Blade Opines on Money and Anesthesia

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The much more important reason to own gold is for the long term. This is the new buy and hold asset class.
As countries around the world debase their currencies, Gold is slowly shifting its role which will be to be the new new world currency. So, one absolutely wants to buy Gold and hold it. Ignore all the short term fluctuations.
The sell point for Gold will be when Central banks reverse course and start to strengthen their currencies. So far that day looks to be years away.

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Honestly, do you think that in 30 years a thousand dollars worth of a solid stock like IBM or PG with reinvested dividends will be worth more, or will a thousand dollars worth of gold be worth more? There's no compounding gain of 0.6oz gold sitting on the shelf.
I'm not saying gold isn't a good haven or that it is a bad idea now, it certainly has done well for several years until recently, but long-term?
Sure gold goes up with inflation/devalued currencies, but so does the price of diapers and soap.

If things are bad enough to make gold go up faster than blue chips in the long-term, then we'd be better off buying farmland and guns cause things are gonna get ugly.
 
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World Currencies are being debased. The Euro is about to get trashed by the ECB because massive monetary stimulus/printing is needed to save the Euro Union. The U.S. may be facing QE3 by the FED. What currency do you think is more likely to hold its true value over the next 5 years? While the housing bust may mean inflation is low the US Dollar is being debased at the same time. Gold is the hedge against unlimited Fiat Currency.

What is Gold really worth? I have no idea but an ounce of Gold will buy me more than $1500 in 5 years and that is what matters to holders of gold.
 
Honestly, do you think that in 30 years a thousand dollars worth of a solid stock like IBM or PG with reinvested dividends will be worth more, or a thousand dollars worth of gold? There's no compounding gain of 0.6oz gold sitting on the shelf.
I'm not saying gold isn't a good haven or that it is a bad idea now, it certainly has done well for several years, but long term?
Sure gold goes up with inflation/devalued currencies, but so does the price of diapers and soap.

I think in 5 years Gold may go up in value more than some publicly traded companies but less than others. I also think an ounce of Gold will be worth much more than $1500.

Meanwhile I get to hold real gold bullion that some CEO can't run away with or squander on himself or a bad deal.
 
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Sorry I kept editing my post while you worte


Owning Gold as part of a diversified portfolio makes sense. You now have opportunity to buy Gold soon at under $1500 an ounce. I will be a buyer of Gold again at that price and all over Platinum at $1450 or less (could be this week).

Use common sense. Look at the long term value of US paper currency vs US Gold Coins or GLD as ask yourself which is a better way to hold cash. That's right CASH. MY Gold Coins are US currency just like your paper money but the US mint simply can't print all the Gold coin the Fed tells them to.
 
Warren Buffett has a political agenda and isn't being totally honest. He supports Obama and the Fed's monetary policy. Do you really think as a supporter of Obama Buffet is going to tell you to buy Gold?

My long term hope is that Romney can save this country from financial ruin; that he can re-establish the U.S. currency as a real alternative to gold.

But, "hope" isn't an investment strategy so I'll be a buyer of Gold until I see proof that the U.S. once again DESERVES to be the reserve currency.
 
Looks like it's Acropolis Now. Again, the only thing up are....drum roll.... Treasuries.


Doze,

Now is the time to get your shopping list read or in your case buy those ETF/Index funds. I am a buyer of equities 10-15% lower from here and I expect to get those orders filled in the next 5-10 trading days.

Great companies are going on sale, if not now, then soon. The time to buy is during high market volatility. We are entering that phase.

I know it may get uglier next month but I expect some serious price swings by the end of this month.
 
Not too far from a rebalancing band in commodities. I use IGE. Won't pull the trigger till I hit the threshhold. I use the 5/25 rule. However I am always looking to tax loss harvest and flip the position for an identical play in the same asset class. Zeus has thrown a thunderbolt at the talks on Greece.

http://www.economicvoice.com/hollan...-conference-goes-ahead/50029688#axzz1uzOQLamn

BTW in the tug of war between hyperinflation and deflationary collapse... The markets today are saying deflation with Everything including Gold tanking and Treasuries and high quality fixed income rallying. Especially on the long end of the yield curve.
 
Not too far from a rebalancing band in commodities. I use IGE. Won't pull the trigger till I hit the threshhold. I use the 5/25 rule. However I am always looking to tax loss harvest and flip the position for an identical play in the same asset class. Zeus has thrown a thunderbolt at the talks on Greece.

http://www.economicvoice.com/hollan...-conference-goes-ahead/50029688#axzz1uzOQLamn

BTW in the tug of war between hyperinflation and deflationary collapse... The markets today are saying deflation with Everything including Gold tanking and Treasuries and high quality fixed income rallying. Especially on the long end of the yield curve.

Yes, the market is over reacting as usual. The rally in treasuries will be temporary. Have you actually researched the cost to mine a new ounce of Gold? How about platinum? Both are going down because of fear that European banks may need to liquidate large amounts of precious metas.

You are quite savy to sell one ETF and buy another in the same asset class.
 
I like HAP and still have a profit from my 2009 purchase. I recommend this ETF when it drops another 15 percent which I expect this month.
 
I like HAP and still have a profit from my 2009 purchase. I recommend this ETF when it drops another 15 percent which I expect this month.

Itis highly correlated to IGE. Let's say you buy $10,000 of HAP for your taxable account.
It drops 20%. You sell HAP. Immediately buy IGE. You have booked a $2,000 tax loss while maintaining your asset allocation. Ideally you will be buying more than $8,000 of HAP since you should be underweight this equity asset class (selling high quality bonds which hopefully have been going up while stocks going down).
 
Hi

This topic help me a lot in developing my project. I will contribute more when I finished it.
 
The time where investors are no longer willing to accept negative yields on U.S. Treasurys is near, warned Bill Gross, manager of Pimco, the world’s largest bond fund.





gross_bill_studio_200.jpg
Scott Eells | Bloomberg | Getty Images​






“With the U.S. suffering a credit downgrade to AA+ and offering negative 200 basis point policy rates for the privilege of investing in Treasury bills, the willingness of creditors — as opposed to debtors — to support the existing system may soon fade,” Gross wrote in a Financial Times editorial published on Tuesday.

“With dollar reserves widely dispersed in China, Japan, Brazil, and other surplus nations, it is fair to assume that there will come a point where 2 percent negative real interest rates fail to compensate for the advantages heretofore gained in buying sovereign bonds," he added.

Gross recently cut his exposure to Treasurys, reflecting his negative outlook for U.S. government debt. His $252 billion Total Return Fund held 32 percent in U.S. Treasurys and Treasury-related securities as of the end of March 31, down from 37 percent as the end of February, according to Pimco’s website.

In his investment outlook for May, Gross warned that inflation span#ExplainsLink a, span#ExplainsLink a img, span#ExplainsLink a:visited img, span#ExplainsLink a:visited {border:none;} in the U.S., which currently stands at 2.7 percent, is set to climb and further erode returns on government debt.

“Higher rates of inflation should be the result of (quantitative easing) span#ExplainsLink a, span#ExplainsLink a img, span#ExplainsLink a:visited img, span#ExplainsLink a:visited {border:none;} policies and zero bound yields that will likely continue for years to come,” he said in the note issued earlier this month. “Investors (are) being skunked and having their pockets picked simply by receiving yields less than inflation.”



RELATED LINKS



Gross is not alone in his warnings regarding U.S. Treasurys. Famed investors including Wilbur Ross, Peter Schiff, and Jim Rogers have also voiced their concerns around investing in U.S. government bonds in the recent months.

In March, Wilbur Ross, chairman and founder of WL Ross & Co., told CNBC that long-term government debt posed a great threat to portfolios, cautioning that higher inflation could hammer the value of fixed-income government securities.

Peter Schiff, CEO of Euro Pacific Capital, said earlier this month that the U.S. bond market and dollar were headed for a collapse due to the inability of the Federal Reserve span#ExplainsLink a, span#ExplainsLink a img, span#ExplainsLink a:visited img, span#ExplainsLink a:visited {border:none;} to service the nation’s debt with “artificially low” interest rates.

Despite those dire predictions, U.S. bond prices, which move in the opposite direction to yields, have rallied in recent months on renewed concerns over the euro zone debt crisis, a weaker economic recovery in the U.S., and worries about China’s growth outlook.

Gross, who was similarly negative on Treasurys last year, found himself on the wrong side of the trade. In 2011, he cut his exposure to U.S. government bonds, betting that prices would fall after the Fed’s second round of quantitative easing came to an end. Slower-than-expected growth in the U.S. over 2011, however, led investors to rush into the safety of government debt, forcing Gross to admit in August that it was a mistake to bet so heavily against Treasurys.

To guard investments from rising inflation, Gross recommended investors shift their focus to short-term bonds and dividend-paying stocks.

“Focus on bonds with maturities in the five-year range and stocks paying dividends that offer 3 percent to 4 percent yields,” he said in his note in May. “In addition, real assets or commodities should occupy an increasing percentage of portfolios,”
 
The time where investors are no longer willing to accept negative yields on U.S. Treasurys is near, warned Bill Gross, manager of Pimco, the world’s largest bond fund.





gross_bill_studio_200.jpg
Scott Eells | Bloomberg | Getty Images​






“With the U.S. suffering a credit downgrade to AA+ and offering negative 200 basis point policy rates for the privilege of investing in Treasury bills, the willingness of creditors — as opposed to debtors — to support the existing system may soon fade,” Gross wrote in a Financial Times editorial published on Tuesday.

“With dollar reserves widely dispersed in China, Japan, Brazil, and other surplus nations, it is fair to assume that there will come a point where 2 percent negative real interest rates fail to compensate for the advantages heretofore gained in buying sovereign bonds," he added.

Gross recently cut his exposure to Treasurys, reflecting his negative outlook for U.S. government debt. His $252 billion Total Return Fund held 32 percent in U.S. Treasurys and Treasury-related securities as of the end of March 31, down from 37 percent as the end of February, according to Pimco’s website.

In his investment outlook for May, Gross warned that inflation span#ExplainsLink a, span#ExplainsLink a img, span#ExplainsLink a:visited img, span#ExplainsLink a:visited {border:none;} in the U.S., which currently stands at 2.7 percent, is set to climb and further erode returns on government debt.

“Higher rates of inflation should be the result of (quantitative easing) span#ExplainsLink a, span#ExplainsLink a img, span#ExplainsLink a:visited img, span#ExplainsLink a:visited {border:none;} policies and zero bound yields that will likely continue for years to come,” he said in the note issued earlier this month. “Investors (are) being skunked and having their pockets picked simply by receiving yields less than inflation.”



RELATED LINKS



Gross is not alone in his warnings regarding U.S. Treasurys. Famed investors including Wilbur Ross, Peter Schiff, and Jim Rogers have also voiced their concerns around investing in U.S. government bonds in the recent months.

In March, Wilbur Ross, chairman and founder of WL Ross & Co., told CNBC that long-term government debt posed a great threat to portfolios, cautioning that higher inflation could hammer the value of fixed-income government securities.

Peter Schiff, CEO of Euro Pacific Capital, said earlier this month that the U.S. bond market and dollar were headed for a collapse due to the inability of the Federal Reserve span#ExplainsLink a, span#ExplainsLink a img, span#ExplainsLink a:visited img, span#ExplainsLink a:visited {border:none;} to service the nation’s debt with “artificially low” interest rates.

Despite those dire predictions, U.S. bond prices, which move in the opposite direction to yields, have rallied in recent months on renewed concerns over the euro zone debt crisis, a weaker economic recovery in the U.S., and worries about China’s growth outlook.

Gross, who was similarly negative on Treasurys last year, found himself on the wrong side of the trade. In 2011, he cut his exposure to U.S. government bonds, betting that prices would fall after the Fed’s second round of quantitative easing came to an end. Slower-than-expected growth in the U.S. over 2011, however, led investors to rush into the safety of government debt, forcing Gross to admit in August that it was a mistake to bet so heavily against Treasurys.

To guard investments from rising inflation, Gross recommended investors shift their focus to short-term bonds and dividend-paying stocks.

“Focus on bonds with maturities in the five-year range and stocks paying dividends that offer 3 percent to 4 percent yields,” he said in his note in May. “In addition, real assets or commodities should occupy an increasing percentage of portfolios,”

-There is a difference between real assets and collaterallized commodities futures and equity in commodities companies.
-I continue to hold plenty of treasuries (short term) even though I know that this portion of my portfolio will produce a negative after tax real return. I do so for the diversification benefit and dampening of volatility and to provide a store of value when equities sell off.
-I hold some intermediate to long dated TIPS- used to hold a lot more. Sold them off when I though that nominals were a better choice. Wish that I head held on to them.
-Also hold plenty of REITs for inflation protection. (10% of my equities)
-Schiff has been singing the same song for a long time. Those who followed his investment regulations have not done well.
 
-There is a difference between real assets and collaterallized commodities futures and equity in commodities companies.
-I continue to hold plenty of treasuries (short term) even though I know that this portion of my portfolio will produce a negative after tax real return. I do so for the diversification benefit and dampening of volatility and to provide a store of value when equities sell off.
-I hold some intermediate to long dated TIPS- used to hold a lot more. Sold them off when I though that nominals were a better choice. Wish that I head held on to them.
-Also hold plenty of REITs for inflation protection. (10% of my equities)
-Schiff has been singing the same song for a long time. Those who followed his investment regulations have not done well.

You hod treasuries and I hold lots of cash. I've been building a large cash position in anticipation of a major market pullback. We could see Dow 11,000 or less before this is over. I'm a buyer (slowly) as the market tanks under 12,000. I also expect 1280 on the S and P 500.

Buy low sell high. This means now is the time to get ready to deploy cash or bonds and buy equities for the long run. Exact timing is hard but buying 10-15 percent lower from here is an excellent entry point to deploy cash. I'll be cost averaging into equities in the next few days.

As for commodities I hold a 10 percent stake in gold/metals/miners which I will increase to 15 percent. I'll be adding platinum around 1350/1300 and Gold under 1500. I'll also be buying mining stocks and the ETFs.

I like several individual names in steel,coal and energy which are selling for less than half of morningstar's fair value right now. I expect these names could fall another 15-20 percent making them a fantastic long term buy.
 
You hod treasuries and I hold lots of cash. I've been building a large cash position in anticipation of a major market pullback. We could see Dow 11,000 or less before this is over. I'm a buyer (slowly) as the market tanks under 12,000. I also expect 1280 on the S and P 500.

Buy low sell high. This means now is the time to get ready to deploy cash or bonds and buy equities for the long run. Exact timing is hard but buying 10-15 percent lower from here is an excellent entry point to deploy cash. I'll be cost averaging into equities in the next few days.

As for commodities I hold a 10 percent stake in gold/metals/miners which I will increase to 15 percent. I'll be adding platinum around 1350/1300 and Gold under 1500. I'll also be buying mining stocks and the ETFs.

I like several individual names in steel,coal and energy which are selling for less than half of morningstar's fair value right now. I expect these names could fall another 15-20 percent making them a fantastic long term buy.


Gold has gone down from before last summer's increase. I looked at the us mint and saw the american eagles were sold out. Do you have any place you buy 1 oz coins?
 
Gold has gone down from before last summer's increase. I looked at the us mint and saw the american eagles were sold out. Do you have any place you buy 1 oz coins?

apmex.com is reputable although their markup above spot has really gone up a lot in the last couple years
 
Also consider local coin dealers, pawn shops, jewelers ... you can often buy/sell very close to spot. You do need to be careful to ensure you're getting what you think you're getting though.

I was in a local jewelry store a couple months ago getting a watch band resized, and someone came in to trade their gold for cash. Turned out the guy's jewelry was plated and the shop didn't want it. But I asked the owner if he bought bars and coins, and he said he'd buy for 3% under spot and sell for 3% over. (Jewelry was a much worse deal, since he had the added cost of selling that to a refinery.) If you're not picky about whether you get American Eagles or Maple Leafs or Credit Suisse bars, and you're not looking to buy large quantities, this is worth looking into.
 
The intrinsic value of gold will never change. It's has a little bit of industrial use, but it's primarily decorative. Gold can change in relation to a currency with inflation/deflation, but long term that is the only change it will ever make.

The intrinsic value of good corporations will always be a better long term bet than gold, unless the country those corporations are in completely tanks.


(and 12 years isn't a very long time line, 30-50 is much better)

Nobody ever got rich long term by purchasing gold. What they have done successfully was try to protect some of their cash assets against high inflation in their native currency. But if you want to increase your purchasing power in the future, equities are a much safer bet.
 
The intrinsic value of gold will never change. It's has a little bit of industrial use, but it's primarily decorative. Gold can change in relation to a currency with inflation/deflation, but long term that is the only change it will ever make.

The intrinsic value of good corporations will always be a better long term bet than gold, unless the country those corporations are in completely tanks.


(and 12 years isn't a very long time line, 30-50 is much better)

Nobody ever got rich long term by purchasing gold. What they have done successfully was try to protect some of their cash assets against high inflation in their native currency. But if you want to increase your purchasing power in the future, equities are a much safer bet.

Gold goes up with inflation and fear.

The potential advantage of gold is as an inflation-adjusted tax-exempt bond equivalent. Unfortunately you can't claim a loss from inflation against cash holdings, and you are supposed to pay capital gains even if you just avoid deflation by holding gold. Luckily, you can sell gold for cash and protect your wealth without paying taxes, and gold will adjust to real inflation, not just what the government says inflation is like TIPS.

Whether the S&P beats gold or not depends on market performance, inflation, and capital gains tax rates. It's probably not a good idea to put a large percentage of your savings in gold long term, but it's a great idea to hold gold if you think the market is going to tank.

I doubt my ability to predict a market drop, so I don't personally own gold yet.
 
Gold goes up with inflation and fear.

The potential advantage of gold is as an inflation-adjusted tax-exempt bond equivalent. Unfortunately you can't claim a loss from inflation against cash holdings, and you are supposed to pay capital gains even if you just avoid deflation by holding gold. Luckily, you can sell gold for cash and protect your wealth without paying taxes, and gold will adjust to real inflation, not just what the government says inflation is like TIPS.

Whether the S&P beats gold or not depends on market performance, inflation, and capital gains tax rates. It's probably not a good idea to put a large percentage of your savings in gold long term, but it's a great idea to hold gold if you think the market is going to tank.

I doubt my ability to predict a market drop, so I don't personally own gold yet.


Correct. Gold isn't an investment. Investments expect to provide real returns (even against inflation) over time. Gold is a hedge.
 
Market Myth:
The stock market is where you have to place your money.

MarketReality:
I've read and heard numerous times about 80-95% of people lose their money in the stock market. I just did a quick search and can't find a good source. Maybe someone else can.

Market Myth:
The "Pros" are making all the money.

Market Reality:
No, the pros suck just as bad as you do. That has been studied and verified numerous times in history

The long term market gains are typically overblown, measuring from a low somewhere in the past to a very high price in the recent years. Measured from peak to peaks the long term gain is in the area of 4.5-5%. Then you have to subtract out inflation. That doesn't leave you with a huge real year gain.

Next you have to subtract out the huge amount of money sucked out of the pot by insiders as well as option bonuses before you can get to the remainder to be divvied up by everybody else. Then subtract out both the market spreads as well as commissions. Lastly, if you are lucky enough to be in the black, don't forget to let taxes take a whack at it.

Making real-real money (and I mean real as in significant, as well as real as in inflation adjusted) is incredibly more difficult than your doctor lounge buddy makes it out to be. Even with a recent correction, stocks are still in the higher end of a 100 year trading range (ie, not at bargain giveaway prices) and economic and world events pretty much suck.

Having fun playing at it. I do. But don't believe all of the hype.

I think rental property provides a good balance between retirement income, tangible assets, favorable tax treatment, and inflation protection. Most people I know who had rental property didn't much care for the experience though, so who knows?
 
I think rental property provides a good balance between retirement income, tangible assets, favorable tax treatment, and inflation protection. Most people I know who had rental property didn't much care for the experience though, so who knows?


I rent out a place, I charge a monthly rent of 1% of the purchase price of the place. I have really good tenants. I figure after taxes and repairs to the place, I come out about 5%/year profit.

I think for the aggravation, I wouldn't recommend rental property, it is kind of a crapshoot, but I wanted to try one out and see what it is all about. But then again, I have something that has been making me 5%/year for the past 10 years which easily beats out the stock market and I actually own the place now.
 
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