Can I get into med school without shadowing?

[ClementineWoolysocks]

I am going into my third year, and my adviser wants me to take the MCAT in the spring and apply to med schools as soon as my score comes in. I have not had much time for shadowing, because I have been trying to balance work, school, and the military. I have very little volunteering experience, but I just started volunteering at an emergency department where I plan to do 8 hours a week until I graduate. I am a medic in the Army Reserves, and I have been on two humanitarian missions (one to help out at a clinic on a Native American Reservation and the other was to help build schools and provide medical help to those in need in El Salvador- both 2 weeks long). I have a gpa of 3.77 and a science gpa of 3.6. I also just recently got a job at a hospital as a Patient Registration Representative, and I am definitely going to try to shadow the chief of medicine there. I just would like to know what my chances would be if I am unsuccessful at shadowing.

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[WedgeDawg]

Moving to pre-allo

 

[Temporary Superman]

I'm sure it's possible, but why not ask one of the doctors at the ED if you could tag along for a day or two, just to see what its like/have shadowing on your app?

 

[redferrari]

Possible? Certainly. Unlikely? Absolutely. Definitely try to shadow by the time you submit your application.

 

[takeurmeds02]

Yeah, you need to shadow a physician. Sure the healthcare experience is there but adcom is going to wonder and ask, "okay so I see that you've done work as a medic, why do you want to become a physician?"

It would be easier to pull a genuine response for this question if you've literally followed behind a doc for maybe half a shift or so and truly understood what they do after you've brought them the pt.

 

[confidentandgood]

Get as much shadowing as you can. You need to show them that you know what you're getting into. Countless applicants have the right stats but adcoms pick the people who exhibit true interest in the field.

 

[Traveler2016]

I didn't shadow before I applied and it never came up in any of my interviews. They want to see that you've had some experiences that have given you insight into what it would be like to work in the healthcare field and as a doctor. There are other ways you can get this insight aside from shadowing.

(I'm not saying that you shouldn't shadow. You should.. but a lack of shadowing on its own is certainly not going to make an acceptance "unlikely.")

 

[Law2Doc]

... You need to show them that you know what you're getting into...

More importantly than showing THEM that you know what you are getting into YOU need to know what you are getting into. This is going to be your career -- the goal shouldn't be to make excuses to avoid actually checking it out.

 

[takeurmeds02]

I didn't shadow before I applied and it never came up in any of my interviews. They want to see that you've had some experiences that have given you insight into what it would be like to work in the healthcare field and as a doctor. There are other ways you can get this insight aside from shadowing.

(I'm not saying that you shouldn't shadow.. just that a lack of shadowing on its own is certainly not going to make an acceptance "unlikely.")

I can't imagine that you'd be able to speak to work in the healthcare field as a doctor without having seen what they do..and not just in passing. But at any rate, grats to you. Nothing is set in stone; they are a million and one ways to get into medschool

 

[dougy]

just do it. easier than wrestling with it possible affect to your application.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

I got in with onl y 10 hours of shadowing and was never questioned about it. I did have a lot of healthcare experience though which made shadowing unnecessary

 

[Cotterpin]

One thing about shadowing has always seemed funny to me. Don't all people who have ever been to see a doctor have at least a basic idea of what a doctor does? Haven't we all been in patient's seat (or had a close family member there) enough times and in enough varied situations that we aren't completely clueless about what a doctor's job is? Sure, shadowing can give you insight into what they do when they're not seeing patients, but actually being a patient can give you insight as well.

 

[dougy]

One thing about shadowing has always seemed funny to me. Don't all people who have ever been to see a doctor have at least a basic idea of what a doctor does? Haven't we all been in patient's seat (or had a close family member there) enough times and in enough varied situations that we aren't completely clueless about what a doctor's job is? Sure, shadowing can give you insight into what they do when they're not seeing patients, but actually being a patient can give you insight as well.

not really, been to about 20 physicals and maybe 2 or 3 sick visits for a strep test. had never seen physicians in hospital setting until I shadowed (except on TV)

 

[Cotterpin]

not really, been to about 20 physicals and maybe 2 or 3 sick visits for a strep test. had never seen physicians in hospital setting until I shadowed (except on TV)

Maybe I see it this way because I'm older and have been to the doctor a lot and had a few medical emergencies and everyone else in my immediate family has a ton of medical issues including both parents with cancer. I knew what a doctor does waaaaaaay before I ever thought about becoming one.

There's a very large difference between what goes on in the exam room and out. I know this because I shadowed my own primary care doctor who I always thought was "too slow". Little did I know he actually jogs from room to room and screams at all the nurses to go faster.

That's why I said, "Sure, shadowing can give you insight into what they do when they're not seeing patients."

 

[Goro]

First off, many thanks for your service to our country.

Second, if you want to be a doctor, make time to shadow.

I am going into my third year, and my adviser wants me to take the MCAT in the spring and apply to med schools as soon as my score comes in. I have not had much time for shadowing, because I have been trying to balance work, school, and the military. I have very little volunteering experience, but I just started volunteering at an emergency department where I plan to do 8 hours a week until I graduate. I am a medic in the Army Reserves, and I have been on two humanitarian missions (one to help out at a clinic on a Native American Reservation and the other was to help build schools and provide medical help to those in need in El Salvador- both 2 weeks long). I have a gpa of 3.77 and a science gpa of 3.6. I also just recently got a job at a hospital as a Patient Registration Representative, and I am definitely going to try to shadow the chief of medicine there. I just would like to know what my chances would be if I am unsuccessful at shadowing.

 

[nwts]

I would also add that it probably isn't a good idea to just look at stats on how many accepted students had shadowing experience because that does not account for some very pertinent contextual information. For example, say 20% of people who get accepted don't have shadowing experience (I have no idea what the actual percentage is). That 20% looks like a pretty sizeable chunk, but keep in mind that some of these people may have worked as nurses or CNAs for a pretty good amount of time. If so, they probably have a much easier time saying: "I've seen doctors work, I don't need to shadow," than those of us whose only other clinical experience is volunteering.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Shadowing gets a bad rap on SDN, but personally I really liked shadowing and feel like I learned quite a bit. I recommend shadowing as many different providers as possible.

 

[Crayola227]

Maybe I see it this way because I'm older and have been to the doctor a lot and had a few medical emergencies and everyone else in my immediate family has a ton of medical issues including both parents with cancer. I knew what a doctor does waaaaaaay before I ever thought about becoming one.



That's why I said, "Sure, shadowing can give you insight into what they do when they're not seeing patients."

Yeah, but let's not act like that part isn't hugely significant. Medicine is very much an "act" like theater - you put on a show for the patients, but there's way more going on behind the scenes than they ever see.

I don't always trust the "physician shadowing" stats from the MSAR - there's a great variation to the sorts of gigs you can get working with a doctor and it depends on self-identifying the activity correctly. The 22% who got in without shadowing are easy to explain IMHO.

Don't stand out from the pack. Don't just rely on your experiences as a patient or other caregiver either.

 

[Tenk]

Volunteering in the ED is basically shadowing if you do it right, ie - talk to the physicians. I became interested in EM by volunteering and just talking to some of the docs there. (Just try not to talk tooooo much).

 

[avgn]

Would you buy a house without going to a showing?

 

[Cotterpin]

Yeah, but let's not act like that part isn't hugely significant. Medicine is very much an "act" like theater - you put on a show for the patients, but there's way more going on behind the scenes than they ever see.

I don't always trust the "physician shadowing" stats from the MSAR - there's a great variation to the sorts of gigs you can get working with a doctor and it depends on self-identifying the activity correctly. The 22% who got in without shadowing are easy to explain IMHO.

Don't stand out from the pack. Don't just rely on your experiences as a patient or other caregiver either.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I don't think a person applying to med school should only rely on their experiences as a patient, obviously. My original point was that I think it's silly to act a person would have no clue about a doctor's job without shadowing. Everybody knows what doctors do on some level. Maybe I don't know what a management consultant's job is like because those words are basically meaningless to me and I've never seen one working. But a doctor? I've seen tons of them.

Maybe what really annoys me about shadowing is how it seems like a pure box checking activity to me. No normal person would ever think to follow around a doctor all day just to see what they do. That is something only a premed would ever do. And like you say, you can get experiences that amount to shadowing by working a job with a doctor instead and that is real, valid work. Shadowing is like medical tourism.

 

[Crayola227]

No normal person would ever think to follow around a doctor all day just to see what they do. That is something only a premed would ever do. And like you say, you can get experiences that amount to shadowing by working a job with a doctor instead and that is real, valid work. Shadowing is like medical tourism.

LOL. Can't wait until you hit 3rd yr for the irony, for two reasons:
This is what 3rd and 4th year are like. It is not just something a premed would ever do.
And still, the "medical tourism" that is med ed (lmao) you will still realize 3rd year that you really had no idea what doctors did pre-med shadowing
FFS, I'm not even sure it's possible to know what it's like until you actually start intern year.

I think besides shadowing there are some other jobs that might teach you more.

Shadowing gets a bad rap - better learn how to get more out of it now, on your own, because that and more overglorified shadowing might be all there is between you and practice

 

[ronnicus]

What's the rule of thumb for # of shadowing experiences. I have 3 with about 10 hours each. Is that enough or should I do some more shadowing before I submit this cycle?

 

[Lawpy]

Would you buy a house without going to a showing?

"Here's another way of looking at it: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit or dress without trying it on??" @Goro

What's the rule of thumb for # of shadowing experiences. I have 3 with about 10 hours each. Is that enough or should I do some more shadowing before I submit this cycle?

Aim for 50 hours, and have some primary care shadowing.

 

[Cotterpin]

LOL. Can't wait until you hit 3rd yr for the irony, for two reasons:
This is what 3rd and 4th year are like. It is not just something a premed would ever do.
And still, the "medical tourism" that is med ed (lmao) you will still realize 3rd year that you really had no idea what doctors did pre-med shadowing
FFS, I'm not even sure it's possible to know what it's like until you actually start intern year.

I think besides shadowing there are some other jobs that might teach you more.

Shadowing gets a bad rap - better learn how to get more out of it now, on your own, because that and more overglorified shadowing might be all there is between you and practice

Obviously once you're actually in school getting a medical education it's different. I'm talking about how a normal person might volunteer at a hospital because they want to give back to their community or they might get a job working in a hospital or clinic or doctor's office because it's a job. No ordinary person is every going to say, "I'm really passionate about just standing there and watching doctors work, so I feel like doing that in my spare time."

 

[yungspleen]

I honestly think the shadowing requirement is stupid. It's so boring because you're just standing in a corner feeling like you're invading on the patient's privacy. Nobody wants a random 20-year-old kid watching them undress but they agree to it to avoid being rude. I don't get students who shadow a single doctor for like 100 hours. Are they that socially inept that they don't realize the doctor doesn't want a student tagging along with them for that long? I honestly have a decent idea of what a doctor does because I've been to dozens of doctors appointments. Watching the doctor go to their office and work on the patients' files doesn't really give me any more insight.

But with that said, I think you should do some hours just so it's not seen as a negative on your app. I just shadowed my dad's friend who is a surgeon for like 15 hours and chilled in his office for like half of that time because I pretty much got the gist of what he does after the first 5 hours.

 

[avgn]

Obviously once you're actually in school getting a medical education it's different. I'm talking about how a normal person might volunteer at a hospital because they want to give back to their community or they might get a job working in a hospital or clinic or doctor's office because it's a job. No ordinary person is every going to say, "I'm really passionate about just standing there and watching doctors work, so I feel like doing that in my spare time."

Because most ordinary people aren't interested in becoming doctors. If you're going to compare to premeds to ordinary people, there's a whole lot of **** we do that others don't have any interest in.

 

[IlDestriero]

Shadowing doesn't have to be a nightmare endeavor. Shoot for ~50 hours watching a 2 or 3 different physicians. You could knock that out easily. They just want to make sure you have some ideas of what life as a practicing physician is like.
If you have parent physicians, significant clinical exposure through a job or volunteering etc. you could probably get away with even less.


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Il Destriero

 

[avgn]

I honestly have a decent idea of what a doctor does because I've been to dozens of doctors appointments. Watching the doctor go to their office and work on the patients' files doesn't really give me any more insight.

Perhaps your definition of a doctor should expand beyond primary care physicians and general surgeons who see basic patients in clinic. Your post illustrates exactly one of the reasons for requiring shadowing: there are so many work environments you've never even seen, let alone understand.

 

[Crayola227]

I honestly think the shadowing requirement is stupid. It's so boring because you're just standing in a corner feeling like you're invading on the patient's privacy. Nobody wants a random 20-year-old kid watching them undress but they agree to it to avoid being rude. I don't get students who shadow a single doctor for like 100 hours. Are they that socially inept that they don't realize the doctor doesn't want a student tagging along with them for that long? I honestly have a decent idea of what a doctor does because I've been to dozens of doctors appointments. Watching the doctor go to their office and work on the patients' files doesn't really give me any more insight.

But with that said, I think you should do some hours just so it's not seen as a negative on your app. I just shadowed my dad's friend who is a surgeon for like 15 hours and chilled in his office for like half of that time because I pretty much got the gist of what he does after the first 5 hours.

smh

standing in the corner feeling useless will become your more than full time job for 2 years

I shadowed a psychiatrist, some doctors *love* to talk and they will give you as much teaching if not better than medical school, so no, you don't have to be socially inept to have a great relationship with a preceptor or their patients, in fact, the opposite

watching a doctor do paperwork is not educational, however, watching an encounter and getting to read the notes over their shoulder can be very valuable, again, I present exhibit "what most of med school clinical experience ends up being"
having them explain why they did/said certain things in the encounter, very valuable
learning how a doc thinks is a lot harder than being a patient ffs

I'm sorry if you're not getting more out of your shadow experience.

 

[Cotterpin]

Because most ordinary people aren't interested in becoming doctors. If you're going to compare to premeds to ordinary people, there's a whole lot of **** we do that others don't have any interest in.

That's my whole point. It's something that only a premed would do. It's a useless activity except for helping the shadower get into med school. Nobody else would ever think to do it. The other things premeds do like volunteering and research are actually things that other people would do. Those things have purpose outside of med school applications.

 

[yungspleen]

Perhaps your definition of a doctor should expand beyond primary care physicians and general surgeons who see basic patients in clinic. Your post illustrates exactly one of the reasons for requiring shadowing: there are so many work environments you've never even seen, let alone understand.

Isn't that the point of M3/M4? Pre-law students don't go intern for every type of attorney. Engineering students don't go follow around engineers in every single field. Medicine is unique because most students actually interact with many doctors throughout their lives. So this new trend of medical schools requiring students to follow around doctors is pointless. I've gotten a general sense of what a day in a doctor's life is like. I'm not sure what other work environments you're referring to. I'm not going to go shadowing in the ER and get in the doctor's way so that I can put a few more hours in my app. I'm also not going to follow around an oncologist and be like "hey I know you have cancer but is it cool if this teenager watches from the corner so that he can get into medical school. He's not going to provide any benefit to you but just let this stranger watch you get treatment."

Volunteering is enough. You get to view the setting of an office/hospital and actually do something beneficial. They need to do away with making shadowing a "requirement." People who want to follow around a doctor still can, but the majority of students hate it.

smh

standing in the corner feeling useless will become your more than full time job for 2 years

I shadowed a psychiatrist, some doctors *love* to talk and they will give you as much teaching if not better than medical school, so no, you don't have to be socially inept to have a great relationship with a preceptor or their patients, in fact, the opposite

watching a doctor do paperwork is not educational, however, watching an encounter and getting to read the notes over their shoulder can be very valuable, again, I present exhibit "what most of med school clinical experience ends up being"
having them explain why they did/said certain things in the encounter, very valuable
learning how a doc thinks is a lot harder than being a patient ffs

I'm sorry if you're not getting more out of your shadow experience.

Again, what M3/M4 is for. When you're actually in medical school. No patient wants you in the room if you aren't at least in medical school. I'm sorry. You aren't providing anything at all to the patient. You're just making them uncomfortable.

 

[Crayola227]

That's my whole point. It's something that only a premed would do. It's a useless activity except for helping the shadower get into med school. Nobody else would ever think to do it.

I beg to differ. I bet tons of people would love to follow a doc around for a day - hence the reason there's so many medical shows on tv. The only thing is that 90% of what we do is boring to watch not particpate in IRL. Hence why shadowing is required.

If one can't sit through the boredom of pre-med shadowing for 50 hours, I shudder to think of what med school will be like for someone. Just another sad statistic maybe.

 

[avgn]

That's my whole point. It's something that only a premed would do. It's a useless activity except for helping the shadower get into med school. Nobody else would ever think to do it. The other things premeds do like volunteering and research are actually things that other people would do. Those things have purpose outside of med school applications.

It's your point, not my point. It's still helpful for most premeds in more ways than just the admissions portion. The main benefits of getting into a physician's life is only useful to premeds, so other people aren't interested. Obviously you don't think that and are perhaps bitter as a reapplicant but I was not agreeing with you.

 

[yungspleen]

Obviously you don't think that and are perhaps bitter as a reapplicant

That wasn't called for

 

[Cotterpin]

It's your point, not my point. It's still helpful for most premeds in more ways than just the admissions portion. The main benefits of getting into a physician's life is only useful to premeds, so other people aren't interested. Obviously you don't think that and are perhaps bitter as a reapplicant but I was not agreeing with you.

It's only useful to premeds and therefore it's not very useful in reality. That's it. That's my point. I don't think you're agreeing with me. I think we're saying the same thing, but have a different perspective on what it means.

Maybe you're assuming that I'm upset about shadowing because I didn't do it and that's the reason why I'm reapplying. But you're wrong about that. I did shadowing. I just think it's the most box-checky of all the premed "requirements."

 

[Lawpy]

They need to do away with making shadowing a "requirement." People who want to follow around a doctor still can, but the majority of students hate it.

Shadowing isn't really a requirement though. There are plenty of applicants in the past few cycles (including some respected SDNers) who got into many good medical schools without any shadowing (including the current attendings/residents who actively support shadowing). It is also reasonable to state that you learn more about medicine + physician's duties via clinical volunteering, clinical research/trials, and/or simply reading through newspapers/magazines focusing on healthcare.

Shadowing is a self-centered opportunity, not a requirement. You simply need to show adcoms that you know what physicians do on a daily basis.

 

[yungspleen]

Shadowing isn't really a requirement though. There are plenty of applicants in the past few cycles (including some respected SDNers) who got into many good medical schools without any shadowing (including the current attendings/residents who actively support shadowing). It is also reasonable to state that you learn more about medicine + physician's duties via clinical volunteering, clinical research/trials, and/or simply reading through newspapers/magazines focusing on healthcare.

Shadowing is a self-centered opportunity, not a requirement. You simply need to show adcoms that you know what physicians do on a daily basis.

Agreed. Not really a "requirement" but more just something more and more people have on their apps. The only way to fix this is for doctors to stop letting students shadow them.

 

[Goro]

There's a difference between interacting with patients and seeing what doctors do. Big difference. This isn't box checking, and even though it's not a requirement for medical school, it is necessary. U WA takes it so seriously that they want applicants to have > 100 hrs of shadowing!

The idea is not merely to let people know what a doctor's day is like, it's to show people how different doctor's practice Medicine.

Too many people are starry eyed about a career in Medicine and think everything is like an episode of House.

Obviously once you're actually in school getting a medical education it's different. I'm talking about how a normal person might volunteer at a hospital because they want to give back to their community or they might get a job working in a hospital or clinic or doctor's office because it's a job. No ordinary person is every going to say, "I'm really passionate about just standing there and watching doctors work, so I feel like doing that in my spare time."

 

[dougy]

I like the whole shadowing concept. Get a really in depth look at what MDs are doing all day, how incredibly long and hard the work days are, the crazy patients, the paperwork required....so many undergrads like the idea of being a doctor without even knowing what's involved. Schools are making huge decisions with their small number of seats with candidates that often look alike. Wouldn't you pick the candidate that was sure of what he was signing up for before you allowed them to borrow a sinful amount of money and waste your seat, energy and effort training them? It's so different from undergrad where attrition doesn't hurt, it's a two way investment.

 

[DocWinter]

You need to shadow not because admissions wants to see you log those hours, you need to shadow because you're about to make the largest purchase of your life. If you never see the inside of the hospital for a number of working hours, how in the world can you say you want to spend 2 years paying for medical school in one, then to spend 4 more years at 80 hrs/week in one, to then be in one for the rest of your working life?

 

[Cotterpin]

There's a difference between interacting with patients and seeing what doctors do. Big difference. This isn't box checking, and even though it's not a requirement for medical school, it is necessary. U WA takes it so seriously that they want applicants to have > 100 hrs of shadowing!

Too many people are starry eyed about a career in Medicine and think everything is like an episode of House.

Yeah, those people are out there. But is there really no other way to know what a career in medicine is like? what about all the other people who have years of jobs where they work with doctors or who have done a lot of clinical research? Do you really have to have dedicated time to just following a doctor around and nothing else?

Everybody seems to be misunderstanding me and thinking I'm saying that all you need is to go to the doctor a couple of times and you know enough to go to med school. No. Absolutely not. I said that it's an exaggeration to think that the only way to have a clue about medicine is to shadow. I said that everyone who's been to the doctor enough times has some idea. Not knowing everything. They just aren't completely clueless about it.

 

[yungspleen]

I like the whole shadowing concept. Get a really in depth look at what MDs are doing all day, how incredibly long and hard the work days are, the crazy patients, the paperwork required....so many undergrads like the idea of being a doctor without even knowing what's involved. Schools are making huge decisions with their small number of seats with candidates that often look alike. Wouldn't you pick the candidate that was sure of what he was signing up for before you allowed them to borrow a sinful amount of money and waste your seat, energy and effort training them? It's so different from undergrad where attrition doesn't hurt, it's a two way investment.

I like how everyone's argument for shadowing is so that premeds can see "how medicine is not as great as they think it is." What a great attitude to have before even starting medical school

 

[dougy]

I like how everyone's argument for shadowing is so that premeds can see "how medicine is not as great as they think it is." What a great attitude to have before even starting medical school

Actually post shadowing thought, I know much of what's involved and thinks it's great! I'm willing to spend a quarter of a million dollars and 10 years of my life to do it!

 

[nwts]

I like how everyone's argument for shadowing is so that premeds can see "how medicine is not as great as they think it is." What a great attitude to have before even starting medical school

I don't think it's so much pessimism as realism. Since the medical field is one of the most popular fields to portray in tv and movies, it is also one of the most misunderstood. While most people will tell you that they realize that the medical field isn't as dramatic as what you see on tv, I think people still subconsciously think there's a whole lot of sprinting down halls to save lives. People need to have an experience with how mundane most days in medicine are so that they can make an informed decision about whether or not it's the right field for them. I don't think shadowing is meant to show you that the medical field sucks, but more to show you that it's not all about having 10 patients each day who go into cardiac arrest and then walk out on their own that afternoon.

 

[Goro]

If has been employed in the medical field, then it would be OK not to shadow. I consider scribing to be a form of shadowing. But you don't think it's worthwhile to see how a surgeon does his/her job versus a family doc vs a nephrologist????

Having been on SDN since ~2012, I never, ever underestimate the cluelessness of pre-meds.

Yeah, those people are out there. But is there really no other way to know what a career in medicine is like? what about all the other people who have years of jobs where they work with doctors or who have done a lot of clinical research? Do you really have to have dedicated time to just following a doctor around and nothing else?

Everybody seems to be misunderstanding me and thinking I'm saying that all you need is to go to the doctor a couple of times and you know enough to go to med school. No. Absolutely not. I said that it's an exaggeration to think that the only way to have a clue about medicine is to shadow. I said that everyone who's been to the doctor enough times has some idea. Not knowing everything. They just aren't completely clueless about it.

 

[Goro]

You're not getting it, and if you approach this process with a box-checker's mentality, you'll never be a doctor.

I like how everyone's argument for shadowing is so that premeds can see "how medicine is not as great as they think it is." What a great attitude to have before even starting medical school

 

[yungspleen]

You're not getting it, and if you approach this process with a box-checker's mentality, you'll never be a doctor.

Thank you, but my stats say otherwise

 

[Lawpy]

You need to shadow not because admissions wants to see you log those hours, you need to shadow because you're about to make the largest purchase of your life. If you never see the inside of the hospital for a number of working hours, how in the world can you say you want to spend 2 years paying for medical school in one, then to spend 4 more years at 80 hrs/week in one, to then be in one for the rest of your working life?

Huh? Clinical volunteering and clinical research accomplish that. This isn't unique to shadowing, which is a self-centered opportunity.

Agreed. Not really a "requirement" but more just something more and more people have on their apps. The only way to fix this is for doctors to stop letting students shadow them.

Hm that's a bit extreme. I think shadowing should be completely deemphasized in medical school admissions. It is a self-centered opportunity that benefits only the applicant as opposed to clinical volunteering and research.

But some doctors should allow for shadowing for any interested students. It's no different from job shadowing in other careers. It's just that admissions requiring shadowing doesn't make sense because no other career does that. Shadowing is just for your own benefits and interests.

You're not getting it, and if you approach this process with a box-checker's mentality, you'll never be a doctor.

This is way too extreme. Cookie cutter by definition involves box checking and cookie cutter applicants get into medical schools of every tier without a problem.

 

[Goro]

You may very well get II's but you have to convince the interviewers and the Adcom. That may be your downfall.

Thank you, but my stats say otherwise