Are you really Doctors?

[mstald1]

Biomedical PhD candidates take far more advanced basic sciences courses than "Biochemistry" or "Medical Pharmacology." They take courses like "Enzyme Kinetics" or "Advanced Cardiovascular Pharmacology" and that is what makes their coursework doctorate level.

Master's candidates take neither clinical classes or anything beyond the survey classes that we take as MS-1 or 2. Ergo...not a doctorate level.

Not true. What makes basic science PhD degrees doctorate level is the research work that is done in their field, i.e. the equivalent to MD clinical training. In reference to Master's degrees the same is basically true, depending of course on the program. Master's students, at least in my former program, take the exact same classes as PhD candidates. These classes are not survey classes I assure you. The difference comes in the scope of their research project.

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[zippy81]

A doctorate is a 4 year degree after undergrad. It doesn't matter what the degree is in.[/QUOTE]


Well, a JD degree is only 3 years as is the physical therapy doctorate


Also, what about a pharm d degree? They don't take PhD level classes in their 3 years of classes (no research) and only one year of clinicals. Also many programs allow you in after only 2 years of undergraduate work. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a doctorate, just wanted to know what others thought

 

[ProZackMI]

Uh, wow. Did you even read what I just wrote? I said putting Dr. in front of their name is something I don't usually see them do--referring to the PhDs I have been exposed to. NOT dentists or optometrists or whatnot. PhDs. PhDs and no one else. And I am NOT saying that they aren't called "doctor so and so". I don't know how many times I have to repeat that. Christ.

All I am saying is that the people I know say they don't put Dr. in front of their names so that they are not mistaken for MD/DOs. THAT'S ALL.

I'm an MD and JD and I NEVER put Dr. in front of my name, always MD. The ONLY people who put DOCTOR in front of their names are chiropractors who are too embarassed at having the letters DC appended after their names. All of the physicians I know append MD or DO after their names.

Also, why isolate the PhDs from the vets, optos, chiros, PharmDs, etc.?

By the way, what makes one a "doctor" is the degree he/she holds, not his/her job. It's only in the US and Canada that we associate the word doctor with the occupation of physician. In Europe (outside the UK), if you say you're a doctor, or introduce yourself as Dr. X, most people will assume you're either a lawyer (JD) or PhD in some discipline. An MD is considered a "mere body mechanic". Interesting how culture has an influence on the usage of the title.

 

[ProZackMI]

Are you saying that dentists shouldn't put Dr. in front of their name?

What about the professors at school, whom you actually refer to as "Dr. so and so."

A doctorate is a 4 year degree after undergrad. It doesn't matter what the degree is in.

An MD is actually 3 years of coursework after undegrad and one year of clerkships/clinical work. A PhD can be as much as 7 years after undergrad, often 4-5 after a master's. You can get a JD, PharmD, DDS, DPT, AuD, and a few other doctorate after 3 full-time years of study.

 

[ProZackMI]

A doctorate is a 4 year degree after undergrad. It doesn't matter what the degree is in.

Well, a JD degree is only 3 years as is the physical therapy doctorate


Also, what about a pharm d degree? They don't take PhD level classes in their 3 years of classes (no research) and only one year of clinicals. Also many programs allow you in after only 2 years of undergraduate work. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a doctorate, just wanted to know what others thought

Most PharmDs have a BS/BA or at least 90 (3 years) credits of undergraduate education with the same general prereqs as med students. A PharmD is 4 years of professional grad work. Most dental, optometry, vet, and chiropractic schools only require 2-3 years of undergrad without a degree to get in, although most dentists have a bachelor's degree. To be competitive, however, most students actually have a completed bachelor's degree. There are 3 year MD and DDS programs at some medical schools (accelerated programs, flex programs, direct entry from high school programs, etc.). Many vet schools offer a 3 year DVM program

The JD is generally 3 full years, including summers, of academic study beyond the BA/BS. ALL law students must have a bachelor's degree; there is no such thing as 60-90 credits of undergrad work to get in. To be accepted into an ABA approved law program, one must have a BA/BS -- many have MBA, MA, MS, MD, PhD, or other degrees.

It's possible to get a PhD in as little as 3 years post bachelor's if you are on track with your dissertation/research and have an organized dissertation/guidance committee with no hidden agendas.

Remember, it's the program content and depth of the material that makes the degree doctoral level, not the length of the program.

 

[CANES2006]

An MD is actually 3 years of coursework after undegrad and one year of clerkships/clinical work. A PhD can be as much as 7 years after undergrad, often 4-5 after a master's. You can get a JD, PharmD, DDS, DPT, AuD, and a few other doctorate after 3 full-time years of study.

Not sure where you got this info., but an MD is actually 2 years of coursework after undergrad and 2 years of clerkships/clinical work.

 

[Firebird]

Not true. What makes basic science PhD degrees doctorate level is the research work that is done in their field, i.e. the equivalent to MD clinical training. In reference to Master's degrees the same is basically true, depending of course on the program. Master's students, at least in my former program, take the exact same classes as PhD candidates. These classes are not survey classes I assure you. The difference comes in the scope of their research project.

If you'll look back at what I said, I said the thing that puts their COURSEWORK at a doctorate level is the classes beyond the intro classes. I wasn't talking about their degree in general.

Essentially every required course during the first two years of medical school are survey courses. Biomedical PhD and Master's candidates take the same courses and then they go on to take Doctorate level coursework, which are not survey courses. Essentially, they both take doctorate level COURSEWORK...which was all I was saying. The PhD goes on to write a dissertation, whereas a Master's candidate writes a thesis, which is significantly less work. That is why a PhD can call themself a doctor whereas a Master doesn't get a title.

And honestly, I would guess that the PhD candidate goes on to take more coursework than the Master's student, but I would imagine that would vary according to program.

 

[ProZackMI]

Not sure where you got this info., but an MD is actually 2 years of coursework after undergrad and 2 years of clerkships/clinical work.

At Michigan State, College of Human Medicine, we had about 2 years of required coursework, 1 year of electives, and 1 year of clinical/clerkships. It may have changed in that program, but that's how it was in the mid-late 90s.

 

[mysophobe]

I'm an MD and JD and I NEVER put Dr. in front of my name, always MD. The ONLY people who put DOCTOR in front of their names are chiropractors who are too embarassed at having the letters DC appended after their names. All of the physicians I know append MD or DO after their names.

Also, why isolate the PhDs from the vets, optos, chiros, PharmDs, etc.?

By the way, what makes one a "doctor" is the degree he/she holds, not his/her job. It's only in the US and Canada that we associate the word doctor with the occupation of physician. In Europe (outside the UK), if you say you're a doctor, or introduce yourself as Dr. X, most people will assume you're either a lawyer (JD) or PhD in some discipline. An MD is considered a "mere body mechanic". Interesting how culture has an influence on the usage of the title.

That's funny about the chiropractor thing. I have a whole 'nother issue with them.

Anyway, I isolated them because that's who we were talking about. We were talking about PhDs in academic environments. If we were talking in general, it would have been different. Anywho, I've seen MANY MDs/DOs put Dr. in front of their name. I don't know where you live, but where I live, I see it a lot.

Once again, for the billionth time, I am not talking about anyone's profession or whether they are a "doctor". I was just talking about positioning of the title and what I've seen. I don't know how many times I've said this.

 

[Firebird]

I dont think its true. I have seen PhD's use Dr in front of their name. If you were sending out formal letters or announcements, the proper way to address the inner envelope would be Dr. and Mrs ____________ or Mr. and Dr. ____________ or, if both husband and wife were PhD's (which was the case in one of my wedding invitations), you would address them as "Drs. ____________."

 

[dtn3t]

wtf

That's the first thing I said!

 

[toofache32]

And btw, a PhD is not a strict 4-year degree. Some people take much longer, some do it in 3.

Like med school.

 

[OSUdoc08]

An MD is actually 3 years of coursework after undegrad and one year of clerkships/clinical work. A PhD can be as much as 7 years after undergrad, often 4-5 after a master's. You can get a JD, PharmD, DDS, DPT, AuD, and a few other doctorate after 3 full-time years of study.

ACTUALLY, you are incorrect.

MD is 2 years of classes and 2 years of clinicals.

(With the exception of some schools such as Baylor, which are 1.5 years of class and 2.5 years of clinicals.)

 

[ProZackMI]

ACTUALLY, you are incorrect.

MD is 2 years of classes and 2 years of clinicals.

(With the exception of some schools such as Baylor, which are 1.5 years of class and 2.5 years of clinicals.)

I addressed this in an above posting.

At Michigan State, College of Human Medicine, we had about 2 years of required coursework, 1 year of electives, and 1 year of clinical/clerkships. It may have changed in that program, but that's how it was in the mid-late 90s.

It was 2 years of coursework, about (not exactly) one year of electives taken at the osteo or allo med schools (or some graduate biomed classes) and about one year of clinicals. I was making a rough estimate, but it was about 2 years of classes, 1.5 clinicals, and maybe half a year of electives. I know it wasn't exactly 2+2. Sorry for the lack of clarity.
Zack

 

[OSUdoc08]

I addressed this in an above posting.



It was 2 years of coursework, about (not exactly) one year of electives taken at the osteo or allo med schools (or some graduate biomed classes) and about one year of clinicals. I was making a rough estimate, but it was about 2 years of classes, 1.5 clinicals, and maybe half a year of electives. I know it wasn't exactly 2+2. Sorry for the lack of clarity.
Zack

Electives = Clinicals

I'm not sure how are making clinicals and electives 2 different categories.

You have:

Required Clinicals and Elective Clinicals --> 2 years of clinicals

 

[RonaldColeman]

MD: got into medical school
PhD: the guy who makes it a point to tell you why he didn't choose medical school even though you know he just couldn't get in.

 

[OSUdoc08]

MD: got into medical school
PhD: couldn't get into medical school

Explain the MD/PhD program, please.

 

[RonaldColeman]

Explain the MD/PhD program, please.

MD or MD/PhD: got into medical school
PhD: the guy who makes it a point to tell you why he didn't choose medical school even though you know he just couldn't get in.

 

[OSUdoc08]

MD or MD/PhD: got into medical school
PhD: the guy who makes it a point to tell you why he didn't choose medical school even though you know he just couldn't get in.

What if the PhD isn't in one of the sciences?

For example, a PhD in education in someone who wanted to be a college professor after having taught as a high school teacher for years.

 

[RonaldColeman]

What if the PhD isn't in one of the sciences?

For example, a PhD in education in someone who wanted to be a college professor after having taught as a high school teacher for years.

MD or MSTP: got into medical school
PhD: the guy who makes it a point to tell you why he didn't choose medical school even though you know he just couldn't get in.

 

[Firebird]

MD or MD/PhD: got into medical school
PhD: the guy who makes it a point to tell you why he didn't choose medical school even though you know he just couldn't get in.

Not everyone in the world wants to go to medical school. But I think you're right especially when the PhD has a chip on his or her shoulder when teaching to medical students.

 

[Tapout]

Seriously, who the f*** cares about all of these titles anyways?? Just go do what you trained to do and stfu! We all have different roles whether you respect them or not, so just get over your hang-ups and move on. These titles are over-rated and no matter where one is in this world there will always be turf wars because there are insecure people.

 

[SoCuteMD]

The JD is generally 3 full years, including summers, of academic study beyond the BA/BS. ALL law students must have a bachelor's degree; there is no such thing as 60-90 credits of undergrad work to get in. To be accepted into an ABA approved law program, one must have a BA/BS -- many have MBA, MA, MS, MD, PhD, or other degrees.

I'll let you know the next time I talk to a law student who is doing anything relating to "academic study" this summer. That is, besides getting paid 30K to get drunk with their classmates.

 

[Psyclops]

MD: got into medical school
PhD: the guy who makes it a point to tell you why he didn't choose medical school even though you know he just couldn't get in.

I'm not going to tell you why I didn't choose med school. But let me ask you this did your MD school have a 4% acceptance rate? I didn't think so. On average I don't think it's that hard to get the MD, you need four years of time, a whole lot of rote memorization, and pass a couple of tests. Plus, you can do all this while enjoying the reflection off the Caribeean sea. I know you like generalizations, that's mine.

 

[Psyclops]

I'll let you know the next time I talk to a law student who is doing anything relating to "academic study" this summer. That is, besides getting paid 30K to get drunk with their classmates.

I think that sounds like an amazing summer, I'm quite jealous of the JDs for that.

 

[mysophobe]

Like med school.

What? Who finishes med school in less than 4 years? I've never heard of that before except in some caribbean schools.

 

[endodoc]

We all know 'that person' who has their Ph.D., and makes it known to everyone around that they are "a doctor..."

The title of doctor for a person who has their Ph.D. is to be reserved for use in an academic setting, where it is clear to everyone involved what this honor implies. The top of a Ph.D's personal check should not read "Dr. Jack Smith."

Very lame thought, Sky04.

To be clear, a MD usually never has Dr. Joe Blow, MD. In most settings it is on paper Joe Blow, MD. If people are to stupid to know what MD means then it makes no difference to them or you if they see Dr. prior.

As far as the whole PhD and MD "doctor" complex. In beleive that a PhD should be called Doctor not Prof. Anyone with a masters can be Prof, on a part time basis. So in my case would you call me Dr. Prof, since I have both MD and PhD?

How about Vets or your dentist? They are doctors too or do we only call them Mr. or Mrs, because they do not have MD after thier name....?

 

[DrNick2006]

At Michigan State, College of Human Medicine, we had about 2 years of required coursework, 1 year of electives, and 1 year of clinical/clerkships. It may have changed in that program, but that's how it was in the mid-late 90s.

MSU-CHM is 2 years preclinical and 2 years clinical, of which 5 months of clinical electives and 3 months time off are allowed in the clinical years.

 

[mysophobe]

To be clear, a MD usually never has Dr. Joe Blow, MD. In most settings it is on paper Joe Blow, MD. If people are to stupid to know what MD means then it makes no difference to them or you if they see Dr. prior.

As far as the whole PhD and MD "doctor" complex. In beleive that a PhD should be called Doctor not Prof. Anyone with a masters can be Prof, on a part time basis. So in my case would you call me Dr. Prof, since I have both MD and PhD?

How about Vets or your dentist? They are doctors too or do we only call them Mr. or Mrs, because they do not have MD after thier name....?

I see Dr. Joe Blow, MD very frequently. I think it's a bit redundant, but I guess they don't think so. Whatever floats yer boat. As far as Prof. and Dr. go, there is a difference. From what I understand, you can teach and not be a Prof. Calling yourself Prof. Joe Blow when you're not wouldn't be too nice.

As far as vets and dentists go, I see Joe Blow, DMD or DDS, but the vets always go by Dr. Joe Blow except for one place near my house where they do Joe Blow, DVM or VMD.

 

[toofache32]

What? Who finishes med school in less than 4 years? I've never heard of that before except in some caribbean schools.

This is getting off topic, but we lost that a long time ago. Oral/maxillofacial surgery residents sometimes have 1-2 years of med school integrated into their residency to get an MD. And some med schools will break up the first 2 years into 3 years for people with issues.

 

[psych2b]

What? Who finishes med school in less than 4 years? I've never heard of that before except in some caribbean schools.

Also, some schools combine undergrad and medical school into just 6 years, instead of 4+4. An example: Brown University.

 

[mysophobe]

Yes, but if I am understanding it correctly, 4 years is still basically med school. I didn't know about the oral/maxillofacial surgery thing. That's interesting to know.

 

[toofache32]

Yes, but if I am understanding it correctly, 4 years is still basically med school. I didn't know about the oral/maxillofacial surgery thing. That's interesting to know.

Here are some pretty good descriptions:

http://sdm.uchc.edu/departments/oralmaxillo/OMFS Website/6yearoverview.htm

http://www.lsuoralsurgery.com/dept/resi/index.html

http://www.dentistry.vcu.edu/omfs/residency/curriculum.html#option

 

[mysophobe]

Cool. Thanks for the links.

 

[tr]

MD: got into medical school
PhD: the guy who makes it a point to tell you why he didn't choose medical school even though you know he just couldn't get in.

I don't know any PhD students who started out wanting to go to med school. A bunch of them change their minds after they get halfway through their degree and see how crappy the job prospects are, though.

The reason they start feeling like they have to explain themselves is because a few of the med students are suffering under the same illusion as yourself. If people kept telling you you were only in med school because you couldn't get into grad school, wouldn't you start feeling like you had to explain that that wasn't the case?

 

[Firebird]

I'm not going to tell you why I didn't choose med school. But let me ask you this did your MD school have a 4% acceptance rate? I didn't think so. On average I don't think it's that hard to get the MD, you need four years of time, a whole lot of rote memorization, and pass a couple of tests. Plus, you can do all this while enjoying the reflection off the Caribeean sea. I know you like generalizations, that's mine.

Referring to licensure as "passing a couple of tests," is laughable.

 

[mysophobe]

I tell them it's because I want to get paid for all the work I put into it and actually have a job when I get done.

 

[Loopo Henle]

I can not believe this thread still lives on. If a troll wants to begin an immortal thread all they have to do is insult the majesty of medicine, and a never ending flame fest fueled by insecure egos is the result. If I was going into psych, this would fascinate me to no end.

 

[Mumpu]

I'm not a doctor but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

 

[Solideliquid]

I'm not a doctor but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

B.P.E.

Best.Post.Evar!

 

[edinOH]

This is one of the most stupid threads ever.



Who gives a shi t????

 

[jason3278]

The only problem is nowadays there are:

Optometric Physicians
Chiropractic Physicians
Naturopathic Physicians
Fill-in-the-blank Physicians

Optometrists are NOT physicians. When I worked for a RGP contact lens lab in Michigan, I read an article about some OD who was ordered by his state to stop using the title 'Dr. So-and-so, Optometric Physician', since ODs are not complete physicians. In the same way, I don't think Chiropractors can call themselves Chiropractic Physicians.

 

[cdql]

Hi! I'm Dr. Smith. I have my PhD in burger flipping. Would you like to supersize your Whopper meal?

 

[OzDDS]

What? Who finishes med school in less than 4 years? I've never heard of that before except in some caribbean schools.

McMaster University School of Medicine in Canada awards an MD in only 3 years.

 

[endodoc]

This is one of the most stupid threads ever.



Who gives a shi t????

I care and you can call me Dr. Give a. Sh.t, MD, PhD

 

[mysophobe]

I like how people who think these posts are stupid feel the need to post that on them. Makes me laugh.

 

[bigfrank]

I'm not going to tell you why I didn't choose med school. But let me ask you this did your MD school have a 4% acceptance rate? I didn't think so. On average I don't think it's that hard to get the MD, you need four years of time, a whole lot of rote memorization, and pass a couple of tests. Plus, you can do all this while enjoying the reflection off the Caribeean sea. I know you like generalizations, that's mine.

Agreed. I hear RonaldColeman goes to one.

 

[DrNick2006]

www.google.com

Doctor - 423,000,000 web pages
PhD - 259,000,000 web pages.
MD - 895,000,000 web pages

MD's are clearly the coolest

 

[OSUdoc08]

www.google.com

Doctor - 423,000,000 web pages
PhD - 259,000,000 web pages.
MD - 895,000,000 web pages

MD's are clearly the coolest

DO - 8,080,000,000 web pages

 

[mysophobe]

I officially like you now.