Canadian lawsuit lol

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nimbus

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I thought the USA had the market on stupid medical lawsuits cornered so I appreciate her for helping us look good.
 
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And her anesthesiologist is an idiot for giving her propofol. Not because of a medical reason, but because she's absolutely certifiable.
It just isn’t worth it. Agree not to give propofol even though it is idiotic. Move on.
 
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It just isn’t worth it. Agree not to give propofol even though it is idiotic. Move on.
Agreed. I've had patients show up with "anesthetic recipes".

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What if your surgery center doesn't have etomidate.

Do you do inhalation induction? What if it's a GI case?

Becomes an interesting issue when the patient asks you to perform a suboptimal technique that you likely don't perform routinely (and thus potentially higher risk) in order to avoid a complication that they were misinformed about.

Classis example is "allergies" to local anesthesia
 
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Some "allergies" I've seen recently in files:
- fentanyl leading to complete haemodynamic collapse ---> got some fentanyl prior to a chest drain for tension pneumothorax
- propofol infusion syndrome ---> hyperlactataemia without haemodynamic compromise while on salbutamol infusion for critical asthma
- volatile anaesthetics ---> unconsciousness
- anaesthetic agents (not specified) ---> cannot remember reaction from the 1980s

Did have someone come in refusing propofol because that's what killed Michael Jackson. Explained extensively that it's safe in our hands, still refused and doesn't want neuraxial either. Thiopentone.
 
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What if your surgery center doesn't have etomidate.

Do you do inhalation induction? What if it's a GI case?

Becomes an interesting issue when the patient asks you to perform a suboptimal technique that you likely don't perform routinely (and thus potentially higher risk) in order to avoid a complication that they were misinformed about.

Classis example is "allergies" to local anesthesia
not sure but no way I’m giving this crazy woman propofol. I tell residents “the patient can be a pain in your ass for the next hour OR the next 5 years.”

It’s a little rough but you can do colonoscopies with several other agents, brevital, fent/midaz, gas etc
 
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My question is what would you do for this patient for a lap chole if she also refuses volatile. Excluding the option to refuse to anaesthetise her... How would you maintain her?
 
Midazolam/Fentanyl induction if in hospital (not ASC) and no Etomidate available. Gas induction if not obese or other contraindication in ASC.
Reschedule when Etomidate available.
 
Some "allergies" I've seen recently in files:
- fentanyl leading to complete haemodynamic collapse ---> got some fentanyl prior to a chest drain for tension pneumothorax
- propofol infusion syndrome ---> hyperlactataemia without haemodynamic compromise while on salbutamol infusion for critical asthma
- volatile anaesthetics ---> unconsciousness
- anaesthetic agents (not specified) ---> cannot remember reaction from the 1980s

Did have someone come in refusing propofol because that's what killed Michael Jackson. Explained extensively that it's safe in our hands, still refused and doesn't want neuraxial either. Thiopentone.


In which country do you practice?
 
What if your surgery center doesn't have etomidate.

Do you do inhalation induction? What if it's a GI case?

Becomes an interesting issue when the patient asks you to perform a suboptimal technique that you likely don't perform routinely (and thus potentially higher risk) in order to avoid a complication that they were misinformed about.

Classis example is "allergies" to local anesthesia
Don’t do it. Don’t refuse though. Tell her your plan and if the pt. doesn’t like it too bad. Document everything.
 
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This woman is bananas and a grifter. She is looking to both cash out and to blame someone for all her maladies, the majority of which are likely supratentorial. I hope the Canadians have a reasonable burden of proof.


I should add that I have had patients exactly like this woman. I have had a few patients with drug allergies that made caring for them virtually impossible and in those cases I told them that perhaps it would be best if they had another physician at a different institution provide their care. A great example was when I had a patient and his wife who insisted that the 1mg of Ativan he was given for a prostate bx two years ago caused him months of cognitive issues. It definitely wasn’t the fact that he was in his 70s drinking 12-14 drinks per week and smoking weed daily. They wanted to know the class and pharmacology of every medication they were going to receive. I went over things in an appropriate fashion but there was no way I was going to go out of my way to let them pick and choose every aspect of the anesthetic. No benzos. Sure, not a problem. But huge deviations from standard of care were not going to happen.
 
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"suffers from chronic stress"

lol.
 
I wonder did the attending know how crazy this one was, before cracking on? I'm guessing they didn't, and just gave her some midaz then carried on...

Very few attendings would deliberately challenge a lunatic like this.

Hopefully that family get laughed out of court...
 
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My favorite part is the “79 adverse reactions reported” part at the end. Maybe someone will see that and think it’s a lot since there’s no mention that there have been millions upon millions of propofol administrations.
 
children want 2.3m each…probably damages from having to listen to this woman

Some "allergies" I've seen recently in files:
- fentanyl leading to complete haemodynamic collapse ---> got some fentanyl prior to a chest drain for tension pneumothorax
- propofol infusion syndrome ---> hyperlactataemia without haemodynamic compromise while on salbutamol infusion for critical asthma
- volatile anaesthetics ---> unconsciousness
- anaesthetic agents (not specified) ---> cannot remember reaction from the 1980s

Did have someone come in refusing propofol because that's what killed Michael Jackson. Explained extensively that it's safe in our hands, still refused and doesn't want neuraxial either. Thiopentone.
epinephrine - tachycardia
(given while treating actual contrast anaphylaxis)

Only the epi “allergy” was documented in EPIC and not contrast after the event. This patient was peri arrest in radiology and ended up in ED resus on epi get when I dug through her chart yet was adamant she could not have epinephrine. I can’t fathom which ***** counseled her and what they said after she was stabilized. And she didn’t know what a sulfite was either.

my attending told me to document and just go forward with her endo sedation case and if she ended up needing ACLS we’d do everything as normal
 
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For the ill- informed, but not actually crazy, a good pruning of the allergy list after discussion is an often overlooked option. "Ma'am, morphine did not cause you to be paralyzed for two hours during your c-section. You had a spinal anesthetic, and all drugs worked as intended. I am removing that allergy, and you can safely receive IV morphine without fear of being paralyzed again."
 
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If i saw that tattoo in preop I'm out. No way I'm going near this woman with anything.

I was curious about what she actually does to justify 4 million dollars of lost wages and as far as i can tell not much. She's a "health care advocate" who managed to get a meeting with Justin Trudeau and 30 million dollars for child chemotherapy research. Local advocate 'shocked' by $30M budget win for child cancer research
 
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For the ill- informed, but not actually crazy, a good pruning of the allergy list after discussion is an often overlooked option. "Ma'am, morphine did not cause you to be paralyzed for two hours during your c-section. You had a spinal anesthetic, and all drugs worked as intended. I am removing that allergy, and you can safely receive IV morphine without fear of being paralyzed again."
This is a noble cause.

The problem I have is that in the great majority of the cases when allergies aren't really allergies, there's a massive dose of crazy clouding the issue. If only these people were just ill-informed. Had one of these a few days ago. A dozen or so allergies, with the usual nutjob reactions ranging from "out of body experiences" with opioids and "made me feel weird" to "room got bright" to "flushing and itching" for vancomycin. I briefly considered explaining to her what red man syndrome was and that opioids get you high, thereby trimming that list, but I'd reached the edge of exhaustion just confirming her NPO status and that yes, she'd be asleep and I wouldn't let her wake up in the middle of surgery. So I just mentally said **** it and made my escape.

Maybe I'm a bad doctor.
 
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This is a noble cause.

The problem I have is that in the great majority of the cases when allergies aren't really allergies, there's a massive dose of crazy clouding the issue. If only these people were just ill-informed. Had one of these a few days ago. A dozen or so allergies, with the usual nutjob reactions ranging from "out of body experiences" with opioids and "made me feel weird" to "room got bright" to "flushing and itching" for vancomycin. I briefly considered explaining to her what red man syndrome was and that opioids get you high, thereby trimming that list, but I'd reached the edge of exhaustion just confirming her NPO status and that yes, she'd be asleep and I wouldn't let her wake up in the middle of surgery. So I just mentally said **** it and made my escape.

Maybe I'm a bad doctor.

Think that's just burnout
 
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A thing that dawned on me a while ago is that some crazy ppl really own their allergies. Even if they're ridiculous allergies... their allergies make them somehow special and they love a good argument over them. And love it even more when someone tries to persuade them of the truth.. it's another part of the victim persona they adopt to make them unique somehow and keeps then happy inside deep down, even if its very harmful for them overall
 
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A thing that dawned on me a while ago is that some crazy ppl really own their allergies. Even if they're ridiculous allergies... their allergies make them somehow special and they love a good argument over them. And love it even more when someone tries to persuade them of the truth.. it's another part of the victim persona they adopt to make them unique somehow and keeps then happy inside deep down, even if its very harmful for them overall
To expand this further some people love and own their diagnoses. They will seek out specialist and all sorts of support groups to bolster their credibility. You can present them with a ton of evidence to the contrary but they will truly believe in their diagnosis. I can think of several types of people that act in this fashion. I once had a patient tell me they had chronic Lyme and they even went to some quack for a PICC line and years of IV abx. I managed to track down their Lyme testing and they were negative for all Lyme IgG and IgM antibodies meaning no exposure EVER!!!
 
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This is a noble cause.

The problem I have is that in the great majority of the cases when allergies aren't really allergies, there's a massive dose of crazy clouding the issue. If only these people were just ill-informed. Had one of these a few days ago. A dozen or so allergies, with the usual nutjob reactions ranging from "out of body experiences" with opioids and "made me feel weird" to "room got bright" to "flushing and itching" for vancomycin. I briefly considered explaining to her what red man syndrome was and that opioids get you high, thereby trimming that list, but I'd reached the edge of exhaustion just confirming her NPO status and that yes, she'd be asleep and I wouldn't let her wake up in the middle of surgery. So I just mentally said **** it and made my escape.

Maybe I'm a bad doctor.
One day in Endo, I was feeling saltier than usual (probably because the GI kept having conversations between each case stretching the day beyond belief), and cured five people of their penicillin allergies. Truly, the Lord's work was done that day.
 
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I actually find this frightening and annoying. Like you all, I've had lots of made up PCN, propofol, fentanyl allergies. Assuming I have time I tell patients they are normal side effects and advise them that it's safe an appropriate.
 
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A thing that dawned on me a while ago is that some crazy ppl really own their allergies. Even if they're ridiculous allergies... their allergies make them somehow special and they love a good argument over them. And love it even more when someone tries to persuade them of the truth.. it's another part of the victim persona they adopt to make them unique somehow and keeps then happy inside deep down, even if its very harmful for them overall
100%
 
If what she is telling is accurate, I’ve made it my rule to not give patients medications that they specifically state not wanting. I witnessed a death from metoclopramide in which the patient had asked not be given. On one occasion previously she experienced an out of body experience with SOB which spontaneously resolved. The anaphylactic shock and death was the second time. I was not the person who gave it to her but it impacted me.
 
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Seems like a questionable allergy, but certainly an easy confrontation to avoid. How hard is it to anesthetize someone without propofol? I am pretty sure I have had several patients who had reasons to avoid propofol over the years, and I simply gave them something else. Ketamine, etomidate, sevoflurane, midazolam, these will anesthetize people easily.

It’s really easy to talk to people and come up with a plan they like.

Why invoke the nocebo effect? From now on, every vague symptom is now going to be from the propofol. Headache? Propofol. Malaise? Propofol. Car won’t start? Propofol. So don’t give propofol.

Edit: Occasionally people do have unusual reactions to propofol. I remember some years ago I was inducing some simple ortho case for which I had planned an LMA. Patient was a muscular male in in his 30s. I injected 200 mg of propofol, and the patient began to have pronounced myclonic jerks. I gave a second 200mg injection, and the patient stiffened, and became pretty rigid, and difficult to ventilate. I pushed some sux and intubated, and called for help. Naturally everything looked completely normal when my partners got there, so I felt a little silly, but it was definitely concerning about a minute earlier. I’ve also noticed a higher frequency of less severe myoclonic activity in response to propofol with chronic alcoholics.

Who knows? Probably benign, but honestly, if someone tattooed “no propofol” on their arm, it’s a bad idea to give propofol.
 
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My question is what would you do for this patient for a lap chole if she also refuses volatile. Excluding the option to refuse to anaesthetise her... How would you maintain her?


I did a few midaz/sufentanil TIVAs during residency. They’re not going home postop but it worked fine.

Midaz/remi would probably be even better.

At that time, we also did hearts with midaz 20mg and fentanyl 2-3mg+vec or pavulon and no vapor.
 
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And people wonder why I cherry pick around every crazy sounding person in the ED.
 
This is a noble cause.

The problem I have is that in the great majority of the cases when allergies aren't really allergies, there's a massive dose of crazy clouding the issue. If only these people were just ill-informed. Had one of these a few days ago. A dozen or so allergies, with the usual nutjob reactions ranging from "out of body experiences" with opioids and "made me feel weird" to "room got bright" to "flushing and itching" for vancomycin. I briefly considered explaining to her what red man syndrome was and that opioids get you high, thereby trimming that list, but I'd reached the edge of exhaustion just confirming her NPO status and that yes, she'd be asleep and I wouldn't let her wake up in the middle of surgery. So I just mentally said **** it and made my escape.

Maybe I'm a bad doctor.
The onus is also on the damn intake/pre-op nurses who document these "allergies". Put something as a sensitivity, but if you don't get anaphylaxis from something, it's not an allergy in my book.

I've had way too many folks say they don't like red meat and the nurses puts in "alpha-gal" as an allergy. Makes for a pain of an anesthetic trying to get anything through pharmacy.
 
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She sounds cray cray but a mitochondrial defect could be a possibility
 
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The onus is also on the damn intake/pre-op nurses who document these "allergies". Put something as a sensitivity, but if you don't get anaphylaxis from something, it's not an allergy in my book.

I've had way too many folks say they don't like red meat and the nurses puts in "alpha-gal" as an allergy. Makes for a pain of an anesthetic trying to get anything through pharmacy.
OMG how many PCN allergies out there that are a complete waste of time? It seems like half the population is under the impression they have a PCN allergy and are 99% incorrect
 
She sounds cray cray but a mitochondrial defect could be a possibility
Yes but typically mitochondrial dz manifests itself long before the age of 50 and wouldn’t it be passed along to her children?

Some of what she described sounded like typical myoclonus that is well described from propofol administration.
 
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children want 2.3m each…probably damages from having to listen to this woman
Most legit part of this whole claim is the kids' claim. Now for the rest of their lives (I guess the mom's life) they have to listen to her crazy rants about how this affected her and even worse her histrionics if they dare disagree or try to reason with her.

I second the approach of humoring these people as much as it kills me inside. I do love it when I see patients not related to my field with crazy complaints. It is my chance to get justice by telling them that I have no dog in the fight but their belief is not rational because of x, y, z. I will say it nicely and they can do whatever they want with the information. I like to think it sometimes makes a difference.
 
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Not sure which is dumber. The lawsuit or the fact that these guys actually gave her Propofol.
 
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ketamine,roc, turn on the gas, live happily ever after.
 
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