Aristotle, General Medicine, and the Eye

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MPS

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It totally slipped my mind until today that there is an ancient philosophical argument that the AAO could invoke to defend its "territory"-

"...the man who is to heal eyes must know about the whole body also..."

Aristotle, The Nicomachean Ethics: Book I.13.

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It's not an argument? Aristotle will be turning in his grave!
 
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o.k.?...you believe I went to optometry school for four years and only learned about the eye?....you people must have no idea about our program?...which is funny because your so quick to point out that we are not trained well enough to point and click a laser button at the post. capsule, or the trabecula...your trying to continue and monopolize the eye care industry...calling every procedure a surgery...this simply not true and the public will eventually recognize it...guess what, giving an injection, putting a nasogastric tube in, intubating a pt., putting in a catheter, or many of the other things I do as an RN aren't surgery and they are much more invasive!...it seems ridiculous to listen to an omd preach about the wellfair of the patient, it's not about the pt, ....this is about money or territory...just like it was when we won the court battle to prescribe medicine in the 1980's......you need to check your ego and do some research on what the optometry program consists of before you start running your mouth.
 
Maybe an optometrist could do a YAG-cap, I don't think that's the main issue here. There is a fundamental difference between an MD and other health care professionals, even DO's. And while I've worked with and I respect many DO's, some of whom are surgeons, there is a difference between the two degrees. It's like graduating summa cum laude versus graduating cum laude. There is a difference. Going to medical school is different than optometry school. This difference must be acknowledged. To purport that you understand the human body equivivalently compared to an MD is absurd. Even if your curriculum was identical to medical school, the average medical student would probably learn more than the average optometry student simply because they are two different student populations. I know this sounds arrogant, but I just don't see how you can argue agaist this. It'sl like saying there is no difference between Harvard and a community college because they both teach biology and economics, etc. Even if legislation is passed, etc., the public will always understand that there is a difference between MD's and everyone else. This is why many non-MD "doctors" will have their names displayed as "Dr. Smith," not "E. Smith, OD," and why most MD's have their name displayed as "E. Smith, MD."
 
I do understand where your coming from....the way we write our name thing was a little wierd but...for most part, I hear you and acknowldge your training is more intense and you guys are definitely the experts in whatever field you choose, and yes, you guys are taught more about the human body in general, however, I'm sure there are OD's out there that understand the body and it's relation to the eye better than some MD's. For example, I've heard and witnessed several incidents were a primary care MD or an ER MD, treated a vision threatening problem with gentamycin and a patch.....as for your comment about the public....I really don't know if the general public will ever understand the difference nor do they really care....they just want whatever will fix the problem, and be the cheapest.....
 
I just read the title to your above post SirJun...and all I have to say is if you want to be a surgeon then why are you worried about these minor procedures (yag, alt, lasik)....all of which are not surgery, if they are then I just performed surgery last night when I cut my toe nails!!! oh my god somebody call an MD surgeon....I COULD SUFFER SERIOUS COMPLICATIONS AND LOOSE MY TOES......NO MORE LITTLE PIGGY WHAT WILL I DO!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Marley,

No, I don't believe that people who went to optometry school for 4 years "only learned about the eye". I have personal insight into this issue - I attended optometry school for 4 years.

Having basic medical and surgical training certainly places you in a better position to diagnose, treat and manage many eye conditions, even if they don't involve surgery. (Take a look at some of the cases that Andrew Doan has posted for evidence. I would suggest that you need a pretty solid theoretical and practical grounding in the diagnosis and management of systemic disease to manage these cases properly.) As regards surgery, I'm sure you're not the sort of person who thinks that there is little difference between a toenail and an eye. Remember that there is a difference between having the motor skills to perform LT and being able to make a sound decision on when to do it, on whom, and to what end.

Optometrists have an important role to play in primary eyecare: they should concentrate on doing what they are well trained to do.
 
I hear you mps...I was really just picking at SirJun....your right, there is a difference between a toe and an eye.....I understand that...I have worked as an RN in a level one truama facility for 5 years know, I've worked on the weekends during school,...I'm amazed that as an RN I can do so many invasive procedures on the weekend and then come to the eye clinic and hear people get concerned over us performing alt, lasik, yag. To me these are primary eye care procedures.....and I've seen hundreds of lasik surgeries performed and I'm sorry but it is not that difficult to do or manage....it is a primary care intervention that a primary eye care provider should be able to perform....I have a really hard time believing that this will be dangerous to the public with the proper training.....I honestly just think it is about money!....you have got to see where I'm coming from??...
 
Marley,

You're forgeting one key factor. As a nurse, there is a physician's order, and a physician is ultimately responsible. The actual procedure may not be difficult, but the judgement to do a procedure may not be as clear as you suggest.

For instance, perform LASIK on a pellucid cornea and let me know how "easy" that is to manage. Frankly, your cavalier attitude scares me.
 
Marley,
Come on, get real! The amount of general medical knowledge taught in optometry school is no where near what the MD students get! Last time I checked, OD's did not do 2 years of clinical rotations in medicine, surgery, pediatrics and other subspecialties! And to become an OD does not require one year of internship training, which OMD's complete in either surgery or medicine.

To say that our educations are similar is a sad, sad, misinterpretation of the situation, and it is you who should be ashamed of opening your mouth without a grasp of the facts. Hell, as you suggest, RN's are as qualified to do "invasive" procedures as MD's. That may be completely true, but as an RN, if the patient dies because that procedure was a bad idea, you won't be held responsible. I am tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, of hearing everybody on this planet with some small degree of medical training think that they know everything, and can do everything in medicine. A little knowledge is dangerous, and the more you learn, the more you find out what you don't know. That's probably why every EMT and RN think they know everything while every first year resident is scared to death of killing someone.

You should truly be commended on the dedication it takes to act as an RN. It's a job not many people could do. However, and I don't care how many NG tubes of other "invasive" procedures you may have performed, you are in no way of the equivalent training of an MD. And you never, never, ever, will be until you go through medical school. I almost wish there was a way for all of you people who think your training is just as rigorous and thorough to take our boards and see just how you measure up.

I am not trying to be holier-than-thou or advocate that I'm so intelligent or anything. But to say that the OD's training is similar to the MD's is ridiculous. And it's even more than ridiculous - laughable - sad, perhaps, that you could even begin to equate the so called "invasive" procedures an RN undertakes to anything in the realm of ocular surgery. (I suppose IV's, foley's and NG's are equivalent to digging into someone's eye with a keratome that could destroy the cornea). Of course, being the intelligent person you are, you did attempt to compare toe nail clipping to laser surgery.

So go home all you allied health people!!!! I"m tired of hearing it. RN's, CRNP's, CRNA's, PA's, CRT's, whatever...all of you need to come to grips with the situation. You are all direly needed to make profession of health care keep ticking. But you are not of the equivalent training of the MD. And you should be content in the role that was originally set for your professions. 50 years of nursing or pa or whatever does not equal MD.

And as for us MD's being money grubbing and only wanting to reserve surgery for ourselves for the money...well hell man, what can I say. First off, once everybody with a degree and a legislative act allowing them to act like a physician gets into practice, why bother with med school? Maybe we should put it in these terms, since maybe it will hit closer to home....what if opticians suddenly were allowed to prescribe and dispense contact lenses and eyeglasses? Certainly you don't believe it takes 4 years of OD school to do this. Just as you believe the OMD's training is too extensive for their function, I'm sure others can take the place of the OD's. But of course, being the altruistic, money-hating OD that you are, you would not care if you lost half your business to opticians, right. I'm sure that your would see it as an excellent cost savings program and not complain one bit as your antithesis opticians open up shop and dole out prescriptions for a fourth of what an average OD visit would cost, right?

Finally, who will take care of the OD's complications? I'm sure the OMD's are going to be more than happy to take care of complications that come from OD surgery, especially seeing how no OMD in the country would rightly consider OD's qualified to do these operations.

But hey...I understand where you're coming from. You didn't goto med school for some reason, whether you didn't want the time investment, or you didn't gain acceptance, and now you want to find another way to do the work of a physician. I can understand that. Funny thing is, it's always PA's, CRNP's, and OD's citing physician greed as limiting their scope of practice, yet the greed of these very individuals causes them to extend their scope of practice beyond what is safe to patients. So who do you think is greedy? The notion has always been that physicians act in the role in which they currently act. It is the "allied" professions that seek to make their own gains.
 
And another thing....

Whether it's about money or not is not even a valid argument. It could just as easily be argued that OD's have sought to increase their scope of practice for the sake of making higher incomes. I mean, truly, I would guess that OD's salaries have increased with the ability to write prescriptions and manage glaucoma...and it would most definitely increase if given priveleges to do surgery. What a silly argument. I mean, it's as if the OD's are some uber-altruists who just want increased scope and responsibility to make access easier and help their own patients, while the MD's are grabbing at every dollar they can make.

Tell me....what makes you so certain that the OD's are the altruistic ones who care not to make a dime off their new found practice priveleges?

So I'll make the same argument....

OD's just want increased scope of practice to fatten their wallets! What makes this even worse is, maybe they want to fatten their wallets without keeping the patients' well-being the priority.

Of course this doesn't apply to the fine folks who agree with the MD's position, or even very fine people like TomOD, who is just a fantastic guy. But the rest of you...how dare you :)
 
Ok, I think people are forgetting an important point here:

A couple of years ago family medicine practicioners were trying to practice Obstetrics just as an OBGYN would, including all Cesarean Sections. They tried to get legislation approved because they thought a "simple" C/S could be performed by any MD.

Here comes my point.

OBGYN's obviously denied this plan because it is not the C/S, it is the possible COMPLICATIONS that any procedure involve. As thinking beings, we can apply the same principles to this issue.

Everyone knows that even the simplest of procedure carries an associated risk. If we let optometrist perform "simple" procedures, will they be able to solve any complications?? OK, there might be 1 complicated case per 1,000,000's , but that 1 case, can they handle the situation the way an MD would?

I doubt it very much!!!

It is my firm believe MD's are trained above any other degree. If it were me, I would only trust my health, including my eye health to a specialist who was trained over and over and over with the complications and the next step of managements.
 
Dr. Doan, obviously you have to have some judgement to recommend lasik, ...you see we are already screen and recommend lasik for pt.'s...my percieved "cavalier" attitude shouldn't scare you it should humble you!...

Geddylee.....I hope you feel better about yourself for the clarification of our different academic backgrounds....and AGAIN, I'll agree with you....your education is superior to ours....I know our training is not equivelent to yours....my point is, the procedures mentioned above are primary eye care procedures...all of those other professions you hate RN's, CRNP's, CRNA's, PA's, CRT's have procedures they do in their realm of healthcare also...your argument about opticians getting the right to prescribe lenses to help people see better is cute...but also pathetic....I know, your trying to turn things around, and make me feel like your profession must feel about optometry...this is a completely different argument.....you see we already have been trained to screen for a disease process which is essential...opticians might make a wet amd pt. see better temporarily while in the long run having serious consequences....there are hundreds of scenarios like this.....my point is we are trained to identify if the tissue or the function of the visual system is comprimised in a way that could threaten a persons life or whatever...if an optician wanted to try then fine...I'll just sit back and wait for the lawsuits to start rolling in...oh and guess what we have already lost half of our business to the commercial eye industry.....I honestly feel very confident that an optometrist can handle a lasik pt., yag procedure, alt, without putting the patient in danger...no more than a resident or any other general OMD who performs a 5 cataract surgeries per month..why don't you just let us try if your so confident we will cause harm to the pt.....our court system should prevail right??...let's face it our health care system is dynamic!....these procedures are not surgery....if something does go bad...then you guys will have to deal with it...you can't refuse to see a pt..if you do then good luck to your reputation.....remember we can tarnish your reputation in the eye of the public just as well....your comment about not going to med school makes me laugh....you see while I was working as an RN I had the wonderful opportunity to assess many different professions in the healthcare world..often times working along side MD's of all types...hanging out with them...I met so many MD's who were unhappy or had a terrible lifestyle b/c of the hours they worked or the fact that they didn't finish until they were 36!...optometry was recommended quite a few times....so after much research I feel like was able to foresee how our health care system was changing and many allied professions were becoming pretty sweet jobs..and I was right..unfortunately, to me it sounds like your are jaded becouse you weren't able to see this change in our healthcare system, like many other MD's and your are egotistic...vanity is epidemic in your profession....for me going into med school was a waste of my precious time....and yes you guys are overtrained for many of the things you do....your argument about the safety of the patient for these procedures is lame....clearly your mad because I didn't have to go through the professional hazing that you did....I would be to...sucks for you....optometry is sweet....my brother works 40 hours a week...makes 100k per year....if we invest right we will start backing off work in our mid forties if we want to?....(if you would like some advice on investing I would be glad to share it with you).......I'm sure O.D.'s want these procedures to fatten their wallet, welcome to free enterprize rookie....congratuations you just spent a good bit of your residency getting over trained and pimped out by your attending...it's so wrong...he,he....

Vanelo,....your argument is also lame....realize complications happen to OMD's as well and they have to consult other MD's for help or other specialist...it's funny that you have such strong doubts on such strong speculation.....please lets get real here....
 
marley said:
Dr. Doan, obviously you have to have some judgement to recommend lasik, ...you see we are already screen and recommend lasik for pt.'s...my percieved "cavalier" attitude shouldn't scare you it should humble you!...

A cavalier attitude about surgery is a warning sign for problems. This is scary. This is the difference between a non-physician and physician.

Read this article about co-management. The optometrist missed the diagnosis of pellucid degeneration, and the surgeon who trusted the optometrist.

http://www.bonnebridges.com/pdf/Lasik_Article_PDF.pdf
 
There is a fundamental difference between an MD and other health care professionals, even DO's. And while I've worked with and I respect many DO's, some of whom are surgeons, there is a difference between the two degrees. It's like graduating summa cum laude versus graduating cum laude. There is a difference.


Wow this is a very offensive statement. While I agree that OD's have no business performing surgery on patients, I do not believe that MD's are superior to DO's. The argument that ALL MD schools are more difficult to get into than DO schools is ridiculous, especially considering all the number of Caribbean MD schools. You don?t see any Caribbean DO schools do you? Not to mention the fact that DO's and MD's compete for the same residency spot. DO's and MD's increasing both take the same USMLE's. The two degrees are different philosophically, however both DO's and MD's are quality trained fully competent physicians!!!
 
marley said:
I know, your trying to turn things around, and make me feel like your profession must feel about optometry...this is a completely different argument.....you see we already have been trained to screen for a disease process which is essential...opticians might make a wet amd pt. see better temporarily while in the long run having serious consequences....there are hundreds of scenarios like this.....my point is we are trained to identify if the tissue or the function of the visual system is comprimised in a way that could threaten a persons life or whatever...if an optician wanted to try then fine...I'll just sit back and wait for the lawsuits to start rolling in

This is not a completely different argument. What you say applies to OMD's vs OD's. You might be trained, but not to the extent of and OMD. Even your choice of words shows your lack of knowledge - there is a difference between 'screening' and 'diagnosis'. Have you been trained to make a proper diagnosis then?

marley said:
I honestly feel very confident that an optometrist can handle a lasik pt., yag procedure, alt, without putting the patient in danger...no more than a resident or any other general OMD who performs a 5 cataract surgeries per month

Confident?!! How many have you actually performed?! Observing and actually cutting are two different things. I've seen the Iron Chef in action hundreds of times, but simply watching him does not make me a world class chef! And as for the OMD who performs 5 a month.. how many did he or she do before to become qualified? Residents are supervised and they practice on animals thoroughly before cutting. There is no substitute for experience.

marley said:
I would be to...sucks for you....optometry is sweet....my brother works 40 hours a week...makes 100k per year....if we invest right we will start backing off work in our mid forties if we want to?

Its all relative. $200K in debt for optometry school, 4 years in optometry school, and at least 2-3 years after graduation to make the kind of money your brother makes, coupled with the time it will take to pay back those educational loans + interest. Imagine in that time, beginning at age 21 straight from graduation, instead you were a computer scientist, engineer or investment banker making $80K - $120K/year. You would make loads more money simply by working and investing in those 7-10 years. As a former computer scientist and investment banker - its sucks to be you! :rolleyes: Do things for the interest or you will be miserable in one way or another.
 
marley said:
why don't you just let us try if your so confident we will cause harm to the pt.....our court system should prevail right??...let's

Hmmm....let's just let you try. Unfortunately for the patient, the court system cannot repair the ill-informed damage that was caused to their eye. See, Marley, unlike you...who thought medical school was "a waste of time" and thinks that allied health jobs are "sweet" (what are we....17?), most of us actually care about doing the right thing for the patient. And that's probably why we wasted our time going through the MD training, so that we could make those decisions. By the way, I think it's fairly vulgar that you condemn OMD's for for being greedy then talk so flagrantly about your great earning potential. C'mon man....give us all a break.

marley said:
these procedures are not surgery....if something does go bad...then you guys will have to deal with it...you can't refuse to see a pt..if you do then good luck to your reputation.....remember we can tarnish your reputation in the eye of the public just as well

So basically what you're saying is, let OD's do surgery just for the sake of doing surgery, because there will always be OMD's to fix their screw-ups? This is slightly frightening coming from someone who should hold their patients' welfare above all else. I certainly would not want to see any OD with the attitude of, "oh, well, if I screw up I'll just send them to the MD and they can deal with it." And by the way, I don't know if any law that says any physician MUST see any patient...maybe I'm wrong. Of course, I'm sure they would, regardless. But this seems like the equivalent of taking your car in for an engine overhaul because you were too stupid to put oil in it. Why risk sending a patient to an OMD for a major complication that either could have been avoided altogether, or maybe even corrected by the same person that caused the complication.

marley said:
optometry is sweet....my brother works 40 hours a week...makes 100k per year

Yes, clearly your brother is a real hero to you. I'm sure he and all the other OD's in the country would be very proud of your ignorant comments.
 
SLO...IF ONLY I HAD SAID DIAGNOSE AND NOT SCREEN....I WOULD HAVE BEEN RIGHT........YOU KEEP THINKING WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO DIAGNOSE...HAVE FUN IN YOUR LITTLE FANTASY WORLD?...ALL I CAN DO IS LAUGH...I DON'T EVEN HAVE THE ENERGY TO CRITICIZE YOU...I do enjoy what I do, but I also like making money....I'm not saying 100k is a lot of money...it's not...but since I started investing at age 16 it has grown very well...hell, I make 100k per year off my investments! judging by the way you were talking about my #'s you must have been a terrible investment banker ...no wonder you switched to a profession to boost your ego....you make me laugh!

geddy-lee...have fun with yourself....and good luck trying to stop optometry....don't work too hard!....thanks for the great laugh....I hope you can convience everyone in your life how important you are and superior to others you are......to me your a pretty good joke...I'm sure there will be plenty of people out there who enjoy your ingnorant comments as well

it's pretty obvious to me, you guys don't have respect for other non md physicians and according to sir jun, you guys think you are superior to even the DO......whom there really is no difference......

MD's like geddy-lee (the bad-ass guitar player...what are we 17?) are going to self destruct by showing how stuck up they truely are...the public will recognize this.....I was reading on one post here that for job security, an MD will be trained to the highest level.....therfore his job will never be in jeopardy......here is my hypothesis, the very specialized procedures that you became trained for (and in the eye they are usually hardly an efficient procedure i.e. not getting the pt. back to 20/20) won't be in high demand.....the common things will be taken over by primary care providers...in AL 90% of the surgeries are done by 25% of the OMD's....it's only going to get more competitive in the future for you guys to find a steady group of pt's to do your very specialized procedures on....I'm going to enjoy watching you all get humbled!!

I am going to try and use this website for something other than pulling you guys off your high horse...I'm getting a bit tired of it....but if you want to keep going....then bring it on!!!!!!!....otherwise let's focus on learning about eye care...and what's best for the patient.
 
These threads on optometrists performing surgery have slowly descended in to a mud-slinging contest. I think that it is all very unseemly.

The topic of optometrists performing surgery boils down to whether or not they have the training to do so. I don't think that they do - this is not because some of them don't have a BA or BS, and it's not because optometry school isn't as hard as medical school. The training path to ophthalmic surgery is clear - a medical degree, post-grad training in general medicine/surgery followed by post-grad training in ophthalmology. No optometrist - no matter how capable or experienced - could claim that they've received equivalent training.
 
marley said:
the common things will be taken over by primary care providers...in AL 90% of the surgeries are done by 25% of the OMD's....it's only going to get more competitive in the future for you guys to find a steady group of pt's to do your very specialized procedures on....I'm going to enjoy watching you all get humbled!!

I appreciate your input Marley.

I don't know where you get your stats, but there is actually going to be a need for more surgeons with the baby boomers getting older. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=115417
(published in the Archives of Ophthalmology)

The common procedures should be done by general ophthalmologists, the general surgeons for the eye! ;)
 
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