AUA

[tony729]

Hi everyone I am currently researching Caribbean medical schools. I know that SGU, Ross, AUC and Saba are the best in the business but I have been looking into AUA and it seems like a good option. I would like to know your opinion, especially if you attended or are attending AUA. I found it rather appealing due to the fact they do not require an MCAT score and are accredited in every state except Missouri (which they will in 2019, year I would be graduating if I went).

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[bedevilled ben]

Hi everyone I am currently researching Caribbean medical schools. I know that SGU, Ross, AUC and Saba are the best in the business but I have been looking into AUA and it seems like a good option. I would like to know your opinion, especially if you attended or are attending AUA. I found it rather appealing due to the fact they do not require an MCAT score and are accredited in every state except Missouri (which they will in 2019, year I would be graduating if I went).

If you know SGU, Ross, AUC, and Saba have a better track record, why aren't you looking more closely at them? If sitting a four hour exam is enough to change your decision I would respectfully suggest that you reevaluate your motivations.

 

[Skip Intro]

... are accredited in every state except Missouri (which they will in 2019, year I would be graduating if I went).

Be careful. You might not receive approval based on the timing (i.e., the starting class in 2019 will be approved and you may not be grandfathered in). That is, if you ever intend to practice in Missouri.

-Skip

 

[KyleV]

I've talked to a few AUA students and have read some alarming posts that there is a serious cheating problem there. Their loan structure also seems borderline predatory, so try to scope out the terms of that loan as medical school is already expensive enough. Perhaps I'm just highlighting the negative on AUA and their program has some redeeming qualities, but when I get to the point in applying (years from now-lots of post bac to do) I'm not so sure I'll be applying there.

 

[jakeislove]

I've talked to a few AUA students and have read some alarming posts that there is a serious cheating problem there. Their loan structure also seems borderline predatory, so try to scope out the terms of that loan as medical school is already expensive enough. Perhaps I'm just highlighting the negative on AUA and their program has some redeeming qualities, but when I get to the point in applying (years from now-lots of post bac to do) I'm not so sure I'll be applying there.

Borderline?!

 

[KyleV]

Something like 50/350 of a recent class at AUA passed Step 1.

 

[hallowmann]

I've heard very little good about this school. It may have redeeming qualities, but if the only issue is taking the MCAT, I would say to just study and take the test. At least then, you could first apply stateside, and if that doesn't work out, apply to the Big 4.

Medical school is plenty of hard work. I can't imagine being willing to accept students who don't want to put in the work to sit for a 4-6 hr test is a plus for any school. If anything, it seems like its going out of its way to attract people who may never be able to do well on standardized tests, which never end in medicine.

 

[jakeislove]

Something like 50/350 of a recent class at AUA passed Step 1.

It's possible you're incorrectly repeating a comp shelf rumor.

 

[Skip Intro]

According to the 2014 Match list on their website (http://www.auamed.org/graduate-success/residency-placements/#residency-placement-2014), their graduates seemed to do pretty okay.

Specialty (Number)
Anesthesiology (5)
Child Neurology (1)
Emergency Medicine (1)
Family Medicine (87)
Family Medicine/Rural (1)
General Surgery (5)
Internal Medicine (86)
Internal Medicine/Primary Care (1)
Med/Neurology (2)
Medicine (4)
Medicine – Pediatrics (1)
Medicine – Primary (5)
Medicine-Pediatrics (2)
Neurology (7)
Neurology-Advanced (1)
Nuclear Medicine (1)
OB/GYN (2)
Ophthalmology (1)
Pathology (2)
Pediatrics (17)
Pediatrics – Primary (1)
Physical Medicine & Rehab (5)
Plastic Surgery (Integrated) (1)
Primary Care (1)
Psychiatry (21)
Radiology (1)
Radiology-Diagnostic (5)
Surgery (4)
Transitional (3)
==============
Grand Total 274

---------------------------------------

By State...

State / # Placements
NY 84
MI 27
NJ 22
OH 19
PA 13
LA 10
IL 9
GA 8
CT 7
MD 7
Canada 6
NC 6
VA 6
FL 5
NE 5
TX 5
MO 4
MS 4
OK 4
SC 3
TN 3
AR 2
CA 2
IN 2
KY 2
AL 1
AZ 1
HI 1
IA 1
ME 1
MN 1
MT 1
NH 1
WI 1
================
Grand Total 274

No surprises. Most in primary care. Placing in the states with most need. This list seems comparable to AUC's list, at least to me.

-Skip

 

[jakeislove]

I believe that list represents graduates who matched over the past 3 years. Not simply 2014.

 

[Skip Intro]

Interestingly, they had 4 residents who placed in Missouri:

St. Louis University School of Medicine – Belleville Family Medicine MO
St. Marys Health Center Internal Medicine MO
University Hospitals – Columbia Internal Medicine MO
University Hospitals – Columbia Pediatrics MO

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

I believe that list represents graduates who matched over the past 3 years. Not simply 2014.

No, this is just 2014. They have other lists for the other years.

-Skip

 

[jakeislove]

No, this is just 2014. They have other lists for the other years.

-Skip

I'll look at it. I could have it confused with another list they sent out. The list I saw had a legend (at the end) that clarified how some of the data was from other years.

 

[Skip Intro]

I'll look at it. I could have it confused with another list they sent out. The list I saw had a legend (at the end) that clarified how some of the data was from other years.

Just click on the link above. You can browse through their tabbed lists from each of the last four years. They are all different.

-Skip

 

[Mad Jack]

Hi everyone I am currently researching Caribbean medical schools. I know that SGU, Ross, AUC and Saba are the best in the business but I have been looking into AUA and it seems like a good option. I would like to know your opinion, especially if you attended or are attending AUA. I found it rather appealing due to the fact they do not require an MCAT score and are accredited in every state except Missouri (which they will in 2019, year I would be graduating if I went).

Just take the MCAT, omg...

 

[jakeislove]

Just click on the link above. You can browse through their tabbed lists from each of the last four years. They are all different.

-Skip

Format is neater than what was previously on the website. Wish I'd kept the original.

 

[KyleV]

It's possible you're incorrectly repeating a comp shelf rumor.

Apologies if I am, but could you speak about any comp shelf/cheating issues? Where this 50/350 is coming from? I'm not trying to put you on the spot it's just been hard to get reliable information out of AUA and the few times we've talked you've been very knowledgable and upfront. Thanks!

 

[jakeislove]

Apologies if I am, but could you speak about any comp shelf/cheating issues? Where this 50/350 is coming from? I'm not trying to put you on the spot it's just been hard to get reliable information out of AUA and the few times we've talked you've been very knowledgable and upfront. Thanks!

I've been off the island a while and haven't heard anything new about the "shelf". Not even certain if they're using a real NBME exam or a Kaplan equivalent.

 

[Skip Intro]

Format is neater than what was previously on the website. Wish I'd kept the original.

To be fair, I condensed and tabulated this using Excel. And, generally, their numbers are comparable to AUC in St. Maarten with regards to number of placements, and they fall out similarly to all the other schools with the bulk being in primary care (FP, Peds), Internal Medicine, and Psych.

The rest is a potluck, just like the other schools.

-Skip

 

[maygog]

To be fair, I condensed and tabulated this using Excel. And, generally, their numbers are comparable to AUC in St. Maarten with regards to number of placements, and they fall out similarly to all the other schools with the bulk being in primary care (FP, Peds), Internal Medicine, and Psych.

The rest is a potluck, just like the other schools.

-Skip

No way AUA's match rate is equal to AUC's. To start off, AUA is owned by Manipal - a for profit private medical school in India that rakes in high school kids who couldn't get accepted anywhere just for money. The profs at AUA are from Manipal - they are not USMLE trained and they are known for Cheating. Also AUC's students who have real GPAs and MCAT scores are much stronger academically than AUA which takes in kids straight out of high school (enter them in their accelerated bridge AICASA premed/Manipal - Med program).

AUA lost NBME privileges and recently even Kaplan has red flagged AUA since shelf/comprehensive shelf exams have been leaked. No bank ever wants to lend the school loans and even the school provost is disgruntled against Manipal who owns the school.

 

[Skip Intro]

I'm just comparing numbers of residency placements side-by-side. The rest of your assertions... well, they may or may not be true, but they're irrelevant.

So, either AUA is lying, or they're pretty close to the number of spots that AUC places, which was 226 in this 2014 cycle according to their website (compared to AUA's 274).

http://www.aucmed.edu/alumni/residency-placement/residency-placements.aspx

Both are far more than SABA.

-Skip

 

[maygog]

AUA is lying. No way AUA places more residents than AUC. Also, the president of AUA (Neil Simon) was also a former president at ROSS - he himself acknowledged no way AUC/Ross has less placements than AUA.

Do you honestly believe that highschool kids from manipal out perform AUC's US students who have a solid undergrad/grad education, GPAs and MCAT scores? Or even Saba students?

Also, in terms of the cheating scandals I stressed earlier - they do go a long way in impacting a school's rotation spots and securing residency placements in certain states. AUA has always had problems with clinical spots and residencies in certain states who chose to cut ties with the school due to rampant cheating.

Also Google - lawsuits filed against AUA - considering AUA is 10 years old, they had numerous lawsuits filed against them. Then you can validate the authenticity of AUA by your self!

 

[Skip Intro]

I'm just commenting on what's posted on their website. Beyond that, it's not really high on my level of interest to either corroborate or refute what they've published there, or any other of your allegations.

And, they certainly don't place more than Ross (or SGU), which are (both) well over 700 per year. That was never in contention. Yes, I was there (Ross) when Neil Simon was the president. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Ross' placements were never at issue.

Again, if you compare what's posted on the website, this year (2014) AUA had more placements than AUC. Neither came close to SGU or Ross. All four were individually more than Saba, which was 154.

https://www.saba.edu/images/Forms/2014_Saba Residency.pdf

If they are lying on their websites (any of them), one would be able to readily deduce this by verifying the lists against the actual program website to see who's in each program and where they graduated. This would be a somewhat arduous task to do for 274 graduates, and one I have zero interest in undertaking.

-Skip

 

[jakeislove]

I'm just comparing numbers of residency placements side-by-side. The rest of your assertions... well, they may or may not be true, but they're irrelevant.

So, either AUA is lying, or they're pretty close to the number of spots that AUC places, which was 226 in this 2014 cycle according to their website (compared to AUA's 274).

http://www.aucmed.edu/alumni/residency-placement/residency-placements.aspx

Both are far more than SABA.

-Skip

I'm guessing the 274 is true. There also may be a few people who declined sending in the form notifying AUA of where they placed and a few positions accepted outside of the match.

 

[Skip Intro]

Well, the bottom line and what people should care about more is the percentage who matched.

If, for example, School A placed 200 into residency, but they also had only 200 graduates, then that is a stellar 100% placement rate.

If School B had 400 placements, but they had 800 graduates, then that is an abysmal 50% placement rate.

Only posting the number of placements may make it artificially look like School B is the better choice, when it clearly may not be.

It would be more helpful if the schools actually posted this information.

-Skip

 

[jakeislove]

Well, the bottom line and what people should care about more is the percentage who matched.

If, for example, School A placed 200 into residency, but they also had only 200 graduates, then that is a stellar 100% placement rate.

If School B had 400 placements, but they had 800 graduates, then that is an abysmal 50% placement rate.

Only posting the number of placements may make it artificially look like School B is the better choice, when it clearly may not be.

It would be more helpful if the schools actually posted this information.

-Skip

The rumored rate is less than 50%.

 

[Skip Intro]

Yes, rumored.

Because none of the schools are compelled to publish either their attrition rates or their actual percent of grads who didn't match. The best we can do is look at the NRMP tables and try to decipher based on the country, now that they are "all-in" with the Match.

The NRMP could probably provide this information as well, if they wanted to.

-Skip

 

[maygog]

Yes, rumored.

Because none of the schools are compelled to publish either their attrition rates or their actual percent of grads who didn't match. The best we can do is look at the NRMP tables and try to decipher based on the country, now that they are "all-in" with the Match.

The NRMP could probably provide this information as well, if they wanted to.

-Skip

With due respect, I do believe SGU and AUC's match rates for residencies are at the higher end (I believe 50-60% for SGU, a bit lower for AUC). Then, I am guessing ROSS and SABA are at around 30-45%. I think credit should be given where it's due - SGU students are very smart, some even comparable to top tier US students so I would say 50-60% match rate is realistic.

AUA is probably between 10-20% if not lower.

 

[bedevilled ben]

With due respect, I do believe SGU and AUC's match rates for residencies are at the higher end (I believe 50-60% for SGU, a bit lower for AUC). Then, I am guessing ROSS and SABA are at around 30-45%. I think credit should be given where it's due - SGU students are very smart, some even comparable to top tier US students so I would say 50-60% match rate is realistic.

AUA is probably between 10-20% if not lower.

With due respect, your numbers are very wrong. SGU and Ross have the highest placement rates with approximately 70-75% first-choice placement, and something like 85-90% ultimate placement rates. AUA's rough first-choice placement rate is about 50%, and AUC's first-choice placement rate is about 60%. This is conservatively assuming that the school's average placement rate is approximately the same as the country's average placement rate. I don't have the time to parse the numbers further and investigate how many schools there are in each country, but this should be acceptable for a rough approximation.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf

Edit to emphasize Skip's caveat that this is exclusively based on NRMP reported data. Your mileage may vary.

 

[maygog]

With due respect, your numbers are very wrong. SGU and Ross have the highest placement rates with approximately 70-75% first-choice placement, and something like 85-90% ultimate placement rates. AUA's rough first-choice placement rate is about 50%, and AUC's first-choice placement rate is about 60%. This is conservatively assuming that the school's average placement rate is approximately the same as the country's average placement rate. I don't have the time to parse the numbers further and investigate how many schools there are in each country, but this should be acceptable for a rough approximation.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf

Edit to emphasize Skip's caveat that this is exclusively based on NRMP reported data. Your mileage may vary.

Sorry - You are right for ROSS and SGU. Although for AUA - they do get a lot of transfers from top tier caribb schools for clinicals - add them in when you factor in match rate.

 

[edgerock24]

With due respect, your numbers are very wrong. SGU and Ross have the highest placement rates with approximately 70-75% first-choice placement, and something like 85-90% ultimate placement rates. AUA's rough first-choice placement rate is about 50%, and AUC's first-choice placement rate is about 60%. This is conservatively assuming that the school's average placement rate is approximately the same as the country's average placement rate. I don't have the time to parse the numbers further and investigate how many schools there are in each country, but this should be acceptable for a rough approximation.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf

Edit to emphasize Skip's caveat that this is exclusively based on NRMP reported data. Your mileage may vary.

Just curious, on page 22 of that report, 534 out of 792 total US IMG's from Grenada matched. Since SGU is the only medical school in Grenada, we can assume that all of these students are from SGU. This gives us a ~67% match rate, which seems quite low. I am just wondering why you believe the true figure to be 85-90%.

 

[maygog]

Just out of curiosity, what happens to those who don't match? Do they go after other careers? I mean how do you pay off the loans?

 

[bedevilled ben]

Just curious, on page 22 of that report, 534 out of 792 total US IMG's from Grenada matched. Since SGU is the only medical school in Grenada, we can assume that all of these students are from SGU. This gives us a ~67% match rate, which seems quite low. I am just wondering why you believe the true figure to be 85-90%.

Because of the way the NRMP reports those data, and because the school gives us the statistics from the previous cycle and goes through them with us in great detail. If you read through the methodology at the beginning, it points out that this is only students that didn't match their preferred specialty, not students that failed to match into any program at all. As IMGs, we are highly encouraged by the school and our advisors to apply to different programs, including backup programs in less-competitive specialities. If 70% of students are getting their preferred residency, then I think it's fair to say that 85-90% of students match into something. That also jives with what the school reported to us in Year 3 during our Match planning meetings.

 

[bedevilled ben]

Just out of curiosity, what happens to those who don't match? Do they go after other careers? I mean how do you pay off the loans?

Various things. While there isn't really a formal scramble anymore, it is still possible to secure positions after the Match, I know at least 2 people that have done this. Most students will take a year to do research or teach, and reapply. It is possible to do research or consulting without PG clinical training and make decent money. Skip's "Cautionary Tale" post is about a non-traditional student that failed to Match. An enlightening, albeit heartbreaking, story.

 

[maygog]

Because of the way the NRMP reports those data, and because the school gives us the statistics from the previous cycle and goes through them with us in great detail. If you read through the methodology at the beginning, it points out that this is only students that didn't match their preferred specialty, not students that failed to match into any program at all. As IMGs, we are highly encouraged by the school and our advisors to apply to different programs, including backup programs in less-competitive specialities. If 70% of students are getting their preferred residency, then I think it's fair to say that 85-90% of students match into something. That also jives with what the school reported to us in Year 3 during our Match planning meetings.

While I do agree that 80% of SGU grads do match into something, would it be fair to say that a majority do not match at all when they come from lower tiered schools like AUA, MUA and SMU? I know AUA says 50% - but a lot are transfers from AUC and Ross

 

[bedevilled ben]

While I do agree that 80% of SGU grads do match into something, would it be fair to say that a majority do not match at all when they come from lower tiered schools like AUA, MUA and SMU? I know AUA says 50% - but a lot are transfers from AUC and Ross

I'm still on the fence about AUA, and truthfully know very little about the school. I rotated with about 10 AUA students in my family medicine clerkship and they were all excellent students and very friendly, so I think the quality of the education is there. I can't really speak to their Step pass rates, I only seriously considered Ross and SGU. As you mentioned, they do accept students that have failed out of the larger programs, so that may be an influence, but I can't imagine that that would account for more than 10 or so per class. Talking with some of the students, it sounds like they have a difficult time securing good clerkships in MS3 and MS4, which I'm sure really hurts their ability to Match. They're competing in NYC with SGU and Ross students, and their name just doesn't have the same recognition or, let's face it, the money backing them that SGU and Ross have.

I agree that for any school besides SGU, Ross, Saba, or AUC, you have a very good chance of not Matching at all.

 

[W19]

I'm guessing the 274 is true. There also may be a few people who declined sending in the form notifying AUA of where they placed and a few positions accepted outside of the match.

How many students they accept every year?

 

[jakeislove]

How many students they accept every year?

No idea. I've never felt a need to keep track of stuff like that.

 

[W19]

No idea. I've never felt a need to keep track of stuff like that.

I should have asked you how many students were in your class when you started... For some reason, I keep thinking these carib schools operate like US schools i.e you can find info regarding these stuff on their websites.

 

[jakeislove]

I should have asked you how many students were in your class when you started... For some reason, I keep thinking these carib schools operate like US schools i.e you can find info regarding these stuff on their websites.

I don't recall.

AUA is taking steps to improve its Step passing rates.

I'm still of a mind that beginning in the Caribbean now is too risky. The combined match, growing animosity many US medical students/residents have towards us, new DO schools every year, and decreased availability of training things probably will get much worse before there's any positive change.

 

[Skip Intro]

For some reason, I keep thinking these carib schools operate like US schools i.e you can find info regarding these stuff on their websites.

They don't and you can't, but they should!

-Skip

 

[maygog]

I should have asked you how many students were in your class when you started... For some reason, I keep thinking these carib schools operate like US schools i.e you can find info regarding these stuff on their websites.

Caribbean schools are known to post false info/misleading info on their websites. To a less extent, SGU, AUC and Ross are the pick of the Caribbean schools that are the most trustworthy.

The bottom tiered schools...well lets just say their info on their websites are sketchy at best. For instance, AUA claims to have graduates practicing in all 50 states and is CAAM accredited. But in Wikipedia it states:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_University_of_Antigua

"AUA students are recognized by the Department of Education, as well as medical boards, for clinical training, residency, and licensure in New York and California. State medical board recognition from these 2 states entitles graduates to practice medicine and apply for residency in all 50 states, thus making AUA one of only 5 Caribbean medical schools that currently have such recognition. As of October 23rd, 2014, AUA is recognized by the Florida Department of Education and students can now complete clinical clerkships throughout the entire state.
AUA is provisionally accredited by the Caribbean Authority for Education in Medicine and other Health Professions (CAAM-HP)."

Notice the lack of commitment in ensuring graduate placement in all 50 states - AUA students can only apply - doesn't mean anything in terms of securing residencies.

Also the florida dept of education recognition is shady - AUA students can only complete clerkships at best - no assurance of residency placements.

And if you see CAAM accreditation, AUA is provisionally accredited - No guarantees there.

Also, no where does AUA provide substantial evidence of secure loans like the big 3 schools.

 

[W19]

@maygog... So they don't have to abide by the 'student right-to-know act' even if they are receiving a lot US dollars, and some of them have access to federal student loan.

 

[jakeislove]

Arguing over wiki is a poor use of time.

 

[maygog]

@maygog... So they don't have to abide by the 'student right-to-know act' even if they are receiving a lot US dollars, and some of them have access to federal student loan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_University_of_Antigua

Info presented here is cited and is credible. So I would trust wiki in this sense more than AUA's website.

"AUA was founded by Neal S. Simon,[2] a lawyer and former president of Ross University, with its first class instruction beginning in 2004.[3] In 2009, it was purchased by Manipal Group, one of the top 10 medical colleges in India.[4][5] The same year, AUA opened the College of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences. It accepted its first students into the program in January 2010 with all students transferred to the St. George's University School of Veterinary Medicine in 2011 after the program's closure.[6] The school suspended its nursing program in August 2011, ending its admissions for new nursing students.[7] Nursing students who finished the current program were allowed licensure in the state of New York by the New York State Education Department."

"AUA is one of the select international medical schools whose students are eligible for over 12 weeks of clerkships in New York, and whose graduates are eligible for the 20% of residency training positions located there."

I don't know if AUA follows or abides by any US Laws. If you can read, it says AUA was opened in 2004 and was purchased by manipal in 2009. AUA had no problems between 2004-2009. Interestingly, once Manipal purchased AUA, their nursing school faced numerous legal problems, numerous law suits were filed against AUA medical program by students (Google search lawsuits filed against AUA) and AUA medical program has been redflagged by NBME and kaplan due to rampant cheating not to mention US States and Loan lenders cutting ties with the school.

So, I don't believe the problem is with AUA - their president and provost (Neil Simon and Schwarz) are quite distinguishable. I believe the slander and false info is due to Manipal.

 

[Skip Intro]

maygog,

It appears to me (and likely to others) that you seem to simply have a bone to pick with Manipal. The facts about nursing school and the vet school are irrelevant to this discussion. Your other seeming assertion that there is conspiracy to withhold the truth from students based on what's posted on Wikipedia is just... not how I read it. It also seems like you are, I don't know, expecting them to be more forthcoming about info that you think is relevant. They are just not compelled to do that. Having said all of that, you haven't really pointed out any place where they have actually lied, as you seem to continue to try to state and make that case

There are no promises or guarantees at any Caribbean school. Potential students should weigh all the info before making the choice to go to any of them, AUA included.

-Skip

 

[Merideth Grey]

Hey guys. I just applied to AUA, and my GPA was pretty good until I recently got a C in physics. I'm not sure how good my chances are of getting on now, does anyone have any extra info on how this all works? Please let me know if you do!

 

[Skip Intro]

Hey guys. I just applied to AUA, and my GPA was pretty good until I recently got a C in physics. I'm not sure how good my chances are of getting on now, does anyone have any extra info on how this all works? Please let me know if you do!

Start here:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...what-are-my-chances-thread-read-this.1086829/

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/what-category-are-you-in.1078237/

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...attending-a-caribbean-medical-school.1093828/

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/why-is-the-caribbean-is-a-good-decision.1082017/