Bruh, auditions are tough.

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Spectreman

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Sick of the game y’all... Tired of pissing contests and walking on eggshells. Tired of constantly worrying about how I’m being judged and perceived. Coming to the end of my first audition and I’m definitely moving into the “screw it, I’m going to act like myself and if you don’t like me then whatever.”

Don’t want to get too specific because what if someone reads this from my program (again, MF eggshells), but I’m sick of people trying to act like I’m headed for a terrible life because of the field I want. Sorry you hate yourself pal, but we aren’t the same people and not everyone here is going to end up divorced and miserable.

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Sick of the game y’all... Tired of pissing contests and walking on eggshells. Tired of constantly worrying about how I’m being judged and perceived. Coming to the end of my first audition and I’m definitely moving into the “screw it, I’m going to act like myself and if you don’t like me then whatever.”

Don’t want to get too specific because what if someone reads this from my program (again, MF eggshells), but I’m sick of people trying to act like I’m headed for a terrible life because of the field I want. Sorry you hate yourself pal, but we aren’t the same people and not everyone here is going to end up divorced and miserable.

Sounds like you're in a bad program then. Audition rotations are two-way streets. You audition for them, but you're also seeing if that program is a good fit for you. If you're feeling forced like that, a good sign that program may not be for you. As for the field, your other auditions, etc should help you decide.
 
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Some of it may be that you're too critical of yourself. Alternatively it may be purely that the program itself isn't a good fit. You're going to be working with those residents in the future. And if you can't get along then it's a poor fit.
 
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Good luck in the SOAP.

what.jpg
 
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Wait till you audition with a student from another school who is ALSO auditioning. They will enjoy playing you two off each other. You job on audition is to always be there. If they merely want you, they expect you to walk in. Know most of the answers to questions. If you miss a couple, its ok. They will take you to the edge of your knowledge. Be helpful, make them chase you out of the hospital with a stick. If all this is too stressful, maybe its a signal that residency or specialty is not a good fit. Good luck and best wishes!
 
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Out of the 10+ eyes on you from residents to attendings, you just need one bad review to land your name on the DNR list. Most of the times, it’s not your fault and could be due to the residents/attending having a bad day or going through some problem at home like a divorce.

Unlike the success story on sdn, most auditions are wastes of time unless that’s your dream program or reach program. You need to get something out of that audition like taking some time off to do something unique to that area. If they are going to judge you, forget them. They need to sell themselves to you as well.

This comes from someone who did 2 university rotations, and matched to another university program that I never auditioned at.
 
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Out of the 10+ eyes on you from residents to attendings, you just need one bad review to land your name on the DNR list. Most of the times, it’s not your fault and could be due to the residents/attending having a bad day or going through some problem at home like a divorce.

Unlike the success story on sdn, most auditions are wastes of time unless that’s your dream program or reach program. You need to get something out of that audition like taking some time off to do something unique to that area. If they are going to judge you, forget them. They need to sell themselves to you as well.

This comes from someone who did 2 university rotations, and matched to another university program that I never auditioned at.
n=1, not great advice.
 
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Angus Avogadro is correct.
Students who act like rebels and say "“screw it, I’m going to act like myself and if you don’t like me then whatever.” are at higher risk of not matching. Audition rotations are not a good time to be a rebel and to act like you don't give a ---- about what anyone else thinks.

I think it's somewhat of a stretch to go to the extreme and think that the OP's just totally given up. I don't know him or her, but I'm guessing that because he/she knows the gravity of the situation, they're not going to do anything to hurt themselves. They may even end up being more highly rated in the end because they were more relaxed and a more likeable version of themselves. But of course, we don't know either way.
 
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Angus Avogadro is correct.
Students who act like rebels and say "“screw it, I’m going to act like myself and if you don’t like me then whatever.” are at higher risk of not matching. Audition rotations are not a good time to be a rebel and to act like you don't give a ---- about what anyone else thinks.

Absolutely. I personally had a few applicants who I put DNRs on because they were cringey to be around. Like if you're incredibly bro or you just don't really care or take well or you're constantly trying to undercut people then I'm not going to want to train you the next year or go out to events to with.

Be respectful, maintain appropriate boundaries, do your work, and if you don't know something try to reason through it and ask for recommendations at reasonable intervals. Likewise yes, please do your best to make the people you're with think you actually like their program or want to go there. If I get that you don't really strongly care for us, then I'm not going to strongly care for you. In the end my program has a rank list of adequate people and I know we won't need to go down it too far before we're booked.
 
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Should clarify that I am auditioning with other students and they have been awesome, we are close friends at this point and get each other's back whenever we can. The pissing contest is between the residents and it's more of them just **** talking each other constantly and making each other look bad in front of attendings, throwing each other under the bus left and right. Overall this is more of a clicking/mesh issue I'm sure, but there are many other specific things that are breaking me down. Like, in my soul type breaking me down. Again, I can't go into specifics. I am genuinely trying to put my best foot forward and not get bogged down by people calling me an idiot for wanting my field of choice on a daily basis. And by "screw it I'm going to act life myself" I mean being more relaxed. I was told, literally, to not approach the bed during rounds and two days later told I'm being too passive on rounds - that's just one tiny example. Again, eggshells all the time. Now I'm just helping when I can because it feels like the appropriate thing to do and not getting up there when it feels forced. The stress that auditions is causing me definitely comes from being too hard on myself, I agree with that comment above. Thank you for the constructive advice.
 
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Should clarify that I am auditioning with other students and they have been awesome, we are close friends at this point and get each other's back whenever we can. The pissing contest is between the residents and it's more of them just **** talking each other constantly and making each other look bad in front of attendings, throwing each other under the bus left and right. Overall this is more of a clicking/mesh issue I'm sure, but there are many other specific things that are breaking me down. Like, in my soul type breaking me down. Again, I can't go into specifics. I am genuinely trying to put my best foot forward and not get bogged down by people calling me an idiot for wanting my field of choice on a daily basis. And by "screw it I'm going to act life myself" I mean being more relaxed. I was told, literally, to not approach the bed during rounds and two days later told I'm being too passive on rounds - that's just one tiny example. Again, eggshells all the time. Now I'm just helping when I can because it feels like the appropriate thing to do and not getting up there when it feels forced. The stress that auditions is causing me definitely comes from being too hard on myself, I agree with that comment above. Thank you for the constructive advice.

Sounds like a **** program. Not specialty. Not auditions. The program. I know you dont want to get into too many specifics but can you at least say the specialty?
 
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Sounds like a **** program. Not specialty. Not auditions. The program. I know you dont want to get into too many specifics but can you at least say the specialty?
I'd really rather not, sorry. I run the risk of burning mad bridges and I just needed some people to talk to about all this. Appreciate everyone understanding. Almost wish I posted under a burner account and kept it even more vague. Thanks everyone.
 
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Should clarify that I am auditioning with other students and they have been awesome, we are close friends at this point and get each other's back whenever we can. The pissing contest is between the residents and it's more of them just **** talking each other constantly and making each other look bad in front of attendings, throwing each other under the bus left and right. Overall this is more of a clicking/mesh issue I'm sure, but there are many other specific things that are breaking me down. Like, in my soul type breaking me down. Again, I can't go into specifics. I am genuinely trying to put my best foot forward and not get bogged down by people calling me an idiot for wanting my field of choice on a daily basis. And by "screw it I'm going to act life myself" I mean being more relaxed. I was told, literally, to not approach the bed during rounds and two days later told I'm being too passive on rounds - that's just one tiny example. Again, eggshells all the time. Now I'm just helping when I can because it feels like the appropriate thing to do and not getting up there when it feels forced. The stress that auditions is causing me definitely comes from being too hard on myself, I agree with that comment above. Thank you for the constructive advice.
So it’s probably surgery then. I think that context is important. I think a lot of people would be quick to point out that this is a ****ty program or culture. I know you’re not providing specifics, but I could see how being genuinely imbedded in surgical culture as an auditioning student might be daunting. For most medical students this would be culture shock, and you should probably look to do an away elsewhere to see if surgery culture is for you.

I could be wrong though.....
 
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I used to sit on the resident selection comittee at my former university program. Auditioning was important.
I was looking for an applicant who was going to get along with staff, other residents, and attendings. Quite frankly, if I thought an applicant was a hard worker and team player with appropriate social skills, I would fight for them. Knowledge base was not as important to me
I mean, its my job to teach them, right? We got burnt a couple times from top 20 programs who sent us idiots that looked good on paper. I can think of 2 who I still carry scars from. Give me a hard worker who gets along and I will teach them. Not everyone shares my views so YMMV.
 
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I hear stories like this often and think to myself "what were you doing in 3rd year"? Adopt a pattern of treating every rotation like it's what you want to do forever, and it will be a near-seamless transition into 4th-year auditions. I worked my ass off, but I was having the time of my life on my auditions. Maybe it was the programs, but maybe it's the attitude too.
 
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Man SDN is like the worst place to come and vent to. Hang in there OP
 
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Anytime I start a new rotation I kinda temper down my personality, but within a couple days it naturally expands out again. I still remain professional, respectful, and cognizant of the environment. But I act more like myself not a subdued version. In the end I’m way happier and so far I’ve always received good feedback on my presence.

Sure, being yourself isn’t a good idea if for example that would mean berating a nurse. But my being myself means laughing when I’m working on the computer next to the nurses and they make a joke. Or talking to the nurses about our patient later in the afternoon and then telling them they’re doing a great job. I do these things not for any 3rd party but because they are who I am.
 
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Auditions suck, I hated feeling like I was under the microscope all the time, and I HATED the pissy personalities of most of the residents I worked with.

I did an Sub-I style rotation in IM, it was literally one of the worst experiences of my life. I was miserable, literally the entire month. I kid you not, I nearly quit Med-school that month because I told myself “if this is what the next step is going to be like, count me out”. It was the end of 3rd year, so not an official Sub-I, but I was expected to carry 2-3 inpatients, I was given a pager and called for my own admits as part of the rotation on the team; and it was very much structured as a sub-I.

I don’t mind saying where: It was at Providence St. Vincent Hospital in Portland, Oregon. The residents were just plain toxic. The culture was terrible. I legitimately determined that I’d rather walk away with 6-figures of debt and no doctor salary than train there.

Examples:

1. Interns were so high strung and stressed that whenever seniors and attendings weren’t around they were advising me to run away, and not even consider their program. They were MISERABLE.

2. Senior residents who were either worthless and passive, or were worthless and hyper aggressive. The one I worked under the most was aggressive. The other was passive and uninvolved. The aggressive one wouldn’t let anyone get more than a sentence out in rounds before she was interrupting, accusing people of not knowing something, and disallowing the presentation to continue and saying “we need to talk more about this topic later” and just finishing the day’s plan with the attending while the rest of us just sat there wondering what the hell was going on. This teaching, which was supposed to occur “later” of course never happened, not even once. She probably couldn’t have taught us anyway, I didn’t get the impression she was capable of anything other than toxicity. This behavior was demonstrated with students, and interns alike. Attendings generally just sat there and signed charts or texted, they didn’t even seem to be paying attention to what was going on.

3. Zero teaching, I mean ZERO. Even teaching about the general quirks of their program and how they handled logistics of patient care etc. My residents would disappear for hours after rounds. More than once the senior would excuse us for breakfast or lunch and tell us to meet in the workroom in 30mins, I’d go grab a bite, take it to the workroom and wait; no one would show, and then no one would answer phone or text. They’d all meet up somewhere else and then be pissed that I didn’t know where they were and that I’d missed some bedside teaching or something. It’s hard to be somewhere if you aren’t informed of where to be.

4. At the end of it all I was sat down for a feedback session with an attending, and asked how I thought it went. I let fly with my impressions of the month, I literally didn’t hold back. I told them that I felt like I was literally set up to fail from day 1. That their interns were miserable, their seniors (at least the one I worked with the most) were toxic and all but impossible to learn from. That I felt like the month was a giant waste of my time and that I was just glad it was over, and that if I learned anything, it was that I needed to KNOW the culture of any future residency program I planned to rank. The attending tried to tell me I should have been more vocal about my concerns early on, that they would have liked to help, and I just laughed and told her: “You were freaking there on rounds when the senior resident wouldn’t allow me to present a patient without interrupting me over and over mid-sentence, through the entire presentation so she could try to “pimp” me. She didn’t even teach when she interrupted, then she’d act upset that my presentation didn’t flow well. You did nothing.
OP don’t stress it, which I know is easy advice to give and hard advice to follow. If this is your field, do your best, try not to show how jaded you are, and get out of there. But don’t let the politics of this particular program ruin you. Maybe all you’ll come away from this rotation with is a knowledge that you don’t want to train there; but that‘s actually valuable information.

But I agree, auditions/Sub-I’s are the worst.
 
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Auditions suck, I hated feeling like I was under the microscope all the time, and I HATED the pissy personalities of most of the residents I worked with.

I did an Sub-I style rotation in IM, it was literally one of the worst experiences of my life. I was miserable, literally the entire month. I kid you not, I nearly quit Med-school that month because I told myself “if this is what the next step is going to be like, count me out”. It was the end of 3rd year, so not an official Sub-I, but I was expected to carry 2-3 inpatients, I was given a pager and called for my own admits as part of the rotation on the team; and it was very much structured as a sub-I.

I don’t mind saying where: It was at Providence St. Vincent Hospital in Portland, Oregon. The residents were just plain toxic. The culture was terrible. I legitimately determined that I’d rather walk away with 6-figures of debt and no doctor salary than train there.

Examples:

1. Interns were so high strung and stressed that whenever seniors and attendings weren’t around they were advising me to run away, and not even consider their program. They were MISERABLE.

2. Senior residents who were either worthless and passive, or were worthless and hyper aggressive. The one I worked under the most was aggressive. The other was passive and uninvolved. The aggressive one wouldn’t let anyone get more than a sentence out in rounds before she was interrupting, accusing people of not knowing something, and disallowing the presentation to continue and saying “we need to talk more about this topic later” and just finishing the day’s plan with the attending while the rest of us just sat there wondering what the hell was going on. This teaching, which was supposed to occur “later” of course never happened, not even once. She probably couldn’t have taught us anyway, I didn’t get the impression she was capable of anything other than toxicity. This behavior was demonstrated with students, and interns alike. Attendings generally just sat there and signed charts or texted, they didn’t even seem to be paying attention to what was going on.

3. Zero teaching, I mean ZERO. Even teaching about the general quirks of their program and how they handled logistics of patient care etc. My residents would disappear for hours after rounds. More than once the senior would excuse us for breakfast or lunch and tell us to meet in the workroom in 30mins, I’d go grab a bite, take it to the workroom and wait; no one would show, and then no one would answer phone or text. They’d all meet up somewhere else and then be pissed that I didn’t know where they were and that I’d missed some bedside teaching or something. It’s hard to be somewhere if you aren’t informed of where to be.

4. At the end of it all I was sat down for a feedback session with an attending, and asked how I thought it went. I let fly with my impressions of the month, I literally didn’t hold back. I told them that I felt like I was literally set up to fail from day 1. That their interns were miserable, their seniors (at least the one I worked with the most) were toxic and all but impossible to learn from. That I felt like the month was a giant waste of my time and that I was just glad it was over, and that if I learned anything, it was that I needed to KNOW the culture of any future residency program I planned to rank. The attending tried to tell me I should have been more vocal about my concerns early on, that they would have liked to help, and I just laughed and told her: “You were freaking there on rounds when the senior resident wouldn’t allow me to present a patient without interrupting me over and over mid-sentence, through the entire presentation so she could try to “pimp” me. She didn’t even teach when she interrupted, then she’d act upset that my presentation didn’t flow well. You did nothing.
OP don’t stress it, which I know is easy advice to give and hard advice to follow. If this is your field, do your best, try not to show how jaded you are, and get out of there. But don’t let the politics of this particular program ruin you. Maybe all you’ll come away from this rotation with is a knowledge that you don’t want to train there; but that‘s actually valuable information.

But I agree, auditions/Sub-I’s are the worst.

LOL Let’s just say that I’m not surprised.

Surprisingly, the surgical residents and fellows there are pretty chill.
 
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LOL Let’s just say that I’m not surprised.

Surprisingly, the surgical residents and fellows there are pretty chill.
That would’ve also been like 5+ years ago now they had that experience. The program culture could’ve change by now... but probably not
 
Auditions suck, I hated feeling like I was under the microscope all the time, and I HATED the pissy personalities of most of the residents I worked with.

I did an Sub-I style rotation in IM, it was literally one of the worst experiences of my life. I was miserable, literally the entire month. I kid you not, I nearly quit Med-school that month because I told myself “if this is what the next step is going to be like, count me out”. It was the end of 3rd year, so not an official Sub-I, but I was expected to carry 2-3 inpatients, I was given a pager and called for my own admits as part of the rotation on the team; and it was very much structured as a sub-I.

I don’t mind saying where: It was at Providence St. Vincent Hospital in Portland, Oregon. The residents were just plain toxic. The culture was terrible. I legitimately determined that I’d rather walk away with 6-figures of debt and no doctor salary than train there.

Examples:

1. Interns were so high strung and stressed that whenever seniors and attendings weren’t around they were advising me to run away, and not even consider their program. They were MISERABLE.

2. Senior residents who were either worthless and passive, or were worthless and hyper aggressive. The one I worked under the most was aggressive. The other was passive and uninvolved. The aggressive one wouldn’t let anyone get more than a sentence out in rounds before she was interrupting, accusing people of not knowing something, and disallowing the presentation to continue and saying “we need to talk more about this topic later” and just finishing the day’s plan with the attending while the rest of us just sat there wondering what the hell was going on. This teaching, which was supposed to occur “later” of course never happened, not even once. She probably couldn’t have taught us anyway, I didn’t get the impression she was capable of anything other than toxicity. This behavior was demonstrated with students, and interns alike. Attendings generally just sat there and signed charts or texted, they didn’t even seem to be paying attention to what was going on.

3. Zero teaching, I mean ZERO. Even teaching about the general quirks of their program and how they handled logistics of patient care etc. My residents would disappear for hours after rounds. More than once the senior would excuse us for breakfast or lunch and tell us to meet in the workroom in 30mins, I’d go grab a bite, take it to the workroom and wait; no one would show, and then no one would answer phone or text. They’d all meet up somewhere else and then be pissed that I didn’t know where they were and that I’d missed some bedside teaching or something. It’s hard to be somewhere if you aren’t informed of where to be.

4. At the end of it all I was sat down for a feedback session with an attending, and asked how I thought it went. I let fly with my impressions of the month, I literally didn’t hold back. I told them that I felt like I was literally set up to fail from day 1. That their interns were miserable, their seniors (at least the one I worked with the most) were toxic and all but impossible to learn from. That I felt like the month was a giant waste of my time and that I was just glad it was over, and that if I learned anything, it was that I needed to KNOW the culture of any future residency program I planned to rank. The attending tried to tell me I should have been more vocal about my concerns early on, that they would have liked to help, and I just laughed and told her: “You were freaking there on rounds when the senior resident wouldn’t allow me to present a patient without interrupting me over and over mid-sentence, through the entire presentation so she could try to “pimp” me. She didn’t even teach when she interrupted, then she’d act upset that my presentation didn’t flow well. You did nothing.
OP don’t stress it, which I know is easy advice to give and hard advice to follow. If this is your field, do your best, try not to show how jaded you are, and get out of there. But don’t let the politics of this particular program ruin you. Maybe all you’ll come away from this rotation with is a knowledge that you don’t want to train there; but that‘s actually valuable information.

But I agree, auditions/Sub-I’s are the worst.
#1 big time at this program. Residents are miserable and throw each other under the bus like crazy. They hate the PD and APD and actively avoid them. When they know they have to work with them they dread it for DAYS leading up to it. Another sign is the program has horrible attrition. Multiple residents have quit over the last several years and the ones who were above them are the ones telling me not to come cause I’ll end up divorced and miserable. That said I’ve heard active chatter literally right in front of me about other students who have been there that they loved and plan to fight for come rank time. So they definitely have issues with me personally beyond their own problems.

I’ve learned many good lessons though and I feel like I’ll be a better resident because of my time here. Gonna try to keep my head up and not vent in such a public forum. SDN has helped me cultivate some great friendships and in the future I’ll probably just reach out to them privately rather than start a thread.
 
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From another current auditioner, yes they are tough. They’re supposed to be tough though. It’s a month long interview to see if you’re worth going to bat for come interview/rank time. Of the auditions I’ve been on so far, only one was a place I didn’t really care for and even then if I’m honest with myself it’s because I didn’t know what to expect and wasn’t yet quite up to snuff from a technical or knowledge base perspective. Having said that, what I learned from that program has been invaluable in the auditions I’ve had since. Remember to keep your nose to the grind stone and take what you can from each audition and then even if you don’t like the program you still come away a better, more prepared applicant for the next one.
 
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The dynamics of audition rotations, the differences between MD and DO 4th year - especially during a pandemic - are fascinating to me.
 
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Auditions suck, I hated feeling like I was under the microscope all the time, and I HATED the pissy personalities of most of the residents I worked with.

I did an Sub-I style rotation in IM, it was literally one of the worst experiences of my life. I was miserable, literally the entire month. I kid you not, I nearly quit Med-school that month because I told myself “if this is what the next step is going to be like, count me out”. It was the end of 3rd year, so not an official Sub-I, but I was expected to carry 2-3 inpatients, I was given a pager and called for my own admits as part of the rotation on the team; and it was very much structured as a sub-I.

I don’t mind saying where: It was at Providence St. Vincent Hospital in Portland, Oregon. The residents were just plain toxic. The culture was terrible. I legitimately determined that I’d rather walk away with 6-figures of debt and no doctor salary than train there.

Examples:

1. Interns were so high strung and stressed that whenever seniors and attendings weren’t around they were advising me to run away, and not even consider their program. They were MISERABLE.

2. Senior residents who were either worthless and passive, or were worthless and hyper aggressive. The one I worked under the most was aggressive. The other was passive and uninvolved. The aggressive one wouldn’t let anyone get more than a sentence out in rounds before she was interrupting, accusing people of not knowing something, and disallowing the presentation to continue and saying “we need to talk more about this topic later” and just finishing the day’s plan with the attending while the rest of us just sat there wondering what the hell was going on. This teaching, which was supposed to occur “later” of course never happened, not even once. She probably couldn’t have taught us anyway, I didn’t get the impression she was capable of anything other than toxicity. This behavior was demonstrated with students, and interns alike. Attendings generally just sat there and signed charts or texted, they didn’t even seem to be paying attention to what was going on.

3. Zero teaching, I mean ZERO. Even teaching about the general quirks of their program and how they handled logistics of patient care etc. My residents would disappear for hours after rounds. More than once the senior would excuse us for breakfast or lunch and tell us to meet in the workroom in 30mins, I’d go grab a bite, take it to the workroom and wait; no one would show, and then no one would answer phone or text. They’d all meet up somewhere else and then be pissed that I didn’t know where they were and that I’d missed some bedside teaching or something. It’s hard to be somewhere if you aren’t informed of where to be.

4. At the end of it all I was sat down for a feedback session with an attending, and asked how I thought it went. I let fly with my impressions of the month, I literally didn’t hold back. I told them that I felt like I was literally set up to fail from day 1. That their interns were miserable, their seniors (at least the one I worked with the most) were toxic and all but impossible to learn from. That I felt like the month was a giant waste of my time and that I was just glad it was over, and that if I learned anything, it was that I needed to KNOW the culture of any future residency program I planned to rank. The attending tried to tell me I should have been more vocal about my concerns early on, that they would have liked to help, and I just laughed and told her: “You were freaking there on rounds when the senior resident wouldn’t allow me to present a patient without interrupting me over and over mid-sentence, through the entire presentation so she could try to “pimp” me. She didn’t even teach when she interrupted, then she’d act upset that my presentation didn’t flow well. You did nothing.
OP don’t stress it, which I know is easy advice to give and hard advice to follow. If this is your field, do your best, try not to show how jaded you are, and get out of there. But don’t let the politics of this particular program ruin you. Maybe all you’ll come away from this rotation with is a knowledge that you don’t want to train there; but that‘s actually valuable information.

But I agree, auditions/Sub-I’s are the worst.
Incredibly similar situation happened to me on an FM rotation of all things. The thing that got under my skin was that the two people who were so toxic (besides attendings just letting it happen knowingly after giving the speech about rejecting that behavior) were clearly super weak residents and it just exacerbated my anger with their behavior. I was wildly pissed off about someone being so rude that had a fourth year sub-i running circles around them in front of all of us. It was straight up pathetic. I'm thankful I'm doing a field with no auditions and only had this happen once during rotations. I take pride in treating everyone well I encounter but it lit a fire under my ass to actively mitigate it as an attending in the future.
 
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The dynamics of audition rotations, the differences between MD and DO 4th year - especially during a pandemic - are fascinating to me.
We lead very different lives despite the training being essentially the same on paper.
 
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Incredibly similar situation happened to me on an FM rotation of all things. The thing that got under my skin was that the two people who were so toxic (besides attendings just letting it happen knowingly after giving the speech about rejecting that behavior) were clearly super weak residents and it just exacerbated my anger with their behavior. I was wildly pissed off about someone being so rude that had a fourth year sub-i running circles around them in front of all of us. It was straight up pathetic. I'm thankful I'm doing a field with no auditions and only had this happen once during rotations. I take pride in treating everyone well I encounter but it lit a fire under my ass to actively mitigate it as an attending in the future.

The vast majority of toxic people in medicine are people with deficiencies and so they over compensate with people they perceive as less than them. I've seen it time and again. I've seen maybe a handful of toxic people that are genuinely good at what they do, but even they tend to soften at times or do it in a different way that's clear its about something else and not just putting someone else down. Most genuinely good/confident physicians don't feel the need to do that.

Auditions are rough, because you work like an intern with less experience and less familiarity with the system, which in and of itself is hard. That said, I never had an experience like that above. People were for the most part OK, save a couple, and even those people tended to still put in effort for teaching. I think I was just lucky, but I also didn't do many auditions.

My recommendation would be the same as my recommendation for interviews, unless you have a huge red flag, just be yourself, but your best self and least inflammatory self. If you have to completely change yourself to fit with a program or with the residents/attendings, that's a sign that that program simply isn't a good fit for you.

Unless you're doing a surgical subspecialty or doing aways for SLOEs, I honestly wouldn't do that many either. 2-3 to get some letters.

Also, keep remembering that you are on the brink of the best time in medical training, the second half of 4th year. You just have to get through these next few months of the cycle.
 
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The vast majority of toxic people in medicine are people with deficiencies and so they over compensate with people they perceive as less than them. I've seen it time and again. I've seen maybe a handful of toxic people that are genuinely good at what they do, but even they tend to soften at times or do it in a different way that's clear its about something else and not just putting someone else down. Most genuinely good/confident physicians don't feel the need to do that.

Auditions are rough, because you work like an intern with less experience and less familiarity with the system, which in and of itself is hard. That said, I never had an experience like that above. People were for the most part OK, save a couple, and even those people tended to still put in effort for teaching. I think I was just lucky, but I also didn't do many auditions.

My recommendation would be the same as my recommendation for interviews, unless you have a huge red flag, just be yourself, but your best self and least inflammatory self. If you have to completely change yourself to fit with a program or with the residents/attendings, that's a sign that that program simply isn't a good fit for you.

Unless you're doing a surgical subspecialty or doing aways for SLOEs, I honestly wouldn't do that many either. 2-3 to get some letters.

Also, keep remembering that you are on the brink of the best time in medical training, the second half of 4th year. You just have to get through these next few months of the cycle.
Small perk of COVID, since almost all auditions are cancelled the chill time is coming up a lot earlier. Sure I may have some BS rotations and a couple are even online still but that'll make interview stress a lot less.
 
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Small perk of COVID, since almost all auditions are cancelled the chill time is coming up a lot earlier. Sure I may have some BS rotations and a couple are even online still but that'll make interview stress a lot less.

The idea that almost all auditions are cancelled is not exactly true. Plenty of places are and having been taking auditioners and more and more places are opening up on VSAS. If you want an audition you can get one, but whether your school will let you is a different story
 
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The idea that almost all auditions are cancelled is not exactly true. Plenty of places are and having been taking auditioners and more and more places are opening up on VSAS. If you want an audition you can get one, but whether your school will let you is a different story
Yeah I was able to find some but it’s been a fiasco. I’m lucky my school is okay with most. Idk COVID is screwing up our entire app cycle
 
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The idea that almost all auditions are cancelled is not exactly true. Plenty of places are and having been taking auditioners and more and more places are opening up on VSAS. If you want an audition you can get one, but whether your school will let you is a different story

One of my friends has 3 aways lined up across the country. All trickled in about a month or two ago.

Covid's up, but uncertainty's down. They're opening up again.
 
I didn’t match at my auditions. I don’t regret them, cause I enjoyed them, and I was reaching for the stars a bit, and I did get interviews at all of them, but they were useless.

I have auditioning 4th years at my residency now, and honestly, I don’t know what to do with them. I try to release them early and they won’t go. I am really trying to pay it forward, especially as I am on wards and working crazy hours. Instead these students are kind of sabotaging me by making rounds longer asking extra questions and kind of distracting my seniors. Don’t do that kids.
 
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I didn’t match at my auditions. I don’t regret them, cause I enjoyed them, and I was reaching for the stars a bit, and I did get interviews at all of them, but they were useless.

I have auditioning 4th years at my residency now, and honestly, I don’t know what to do with them. I try to release them early and they won’t go. I am really trying to pay it forward, especially as I am on wards and working crazy hours. Instead these students are kind of sabotaging me by making rounds longer asking extra questions and kind of distracting my seniors. Don’t do that kids.

This is an interesting take. As a fourth year on audition now. The program I'm at is running really smoothly with fourth years and they know it too. I ask questions to the seniors and attendings but do so while we're walking rather than totally slowing down rounds.

I will say though-- in defense of 4th years on audition compared to your year of auditions... I think I speak for all of us when I say we're all a bit freaked out by the idea of virtual interviews. And students who are lucky enough to do an audition are mostly doing so to show their face to these programs because a 3 hour zoom call might not cut it.
 
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I didn’t match at my auditions. I don’t regret them, cause I enjoyed them, and I was reaching for the stars a bit, and I did get interviews at all of them, but they were useless.

I have auditioning 4th years at my residency now, and honestly, I don’t know what to do with them. I try to release them early and they won’t go. I am really trying to pay it forward, especially as I am on wards and working crazy hours. Instead these students are kind of sabotaging me by making rounds longer asking extra questions and kind of distracting my seniors. Don’t do that kids.

Offer them to do a few nights of NF and stay until 9AM to present to the attending on their one admit. They will both impress the program and mellow up after this exposure.

I think it’s a good idea.
 
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I didn’t match at my auditions. I don’t regret them, cause I enjoyed them, and I was reaching for the stars a bit, and I did get interviews at all of them, but they were useless.

I have auditioning 4th years at my residency now, and honestly, I don’t know what to do with them. I try to release them early and they won’t go. I am really trying to pay it forward, especially as I am on wards and working crazy hours. Instead these students are kind of sabotaging me by making rounds longer asking extra questions and kind of distracting my seniors. Don’t do that kids.
Rule XI. Show me a BMS (medical student), who only triples my work and I will kiss his feet.
The Fat Man

I applaud you wanting to pay it forward. Teaching takes time and does slow you down. I'm sure while you are in the meat grinder of PGY 1, remebering how concerned you were as a 4th yr. to match your top choices is a distant memory. A good option is to pick a topic, anything, clinical, academic, and assign it to students. Then you can discuss it the next day after you have had a chance to review the topics and add then can add some texture during the presentation.Stress to them that efficiency is very important. Send them to practice admissions together if things get slow or more importantly, you need to catch up. My son constantly complains how a couple junior residents are unable/unwilling to improve their effeciency and work stacks up. You are the teacher now and the students will remember and appreciate what your extra effort did for their education. Good luck and best wishes.
 
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I didn’t match at my auditions. I don’t regret them, cause I enjoyed them, and I was reaching for the stars a bit, and I did get interviews at all of them, but they were useless.

I have auditioning 4th years at my residency now, and honestly, I don’t know what to do with them. I try to release them early and they won’t go. I am really trying to pay it forward, especially as I am on wards and working crazy hours. Instead these students are kind of sabotaging me by making rounds longer asking extra questions and kind of distracting my seniors. Don’t do that kids.

A personal anecdote is that I still find it funny to think back to October when I did a 2 week medicine rotation at a program I was auditioning at, I enjoyed that and the residents in that program more than I enjoyed the rotation and the residents in the psych program the following month. It makes more sense now.

But honestly looking back I think auditions are important. We as DO students often are rotating at community programs which are potentially even low acuity. When we audition in our fields at bigger names with more acuity and more established teaching we may find that when we reach for the stars we find that they're really not all that we thought they were in truth.

Auditioning at a bigger name is good because it probably gets us more true experience in a field.

As far as auditioning students being loud. Tell them to calm down and if they can't then they're a DNR.
 
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As a resident, I will be super impressed if you can independently admit 2 pts per day, come up with a nice ddx, and write a H&P with a solid plan. Follow up on everything and put in the orders with help.

If you can regularly do 3-4 admits per day with all the followings, you're a stud.

That should be the goal for all medicine Sub-I students right now.

Lastly, I will also put you in the penalty box if you don't play nice with others, and act obnoxious and waste my time by flexing your UW or anatomy knowledge. This comes back as a reflection when I was stuck with an obnoxious person during my Sub-I days, in which the residents and attending physicians were too nice toward this one student. That person ended up in SOAP land, but his presence ruined the exp of all students there, and made lives harder for the involved residents.

I'm generally a nice person, who will max out all metrics on your evals. But if you tick me off, you will find your eval detailed, listing all of your deficiencies.
 
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As a resident, I will be super impressed if you can independently admit 2 pts per day, come up with a nice ddx, and write a H&P with a solid plan. Follow up on everything and put in the orders with help.

If you can regularly do 3-4 admits per day with all the followings, you're a stud.

That should be the goal for all medicine Sub-I students right now.

Lastly, I will also put you in the penalty box if you don't play nice with others, and act obnoxious and waste my time by flexing your UW or anatomy knowledge. This comes back as a reflection when I was stuck with an obnoxious person during my Sub-I days, in which the residents and attending physicians were too nice toward this one student. That person ended up in SOAP land, but his presence ruined the exp of all students there, and made lives harder for the involved residents.

I'm generally a nice person, who will max out all metrics on your evals. But if you tick me off, you will find your eval detailed, listing all of your deficiencies.
What's absolutely bonkers to me is that as medical student these expectations were pretty much never there. I essentially dicked around for all of 3rd year and parts of 4th year and now, surprise surprise, I find myself massively struggling as an intern in an admittedly very competitive environment. DO schools simply cannot compare with what top 20 MD schools are doing with their students.
 
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What's absolutely bonkers to me is that as medical student these expectations were pretty much never there. I essentially dicked around for all of 3rd year and parts of 4th year and now, surprise surprise, I find myself massively struggling as an intern in an admittedly very competitive environment. DO schools simply cannot compare with what top 20 MD schools are doing with their students.
Idk I mean those expectations have always been there for me and I’m a DO student. I don’t think I’m that far behind any MD student I’ve seen, if I’m behind at all
 
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What's absolutely bonkers to me is that as medical student these expectations were pretty much never there. I essentially dicked around for all of 3rd year and parts of 4th year and now, surprise surprise, I find myself massively struggling as an intern in an admittedly very competitive environment. DO schools simply cannot compare with what top 20 MD schools are doing with their students.

It's really easy to see which interns came from weaker 3rd and 4th year rotations in their intern year. They'll have training wheels on for a lot longer and potentially will flounder even beyond that.
 
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Idk I mean those expectations have always been there for me and I’m a DO student. I don’t think I’m that far behind any MD student I’ve seen, if I’m behind at all
Now that I’m a 4th year on rotations/teams with MD students and other DO students, there’s no difference at all. I forget which are which because we’re all basically at the same level +/- certain individual topics/strengths.
 
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Now that I’m a 4th year on rotations/teams with MD students and other DO students, there’s no difference at all. I forget which are which because we’re all basically at the same level +/- certain individual topics/strengths.

N=1, but the MD students I’ve been on rotations with have actually been more cuddled on their clinical rotations. They have more academic requirements while on rotation, but the ones I’ve seen aren’t any more clinically prepared
 
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Now that I’m a 4th year on rotations/teams with MD students and other DO students, there’s no difference at all. I forget which are which because we’re all basically at the same level +/- certain individual topics/strengths.

Personally the only big difference is we know MSK complaints a-lot better compared to MD students I've rotated w/.

It helped me stand out a lot in clinic for the basic shoulder pain stuff but thats about it.
 
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Idk I mean those expectations have always been there for me and I’m a DO student. I don’t think I’m that far behind any MD student I’ve seen, if I’m behind at all
Looks like I'm in the minority? I see what 3rd and 4th year MD students are doing at my site and they are essentially acting as interns from day 1. Seeing this was a huge surprise, I knew DO schools were behind, but I didn't know my training would be THAT bad vs MD. Anyways, this is a topic for a different day, didn't mean to vent here.
 
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N=1, but the MD students I’ve been on rotations with have actually been more cuddled on their clinical rotations. They have more academic requirements while on rotation, but the ones I’ve seen aren’t any more clinically prepared
Same for sure. Whining for academic half days and tons of didactic time and all kinds of stuff while I'm just out there getting work done and doing the school specific didactics on my own time after a real work day. Carrying less patients and doing less work like pending orders and whatever all while acting like they have to work so hard while their school babies them. I was literally loling at the situation until I realized some PD actually believes this garbage myth that MD students somehow do more as clerks as if we are a monolithic group.
 
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What's absolutely bonkers to me is that as medical student these expectations were pretty much never there. I essentially dicked around for all of 3rd year and parts of 4th year and now, surprise surprise, I find myself massively struggling as an intern in an admittedly very competitive environment. DO schools simply cannot compare with what top 20 MD schools are doing with their students.

I have never experienced this. I am a DO and felt equal with my MD peers in terms of preparation.
 
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Rule XI. Show me a BMS (medical student), who only triples my work and I will kiss his feet.
The Fat Man

I applaud you wanting to pay it forward. Teaching takes time and does slow you down. I'm sure while you are in the meat grinder of PGY 1, remebering how concerned you were as a 4th yr. to match your top choices is a distant memory. A good option is to pick a topic, anything, clinical, academic, and assign it to students. Then you can discuss it the next day after you have had a chance to review the topics and add then can add some texture during the presentation.Stress to them that efficiency is very important. Send them to practice admissions together if things get slow or more importantly, you need to catch up. My son constantly complains how a couple junior residents are unable/unwilling to improve their effeciency and work stacks up. You are the teacher now and the students will remember and appreciate what your extra effort did for their education. Good luck and best wishes.
Appreciate the advice, will do my best to integrate. I do not mean to imply above that most sub-is suck. Not at all, they are usually a big help, but sometimes I just want to do all the stuff, cause I need that kind of volume to get better. Anyone is welcome to steal a presentation from me at any time tho. My other interns try to push all the work they can on the subi’s so I try to have them follow his patients, and we can talk about the couple things I do know when they are interacting with me.

I will say, showing interest is very important. You have to be interested in the program all the time on auditions. Don’t let residents getaway with the ‘ah your too smart/talented/high scoring for this program.’It’s probably not true, and two it’s kind of test.
 
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Appreciate the advice, will do my best to integrate. I do not mean to imply above that most sub-is suck. Not at all, they are usually a big help, but sometimes I just want to do all the stuff, cause I need that kind of volume to get better. Anyone is welcome to steal a presentation from me at any time tho. My other interns try to push all the work they can on the subi’s so I try to have them follow his patients, and we can talk about the couple things I do know when they are interacting with me.

I will say, showing interest is very important. You have to be interested in the program all the time on auditions. Don’t let residents getaway with the ‘ah your too smart/talented/high scoring for this program.’It’s probably not true, and two it’s kind of test.
Anyone can steal a stupid patient presentation from me every single day during intern year next year because it is the thing I hate the most about IM with the fury of 1000 suns. I never thought something was so stupid in all of med school besides OMM than presenting to a new team the first week before they started treating you like an adult and letting you speak like a normal human. You just made me realize I get to give one or two away each day to the med students :)
 
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Anyone can steal a stupid patient presentation from me every single day during intern year next year because it is the thing I hate the most about IM with the fury of 1000 suns. You just made me realize I I get to give one or two away each day to the med students :)
I want to say ‘it gets better’ but the reality is that it mostly ends with intern year from what I see. Presentations just suck, especially in IM. Even better when your senior doesn’t have your back and plays stupid about a plan you explicitly discussed when the attending doesn’t like it. I have already decided that will not be me, cause it pisses me off to no end when the guys/girls above me do it. Apologizing after rounds for not sticking up for me when you knew we talked about the plan is BS.
 
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I want to say ‘it gets better’ but the reality is that it mostly ends with intern year from what I see. Presentations just suck, especially in IM. Even better when your senior doesn’t have your back and plays stupid about a plan you explicitly discussed when the attending doesn’t like it. I have already decided that will not be me, cause it pisses me off to no end when the guys/girls above me do it. Apologizing after rounds for not sticking up for me when you knew we talked about the plan is BS.
I have seen that so many times. It's a sign of a person of weak character and insecurity. I actually have a little book of notes I started third year of things I would do as a fourth year and then intern. Luckily I had a good third year so it's not a particularly long list. Hope intern year is going well for you. We miss you around these parts.
 
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I have seen that so many times. It's a sign of a person of weak character and insecurity. I actually have a little book of notes I started third year of things I would do as a fourth year and then intern. Luckily I had a good third year so it's not a particularly long list. Hope intern year is going well for you. We miss you around these parts.
Yep, took my debates from the boards straight to the wards, lol. I check in every now and then here tho.
 
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