Australia Medical School Worth it?

[HelloYo2021]

Hey,

Is going to an Australian medical school worth it as a Canadian? I don't mind living there and how is the internship crisis there?

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[deleted1027026]

Following, I'm curious about Australian med school myself.

 

[WOWM]

International students are at the very bottom of the list to receive internship positions. Australian citizens attending Australian med schools are placed first, Australian citizens who attended foreign med school are next, non-citizens who graduated from Australian med school get whatever is left. Whether or not there are any leftover slots for internationals varies from year to year and depends on what state your school is located in. (Unlike the the US or Canada, residency matching is done regionally with each state handling its own placements.) Basically, Australian medical schools expect international students to go home once they complete med school.

While it may be possible to get a 1 year internship placement, further training is not guaranteed for internationals. Completing an intern year will not qualify you for a medical license.

Australian post grad med training is more like the UK system than the US or Canada.

It's all but impossible for internationals to be accepted into specialty residencies. (Even primary care fields like pediatrics or OB/GYN.)

There a couple of medical schools that have special programs for US and Canadian students. Oschner School of Medicine at the University of Queensland sends US and Canadian student to do clinical rotations at Oschner Health in Louisiana and has decent success in matching its grads back to the US.

 

[deleted1027026]

International students are at the very bottom of the list to receive internship positions. Australian citizens attending Australian med schools are placed first, Australian citizens who attended foreign med school are next, non-citizens who graduated from Australian med school get whatever is left. Whether or not there are any leftover slots for internationals varies from year to year and depends on what state your school is located in. (Unlike the the US or Canada, residency matching is done regionally with each state handling its own placements.) Basically, Australian medical schools expect international students to go home once they complete med school.

While it may be possible to get a 1 year internship placement, further training is not guaranteed for internationals. Completing an intern year will not qualify you for a medical license.

Australian post grad med training is more like the UK system than the US or Canada.

It's all but impossible for internationals to be accepted into specialty residencies. (Even primary care fields like pediatrics or OB/GYN.)

There a couple of medical schools that have special programs for US and Canadian students. Oschner School of Medicine at the University of Queensland sends US and Canadian student to do clinical rotations at Oschner Health in Louisiana and has decent success in matching its grads back to the US.

Any other ones like Oschner, or is that the only one of its kind that has clinical rotations in US/Canada?

 

[mcat_taker]

This isn't entirely accurate. OP I encourage you to find people who trained as internationals in Australia. Everyone I know who wanted internship got one after doing medical school in Australia as an international. There are still plenty of spots every year especially with the private hospitals who have spots reserved for internationals who did medical school in Australia. Competitive specialties are competitive for EVERYONE not more so for internationals. Once you get PR/Visa it is a level playing field and is merit based / point based. I am not sure what background WOWM is but I encourage you to talk to more people.

Completing an intern year gets you general medical registration. You can then locum and practice in diff settings if you wanted.

Yes there are training bottlenecks to get onto specialities but that is not unique to internationals. Once you get intern year done you have a lot of options. Many hospitals hiring for JMO/SHO level positions for PGY2-3.

Whether it is worth it means different things to different people. If you can't get into medical school in Canada and you want to be a doctor badly enough you'll end up overseas. Returning to Canada requires you to be self motivated enough to get your exams done. Most medical schools in Australia give you some elective time in your clinical years to do rotations in Canada if you wanted. You have to be ok with uncertainty going in and not having a guaranteed job. The U.S. does not guarantee residency training either.

The model in Australia is general rotating internship, JMO year, SHO year, PHO (unaccredited registrar), and accredited registrar (on a speciality pathway). The model in the U.S. is direct vocational training in a specialty from med school. There are pluses and minuses to both systems. Training time in Australia is longer but pays a better wage and hours are generally better.

 

[Wolvvs]

Please reach out to Amanda at OzTREKK, and attend one of their webinars. They've got the whole process for applying to Australia and coming back to Canada mapped out, and it's free to work with them since they're funded by the schools themselves. Getting a Canadian residency as a Canadian citizen who trained abroad is easier than getting a US residency as a US citizen who studied abroad because of the way the Canadian match works, there's a good reason many Canadian students choose to go to Australia.

If your goal is to stay in Australia, you can do that but may have limited choice in where you do residency/will have to work harder and longer to get into the specialties. I'm not an expert so probably listen to some of the posts above, but make sure you do your research. Things tend to vary quite a bit by state--Victoria's the best for international students, Deakin, UMelb, and Monash are each picky about applicants in their own way but you'll probably meet the criteria for at least one of them. Good luck

 

[Med201821]

International students are at the very bottom of the list to receive internship positions.

Not true. Obviously domestics are placed above but foreign trained medical doctors are placed below domestically trained ones regardless of their citizenship status.

And in nearly every specialty rotation I've done there have been no shortage of FMG's practicing in that specialty.

Basically, Australian medical schools expect international students to go home once they complete med school.

Please show me anything that can corroborate or substantiate that claim. "Expect" that is a big claim. I would not argue if you had said preferred but you didn't say that so please I would like to know where you got that from.

While it may be possible to get a 1 year internship placement, further training is not guaranteed for internationals. Completing an intern year will not qualify you for a medical license.

Yeah. Further training is not guaranteed for anyone. If your a garbage intern employers are not going to want to hire you on for further employment. Again, regardless of citizenship status.

Completing intern year allows you to apply for medical registration provided the criteria in the link I share below are met. Again, regardless of citizenship status.

Medical Board of Australia - Interns

Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency

www.medicalboard.gov.au

It's all but impossible for internationals to be accepted into specialty residencies. (Even primary care fields like pediatrics or OB/GYN.)

Please show the stats for this. What does "all but impossible" even mean. 99.9 %.

has decent success in matching its grads back to the US.

Actually they have fantastic match stats. Unless they are doing dodgy things with their stats. I believe they have an overall 94 % match rate. It might even be higher if that does not include SOAP.

Anyways. Sorry if this is a bit harsh but the narrative your portraying is a bit disingenuous. Very few international students at the school I attend, since I've been here (MS4 now), have gone back home. So that has to be nearly 100 internationals. Some of which are PGY3 now. All of the current group of interns stayed in Australia. None of them failed to secure employment.

Again, if you are dead set on working in downtown Sydney, Melbourne etc yeah you might not find employment. But that is the same for all students.

Cheers

 

[Damson]

Not true. Obviously domestics are placed above but foreign trained medical doctors are placed below domestically trained ones regardless of their citizenship status.

And in nearly every specialty rotation I've done there have been no shortage of FMG's practicing in that specialty.



Please show me anything that can corroborate or substantiate that claim. "Expect" that is a big claim. I would not argue if you had said preferred but you didn't say that so please I would like to know where you got that from.



Yeah. Further training is not guaranteed for anyone. If your a garbage intern employers are not going to want to hire you on for further employment. Again, regardless of citizenship status.

Completing intern year allows you to apply for medical registration provided the criteria in the link I share below are met. Again, regardless of citizenship status.

Medical Board of Australia - Interns

Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency

www.medicalboard.gov.au

Please show the stats for this. What does "all but impossible" even mean. 99.9 %.



Actually they have fantastic match stats. Unless they are doing dodgy things with their stats. I believe they have an overall 94 % match rate. It might even be higher if that does not include SOAP.

Anyways. Sorry if this is a bit harsh but the narrative your portraying is a bit disingenuous. Very few international students at the school I attend, since I've been here (MS4 now), have gone back home. So that has to be nearly 100 internationals. Some of which are PGY3 now. All of the current group of interns stayed in Australia. None of them failed to secure employment.

Again, if you are dead set on working in downtown Sydney, Melbourne etc yeah you might not find employment. But that is the same for all students.

Cheers

yeah...all but impossible actually means "highly possible, not impossible"

 

[Damson]

Please reach out to Amanda at OzTREKK, and attend one of their webinars. They've got the whole process for applying to Australia and coming back to Canada mapped out, and it's free to work with them since they're funded by the schools themselves. Getting a Canadian residency as a Canadian citizen who trained abroad is easier than getting a US residency as a US citizen who studied abroad because of the way the Canadian match works, there's a good reason many Canadian students choose to go to Australia.

If your goal is to stay in Australia, you can do that but may have limited choice in where you do residency/will have to work harder and longer to get into the specialties. I'm not an expert so probably listen to some of the posts above, but make sure you do your research. Things tend to vary quite a bit by state--Victoria's the best for international students, Deakin, UMelb, and Monash are each picky about applicants in their own way but you'll probably meet the criteria for at least one of them. Good luck

What @Wolvvs refers to is the Victorian internship priority ranks, which are
1. Australian graduates from a VIC school
2. International students graduating from a VIC school
3. Australian graduates from an interstate school

All other schools (I believe) have #2 and #3 flipped.

That said, even if you attend a med school in another state, you will likely still match, as long as you apply instate and interstate and are ready to sign JDTP (private hospital internship stream for international students only) if you don't match at a Commonwealth(publicly)-funded hospital.

 

[cdndoc2020]

International students are at the very bottom of the list to receive internship positions. Australian citizens attending Australian med schools are placed first, Australian citizens who attended foreign med school are next, non-citizens who graduated from Australian med school get whatever is left. Whether or not there are any leftover slots for internationals varies from year to year and depends on what state your school is located in. (Unlike the the US or Canada, residency matching is done regionally with each state handling its own placements.) Basically, Australian medical schools expect international students to go home once they complete med school.

While it may be possible to get a 1 year internship placement, further training is not guaranteed for internationals. Completing an intern year will not qualify you for a medical license.

Australian post grad med training is more like the UK system than the US or Canada.

It's all but impossible for internationals to be accepted into specialty residencies. (Even primary care fields like pediatrics or OB/GYN.)

There a couple of medical schools that have special programs for US and Canadian students. Oschner School of Medicine at the University of Queensland sends US and Canadian student to do clinical rotations at Oschner Health in Louisiana and has decent success in matching its grads back to the US.

I’m not sure where you are getting your infos..Almost all Canadians who wanted to stay back did get a spot . In fact those Canadians that I know who got placement in NSW, even got additional offers from other states .

 

[lymphocyte]

Hey,

Is going to an Australian medical school worth it as a Canadian? I don't mind living there and how is the internship crisis there?

I'm PGY 5 with only a couple years left to go in my speciality training programme. I started as an American IMG.

Coming to Australia was one of the best decisions of my life, though I didn't always think so.

Everybody who wanted an internship in my year (and the years above and below) got one.

Not much trouble with speciality training opportunities once I got PR.

I found it relatively easy to make 200K+ PGY3+ with locum work.

FRACGP is recognised in Canada and the US if you want to go back as a family medicine specialist.

Lifestyle is incredible.

Of course, there were hoops and hurdles. Biggest drawbacks were being far away from family (especially during COVID), the cost of education, and the overall lack of certainty, which caused a lot of stress. Nothing ended up being insurmountable.

There will always be doomsayers who tell you the sky is falling. That's what they told me almost 10 years ago when I started this process. Looks like they're saying the same thing now. Oh well. All I can say is that, in the end, none of my colleagues regretted coming here -- the ones that stayed or the ones that went back.

 

[hopefulUQ]

I'm PGY 5 with only a couple years left to go in my speciality training programme. I started as an American IMG.

Coming to Australia was one of the best decisions of my life, though I didn't always think so.

Everybody who wanted an internship in my year (and the years above and below) got one.

Not much trouble with speciality training opportunities once I got PR.

I found it relatively easy to make 200K+ PGY3+ with locum work.

FRACGP is recognised in Canada and the US if you want to go back as a family medicine specialist.

Lifestyle is incredible.

Of course, there were hoops and hurdles. Biggest drawbacks were being far away from family (especially during COVID), the cost of education, and the overall lack of certainty, which caused a lot of stress. Nothing ended up being insurmountable.

There will always be doomsayers who tell you the sky is falling. That's what they told me almost 10 years ago when I started this process. Looks like they're saying the same thing now. Oh well. All I can say is that, in the end, none of my colleagues regretted coming here -- the ones that stayed or the ones that went back.

Hi,

I'm an American who is thinking about accepting an offer to an Australian Medical School for 2022 and I really want to stay in Australia following graduating medical school.

Do you mind me asking which school you went to?
I am thinking about Flinders or UQ (not the Ochsner program) - do you have any insight into either one of those two schools?

Also how difficult was it to get PR following medical school?
I can see you've already responded to the question in regards to internships (which was really helpful and encouraging, thank you!!) as I was worried I wouldn't be able to get an internship.

What would you say was the most difficult part of your journey thus far? (getting an internship/struggling with finances/getting PR/ getting specialty training opportunities?

And I suppose lastly, would you do it all over again if you knew what you know now?

I apologize for all the questions but you're the first American that I've found on ANY forums that graduated from an Australian medical school and are now living there so I'm quite keen to speak to you please and thank you!

​

 

[lymphocyte]

Go to the cheapest school.

Flinders is great because you'll get a higher preference for internship being a South Australian graduate. Adelaide is a lovely town and very affordable. It's a pretty far away if you plan to visit home often. I don't know much about the academic side of things so it would be worth asking some of the students there.

PR is an never ending story but odds are you should not have an issue. I think there's going to be a shortage of interns given the COVID situation and border closures, but it's hard to tell at this stage.

The hardest part was the uncertainty of it all. Things change. For example, I wept blood studying for Step 1, did pretty well, and it's all going pass/fail anyways. The visa system changed half way through medical school. We were all scared we wouldn't get jobs. Etc. Nothing insurmountable.

If I could do it all over again, I probably would but the stress was incredible, especially for a neurotic medical student.

I don't know if I would choose medicine again, but that's a seperate discussion.

 

[hopefulUQ]

Go to the cheapest school.

Flinders is great because you'll get a higher preference for internship being a South Australian graduate. Adelaide is a lovely town and very affordable. It's a pretty far away if you plan to visit home often. I don't know much about the academic side of things so it would be worth asking some of the students there.

PR is an never ending story but odds are you should not have an issue. I think there's going to be a shortage of interns given the COVID situation and border closures, but it's hard to tell at this stage.

The hardest part was the uncertainty of it all. Things change. For example, I wept blood studying for Step 1, did pretty well, and it's all going pass/fail anyways. The visa system changed half way through medical school. We were all scared we wouldn't get jobs. Etc. Nothing insurmountable.

If I could do it all over again, I probably would but the stress was incredible, especially for a neurotic medical student.

I don't know if I would choose medicine again, but that's a seperate discussion.

Thank you for responding - really appreciate it!

I hope you don't mind me asking but did you have to take out loans from student aid / are you finding it manageable to pay off loans from the American government with the career you have now? Or did you attend a school that didn't take FAFSA / you were self-funded?

I don't have any support from family or scholarships, so it would be all from FAFSA and I'm just worried about being in so much debt for the rest of my life.

Are you finding it manageable with loans? - assuming you did borrow money?

Thank you again for helping me!!

 

[Wolvvs]

Keep in mind that if you want US government loans, Flinders and UQ are currently the only options. You can use Sallie Mae to pay for some of the other schools, but there are the additional risks that come with taking out private loans and I think their maximum loan amount is on the low side.

 

[lymphocyte]

Thank you for responding - really appreciate it!

I hope you don't mind me asking but did you have to take out loans from student aid / are you finding it manageable to pay off loans from the American government with the career you have now? Or did you attend a school that didn't take FAFSA / you were self-funded?

I don't have any support from family or scholarships, so it would be all from FAFSA and I'm just worried about being in so much debt for the rest of my life.

Are you finding it manageable with loans? - assuming you did borrow money?

Thank you again for helping me!!

I got a scholarship and fortunately paid very little out of pocket.

Do not get a private loan under any circumstances. The federal loans have crazy generous income based repayment schemes if you're staying in Australia.

Because the first $160,000 AUD is exempt from US taxes, your net income will be zero for a long time and hence no repayment. Beyond that, you're only paying a small percentage of your income. After 20 years or so, the loans are wiped away and you only have to pay the tax on the loan amount forgiven (basically, pennies for dollars).

It's an insane loophole that a few of my colleagues are exploiting. The federal loan scheme is very broken.

Nothing is written in stone, and I would strongly suggest get some accounting/tax advice before signing anything.

 

[mcat_taker]

Keep in mind that if you want US government loans, Flinders and UQ are currently the only options. You can use Sallie Mae to pay for some of the other schools, but there are the additional risks that come with taking out private loans and I think their maximum loan amount is on the low side.

Interesting I wonder why only those schools specifically ?

 

[hopefulUQ]

Keep in mind that if you want US government loans, Flinders and UQ are currently the only options. You can use Sallie Mae to pay for some of the other schools, but there are the additional risks that come with taking out private loans and I think their maximum loan amount is on the low side.

Yes! I am aware of that. I have received an offer from Flinders and have an interview with UQ soon

 

[hopefulUQ]

Interesting I wonder why only those schools specifically ?

There's some information on the FAFSA website which says:
Note: International medical schools must annually report and meet certain eligibility requirements to remain as participants in the federal student loan programs. Additionally, an international school may be eligible to participate in the federal student loan programs, but the school’s medical program may be ineligible to participate. This list is a resource only and you MUST contact your intended school to confirm that its medical program is currently eligible and participates in the loan program.

So it seems like it has to do with meeting eligibility requirements and reporting.

Am I allowed to post links on here? I hope so - but just leaving this here for any further American student with questions.

https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/international

 

[hopefulUQ]

I got a scholarship and fortunately paid very little out of pocket.

Do not get a private loan under any circumstances. The federal loans have crazy generous income based repayment schemes if you're staying in Australia.

Because the first $160,000 AUD is exempt from US taxes, your net income will be zero for a long time and hence no repayment. Beyond that, you're only paying a small percentage of your income. After 20 years or so, the loans are wiped away and you only have to pay the tax on the loan amount forgiven (basically, pennies for dollars).

It's an insane loophole that a few of my colleagues are exploiting. The federal loan scheme is very broken.

Nothing is written in stone, and I would strongly suggest get some accounting/tax advice before signing anything.

Right okay, I wasn't aware of the first $160,000 AUD being exempt from US taxes but I was aware of the 20 year rule.
That is an insane loophole!
I was really worried about taking out so many loans but the information you've provided has made me feel a bit better, so thank you
I also wasn't planning on taking out any private loans as I've heard horrible things about them in general and also specifically about Sallie Mae. Glad to know your advice would be to avoid them as well.

 

[Wolvvs]

Interesting I wonder why only those schools specifically ?

Like @amy12tam said, there are reporting requirements for international medical schools. I think they have to maintain certain overall pass rates on US board exams, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some sort of fee associated as well. Very few American students choose to go to an Australian university, so maintaining eligibility for US student loans isn't really important to them (except for UQ obviously).

 

[qldking]

It's well worth it. I have been out for 11 years now and living in paradise here. Imagine 8 years of Obama and potentially 8 years of Biden. No amount of salary could make me go back to the US.