier to get a 90 in Canada than it is in the US

 

[DrHitchcraft]

In Canada it is still 90 to hit a 4.0 but I do believe that it is easier to get a 90 in Canada than it is in the US

Is this common in Canadian universities? At McGill, 85 to 100 = 4.0 and 80 to <85 = 3.7.

 

[Medstart108]

Is this common in Canadian universities? At McGill, 85 to 100 = 4.0 and 80 to <85 = 3.7.

Thats the McGill conversion and this is the same at UofT, where 85 is equivalent to 4.0. However, when these grades are converted using the official OMSAS scale (all med schools in Ontario use the OMSAS scale) you need a 90 to be converted to a 4.0.

This is a big reason why a lot of people do not recommend high schoolers to go to UofT for premed.

 

[onelastpuff23]

I cannot begin to stress the insight of this post, which is a concise summary of the major differences between US and CDN schools. I especially love this comment

Comparing GPAs from top-tier medical schools in the US to any medical school in Canada should not be used as a measure of gauging relative prestige or relative difficulty in gaining acceptance. Top-tiers scrutinize their applicants' non-numerical achievements to a level that is not even comparable to how Canadian adcoms run things. If Harvard really wanted to, they could just matriculate >3.95cGPA and >40MCAT applicants...but they don't.

This explains why Dalhousie and Ottawa have GPAs that match Northwestern and Columbia.

In general, I do not think Canadian and US universities differ much in difficulty. Of course, some programs in certain universities in Canada (and the US) do have a reputation of grade inflation but it is not a significant factor that accounts for the 'high GPA' phenomenon you are observing in Canada.

To answer your question, students coming out of Canadian universities are not achieving such stellar GPAs at any increased frequency relative to their US counterparts. What is happening in Canada is that:

1) Canadian medical schools utilizing GPA weighting schemes as explained above by MadHopsMD

2) Canadian medical schools place significant weight on undergraduate GPA. This differs from the US medical schools because applicants may have several things (or combination thereof) that can offset a 'just good/mediocre' GPA...to name a few:
-Stellar MCAT
-Graduate degrees (e.g. Master's degree, PhD, SMP)
-Exceptional scholarly activity (e.g. Publications)
-Significant life experiences
-URM status: Not to spark a debate but with the exception of aboriginals, admissions is purely meritocratic in Canada
-Early application (rolling admissions does not occur in Canada)

You may think - 'But don't these factors also offset a just good or mediocre undergraduate GPA in Canada?'. Nope (exceptions exist but generally, no). Obtaining an interview invite from Canadian medical schools is very formulaic. Meet their system's high undergraduate GPA/MCAT subsection cutoffs and you are sent an invite. It's so specific that every year on premed101, Canadian applicants can elucidate each individual school's cutoff scores. With few exceptions do applicants get an invite without meeting this cutoff - no matter how great the other aspects of their application is.

Take home message: ECs and LORs are more of a formality in Canadian medical schools. Of course, better ECs and LORs is better...but rarely do they offset even slight deficiencies in GPA/MCAT. No adcom in Canada is going to really scrutinize your ECs and LORs (despite what you may think after reading each school's admissions page) to the same extent as in the US. Just don't have any red flags.

3) Canadian medical schools are all approximately mid-tier institutions. In the US, you have a broad range of tiers to choose from.

The combination of all the above factors I mentioned results in the reported undergraduate GPA of Canadian medical school matriculants to be relatively high.



Comparing GPAs from top-tier medical schools in the US to any medical school in Canada should not be used as a measure of gauging relative prestige or relative difficulty in gaining acceptance. Top-tiers scrutinize their applicants' non-numerical achievements to a level that is not even comparable to how Canadian adcoms run things. If Harvard really wanted to, they could just matriculate >3.95cGPA and >40MCAT applicants...but they don't.

 

[Odi]

Thats the McGill conversion and this is the same at UofT, where 85 is equivalent to 4.0. However, when these grades are converted using the official OMSAS scale (all med schools in Ontario use the OMSAS scale) you need a 90 to be converted to a 4.0.

This is a big reason why a lot of people do not recommend high schoolers to go to UofT for premed.

I've contacted OMSAS about this trying to understand how my US grades would be converted. At my US school 90% = 3.66 and 80% = 3.0.

If you're transcript is from the US they simply take your GPA at face value so whatever the US school converted it to.

So someone from UofWestern who has 80% in a class on their transcript will get an OMSAS conversion to 3.7. However, my 3.7 on my transcript will be taken as a 3.7 at face value while I technically scored a 90% in the class.

The only way OMSAS will recognize my 90% as a 4.0 the same way they do for a Canadian is if the final score on my transcript is ONLY that 90% percent... no letter grade and no GPA... just a percentage. AKA--never lol.

 

[LeMaquis321]

Thanks for clearing that up DrHitchcraft. Don't get me wrong, I love Canada, but that seems like a very archaic way to do things. There are other factors that should be taken into consideration (shadowing and volunteering just to name a few).

Many schools in Canada don't require the MCAT, at which point it would all hinge on your GPA, which is a very poor way to measure things since the difficulty and grading scales between schools (even between teachers at the same school) varies widely.

And that's crazy Odi, I can't believe they told you that with a straight face. I went to a big research school in the US, and it appears that I (and you too) have been penalized for it...for whatever reason. I guess I'll just have to attend medical school in the United States.

 

[onelastpuff23]

I highly suggest you do. In Canada, there's an underlying assumption, no matter how erroneous, that all undergraduate schools are equal not only in quality but also in grading. Thus, all schools are treated equally, and grades are all considered the same no matter the difficulty of the program. The only thing that Canadian schools seem to stress is course load, demanding all students take at least five credits (28-30hours) for that year to be considered in terms of GPA.

I am like you, and will never understand the system. The selection favors certain types of applicants, many of whom are amazing book learners but with little social skills

Thanks for clearing that up DrHitchcraft. Don't get me wrong, I love Canada, but that seems like a very archaic way to do things. There are other factors that should be taken into consideration (shadowing and volunteering just to name a few).

Many schools in Canada don't require the MCAT, at which point it would all hinge on your GPA, which is a very poor way to measure things since the difficulty and grading scales between schools (even between teachers at the same school) varies widely.

And that's crazy Odi, I can't believe they told you that with a straight face. I went to a big research school in the US, and it appears that I (and you too) have been penalized for it...for whatever reason. I guess I'll just have to attend medical school in the United States.

 

[onelastpuff23]

I don't think the difference is that it's easier to get a high GPA in Canada, it is that it is harder to get into med school in Canada than it is in the US, therefore cut off grades are higher.

Not true at all. It depends on where you live. Certain schools in Canada only get 500 applications. Statistically even lower tier US schools have lower acceptance rates.

 

[Medstart108]

A lot of Canadians who are not competitive enough for any Canadian schools apply to American medical schools and are accepted into many of the lower tier US allopathic schools. That fact alone should tell you which system is harder to secure a spot in.

This isn't even touching on American DO schools, which are even easier to get into, and they still offer virtually equal security for a residency to the allopathic schools.

You're right that a couple schools in Canada are not super competitive, but these are remote/rural schools in unpopulated provinces that have most spots reserved only for local residents, so hence not as many applicants. For any out-of-province applicants to these schools it is extremely hard to get in since there are only like 5 spots available for out-of-province.

It is definitely true that Canadian schools are harder than American medical schools (only 20% of Ontario applicants get into any medical school, whereas in the US 40% of applicants get into a medical school) but i don't believe that Dal and Ottawa are as competitive as Columbia or Northwestern.

 

[DrHitchcraft]

Not to quote any specific responses but I do not think that comparing competitiveness between admissions into CDN vs USMD medical schools as a CDN applicant (CDN citizen with no US citizenship or permanent residency) is that straight-forward...

That is, I do not think one can make a general statement that CDN matriculants to CDN medical schools had more 'competitive' applications than CDN matriculants to USMD medical schools. This is because it all depends on the definition of competitiveness, which is not exactly universal between CDN and US admissions systems.

I want to also add that CDN applicants (CDN citizen with no US citizenship or permanent resident) applying to USMD programs cannot even apply to many USMD programs. The dilemma as a CDN applicant applying to the limited number of USMD programs that have a history of accepting CDNs is that these medical schools have:

1) Geographical preference: in-state > out-of-state > Canadian
OR
2) No geographical preference but are ranked in the top 20

In most cases, Canadian USMD matriculants get into 1) where they had applications that were more competitive than the applications of the average matriculant to that school. So even 'low-tier' USMD programs should not be considered or looked down upon as some sort of backdoor or back-up route to MD as the profile of the Canadians that matriculate there is quite competitive.

This isn't even touching on American DO schools, which are even easier to get into, and they still offer virtually equal security for a residency to the allopathic schools.

I thought overall match rates between USMD and USDO differ by about ~20% (90s% vs 70s%).

 

[LeMaquis321]

From the data I've been seeing, DO school is becoming less of a safe bet. The number of residencies in the US are stagnant, while the overall enrollment of allopathic schools is increasing by 30%. This means that students in the DO programs will have even more competition for residencies for the same amount of spots. I can't imagine how bad students in the Caribbean are going to have it.

Some medical schools in the US accept international/Canadian applicants (mostly up north or private/Ivy), but for the most part they don't. My school's MD program does not accept applicants without citizenship or permanent residence.

 

[Medstart108]

The number of residencies grew around 2000 spots from 24000 to 26000 from last year so it isn't actually stagnant. The problem is over exaggerated and there is a lot of fear mongering. Yes it probably will get more difficult but DO and IMG still will be matching.


If you don't believe me look for yourself 1st link is 2013 data and 2nd link is 2012 data.
http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f4...ontent/uploads/2013/08/resultsanddata2013.pdf

http://www.stanford.edu/~niederle/NRMP SOAP outcomes 2012.pdf

 

[MadHopsMD]

A lot of Canadians who are not competitive enough for any Canadian schools apply to American medical schools and are accepted into many of the lower tier US allopathic schools. That fact alone should tell you which system is harder to secure a spot in.

This isn't even touching on American DO schools, which are even easier to get into, and they still offer virtually equal security for a residency to the allopathic schools.

Many is a very strong word. I believe there are perhaps 10-15 canadians in US allopathic medical schools. I know this because I am one of them. Its as competitive to get into a US school as Canadian schools as a Canadian. Not having a citizenship is really a killer! Good point was made by DrHitchcraft...

My stats were 3.8 and 34 MCAT. Which are probably below average to get accepted in American Universities as a Canadian. The only reason I got in was because i had significant life experiences (volunteered overseas), couple publications as an undergrad and went to a recognizable school in Canada (UofT, McGill are the only ones US recognizes)

If you are wondering why so many Canadians take the Caribbean route. That is the reason why.

 

[Medstart108]

Many is a very strong word. I believe there are perhaps 10-15 canadians in US allopathic medical schools. I know this because I am one of them. Its as competitive to get into a US school as Canadian schools as a Canadian. Not having a citizenship is really a killer! Good point was made by DrHitchcraft...

My stats were 3.8 and 34 MCAT. Which are probably below average to get accepted in American Universities as a Canadian. The only reason I got in was because i had significant life experiences (volunteered overseas), couple publications as an undergrad and went to a recognizable school in Canada (UofT, McGill are the only ones US recognizes)

If you are wondering why so many Canadians take the Caribbean route. That is the reason why.

There are stats saying the average Canadian matric had like a 3.74 and a 33.7 MCAT, so you would be just slightly above average.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321502/data/2012factstable21.pdf

 

[onelastpuff23]

Canada is a smaller country with ONLY public institutions. In the US, they allow for private education and thus there are more options and the appearance of easier acceptance. Even as an American, it's not straightforward as you make it seem. I'd much ratehr be a resident of Quebec than a resident of California.

 

[MadHopsMD]

Do you mean 10-15 Canadian students at your school? Wayne State alone has around 40 Canadian med students per matriculating year.

wow I didnt know that. Maybe I was underestimating. I still havent come across many canadians going to US medical schools. But the number is fewer than one might think.

Minus Wayne state, Upstate not many have more than 1 canadian.

 

[DrHitchcraft]

Do you mean 10-15 Canadian students at your school? Wayne State alone has around 40 Canadian med students per matriculating year.

Is this really true? Wayne State University School of Medicine (WSUSOM) had 64 OOS matriculants last year. You are saying ~40/64 of them were CDN?

In a scenario where all CDNs that matriculated into WSUSOM did not come from Michigan undergraduate institutions (which is reasonable or you can correct me otherwise), to reach 40 CDN matriculants as you suggest (in last year's cycle), CDNs at WSUSOM would have a profile of:
5 CDN individuals from UWO + ~35 CDN individuals from 17-35 different institutions
[Deduced from: http://admissions.med.wayne.edu/class-profiles.php]

In this scenario, at best, Canadian matriculants would represent being from at least 18 undergraduate institutions. Something is off. At the very best, I am thinking that WSUSOM matriculates 20 CDNs per year.

On a side note, there were AT LEAST 33 USMD CDNs in the class of 2013 as this was the number of CDN 2013 US medical graduates that participated in the CaRMS match. [Table 1: https://www.carms.ca/en/r-1-match-reports-2013]