Army bull$h*t

[masteropuppets]

Army brat who matched in Anesthesia at NCC-WRAMC...and am VERY pissed about it.

I wrote a letter asking for a deferment so that I can go to Duke, Penn, MGH, B&W, UCSF, or Hopkins...all of whom I have interviewed with. I talked to many students and residents who just avoided ADTs and interviews and were rewarded with deferments...total Army bull$*it.

I wanted to do things right, i.e. see the Army programs and compare/contrast with civilian programs in the area of anesthesia I am most interested in (CT,transplant,hyperbaric). In these areas, specifically transplant, the Army doesn't even compare; e.g. over 1000 cardiac cases and over 1000 lung transplants at Duke per year, with TEE training and certification (in residency)!! While the Army doesn't do heart/lung transplants and has only ~100-200 cardiac cases/yr. I guess I was punished for doing things right.

I even told the crew at BAMC and WRAMC that I wanted a deferment, but they must be desperate to get people who they are confident will get 90+% on the ABA.

I'll submit a rebuttal board request, so anyone want anesthesia at NCC? They can have it

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[bogatyr]

They can't make you do your residency there. Do your payback as a GMO then go to Duke.

 

[Mirror Form]

I don't see why you're so surprised that you didn't get a deferrment. Most people in the Army who ask for them do not get them. I know a few people who didn't interview or rotate anywhere but still didn't get deferrments. One of my friends had to be split up from his family last year b/c he wasn't given a deferrment. The kicker is that the program who took him rejected another strong applicant from USUHS who actually really wanted to go to their program, but now must do a GMO (and be split up from his family). So things could be a lot worse. You should be happy that you got walter reed instead of el-paso.

 

[masteropuppets]

I don't see why you're so surprised that you didn't get a deferrment. It was a long shot to even ask for one. Do you really expect the anesthesia department to accept a sub-par applicant so that you can go to duke? Just be glad that you're at walter reed instead of el-paso.

That's true. I would be very happy with NCC...IF I didn't know that MANY HPSP'ers just avoided ALL contact with ALL Army anesthesia and transitional programs and yet received deferments. A couple of these dudes are EXCELLENT candidates.

Doesn't it seem bassackwards that those who do things in a deceitful fashion receive what they want?

 

[Mirror Form]

That's true. I would be very happy with NCC...IF I didn't know that MANY HPSP'ers just avoided ALL contact with ALL Army anesthesia and transitional programs and yet received deferments. A couple of these dudes are EXCELLENT candidates.

Does'nt it seem bassackwards that those who do things in a deceitful fashion receive what they want?

damnit, you're not supposed to quote me before I'm finished editing my post!

But yeah, I guess if you know others who were given deferrments w/o rotating, that would be pretty annoying.

 

[masteropuppets]

They can't make you do your residency there. Do your payback as a GMO then go to Duke.

I dunno if being a GMO in OIF/OEF or anywhere without my family is worth going to Duke or B&W...even if these places are head and shoulders above the Army programs

I joined because I love my country and wanted to serve, NOT for money...but I feel screwed

 

[militarymd]

I dunno if being a GMO in OIF/OEF or anywhere without my family is worth going to Duke or B&W...even if these places are head and shoulders above the Army programs

I joined because I love my country and wanted to serve, NOT for money...but I feel screwed

Bend over, lube up, and prepare for more....that's the military....

 

[s42brown]

Bend over, lube up, and prepare for more....that's the military....

It has to SUCK to be you


I understand your frustration, I know people who played that ADT dodge ball game and won. However, you waited until match day to be pissed. The Army only grants deferments in the case you don't match. This is why you can't rank a deferment. We're not the Air Force. I mean what did you expect; the Army doesn't need their gas men to be highly trained in transplants. If you are the stellar applicant that it sounds like you are, you're damn right you’re going to match into an Army program.

I'm sorry I miss the part of this story where the Army screwed you

Good luck to you

 

[masteropuppets]

Bend over, lube up, and prepare for more....that's the military....

huh-huh, I knew this much when I took the oath

 

[masteropuppets]

It has to SUCK to be you


I understand your frustration, I know people who played that ADT dodge ball game and won. However, you waited until match day to be pissed. The Army only grants deferments in the case you don't match. This is why you can't rank a deferment. We're not the Air Force. I mean what did you expect; the Army doesn't need their gas men to be highly trained in transplants. If you are the stellar applicant that it sounds like you are, you're damn right you’re going to match into an Army program.

I'm sorry I miss the part of this story where the Army screwed you

Good luck to you

Listen here junior 2LT boy, I don't like your tone...

 

[masteropuppets]

It has to SUCK to be you


I understand your frustration, I know people who played that ADT dodge ball game and won. However, you waited until match day to be pissed. The Army only grants deferments in the case you don't match. This is why you can't rank a deferment. We're not the Air Force. I mean what did you expect; the Army doesn't need their gas men to be highly trained in transplants. If you are the stellar applicant that it sounds like you are, you're damn right you’re going to match into an Army program.

I'm sorry I miss the part of this story where the Army screwed you

Good luck to you

transplants are just the TIP of the iceberg. Duke, Hopkins, Penn, etc. are all also much better at trauma and ICU care.

 

[masteropuppets]

It has to SUCK to be you


I understand your frustration, I know people who played that ADT dodge ball game and won. However, you waited until match day to be pissed. The Army only grants deferments in the case you don't match. This is why you can't rank a deferment. We're not the Air Force. I mean what did you expect; the Army doesn't need their gas men to be highly trained in transplants. If you are the stellar applicant that it sounds like you are, you're damn right you’re going to match into an Army program.

I'm sorry I miss the part of this story where the Army screwed you

Good luck to you

If a civilian program can train someone MUCH better than the Army, then I don't see why they wouldn't just defer them; since the real meat of their payback is when they can actually use them...i.e. when they are attendings and fully trained.

 

[masteropuppets]

It has to SUCK to be you


I understand your frustration, I know people who played that ADT dodge ball game and won. However, you waited until match day to be pissed. The Army only grants deferments in the case you don't match. This is why you can't rank a deferment. We're not the Air Force. I mean what did you expect; the Army doesn't need their gas men to be highly trained in transplants. If you are the stellar applicant that it sounds like you are, you're damn right you’re going to match into an Army program.

I'm sorry I miss the part of this story where the Army screwed you

Good luck to you

Again, I should have just lied, cheated, or hid like a b*tch. It won't matter, it will just motivate me to study MUCH harder.

 

[pgg]

I dunno if being a GMO in OIF/OEF or anywhere without my family is worth going to Duke or B&W...even if these places are head and shoulders above the Army programs

I joined because I love my country and wanted to serve, NOT for money...but I feel screwed

I recognize that you're venting and not looking for a way to scam out of your obligation. So don't take this as a flame -

But what did you expect? Of course the Army wants the best applicants it can get in its programs. Of course they don't hand out a lot of deferrals to people (they never do), and the ones the do give out are for the weaker applicants. Of course they have operational needs that require a certain number of GMOs. It's the Army. Everyone who accepts an HPSP scholarship has to know that the military will get first dibs on their services as interns and residents.

You didn't deserve a deferral because you're a stellar applicant. The Army deserves your services as a resident and attending because they get to choose which of the med students they funded they want. Of course they're not going to invest all that money and let the best ones go.

You said you love your country and want to serve. Guess where many of the most seriously wounded soldiers in Iraq are going for surgery and rehab? There is no better way for a doctor to serve than to take care of a soldier, sailor, Marine, or airman who was wounded in the line of duty.

The people you know who lied, cheated or hid like bitches to game the system and weasel out of part of their obligation are liars, cheaters, and bitches. They deserve your contempt, not your envy.

 

[island doc]

Bend over, lube up, and prepare for more....that's the military....

Prepare for more proctalgia.

 

[USAFdoc]

Army brat who matched in Anesthesia at NCC-WRAMC...and am VERY pissed about it.

I wrote a letter asking for a deferment so that I can go to Duke, Penn, MGH, B&W, UCSF, or Hopkins...all of whom I have interviewed with. I talked to many students and residents who just avoided ADTs and interviews and were rewarded with deferments...total Army bull$*it.

I wanted to do things right, i.e. see the Army programs and compare/contrast with civilian programs in the area of anesthesia I am most interested in (CT,transplant,hyperbaric). In these areas, specifically transplant, the Army doesn't even compare; e.g. over 1000 cardiac cases and over 1000 lung transplants at Duke per year, with TEE training and certification (in residency)!! While the Army doesn't do heart/lung transplants and has only ~100-200 cardiac cases/yr. I guess I was punished for doing things right.

I even told the crew at BAMC and WRAMC that I wanted a deferment, but they must be desperate to get people who they are confident will get 90+% on the ABA.

I'll submit a rebuttal board request, so anyone want anesthesia at NCC? They can have it

I feel your pain..................I separated from the worst 3 years of my professional life this past summer ("deployed" to a USAF stateside primary care clinic). When you and I joined the US Military health care system,we took the gamble that having some financial freedom and other things would be worth the loss of other freedoms. Let me tell you that I gambled and lost. The USAF was the worst organization (at least primary care) that I had ever seen and they ran a clinic with reckless abandon and treated their staff like fresh boots at bootcamp. Looks like you gambled and lost your "first hand" at military health care poker too. Get ready cause they will likely try to take you for everything they can, they will cheat, lie, and change the rules midstream, .......do your time, cause you committed the crime (gambled with the US military healthcare admin), and look forward to DOS.

 

[Capt_Mac]

transplants are just the TIP of the iceberg. Duke, Hopkins, Penn, etc. are all also much better at trauma and ICU care.

Master -- This is absolutely, dead, WRONG! You will learn that most of residency is mentorship and learning from the experience of others and seeing as how a majority of the Army anesthesiologist and surgeons now have at least 2 OIF rotations under their belts, there is no other group of docs with more ICU and trauma experience. I know this for a fact as my research right now is directed at reviewing the case loads and casualties seen by the two CSH's that were in Baghdad. The people comming back from Iraq have more experience with jacked up, seriously sick penetrating trauma and mass casualties than anyone else in the US. Period!

These guys see more sick and messed up people in one week than you will see in 6 months at any hospital (inluding USC/ Maryland Shock/ Ben Taub).

For an example: Maryland Shock Trauma (busiest trauma center in the US) gives about 70-80 doses of recombinant 7a in 2.5 years. The CSH's in Iraq are giving the stuff in the ER!

You will soon learn that name is not everything. You will get a great education at NCC and frankly it will be what you make of it. If you try to learn from the mentors there and absorb their experience and knowledge you will be able to help save some soldiers' lives and help them get back to their families after they take one for the team. If you CHOOSE to let yourself be screwed, pissed off and dejected because you think it is unfair, then you are only screwing yourself.

When the next OIF comes around and it is our turn to go and take care of soldiers, you will have a big advantage over the guys that thought they were getting ahead of the game. When you are covering the ICU in Ibn Sina (Baghdad) and your patient has received his 200th unit of blood in 48 hours, you will be able to draw on the experience of those who have actually been there and done that!

I know it sucks and is tough to see others "getting ahead", but you are very fortunate to have the staff you do. I have a great deal of respect for our anesthesiologists at BAMC. I am a resident, but, I consider some of them to be friends.

Or you can choose to drink the "Islanddoc and USAFdoc Koolaid" and think that the sky is falling.

 

[masteropuppets]

Mac- I realize the benefits of the Army programs, especially with mass casuality trauma, blast injuries, burns, etc. But, when I am done with my Army service (as you will be someday), I want to be a CT/transplant anesthesiologist. These civilian programs make the Army look like kindergarten in these areas. I realize that I will be well trained at NCC, but believe it or not, not everyone cares about trauma. Those are the jobs that pay the least and are the WORST hours in the civilian sector. Everyone, even you, will someday like a job where we can be home early and enjoy family, since we will have worked harder in our careers than 90% of people out there.

The point is, there is easily a way to coordinate a residents' future aspirations with Army needs...but the Army only gives those opportunities to those students who avoid all contact. The Army could create a better learning environment, make their programs MUCH more appealing, and improve their ABA scores if they made their programs more "well-rounded". I've discussed this with 2 program directors who are also on the training accreditation council. They acknowledge that when they looked at the Army programs, this was a huge area that is in need of improvement.

 

[Trajan]

Listen to what the last guy said. Do your time in the Army and then take a civilian fellowship when you're done if you still want to do CT.

 

[bustbones26]

huh-huh, I knew this much when I took the oath

Then what are you complaining about? I am not sying that I do not sympathize with your situation but the one thing people need to learn is this, HPSP exist so that the army can fill their needs. They temp candidates with the full ride on tuition but really its their needs that must be met, we all know this.

Also, I do see your point about going to other programs, but consider this, lets say that you did go to Duke and do all of the fancy things there that they do not do at NCC? At the risk of sounding cold, why bother? Even if they give you a deferment, you are going to be an attending at an MTF at some point, and all of those fancy schmancy things you did at Duke you'd never do again.

WE are all stuck in this thing together, lets make the best of it! Your GME education is what you make of it so make the best of it at NCC and enjoy it as much as you can. Then when your time is up, get out and go civilian.

 

[Capt_Mac]

Mac- I realize the benefits of the Army programs, especially with mass casuality trauma, blast injuries, burns, etc. But, when I am done with my Army service (as you will be someday), I want to be a CT/transplant anesthesiologist. These civilian programs make the Army look like kindergarten in these areas. I realize that I will be well trained at NCC, but believe it or not, not everyone cares about trauma. Those are the jobs that pay the least and are the WORST hours in the civilian sector. Everyone, even you, will someday like a job where we can be home early and enjoy family, since we will have worked harder in our careers than 90% of people out there.

The point is, there is easily a way to coordinate a residents' future aspirations with Army needs...but the Army only gives those opportunities to those students who avoid all contact. The Army could create a better learning environment, make their programs MUCH more appealing, and improve their ABA scores if they made their programs more "well-rounded". I've discussed this with 2 program directors who are also on the training accreditation council. They acknowledge that when they looked at the Army programs, this was a huge area that is in need of improvement.

Go to NCC and make the best of it. Then get out and do your fellowship. I understand your frustration over the perception that other people are getting ahead by unethical behavior. That is always tough. Stuff like that will come home to roost for those guys. best of luck.

 

[Hawkeye MD]

Hey master,
I matched in anesthesia at NCC as well. Where are you doing the intern year?

 

[masteropuppets]

Hey master,
I matched in anesthesia at NCC as well. Where are you doing the intern year?

Yo Hawk, I'll be at Walter Reed for my transitional year. At least I won't have to move twice.

 

[USAFdoc]

[
Or you can choose to drink the "Islanddoc and USAFdoc Koolaid" and think that the sky is falling.[/QUOTE]


hey, I like the Koolaid quote,...nice!

remember, I am only serving to those getting into USAF primary care, For that group, the sky is not falling, it is the landscape that has been turned into so much CRAP and it all flows downhill into the providers lap. Anyone other than USAF primary care will have to take a raincheck...the various services SGs will have their own special brew for them.

but again, real nice quote !

 

[masteropuppets]

Hey master,
I matched in anesthesia at NCC as well. Where are you doing the intern year?

Where you at for your TY?

 

[threepeas]

Mac- I realize the benefits of the Army programs, especially with mass casuality trauma, blast injuries, burns, etc. But, when I am done with my Army service (as you will be someday), I want to be a CT/transplant anesthesiologist. These civilian programs make the Army look like kindergarten in these areas. I realize that I will be well trained at NCC, but believe it or not, not everyone cares about trauma. Those are the jobs that pay the least and are the WORST hours in the civilian sector. Everyone, even you, will someday like a job where we can be home early and enjoy family, since we will have worked harder in our careers than 90% of people out there.

The point is, there is easily a way to coordinate a residents' future aspirations with Army needs...but the Army only gives those opportunities to those students who avoid all contact. The Army could create a better learning environment, make their programs MUCH more appealing, and improve their ABA scores if they made their programs more "well-rounded". I've discussed this with 2 program directors who are also on the training accreditation council. They acknowledge that when they looked at the Army programs, this was a huge area that is in need of improvement.

I thought army anesthesiology residencies produced excellent ABA results that were higher than the national average atleast. what stats do you have as i am considering anesthesiology. also cant you use your elective time in CA-3 to do speciality work and then do an army paid fellowship where ever you want? i am sure duke would love to have you in their fellowship program especially if the army pays. anyway good luck. i am a second year and try to shawdow down there as much as possible so maybe i will run into you.

 

[masteropuppets]

I thought army anesthesiology residencies produced excellent ABA results that were higher than the national average atleast. what stats do you have as i am considering anesthesiology. also cant you use your elective time in CA-3 to do speciality work and then do an army paid fellowship where ever you want? i am sure duke would love to have you in their fellowship program especially if the army pays. anyway good luck. i am a second year and try to shawdow down there as much as possible so maybe i will run into you.

From what I believe, to do a fellowship, even as a civilian, would add time on to payback...no way.

I could go to Duke as a resident still, if I get a rebuttal board approval...but I doubt it.

As far as the ABA, I believe the Army's numbers are above the national average (around 60-70th%ile), probably because they have fantastic daily didactic teaching. But these are nowhere near the top civilian programs (e.g. MGH, UCSF are > 90-95th%'ile).

 

[Hawkeye MD]

I'm at Ft. Gordon in Augusta, so I'll be renting for a year and then moving up there. I thought it was kind of wierd that I matched at NCC, considering I only did an ADT at BAMC and didn't interview at all at NCC. I was hoping to defer as well.

 

[threepeas]

From what I believe, to do a fellowship, even as a civilian, would add time on to payback...no way.

I could go to Duke as a resident still, if I get a rebuttal board approval...but I doubt it.

As far as the ABA, I believe the Army's numbers are above the national average (around 60-70th%ile), probably because they have fantastic daily didactic teaching. But these are nowhere near the top civilian programs (e.g. MGH, UCSF are > 90-95th%'ile).

if you do a civilian fellowship on civilian dollars you dont have any extra payback. my current plan is to do a military residency, do my four years, and then if still interested do a fellowship in either CT or CCM. doing the CT/transplant type fellowship before starting your payback probally wont change you job to much in the military as they dont do a whole lot of these cases. i met a guy who graduated from NCC, spent almost 9 months in CT at WHC in DC during his CA-3, and is "allowed" to do hearts now that he is an attending at NCC. kind of a shortcut but temporarily may give some options until fellowship.

anyway worse case scenario...do the military residency, do a civilian fellowship of your choice, do your payback, and then on your way you go.
BTW do you mind if i email you with some questions about the BAMC/NCC programs? Thanks and good luck.

 

[masteropuppets]

if you do a civilian fellowship on civilian dollars you dont have any extra payback. my current plan is to do a military residency, do my four years, and then if still interested do a fellowship in either CT or CCM. doing the CT/transplant type fellowship before starting your payback probally wont change you job to much in the military as they dont do a whole lot of these cases. i met a guy who graduated from NCC, spent almost 9 months in CT at WHC in DC during his CA-3, and is "allowed" to do hearts now that he is an attending at NCC. kind of a shortcut but temporarily may give some options until fellowship.

anyway worse case scenario...do the military residency, do a civilian fellowship of your choice, do your payback, and then on your way you go.
BTW do you mind if i email you with some questions about the BAMC/NCC programs? Thanks and good luck.

sure, send a private message to me.

 

[masteropuppets]

I'm at Ft. Gordon in Augusta, so I'll be renting for a year and then moving up there. I thought it was kind of wierd that I matched at NCC, considering I only did an ADT at BAMC and didn't interview at all at NCC. I was hoping to defer as well.

Hawk:
Are you gonna send in a rebuttal board request? I was going to do it today. What civilian programs were you looking at(favorites?)?

 

[Hawkeye MD]

Hawk:
Are you gonna send in a rebuttal board request? I was going to do it today. What civilian programs were you looking at(favorites?)?

Considering my past experiences with the Army, I don't think a rebuttal board request is worth it. I think the chance of it changing something is about 1 in ten million.

 

[RichL025]

Considering my past experiences with the Army, I don't think a rebuttal board request is worth it. I think the chance of it changing something is about 1 in ten million.

I've been in the army for awhile, and I will point out to you two things

1) Your chance of it changing if you _don't_ rebut is zero, which is much less than your 1 in ten million.

2) It costs you nothing except some time to rebut

I'm not saying that your chances are _good_, just that sometimes the army can surprise you by occasionally doing the right thing for the soldier (as long as it's also at least the semi-right thing for the army)