Away rotations - General Surgery

[Delayed2017]

Hi All,

Quick question about GS aways. I am limited in the number of away rotations I can schedule via my school (east coast MD school). I am interested in matching at USC / Keck (busy hospital, amazing trauma, county hospital experience with solid academics). So my question: is it MANDATORY to do an away at a place like USC/Keck if I'm coming from the East Coast? I have good stats (Surg/IM/OB/Peds - Honors, 247 Step 1, 2 first author pubs) but is that enough? The faculty members I've spoken with at my school seem split on the importance of aways.

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[swoopyswoop]

Hi All,

Quick question about GS aways. I am limited in the number of away rotations I can schedule via my school (east coast MD school). I am interested in matching at USC / Keck (busy hospital, amazing trauma, county hospital experience with solid academics). So my question: is it MANDATORY to do an away at a place like USC/Keck if I'm coming from the East Coast? I have good stats (Surg/IM/OB/Peds - Honors, 247 Step 1, 2 first author pubs) but is that enough? The faculty members I've spoken with at my school seem split on the importance of aways.

do you have any ties to california? the california programs can be hard to break into as an outsider. an away would show dedication/interest in training in that area. alternatively, you could also just send an email stating your interests in the program early on in the interview process. an away would obviously mean much more than an email, but you would need to be on 100% of the time from day 1 to impress people. one wrong step, piss off one person, and you will be hurting your chances which otherwise look pretty good on paper.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Hi All,

Quick question about GS aways. I am limited in the number of away rotations I can schedule via my school (east coast MD school). I am interested in matching at USC / Keck (busy hospital, amazing trauma, county hospital experience with solid academics). So my question: is it MANDATORY to do an away at a place like USC/Keck if I'm coming from the East Coast? I have good stats (Surg/IM/OB/Peds - Honors, 247 Step 1, 2 first author pubs) but is that enough? The faculty members I've spoken with at my school seem split on the importance of aways.

An away is like a month long interview. You can look good, but there are awful lot of ways you can look bad.

 

[Delayed2017]

An away is like a month long interview. You can look good, but there are awful lot of ways you can look bad.

That (as well as the extraordinary cost) is one of my main concerns. I've done well clinically but there is always the bad chance you will be on a toxic team or simply not click with your seniors. It's just hard to separate accurate information from the rumor mill.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

That (as well as the extraordinary cost) is one of my main concerns. I've done well clinically but there is always the bad chance you will be on a toxic team or simply not click with your seniors. It's just hard to separate accurate information from the rumor mill.

Plus you will be on an unfamiliar computer system and hospital system. If you are an otherwise strong candidate, I'd probably skip on the away just to show interest. Chances are most of the people they match will not have rotated there unless they were students there...

 

[Norris Morris]

Just rotate there if you're interested. The lived experience is profoundly superior to anything you will get from a few hours on interview days. And tons of us have 247s and honors and pubs. It's not enough--especially coming from the east coast--to pick and choose CA programs. Trust me. I didn't get an interview at one of my "USCs" and that means regardless of my years of best laid fantasies I will *never* do residency there. Go and work hard and do a good job and get yourself a strong letter or two. Guarantee yourself an interview instead of being passive and worried about it not working out the way you want it to because it might take an extra 20 minutes to learn how to use their EMR or your chief is a hardass. Go make it work out the way you want it to--or at least have that attitude. And if you find out that overall the answer for whatever reason is "no" (I am unashamed to say the biggest fear of most of us and the source of much of these away rotation emotional vacillations), don't be sad about it be thankful that you had the revelation. The idea of some places and the reality are not always the same, and you are usually better off to find out. If you truly can't afford to go money-wise then don't stress. But the scared of a bad impression talk and lack of control of who your team will be is bunk and the strategy that you are better off to hide yourself is--to me--way too passive. The majority of my relevant classmates did gen surg aways and genuinely enjoyed/felt better for the experiences.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Just rotate there if you're interested. The lived experience is profoundly superior to anything you will get from a few hours on interview days. And tons of us have 247s and honors and pubs. It's not enough--especially coming from the east coast--to pick and choose CA programs. Trust me. I didn't get an interview at one of my "USCs" and that means regardless of my years of best laid fantasies I will *never* do residency there. Go and work hard and do a good job and get yourself a strong letter or two. Guarantee yourself an interview instead of being passive and worried about it not working out the way you want it to because it might take an extra 20 minutes to learn how to use their EMR or your chief is a hardass. Go make it work out the way you want it to--or at least have that attitude. And if you find out that overall the answer for whatever reason is "no" (I am unashamed to say the biggest fear of most of us and the source of much of these away rotation emotional vacillations), don't be sad about it be thankful that you had the revelation. The idea of some places and the reality are not always the same, and you are usually better off to find out. If you truly can't afford to go money-wise then don't stress. But the scared of a bad impression talk and lack of control of who your team will be is bunk and the strategy that you are better off to hide yourself is--to me--way too passive. The majority of my relevant classmates did gen surg aways and genuinely enjoyed/felt better for the experiences.

And then when you don't do things right or have a personality conflict or whatever, your chances of matching there are in the dumps. Sure, you might get a courtesy interview, but you wouldn't match there. Plenty of people get interviews that never did an away rotation.

I'm not saying don't do aways... I did two myself. I ended up really liking one and got an interview there. I didn't like the other and I also didn't get an invite to that one. Yeah, I knew alot more about those programs afterwards. As a resident I had visiting students that did aways that sank themselves when it came to the interview because of their interactions.

And don't think it'll just take 20 minutes to learn a whole new EMR or the hospital layout or the local procedures. You'll be rusty and won't shine for the first week or so. That gives alot of time to make a bad impression...

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Check out the away rotations chapter of this blog:

Let me guess, you wrote it...

Not sure that advertising like this is following the ToS. @Winged Scapula?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Let me guess, you wrote it...

Not sure that advertising like this is following the ToS. @Winged Scapula?

Yep...links to personal blogs not allowed esp when bumping thread to advertise said blog

 

[premed8888]

If you do an away there, the people that said its like an month long interview are correct. I matched into a competitive AF combined specialty at my first choice after doing an away there. The month was arduous - getting up long before the interns to go in and chase labs, going above and beyond etc., knowing how to suture well in the OR which impressed the chief resident. He said he doesn't let med students or interns close certain incisions but he would scrub out and sit there watching me while I did it. Keep your head down and work hard without being cocky. Play to your strengths and show social competence. You can be super bright, but if they don't sync with you socially...game over. Apparently I did something right because when the PGY3 told one of the general surgery chiefs I had worked with as he was rotating through the integrated service that I had matched there...he said "oh yeah, I remember that kid...he made our ________ medical students look like idiots". All the best if you decide to do an away - I hope it works out for you - nothing like matching at your first choice.

 

[bannie22]

I would definitely do an away at USC if you are specifically interested in the program.
There is no better way to shine.
Yes you have great stats, but unless you also have those connections to make the decisive phone call, I think you gotta go out there and make those connections yourself.

Don't listen to the passive/negativity here because your clinical skills don't seem like something that will let you down during a rotation.
Also, you will have a better idea what is at USC, and realize how terrible trauma can be when taken in huge doses.

 

[ncrassa]

I am in the away subI camp. My primary motivation was to audit the program I might be spending the next 7 years of my life in, and both experiences were very revealing. You learn a lot about the culture of the place: the type of personalities, the politics, the systems processes of the hospital, how much support there is for residents, how much residents get to do in the OR... Interview days can be profoundly misleading.

I agree that is difficult to shine and that all it takes is one bad encounter to close that door, but that is a risk-benefit analysis you have to perform. Ultimately, I felt I had far more to gain by doing away rotations than I had to lose. I was not committed to a single place and was interested in many programs, so the aways gave me a lot of insight into not only those specific programs but also helped crystallize my priorities in choosing programs.