blood draws

[caroladybelle]

You mean to tell me that you have never met a nurse who is completely apathetic about her job...and could therefore care less about what does and what does not get done? Come to Philadelphia. I can introduce you to a few.

Ahhh, Philadelphia, that explains a lot.

No insult to Fab, but the two spots that I worked in Philly left a bit to be desired. One, an Ivy League, had staff that ate all newbies. While I was on assignment, several nurse orientees quit because of dealing with the regular staff.

I changed to an inner city facility. And on nights, we routinely covered 10-12 patients, rarely had a tech, and little to no respiratory support, and no phlebotomy on nights. The patients also were more than a bit dangerous. The nursing staff was awesome but obviously overloaded - many of the patients were paras/quads (stabbings, gunshot wounds) , sicklers, serious drug users, psych cases.

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[Tired]

mine aren't more valid...I'm over 40 and have been doing this 13 years...You guys are residents, and are probably under 30, and, as you said, have "limited" experience...
Fab4, carol, and I are far more qualified to paint an accurate picture of nursing...That's all I was saying...

I would argue our experience is more valid than yours. Unlike us, you work along side other nurses. You have minimal chance to observe their work ethic, and you are rarely (if ever) in a position to need them to do things for your patients. I, on the other hand, write hundreds of orders every day that need to be carried out by nursing, and therefore I have to follow up to see if they were done.

In a similar vein, I have no idea if my fellow interns are any good or not. I'm sure some of them are idiots, just from talking to them. But their ability as clinicians or bedside manner? I have no idea, while I'm sure you have a very good idea who is quality and who isn't.

I think you misunderstand my argument: I'm not painting all nurses are bad. I'm saying that a lot of the nurses I work with are bad. There's a difference. I also argue that the culture of nursing is such that mistakes are not openly aired and corrected, and that any constructive criticism is taken as a personal attack. I stand by that argument. But all nurses are bad? Of course not.

Like everyone in my position, I live and die for my good nurses, and detest the bad ones. If I want to talk about the bad ones here, I will do so. If that offends you, so be it. I don't mind the nurses here badmouthing me, so why would the internet be any different?

 

[chimichanga]

I would argue our experience is more valid than yours. Unlike us, you work along side other nurses. You have minimal chance to observe their work ethic, and you are rarely (if ever) in a position to need them to do things for your patients. I, on the other hand, write hundreds of orders every day that need to be carried out by nursing, and therefore I have to follow up to see if they were done...

Good post...

I am a nursing/house sup, and a nursing educator, and have done that off/on the last 8 years, at many hospitals, so observing (nursing, doc, etc) work ethic is something I do daily, and feel that I can comment on objectively...

I guess we just write more about the bad insert whomever here than the good...

 

[snoopy brown]

You guys are residents, and are probably under 30

I guess we can't talk until we hit 40 and then we become the ultimate authority.

 

[Dr JPH]

(paraphrased)

Over whom?

It's a different responsibility than every other member of the team...No one is more important than the other...That's what you (seem to - based on your posts) fail to realize...

Certainly you incur way more liability, and we respect that...

I humbly disagree.

 

[snoopy brown]

I agree with the disagreement.

 

[chimichanga]

I guess we can't talk until we hit 40 and then we become the ultimate authority.

not at all...I'm just asking you to continually form your opinions, and 15 years from now, hopefully your experiences with nursing are mostly positive...

 

[chimichanga]

I humbly disagree.

Humility is, yet, a trait out of your reach...There's still hope...

Could I do what you do? Hell no, not without the training...That goes both ways... (save the "yea I could" insert lazy/incompetent nurse trait perceived by JP here)

 

[BlackSails]

Humility is, yet, a trait out of your reach...There's still hope...

Could I do what you do? Hell no, not without the training...That goes both ways... (save the "yea I could" insert lazy/incompetent nurse trait perceived by JP here)

Would you rather be treated by a team with no nurses, or a team with no doctors?

 

[Tired]

I am a nursing/house sup, and a nursing educator, and have done that off/on the last 8 years, at many hospitals, so observing (nursing, doc, etc) work ethic is something I do daily, and feel that I can comment on objectively...

And yet I would still argue that you don't see what a lot of RNs actually do on a day-to-day basis. I think that if you did (actually, if all the good RNs actually saw what the bad ones do), you wouldn't be so quick to back them up in every conflict with a doc, tech, patient, family, etc. The previous post about circling the wagons was dead on the money; all nurses are right in the eyes of other nurses until videotaped evidence of drug abuse is produced. But if there were any way for you to experience the day-to-day delays, ignored orders, tests not completed, and general lack of assistance that a select few put us through, you wouldn't offer them that undying support.

 

[MossPoh]

This is a pretty intense debate coming from a fairly simple question. I propose hugs.

 

[chimichanga]

And yet I would still argue that you don't see what a lot of RNs actually do on a day-to-day basis. I think that if you did (actually, if all the good RNs actually saw what the bad ones do), you wouldn't be so quick to back them up in every conflict with a doc, tech, patient, family, etc. The previous post about circling the wagons was dead on the money; all nurses are right in the eyes of other nurses until videotaped evidence of drug abuse is produced. But if there were any way for you to experience the day-to-day delays, ignored orders, tests not completed, and general lack of assistance that a select few put us through, you wouldn't offer them that undying support.

Your experience w/ house sups may be are that they sit in the office, or lord knows what...
I did a conscious sedation Monday, as the ER nurse wasn't comfortable doing it...I push up your tele admits nightly, to help the ER out...I start IVs on the hard sticks (never in 13 years have I asked an intern or resident to do this-unthinkable)
I disciplined a nurse yesterday for not doing a dressing change "beacuse it didn't needed to be done" I reminded her that it wasn't her call...
I sit w/ my nurses every shift, discuss any issues...I review treatment logs, MARs, etc, to make sure nothing is missed...I sit with the hospitalist, and the other docs, to make sure nursing is doing what they should be doing (we have a 50 bed hospital...I have the time)

I'm not sure why you think we all conspire to write you up, make your life miserable, and dutifully and collectively refuse your orders...

I've never paged a doc just because he's a dick...

Last thing...You mentioned "we" will back up our comrades to family...

3 years ago, I was a house sup in a SNF...My best friend gave the right dose of high dose morphine to the wrong patient...We sent the pt to the ER...I sat said pt's wife down and admitted our mistake...Yes, OUR...We stick together when we screw up (which is more often than I'd like)

I offer an undying support for the profession, as I believe it to be a noble, admirable one...

 

[chimichanga]

...And on nights, we routinely covered 10-12 patients, rarely had a tech, and little to no respiratory support, and no phlebotomy on nights. The patients also were more than a bit dangerous. The nursing staff was awesome but obviously overloaded - many of the patients were paras/quads (stabbings, gunshot wounds) , sicklers, serious drug users, psych cases.

Yet the 1-2% of the lazies is all they remember...

What she describes is all to common...

My only beef, is that the (over ratio) situation she describes is tolerated by nurses daily...

Together (nationwide) nurses are weak and disorganized...

 

[snoopy brown]

I'm not sure why you think we all conspire to write you up, make your life miserable, and dutifully and collectively refuse your orders...

I think what you're not understanding is that relatively few nurses need to do that in order to harrass a resident. Residents deal with lots of patients, some services in the hospital can be up to 70 patients (although that large is not the norm but it is possible) and overnight with one resident covering multiple services. Half the time I'm forgiving and think that nurses can't possibly imagine how many patients we're dealing with. Especially since sometimes some nurses see my patient list and faint. One nurse saw my list once and said she'd never page me again (she did, same night but it was OK). But the other half of the time I think it's just them being extremely inconsiderate at best. What else am I to think? I'm talking to you and my pager is going off six or seven times in a few minutes and I have to keep pressing the button to quiet it and the nurses "don't realize" how busy I am? I don't buy it.

 

[Dr JPH]

Could I do what you do? Hell no, not without the training...That goes both ways...

Really?

Im fairly certain I could figure out how to pass out meds, page doctors for nonsense reasons, question the interns orders (eventhough you dont understand the physiology behind the patients disease state) AND fit time in my day to take a lunchbreak.

 

[chimichanga]

Really?

Im fairly certain I could figure out how to pass out meds, page doctors for nonsense reasons, question the interns orders (eventhough you dont understand the physiology behind the patients disease state) AND fit time in my day to take a lunchbreak.

took you long enough to take that bait...

and I'm pretty sure I could remove iodoform packing without warning the pt, yell and berate nurses, and act as if my excrement doesn't stink, on a daily basis, and still find time to eat a rep's lunch...

 

[snoopy brown]

You might not like to hear this but I doubt you could credibly dispute that it would be much easier for a physician to do a nurse's job than vice versa. And if you think that's an insult or nurse-bashing don't blame me because you said you were laying out the bait. If you read the forums you will see that when nurses can't/don't do something then the physician must do it and people defend this practice (not me, other people). I've seen physicians do just about every part of nursing care at one time or another, not necessarily frequently but at least once.

 

[fab4fan]

chimi: Just a suggestion. Don't waste your time engaging in further debate with these two. The doctors who appreciate you know that they couldn't do their jobs without you. People like the above posters don't get it and just aren't worth the energy it takes to argue.

I've had the pleasure of some really great interaction with some members here like Kimberly Cox, who gave me some good feedback over a clinical situation that happened some time ago. I'd look to the more mature (by that I don't necessarirly mean "old") members here if you want meaningful debate.

Since when did you become "pre-med" BTW? I missed that!

 

[deleted87716]

Agreed. I think we've beaten this horse long enough. Closing.