Atlanta mass shooter's family blames his actions on psychiatrists' refusal to rx benzos.

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In the philosophy of psychiatry literature Hana Pickard has a paper about responsibility without blame. She points out that we don't want to put moral opprobrium on people dealing with addiction, but to say there is not a strong element of choice is very strange, since if addicts genuinely could not choose not to use, none of our current treatment models are coherent. They are all predicated on the idea of the person in question having the ability to do otherwise. The trick comes in reconciling that with the fact that moral philosophy tends to say that people are blameworthy to the extent that they do things that are bad when they could have done otherwise. She takes a decent stab at reconciling this with the intuition that substance abuse in and of itself does not make someone a bad person and blame seems to be counterproductive. It is an interesting needle to thread but I think the dilemma is inescapable.
Self-blame also would tend to significantly increase the desire to use as does resentment/anger (at the people who are blaming/shaming you) it's a vicious cycle.

I do like the 'may not be your 'fault'' but it is your 'responsibility' (to stay sober).

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In the philosophy of psychiatry literature Hana Pickard has a paper about responsibility without blame. She points out that we don't want to put moral opprobrium on people dealing with addiction, but to say there is not a strong element of choice is very strange, since if addicts genuinely could not choose not to use, none of our current treatment models are coherent. They are all predicated on the idea of the person in question having the ability to do otherwise. The trick comes in reconciling that with the fact that moral philosophy tends to say that people are blameworthy to the extent that they do things that are bad when they could have done otherwise. She takes a decent stab at reconciling this with the intuition that substance abuse in and of itself does not make someone a bad person and blame seems to be counterproductive. It is an interesting needle to thread but I think the dilemma is inescapable.

I will definitely have to try and source that paper for my own reading interests, thanks for mentioning it. I will have a more coherent response to this at a later point as well (like when it's not 7 am and I haven't slept yet :thumbup:)
 
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Just writing to agree that it can be tough to walk the line between blame/responsibility, but found that discussing the dimension of "choice" definitely helps with patients that have gone through the sober->relapse cycle several times and know the game. These folks tend to know what it takes to stay in recovery, and the "choice" talk really gets them going.
 
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In the philosophy of psychiatry literature Hana Pickard has a paper about responsibility without blame. She points out that we don't want to put moral opprobrium on people dealing with addiction, but to say there is not a strong element of choice is very strange, since if addicts genuinely could not choose not to use, none of our current treatment models are coherent. They are all predicated on the idea of the person in question having the ability to do otherwise. The trick comes in reconciling that with the fact that moral philosophy tends to say that people are blameworthy to the extent that they do things that are bad when they could have done otherwise. She takes a decent stab at reconciling this with the intuition that substance abuse in and of itself does not make someone a bad person and blame seems to be counterproductive. It is an interesting needle to thread but I think the dilemma is inescapable.

Self-blame also would tend to significantly increase the desire to use as does resentment/anger (at the people who are blaming/shaming you) it's a vicious cycle.

I do like the 'may not be your 'fault'' but it is your 'responsibility' (to stay sober).

Just writing to agree that it can be tough to walk the line between blame/responsibility, but found that discussing the dimension of "choice" definitely helps with patients that have gone through the sober->relapse cycle several times and know the game. These folks tend to know what it takes to stay in recovery, and the "choice" talk really gets them going.

When I talk about ideas like personal responsibility and choice in addiction, from a lived experience point of view, I'm obviously not talking about the reductive "just pull yourself up by your boot straps and get over it" ideas that some less educated, or experienced folks tend to gravitate towards. Part of my recovery was finally being willing to face up to, confront, and breakdown the emotional and mental constructs I had created that kept me in active addiction, and that wasn't something that just happened overnight.

I actually spent most of my years as a heroin addict going from one treatment attempt/program to the next, trying to not be a junkie, and failing miserably for a number of reasons. The obvious one being the sheer intensity of psychology cravings I experienced on heroin, seriously unlike anything I'd ever experienced with any other drug. Another reason was the fact that I wasn't just addicted to the drug itself, I was addicted to almost everything surrounding its use as well: the anticipation of going to score, the ritualistic aspect of mixing up a shot, the rush of the needle itself, all of it became a form of compulsion to me. And if I'm perfectly honest the fact that I continuously kept "consciously subconsciously" sabotaging my recovery attempts really didn't help either (you know, the good old, "That's it, I'm seriously done with all of this, I'm gonna go cold turkey and get my life back...but first let me go on absolute bender just to say goodbye properly", or getting through cold turkey and then almost immediately going, "Great, I've done it! Now if I make sure to stick to special occasions only, just allow myself a small treat every now and then I'll be good to go; let me just call my dealer").

Lastly a fairly big obstacle for me in successfully recovering from addiction was the way society in general, and in many cases the way the medical profession viewed and treated me as someone not deemed worthy of an identity beyond 'just another junkie'. I'm not trying to palm off any of my own responsibility in active addiction onto anyone else, but the more you feel judged as being 'not worthy of help'or 'not worth the effort', the lower you sink emotionally until you reach a point where you do start to think, "What's the point, I contribute nothing of value to society, so why bother? Let me just accept that I'm not worth saving & make peace with knowing that my addiction is going to kill me at some point." Obviously I don't mean that it's as easy as 'be nice to junkies' and somehow we'll just miraculously recover through the power of positive vibes, but at the same time treating an addict as if they still have some value beyond their addiction can be an important aspect that makes the difference between someone giving up completely, and someone having that moment of clarity that makes them say, "No ,I will face this and I will give treatment another chance."
 
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I will definitely have to try and source that paper for my own reading interests, thanks for mentioning it. I will have a more coherent response to this at a later point as well (like when it's not 7 am and I haven't slept yet :thumbup:)

She initially developed this approach re: personality disorders, which is here but gated: Project MUSE - Responsibility Without Blame: Empathy and the Effective Treatment of Personality Disorder

Here is more recent application to addiction that is open access: Responsibility without Blame for Addiction - Neuroethics
 
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She initially developed this approach re: personality disorders, which is here but gated: Project MUSE - Responsibility Without Blame: Empathy and the Effective Treatment of Personality Disorder

Here is more recent application to addiction that is open access: Responsibility without Blame for Addiction - Neuroethics
Therapist: "Raise your left hand"
Client: {raises left hand}
Therapist: "Raise your right hand"
Client: {raises right hand}
Therapist: "Now close your eyes"
Client: {closes eyes}
Therapist: "Please smile"
Client: {smiles}
Therapist: "Good. We've established that you have the ability to control your motor behavior...at least to some degree voluntarily. Now it's just a matter of us collaboratively exploring the extent, duration, and malleability of that phenomenon over time. You game?"

Edit: Of course I've never done the above script with a client in therapy. It's just to illustrate a point. Motivational interviewing is more effective.

This is why, as a therapist, I cringe at certain statements/beliefs (such as 'it's an illness...I have no control over it,' or 'I'm self-medicating,' or any focus on diagnosis being destiny). It pretty much ends the therapeutic endeavor. I forget the term momentarily but there are thoughts that we can have that basically enable maladaptive behavior (e.g., someone with severe alcohol addiction allowing themselves to use because of the thought 'just one drink won't hurt me,' or a person with a severe anxiety disorder having the thought, 'I can't stand how I feel right now, I have to escape this feeling,').

This is not to over-simplify the task of recovery from addiction or mental health problems. It ain't simple. But you know what is simple? The fact that if you just give in to the idea that you have no ability (at all) to influence your behavior in the future, you simply won't. Of course there are complexities/paradoxes, and so on ('Let go and let God...surrender...abandoning control to get control') but these are shifts in frame of reference.
 
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Therapist: "Raise your left hand"
Client: {raises left hand}
Therapist: "Raise your right hand"
Client: {raises right hand}
Therapist: "Now close your eyes"
Client: {closes eyes}
Therapist: "Please smile"
Client: {smiles}
Therapist: "Good. We've established that you have the ability to control your motor behavior...at least to some degree voluntarily. Now it's just a matter of us collaboratively exploring the extent, duration, and malleability of that phenomenon over time. You game?"

Edit: Of course I've never done the above script with a client in therapy. It's just to illustrate a point. Motivational interviewing is more effective.

This is why, as a therapist, I cringe at certain statements/beliefs (such as 'it's an illness...I have no control over it,' or 'I'm self-medicating,' or any focus on diagnosis being destiny). It pretty much ends the therapeutic endeavor. I forget the term momentarily but there are thoughts that we can have that basically enable maladaptive behavior (e.g., someone with severe alcohol addiction allowing themselves to use because of the thought 'just one drink won't hurt me,' or a person with a severe anxiety disorder having the thought, 'I can't stand how I feel right now, I have to escape this feeling,').

This is not to over-simplify the task of recovery from addiction or mental health problems. It ain't simple. But you know what is simple? The fact that if you just give in to the idea that you have no ability (at all) to influence your behavior in the future, you simply won't. Of course there are complexities/paradoxes, and so on ('Let go and let God...surrender...abandoning control to get control') but these are shifts in frame of reference.

Preach! :clap: I seriously cannot abide by the notion that someone is completely powerless in the face of addiction, like okay so then what if you at least started working on taking some of the addiction's power back for yourself? Do you think you'll suddenly be attacked by a bunch of flying needles? Is your drug of addiction suddenly going to turn into Godzilla and start terrorising the city? Of course not, so yeah you're not completely powerless in the face of addiction. Even if it feels like you have no power or control over an addiction, how is it anyway helpful to then go ahead and basically hand all your power over to you substance of choice? "Dear heroin, I feel like I have no power or control over you, so clearly the best course of action for me is to convince myself I am utterly powerless, hand all my power over to you, and proceed to just flop about helplessly at your feet" Yeah, no.
 
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Preach! :clap: I seriously cannot abide by the notion that someone is completely powerless in the face of addiction, like okay so then what if you at least started working on taking some of the addiction's power back for yourself? Do you think you'll suddenly be attacked by a bunch of flying needles? Is your drug of addiction suddenly going to turn into Godzilla and start terrorising the city? Of course not, so yeah you're not completely powerless in the face of addiction. Even if it feels like you have no power or control over an addiction, how is it anyway helpful to then go ahead and basically hand all your power over to you substance of choice? "Dear heroin, I feel like I have no power or control over you, so clearly the best course of action for me is to convince myself I am utterly powerless, hand all my power over to you, and proceed to just flop about helplessly at your feet" Yeah, no.
LOL. Love (compassion) + Truth is a powerful combination...just gotta not leave out the love part.
 
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I think the Learning Disorder model works quite well. People with pathological addiction should try to develop strategies to overcome their inherent susceptibility to substance abuse. Doesn't matter what caused them to be susceptible or why they are susceptible. They are not to blame, they are in many cases a case of luck or happenstance, but given their vulnerability, they are solely responsible for buttressing themselves from their vulnerabilities. Even their external locus of control can be formulated as disordered learning if you'd like to go there, and that was also likely out of their control entirely (mom/dad taught them that, social media taught them that, traumatic life experiences taught them that, etc).

To me it's a lot like people who are born in tornado prone areas. They didn't choose to be born there, they don't control the weather, and they certainly didn't tell pangea to rift the way it did, placing MS exactly in tornado alley... But they better well either have a storm cellar, or move. If they don't have either, then we need to find out why... If it's for socioeconomic reasons, let's help. It it's because they don't want protection, don't believe in tornadoes, or they in fact like tornadoes, or don't believe that it's possible to build a storm cellar or move, then psychotherapy has some work to do (helping people understand that they have agency) or they're just not going to change regardless of how we attempt to facilitate change.
 
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I want to see scientific comments on how use disorders are in fact "choices". Lots of opinions being thrown out here by non-medical folks which could be misleading for people looking for infomartion about this regard in a medical forum.

We have to focus our energy in seeing use disorders as diseases and use evidence based approaches to treat it (not opinions or personal experiences because that is the lowest level of evidence).
 
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I want to see scientific comments on how use disorders are in fact "choices". Lots of opinions being thrown out here by non-medical folks which could be misleading for people looking for infomartion about this regard in a medical forum.

We have to focus our energy in seeing use disorders as diseases and use evidence based approaches to treat it (not opinions or personal experiences because that is the lowest level of evidence).

Evidence is good - I am not exceptionally brilliant but I get that. There are other considerations, still, and some of the obove posters make very good points.

If you apply the disease/ medical model to a behavior, what are the implications for free will philosophically? What are the implications for psychotherapy?

I think the above posters answer the question well. Responsibility and only passing consideration for blame.
 
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I really hate the premise that addiction is a choice. Of course it is, but knowledge of the addiction circuit would tell you that choice is not a rational one. Folks don't choose addiction any more than they choose depression.
 
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I really hate the premise that addiction is a choice. Of course it is, but knowledge of the addiction circuit would tell you that choice is not a rational one. Folks don't choose addiction any more than they choose depression.

There is a sense in which we, humans, do choose depression. Is it not easier to assume the sick role?

If it is only a physiological problem, then whence psychotherapy?
 
I really hate the premise that addiction is a choice. Of course it is, but knowledge of the addiction circuit would tell you that choice is not a rational one. Folks don't choose addiction any more than they choose depression.
I don't think anyone is saying 'addiction is a choice.' Whatever that phrase could possibly mean.

Obviously, genetics play a powerful role. We do not 'choose' our genetics.

Obviously, after drinking more than a fifth of Jack Daniels a day for two years, just up and 'quitting one day' isn't the same thing (and is medically dangerous) than 'catching' yourself after you have one beer at a party after 20 years of sobriety and calling your sponsor/friend or whoever and trying to avoid a full relapse into daily drinking.

Obviously, substance use 'disorder' is a disorder because it is, at heart, irrational. People are doing grievous harm to themselves, their families, their lives through continued use in the face of extremely negative consequences. Any person (let alone mental health professional) who just blithely says that it's 'a choice' and the person 'did it to themselves' is an idiot.

But the opposite position is equally (if not more) idiotic.

I don't believe than anyone with more than three brain cells believes either extreme position. Let's stop tilting at straw men or talking past one another.

The 'disease' model of addiction--to an extent--has important and meaningful things to say about how to get and to stay sober. For one thing, if genetics play a powerful role then respect the fact that if 50% of your first degree relatives drank themselves to death by age 55...you just might want to pay attention to that fact. Also, tolerance and withdrawal are real. Respect that fact as well and build a detox/recovery plan around those realities. Almost everyone who begins their fight with serious addiction also seriously underestimates the difficulty of the task (changing their behavior around drug/alcohol use). Take that into account as well.

But...as you're taking all of those things into account...also understand that drug/alcohol use is a behavior and as a behavior it is also under the control of its consequences. And it can be changed. People have recovered. There is hope. It may be fair to say that it is a progressive illness that leads inevitably to physical/mental/spiritual/social deterioration until death/insanity IF you keep using at the level or greater than you have in the past (for some people) but change is possible.
 
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Sure, but equating choice of substance use with choosing to live in a disaster-prone area is reductive in both cases and really veers away from the humanistic influences.
 
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So just to make this blatantly clear, and not to unintentionally mislead anyone who is new to these forums, I am not a healthcare professional of any description. I came here around 15 years ago with the intent of going into post grad medicine studies, that didn't eventuate, I decided to stick around because I met some really great people, who I enjoy interacting with. Consider anything I post to be an opinion only, not actual advice gleaned from proper medical training or studies.
 
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I want to see scientific comments on how use disorders are in fact "choices". Lots of opinions being thrown out here by non-medical folks which could be misleading for people looking for infomartion about this regard in a medical forum.

We have to focus our energy in seeing use disorders as diseases and use evidence based approaches to treat it (not opinions or personal experiences because that is the lowest level of evidence).
Agreed about more evidence needed. Recovery from addiction was an aspect of my own research area. Unfortunately, my take on it all, and this was like 20 years ago, is that agendas, poor research design and biases overwhelm the science in that area. Some of that is because it is a complex culturally imbedded phenomena that is impossible to study outside of that context and that when we try isolate and crunch the numbers in a systematic way, we don’t get much out of it since it tends to all wash out. My favorite research is the ones that have looked at mandatory vs. voluntary treatment and seem no difference in outcome. We also have research showing that severity or longevity of use doesn’t predict response to treatment either. Anecdotally, I get why that is having many years of experience in this area.

The other aspect that I will say about medical treatments is that if we give someone a controlled substance that is controlled by someone else that will improve some aspects of the outcome, but from the research in methadone in the past, there was evidence that quality of life measures didn’t improve much over the longer term. Most of this is from memory as I spend most of my time focused on what is paying the bills right now and don’t have time to delve into the newer research on something like suboxone, although I just got a patient who is on that currently so will have to look into that a little more.
 
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Agreed about more evidence needed. Recovery from addiction was an aspect of my own research area. Unfortunately, my take on it all, and this was like 20 years ago, is that agendas, poor research design and biases overwhelm the science in that area. Some of that is because it is a complex culturally imbedded phenomena that is impossible to study outside of that context and that when we try isolate and crunch the numbers in a systematic way, we don’t get much out of it since it tends to all wash out. My favorite research is the ones that have looked at mandatory vs. voluntary treatment and seem no difference in outcome. We also have research showing that severity or longevity of use doesn’t predict response to treatment either. Anecdotally, I get why that is having many years of experience in this area.

The other aspect that I will say about medical treatments is that if we give someone a controlled substance that is controlled by someone else that will improve some aspects of the outcome, but from the research in methadone in the past, there was evidence that quality of life measures didn’t improve much over the longer term. Most of this is from memory as I spend most of my time focused on what is paying the bills right now and don’t have time to delve into the newer research on something like suboxone, although I just got a patient who is on that currently so will have to look into that a little more.

Are there any good (and accessible) studies on the efficacy of different approaches to methadone treatment? For example time limited methadone use in conjunction with therapy vs long term methadone replacement treatment?
 
Evidence is good - I am not exceptionally brilliant but I get that. There are other considerations, still, and some of the obove posters make very good points.

If you apply the disease/ medical model to a behavior, what are the implications for free will philosophically? What are the implications for psychotherapy?

I think the above posters answer the question well. Responsibility and only passing consideration for blame.

This discussion about blame/choice is analogous to the discussion about whether free will exists, which has existed for time immemorial.

“Many scientists say that the American physiologist Benjamin Libet demonstrated in the 1980s that we have no free will. It was already known that electrical activity builds up in a person’s brain before she, for example, moves her hand; Libet showed that this buildup occurs before the person consciously makes a decision to move. The conscious experience of deciding to act, which we usually associate with free will, appears to be an add-on, a post hoc reconstruction of events that occurs after the brain has already set the act in motion.

The 20th-century nature-nurture debate prepared us to think of ourselves as shaped by influences beyond our control. But it left some room, at least in the popular imagination, for the possibility that we could overcome our circumstances or our genes to become the author of our own destiny. The challenge posed by neuroscience is more radical: It describes the brain as a physical system like any other, and suggests that we no more will it to operate in a particular way than we will our heart to beat. The contemporary scientific image of human behavior is one of neurons firing, causing other neurons to fire, causing our thoughts and deeds, in an unbroken chain that stretches back to our birth and beyond. In principle, we are therefore completely predictable. If we could understand any individual’s brain architecture and chemistry well enough, we could, in theory, predict that individual’s response to any given stimulus with 100 percent accuracy.

It seems that when people stop believing they are free agents, they stop seeing themselves as blameworthy for their actions. Consequently, they act less responsibly and give in to their baser instincts. Vohs emphasized that this result is not limited to the contrived conditions of a lab experiment. “You see the same effects with people who naturally believe more or less in free will,” she said.

Smilansky is convinced that free will does not exist in the traditional sense—and that it would be very bad if most people realized this.

Smilansky’s arguments may sound odd at first, given his contention that the world is devoid of free will: If we are not really deciding anything, who cares what information is let loose? But new information, of course, is a sensory input like any other; it can change our behavior, even if we are not the conscious agents of that change. In the language of cause and effect, a belief in free will may not inspire us to make the best of ourselves, but it does stimulate us to do so.”

 
Are there any good (and accessible) studies on the efficacy of different approaches to methadone treatment? For example time limited methadone use in conjunction with therapy vs long term methadone replacement treatment?
Not that I know of. It is hard to find that type of research and when it exists it tends to be more naturalistic and less controlled so difficult to draw conclusions. Research is skewed to the short term, easy to control type of studies which is also where opiate replacement therapy would tend to have the edge in efficacy. Recovery from substances is a longer more variable process. Too often in our field we equate difficult to study with it doesn’t exist or it doesn’t work. My own research was conducted with community based 12 step recovery programs and how they are not understood well by professionals and partially for that reason of being very difficult to study and impossible to do in a controlled fashion.
 
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