- Joined
- Jul 13, 2003
- Messages
- 323
- Reaction score
- 1
As someone who plans to apply this season which are the bad dermatology programs I should stay away from or not apply. Thanks.
you must huff a lot of glue. no sane person would post anything specific to this thread.
I would, but I don't know of any that are so bad that you should not apply. Getting into derm is so tough that for at least 2/3 of the applicant pool, if you had guaranteed acceptance to the consensus worst program (whatever that is), you should take it rather than taking your chances with the match.
If someone made that offer to me when I was applying, I would have been too stupid to take it. But now I know that if such an offer were made, I should take it in a heartbeat.
go ahead then, reno. what are some bad derm programs? just in case your and my threshold for applying differs.
Perhaps if we rephrase this and ask instead: which programs did you dislike on the interview trail, and why?
Perhaps you didn't understand my post. There are no programs so weak that you shouldn't apply. Hence there are no "bad derm programs" in that sense, which is what OP was asking.
If you want to know what programs I think are weak, it's difficult for me to give a long list since I've been out of academia for a while. But as an example, one program I know to be weak is Wright State. But it's still good enough that if you go there you can learn enough to be a decent dermatologist.
If I think of some more, I'll list them, but my information is slightly dated.
No, I understood it. The OP asked specifically which derm programs were bad, to which i replied it would be uncouth and pointless to name said programs, to which you replied that you would reveal these programs, but in your judgement, none is bad enough (except wright state) to out in this forum.
Lot's of folks say the derm community is very small, and that everybody talks. I just wonder what might be gained from talking negatively about programs under the guise of anonymity. I think if the OP really wants to know the "bad programs," perhaps she should read some of the older posts on this site, find whom she identifies with, and then ask them this question in a PM.
You really didn't understand it at all. You're just making up stuff now. Since I've got some time, let me break this down for you.
1. OP clearly asked which programs are "bad dermatology programs I should stay away from or not apply".
2. Then you said "you must huff a lot of glue. no sane person would post anything specific to this thread. ". Now you're saying that from that sentence the reader is supposed to interpret what you really meant as "it would be uncouth and pointless to name said programs," Maybe that's what you meant, but I can't read your mind.
3. Then I said there are no programs that are not bad enough not to apply to. I did not say what you think which was: "to which you replied that you would reveal these programs, but in your judgement, none is bad enough (except wright state) to out in this forum".
The reason I didn't mention any is because I didn't think there were any that met the criteria specified by the OP. It's has nothing to do with "outing them in this forum". I don't know where you got that from. This type of forum is exactly the type of place this stuff should be discussed.
Furthermore, I explicitly stated that Wright State was NOT bad enough to not apply to, instead of what you interpreted which was "none is bad enough (except wright state)".
4. Then, just to make sure you weren't confused, I went ahead and named a program I thought was weak to be sure that you understood that my problem was not naming a program, but rather that there were no programs that met the OP's criteria. Clearly, my effort was wasted.
Hope that was simple enough for you.
4.) So, just to be clear, your perception is that there are no programs that meet the OPs criteria, and you believe that this type of forum is exactly the type of place for the OPs original question (which I refute), and when pressed you say that Wright state is weak, but still passable, and you did this to alleviate my confusion? Now, I am confused.
Sorry about the jab at the end. Probably uncalled for.
Anyway, I think you get where I'm coming from now. I just want to clear up #4 for you. When I didn't name anyone originally I didn't want you to think that the reason why was because I was afraid or because it was improper in any way. The reason why is because no programs met the criteria set forth by the OP.
To make it absolutely clear that I didn't have a problem "naming names", I gave the name of a program that I thought was weak so you could be sure that I wasn't hiding behind some sort of excuse.
Now here's some more misrepresentations you've made of what I said that I want to clear up:
1. The first thing that I want to clear up is that I never said that there was "no point" (as you said I said in your last post) in discussing this stuff. This sort of stuff is very important when you're making your rank list. However, these considerations have no place when deciding where to apply. That is what the OP asked.
2. Yet another thing I want to clear up is that getting into derm is not impossibly hard. I never meant to suggest otherwise. I firmly believe that anyone who wants it should try.
The reason why I would take a guaranteed spot in the worst program vs taking my chances in the match is not because derm is "impossibly hard to get". It is because of the following:
-The difference in the quality of training between the best program and the worst program is not that great. By and large derm residency is what you make of it. If you're smart and you apply yourself, you will become a good dermatologist no matter how bad your residency program is. Conversely, if you're stupid and lazy, then even being in the best program will not help you. Because of this, taking the guarantee is the smart choice.
-If you're set on doing derm and you are going to keep trying until you get it, the harm you do to yourself by not matching is so much greater than the benefit you would gain by potentially matching at a better program. If you just consider it from an income standpoint, you're costing yourself at least $200K (this is a conservative estimate and when you consider how much that will turn into if you invested it, it is even more), if your career is delayed by only one year. There no way that a chance at matching at a better program is worth that much. And that's not the only cost of not matching. There is stress, disruption to your life, etc.
This time, no snide remark to conclude.
can you elaborate on why this info is important for ranking and not applying? I mean, why apply at all to a "bad" program?
In reading some of these responses, it seems that I'm taking some knowledge for granted. This is something that seems super obvious to me now, but I didn't do it when I was applying for derm, so I guess others at that point in their lives may not realize it.
This should be obvious, but nevertheless here's the reno911 algorithm for applying for derm to maximize your success rate to the fullest extent.
1. Apply to every program. I don't care if it's non ERAS or in Canada or whatever. If it will lead to ABD certification, you should apply to it.
2. Go to every interview you possibly can. Conflicting dates is the only excuse to miss one. Cost should not be an issue. Max out your credit cards, borrow from family, stay in cheap hotels, and do whatever it takes. Not matching at all will be much more expensive.
3. Rank every program you interview at. Even the worst option is better than not matching. The only time to consider whether a program is strong or weak is when you are deciding where on your rank list they should go.
Then the "bad" programs you didn't rank wouldn't want you back, because if they had ranked you highly, they'd figure out you didn't rank them.
My point all along has been that it's bad form to discuss "bad" programs in a public forum (whether it's to help decide where you will apply or build your rank list). I think it's what made yuku crap, and I feel it'd be a shame if it happened here on sdn.
What about the programs with only 1 spot? I think for most people those are considered less favorable.
To the OP...apply everywhere that you think you would need to apply to...don't try to predict which programs you will like or dislike. Truth is that there are too many factors and you have no idea who your co-residents are going to be and how you will mesh with them.
As far as becoming a good dermatologist...it's all on the individual. You push yourself harder and have that inner fire, and you'll become a better dermatologist. Don't think that a school will somehow inject the passion and the drive into you...unless you live in the Matrix. I don't care whether it does or does not have a great reputation...reputations can be assumed on research funding and on the undergraduate institution (sadly) that align with the program. It's the individual at the end of the day.
Just because you went to a "top-tier" won't make you great and just because you went to a "lower-tier" doesn't mean that you can't be a great dermatologist. I think too many people pin too much on the school instead of holding individuals accountable. It's easier to focus on schools and departments but you fall into the trap of generalizing.
1. Apply to every program. I don't care if it's non ERAS or in Canada or whatever. If it will lead to ABD certification, you should apply to it.
Are there any programs outside of the USA that are acceptable for US board certification?
I somewhat disagree- it's not "all" on the individual as you say.
While I agree that if you are lazy and stupid, the best program still won't save you there ARE differences in programs. No matter how much you study, if you aren't exposed to certain clinical scenerios (repeatedly) you won't become good at certain things. While you can become a competent dermatologist at probably the vast majority of programs by working hard, memorizing bolognia WILL NOT make you a good dermatologist... thus, becoming a great dermatologist is easier at certain programs.
Asmallchild is right in that we can wax theory all day on this so I'll be more specific.
Doctalaughs, the beauty is that you are entitled to your opinion and that's what's great about this forum. But who said anything about "stupid" people? I don't know one "stupid" person among current dermies. And when did I say anything about "memorizing Bolognia" to become a good dermatologist? Looks like you are making up your own scenarios to create a good argument for yourself.
A lot of medicine is self-directed learning. Clinical scenarios are only as good as your curiosity and inquisition. But dermatology goes beyond that. What about therapies? What about topical formulations and the inactive ingredients? How can a 0.5% topical cream be stronger than a 2% topical cream ("inactive" ingredients make all the difference and drug companies know this)? What about FDA testing policies and are they valid to how derm products are used (sunscreens for example)? There is a lot of stuff that are essential to being a good/great dermatologist and you may not ever see them in your residency. Of course, each residency has a uniqe flavor. However, all the residencies are going to give you the tools to understand the language of derm. Small vs. big residencies will come down to personal preference and how the match plays out for you. The separation on whether you become a great dermatologist depends on your effort when no one is looking and you are doing it for yourself.
This should be obvious, but nevertheless here's the reno911 algorithm for applying for derm to maximize your success rate to the fullest extent.
1. Apply to every program. I don't care if it's non ERAS or in Canada or whatever. If it will lead to ABD certification, you should apply to it.
If someone could please sincerely answer the original question especially indivduals who recently matched as it would be helpful for this year's application process. If you want to hide your identity you may just PM me.
as an aside, glue huffing is pretty cool. if you want to obliterate the area of your brain that houses your first semester of med school in one night, hit the glue. if you run out of glue, you can switch to paint. good luck!!
If someone could please sincerely answer the original question especially indivduals who recently matched as it would be helpful for this year's application process. If you want to hide your identity you may just PM me.
Thanks starbucks, for being real.
Miss 155, its times like these that putting sore eye asses on your Ignore List is very helpful. The ignorance of his posts when you are asking a perfectly legitimate question which then puts him on the defensive is telling. The moderators should have banned him by now, but for some reason have not done so, esp. when you see his other posts that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. His screen name is indicative of his asinine posts as well as his asinine initial response, "you must huff a lot of glue. no sane person would post anything specific to this thread." The only exception would be programs that have only 1 resident a year.
While yes, every program has strengths and weaknesses, there are programs with HUGE weaknesses out there - which is helpful to interviewees, since everyone has to eventually taking their Derm boards. Please see the UT-Houston dermatology program thread, where the former resident actually goes into very good detail. It used to be easier when the board was on Yuku, so you may want to peruse that site as well from prior years.
the thing about which programs are "bad" is that it's subjective. some of the traditional top prestigious programs (harvard, upenn, ucsf, nyu type) certainly have enormous academic heft and are perfect for the gung-ho hardcore want-to-be-a-chairman-someday type, but they may also be intense enough to make one miserable and not enjoy learning dermatology despite getting great training (this definitely happens).
some small programs have obvious deficits, like poor academic organization, or lack of exposure to surgery or cosmetics for instance, or all experience in one clinic/hospital, too few residents. but many programs, regardless of size, have attendings that are simply malignant (i.e. teach by showing how much more they know than you or do not teach at all)-- and programs are small enough that turnover of even a couple attendings has a dramatic impact. regionality also affects the vibe of how programs run too (east coast vs. west coast vs. midwest vs. south).
i think the important thing is to (hopefully) find a program that teaches you what you need and want to learn, makes you comfortable enough to ask your elder residents and attendings for help and questions when you need to, and motivates you to learn out of interest rather than primarily out of fear that you will be humiliated or embarrassed (though a little anxiety is a good thing). And hopefully is open to letting you seek opportunities outside of the program that the program might not offer itself.