Are you in radiology because of the money?

[womp]

Ortho is a great field, no doubt. Show me a radiologist who makes less that hospitalists and I will show you 20 orthopods who hate every moment of their career/life (I am MSK radiologist and regularly see more orthopods than you have seen in your life).

My question is if you are happy with your choice, why you are hanging around in radiology forum and try to convince others (or yourself) that ortho is a right choice. What are you looking for here?

Because someone else may be sitting at the same decision tree right now and having to make a similar decision as I did. After all, most people reading this forum are medical students trying to decide their careers with very limited exposure and information.

And if we're going to go with pointless "someone I know" rhetoric, well at least half of the radiology faculty I worked with strongly recommended I go into ortho while listing off the plethora of reasons that you yourself have so eloquently posted in the past.

Honestly, I don't get why y'all are so defensive. I come to this thread to agree with one med student (Sirach38)'s more optimistic take on medicine (that we didn't really just sacrificed our prime 20s) and posted in another forum some 2014 match rate statistics and an observation that radiology is becoming less competitive, and I get chewed on because I didn't end up going into rads? Sheesh.

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[shark2000]

Because someone else may be sitting at the same decision tree right now and having to make a similar decision as I did. After all, most people reading this forum are medical students trying to decide their careers with very limited exposure and information.

And if we're going to go with pointless "someone I know" rhetoric, well at least half of the radiology faculty I worked with strongly recommended I go into ortho while listing off the plethora of reasons that you yourself have so eloquently posted in the past.

Honestly, I don't get why y'all are so defensive. I come to this thread to agree with one med student (Sirach38)'s more optimistic take on medicine (that we didn't really just sacrificed our prime 20s) and posted in another forum some 2014 match rate statistics and an observation that radiology is becoming less competitive, and I get chewed on because I didn't end up going into rads? Sheesh.

No one wants to invest 6 years in a grueling residency to find out they'll make less than a hospitalist on an hourly basis, or even worse, can't even find a job.

Faculty recommendation, while is respected, is not correct most of the time. A faculty who has been in his field for 20 years is not well informed about other fields. See medescape survey. Almost in every field, more than 50% of doctors would not choose the same field if they want back. FYI, I have many friends in different fields and many of them swear that I make more than a million (much more than what I make).

I am not defensive. You try to talk medical students out of radiology and I just want to say that your statements are not correct. In which market a radiologist is making less than a hospitalist?

Auntminnie is full of the cliche posts "hospitalist versus radiologist". I hope you are not the same troll who posts there. If you based your decision on auntminnie, you made a big mistake. At the end, I personally don't believe that you are here just to enlighten the road for medical students.

Ortho is a very good field, but for its right personality. I hope you have the personality, otherwise you will hate every moment of your life.

 

[womp]

I am not defensive. You try to talk medical students out of radiology and I just want to say that your statements are not correct. In which market a radiologist is making less than a hospitalist?

Auntminnie is full of the cliche posts "hospitalist versus radiologist". I hope you are not the same troll who posts there. If you based your decision on auntminnie, you made a big mistake. At the end, I personally don't believe that you are here just to enlighten the road for medical students.

Chill out. My comment "No one wants to invest 6 years in a grueling residency to find out they'll make less than a hospitalist on an hourly basis, or even worse, can't even find a job" was referring to neurosurgery (hence "grueling residency" and "hourly basis") and feeling sorry for them, as a cheeky response to another poster's left-field comment about spine reimbursements soon getting "slashed." Read the goddamn post again in context.

And what exactly are you trying to insinuate with "I personally don't believe that you are here just to enlighten the road for medical students"? You and Kaputt have been incredibly nasty and trigger-happy with your insinuations.

This was my original post:

If spine reimbursement were drastically cut, I'd feel worse about the PP neurosurgeons.... Spine ortho guys can always do more joints and ortho fellowships are 1 yr.

No one wants to invest 6 years in a grueling residency to find out they'll make less than a hospitalist on an hourly basis, or even worse, can't even find a job.

Your defensiveness is completely from your own neurosis.

 

[Kaputt]

Chill out. My comment "No one wants to invest 6 years in a grueling residency to find out they'll make less than a hospitalist on an hourly basis, or even worse, can't even find a job" was referring to neurosurgery (hence "grueling residency" and "hourly basis") and feeling sorry for them, as a cheeky response to another poster's left-field comment about spine reimbursements soon getting "slashed." Read the goddamn post again in context.

Your defensiveness is completely from your own neurosis.

This was my post:

Yo homes, my only point about spine, which went wayyy over your head apparently, is that me, a future radiology resident, crashing into an ortho forum to tell all the ortho interested med students and residents that their field sucks or whatever or has problems on the horizon is unwanted.

You're not going into radiology, so why hang around here? I am not going into medicine, so should I hang out on the IM board and tell them how rounding sucks? C'mon, man.

 

[womp]

Yo homes, my only point about spine, which went wayyy over your head apparently, is that me, a future radiology resident, crashing into an ortho forum to tell all the ortho interested med students and residents that their field sucks or whatever or has problems on the horizon is unwanted.

You're not going into radiology, so why hang around here? I am not going into medicine, so should I hang out on the IM board and tell them how rounding sucks? C'mon, man.

Okay I get it. Since I'm not going into radiology, I'm entitled to no opinions about the field, regardless of how much research or prior interest I have had in it. We've had equivalent medical training up to this point, but your opinion is the only one that matters now in this forum, especially in a thread called "are you in radiology because of the money?"

You guys have got real problems if my post (not even in this thread) on some 2014 NRMP match data and quoting a current issue JACR paper can ruffle that much feathers. I won't partake in your derailing this thread any longer. Again best of luck to you in your radiology career.

 

[Kaputt]

Okay I get it. Since I'm not going into radiology, I'm entitled to no opinions about the field, regardless of how much research or prior interest I have had in it. We've had equivalent medical training up to this point, but your opinion is the only one that matters now in this forum, especially in a thread called "are you in radiology because of the money?"

You guys have got real problems if my post (not even in this thread) on some 2014 NRMP match data and quoting a current issue JACR paper can ruffle that much feathers. I won't partake in your derailing this thread any longer. Again best of luck to you in your radiology career.

You really don't get it. It's not that I value my own opinion above yours, or that any feathers are being ruffled. The point is that I have no idea why you, an ortho guy, took the time to hop over to Aunt Minnie or post here about how our field has apparently turned to crap and it's no longer competitive and how hospitalists and PCPs make a better living and whatever else. We get it -- you picked ortho over rads. To me, all these posts come off as self-congratulatory, as if you see yourself on a lifeboat smirking at all the passengers on a sinking ship. To that I just roll my eyes.

 

[womp]

You really don't get it. It's not that I value my own opinion above yours, or that any feathers are being ruffled. The point is that I have no idea why you, an ortho guy, took the time to hop over to Aunt Minnie or post here about how our field has apparently turned to crap and it's no longer competitive and how hospitalists and PCPs make a better living and whatever else. We get it -- you picked ortho over rads. To me, all these posts come off as self-congratulatory, as if you see yourself on a lifeboat smirking at all the passengers on a sinking ship. To that I just roll my eyes.

I know you like to have the last word, but please stop misrepresenting me. As I have said time and time again, my cheeky comment that it would suck to be making a hospitalist income on an hourly basis was referring to the impact of your hypothetical "slash" of spine reimbursements on PP neurosurgeons, who we all know do 6 or 7 year residencies and work like dogs. That you would then continue to mischaracterize that statement over and over again as an attack on radiologists and their income, despite my repeated clarifications above, reveals a lot about your character. Goodbye.

 

[Kaputt]

I know you like to have the last word, but please stop misrepresenting me. As I have said time and time again, my cheeky comment that it would suck to be making a hospitalist income on an hourly basis was referring to the impact of your hypothetical "slash" of spine reimbursements on PP neurosurgeons, who we all know do 6 or 7 year residencies and work like dogs. That you would then mischaracterize that statement over and over again as an attack on radiologists, despite my repeated clarifications above, reveals a lot about your character. Goodbye.

Judging someone else's character by forum posts...lol...the Internet sure is serious business. We clearly have nothing more to say to each other.

 

[meister]

*ffffaaaarrrtttt*

 

[tco]

For the record, when I was deciding between radiology and surgical fields, I did not only visit the radiology forums to look at what posters were saying. There are plenty of other people that come here to discuss how bad the field is currently, and any student in your position is going to visit the other forums as well. I do, however, understand where you were coming from with your post.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

For the record, when I was deciding between radiology and surgical fields, I did not only visit the radiology forums to look at what posters were saying. There are plenty of other people that come here to discuss how bad the field is currently, and any student in your position is going to visit the other forums as well. I do, however, understand where you were coming from with your post.

So I was reading on the Wash-U site that the avg salary for radiologists is 489k. Really? How is it possible that while reimbursements are down and salaries are down, the salaries are so high?

 

[radman123]

So I was reading on the Wash-U site that the avg salary for radiologists is 489k. Really? How is it possible that while reimbursements are down and salaries are down, the salaries are so high?

Partner salaries inflate the averages. Some still do well. I came out during the good years and never reached that number and make less than what I did 7 years ago. Most recently trained rads will NEVER come close to that number. In fact most are lucky to get a decent job these days.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Partner salaries inflate the averages. Some still do well. I came out during the good years and never reached that number and make less than what I did 7 years ago. Most recently trained rads will NEVER come close to that number. In fact most are lucky to get a decent job these days.

I see. But it's fair to say that partners avg a 1/2 a million still these days? I was very surprised to see that number, especially given the starting salaries that people I know that have graduated in recent years have gotten, which is about 1/2 of that.

I have seen quite a large # of jobs on different websites. Are you saying these jobs are not real or what?

 

[radman123]

I see. But it's fair to say that partners avg a 1/2 a million still these days? I was very surprised to see that number, especially given the starting salaries that people I know that have graduated in recent years have gotten, which is about 1/2 of that.

I have seen quite a large # of jobs on different websites. Are you saying these jobs are not real or what?

Partner salaries have taken a hit. Averages vary widely depending on many factors. Large desirable metros lower range in my experience. Also some places have junior and senior partners, scam partners where you are an employee etc. Within 2 SD, I would guess 300-600k.

Check out this thread here on SDN: good things about awful rad job market. I run a hypothetical job search for 3 states. Results are grim. And remember that the few jobs available have tons of applicants.

Assuming you have some geographic preferences, run a hypothetical search on acr.org, rsna.org, and practicelink.com for your preferred location with YOUR subspecialty. You will be surprised at how grim the market is. For example, go to practicelink.com. Last I checked there were 26 jobs advertised for 1000+ residents/fellows graduating. While derm with what 300-400 grads had closer to 300 jobs advertised! I think even path had more jobs advertised! And remember, this unadvertised market that people talk about means you have to know the right people, which you may not.

 

[rule out normal]

Partner salaries have taken a hit. Averages vary widely depending on many factors. Large desirable metros lower range in my experience. Also some places have junior and senior partners, scam partners where you are an employee etc. Within 2 SD, I would guess 300-600k.

Check out this thread here on SDN: good things about awful rad job market. I run a hypothetical job search for 3 states. Results are grim. And remember that the few jobs available have tons of applicants.

Assuming you have some geographic preferences, run a hypothetical search on acr.org, rsna.org, and practicelink.com for your preferred location with YOUR subspecialty. You will be surprised at how grim the market is. For example, go to practicelink.com. Last I checked there were 26 jobs advertised for 1000+ residents/fellows graduating. While derm with what 300-400 grads had closer to 300 jobs advertised! I think even path had more jobs advertised! And remember, this unadvertised market that people talk about means you have to know the right people, which you may not.

Radman123 has significantly more free time than any other radiologist I know.

 

[shark2000]

The average does not mean anything.

In most fields, if you go to flyover country esp small towns in midwest you can make almost twice as much as you make in SF, LA or Boston or almost any big and medium size city in NE. Consider that most US population and most doctors don't live in big or medium size cities. As a result, the average in coasts are (much) less. A family doctor in Wyoming may make more than a surgeon in Seattle.

Physicians in some fields are more dispersed all over the place than others. For example, OB-Gyn or IM and its subspecialties or general surgery or radiology are all over the place as the demand is relatively evenly distributed relative to the population. However, something like cosmetic Derm services are more in demand in big cities. The same for something like transplant surgery which is done in big academic centers and not in small towns. So for the first group of fields, if you say the MEAN income is X, I assume that in big cities esp coasts the income is a fraction of X. However, for the second group if you say the MEAN income is X, the income in big or medium size cities is close to X (transplant surgery) or even may be more than X (cosmetic Derm).

Long story short, too many factors are involved that the average does not mean that much for personal goals. The market is tight in big cities for most fields and may be worse for radiology. Once there are more supply than demand, some other factors also become super important. Medicine esp in big cities is a real business. If you have done some real world business, you know what I mean.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

The average does not mean anything.

In most fields, if you go to flyover country esp small towns in midwest you can make almost twice as much as you make in SF, LA or Boston or almost any big and medium size city in NE. Consider that most US population and most doctors don't live in big or medium size cities. As a result, the average in coasts are (much) less. A family doctor in Wyoming may make more than a surgeon in Seattle.

Physicians in some fields are more dispersed all over the place than others. For example, OB-Gyn or IM and its subspecialties or general surgery or radiology are all over the place as the demand is relatively evenly distributed relative to the population. However, something like cosmetic Derm services are more in demand in big cities. The same for something like transplant surgery which is done in big academic centers and not in small towns. So for the first group of fields, if you say the MEAN income is X, I assume that in big cities esp coasts the income is a fraction of X. However, for the second group if you say the MEAN income is X, the income in big or medium size cities is close to X (transplant surgery) or even may be more than X (cosmetic Derm).

Long story short, too many factors are involved that the average does not mean that much for personal goals. The market is tight in big cities for most fields and may be worse for radiology. Once there are more supply than demand, some other factors also become super important. Medicine esp in big cities is a real business. If you have done some real world business, you know what I mean.

I understand what you mean. But I think for a major university to post something like that is misleading. From my graduating med school class, I would doubt most of my classmates would be making that kind of $$ for a long long time whether in rads, gas or something else unless they had some serious business skills.

 

[cbtk18]

Radman is the most obvious troll I've seen in quite some time. I mean really, what practicing radiologist who has been in the job market as long as he "claims" to be spends this much time on a medical school forum to tying to scare people?

It's laughable

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Radman is the most obvious troll I've seen in quite some time. I mean really, what practicing radiologist who has been in the job market as long as he "claims" to be spends this much time on a medical school forum to tying to scare people?

It's laughable

I don't think he said anything that out of the question. Is there a doubt that salaries have taken a hit and that the job market is rough?

 

[maxxor]

I understand what you mean. But I think for a major university to post something like that is misleading. From my graduating med school class, I would doubt most of my classmates would be making that kind of $$ for a long long time whether in rads, gas or something else unless they had some serious business skills.

The WashU site cites AAMC as the source for their salary data. I logged into Careers in Medicine on AAMC site to see where they got their data.

MGMA is the ultimate source. So as shark2000 said, it's inflated by including partner data.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

The WashU site cites AAMC as the source for their salary data. I logged into Careers in Medicine on AAMC site to see where they got their data.

MGMA is the ultimate source. So as shark2000 said, it's inflated by including partner data.

It seems that they are using old data too. They have certain specialties like IM/EM/psych etc way lower than the typical salaries. Oh well.

 

[Jonassen]

Radman123 has significantly more free time than any other radiologist I know.

Plenty of radiology residents post here, who arguably would have less free time than an established radiology attending. All these character assassinations of people who disagree on the radiology market is getting tiresome.

 

[colbgw02]

Plenty of radiology residents post here, who arguably would have less free time than an established radiology attending. All these character assassinations of people who disagree on the radiology market is getting tiresome.

You would lose that argument. Private practice radiologists, which includes radman123, work a lot harder than radiology residents.

Do you really think that people are going after radman123 despite his reasonable approach? No, it's because he's a broken record who extrapolates his anecdotal experience to the entire country. There is a place for reasonable discussion about the ails of the radiology job market, but he's gone well beyond that. The most obvious proof of this is his repeated use of internet searches as creditable proof that the job market stinks, when anyone in-the-know has known for years that the overwhelming majority of decent jobs are not advertised.

Furthermore, do you really think that anyone here is in denial that the radiology job market is bad right now? No one has their head in the sand - not after 4-5 years of this. The point is that repeated negatively is useful to no one, except for internet trolls interested in stirring things up.

 

[radman123]

You would lose that argument. Private practice radiologists, which includes radman123, work a lot harder than radiology residents.

Do you really think that people are going after radman123 despite his reasonable approach? No, it's because he's a broken record who extrapolates his anecdotal experience to the entire country. There is a place for reasonable discussion about the ails of the radiology job market, but he's gone well beyond that. The most obvious proof of this is his repeated use of internet searches as creditable proof that the job market stinks, when anyone in-the-know has known for years that the overwhelming majority of decent jobs are not advertised.

Furthermore, do you really think that anyone here is in denial that the radiology job market is bad right now? No one has their head in the sand - not after 4-5 years of this. The point is that repeated negatively is useful to no one, except for internet trolls interested in stirring things up.

Colbgw, I am interested in a new position. How do I tap into this vast unadvertised market? I have found all my previous locums and perm positions through the web. Do I call all the colleagues I know in radiology, my program from years ago, go to meetings and chat with people? Cold calls are low yield in my experience. This also risks my current group finding out.

Certainly you should not believe some anonymous poster on a forum. You should do your own research, but it will likely be sugar coated face to face. My experience is from talking to candidates who have interviewed for positions in my group, some experienced and some out of training and what they have had to say. Not to mention the scarcity of advertised positions.

It is not pleasant to hear such information about the field you may be potentially going into or training in. It is better to call me a troll than to perhaps look into it. I get nothing out of posting here and if you do not like my comments please ignore. I used this board a lot when I was in training and so now I come back here. Perhaps in some way I want to help even one student learn the truth so he does not have to suffer like I see some rads now.

 

[colbgw02]

Colbgw, I am interested in a new position. How do I tap into this vast unadvertised market? I have found all my previous locums and perm positions through the web. Do I call all the colleagues I know in radiology, my program from years ago, go to meetings and chat with people? Cold calls are low yield in my experience. This also risks my current group finding out.

Certainly you should not believe some anonymous poster on a forum. You should do your own research, but it will likely be sugar coated face to face. My experience is from talking to candidates who have interviewed for positions in my group, some experienced and some out of training and what they have had to say. Not to mention the scarcity of advertised positions.

It is not pleasant to hear such information about the field you may be potentially going into or training in. It is better to call me a troll than to perhaps look into it. I get nothing out of posting here and if you do not like my comments please ignore. I used this board a lot when I was in training and so now I come back here. Perhaps in some way I want to help even one student learn the truth so he does not have to suffer like I see some rads now.

Regarding your second paragraph, I wouldn't call you a troll if you posted things like that. I find that very reasonable, as I don't think there is anything wrong with posting one's own experience. Just don't try to universalize it.

Regarding the bolded, that's a tremendous false dichotomy you've set up there. And I'm not going to ignore you; I'll continue to call things as I see them. Many times I find your posts unreasonable, but parts of what you wrote above are quite legitimate.

As to your first paragraph, don't put words in my mouth. I never said there is a vast unadvertised market - only that most jobs are unadvertised. However, if you want my honest advise, then yes, you should do all of the things you listed. I understand that cold calls don't work out frequently, but neither does looking for new work in this market solely through web-based resources. And the fact that such an approach worked for you in the past is irrelevant.

 

[meister]

Radiology job market sucks, ortho guy thinks we suck, sky is blue. Let's move on.

 

[circulus vitios]

It seems that they are using old data too. They have certain specialties like IM/EM/psych etc way lower than the typical salaries. Oh well.

MGMA has another survey that lists starting salaries, I think.

 

[IMDoc607]

What else would you do? The vast majority of people in medicine have no other skill that could procure them a stable six figure job. Leaving medicine is largely an empty threat at best.

I saw someone liked a post of mine and it brought back to this thread. Since you and I have spoken plenty about things, I'll give you an example about what else I would do or am doing. I am currently investing in/helping/participating in multiple medical businesses. As a fellow, it has pushed my salary past the 6 figure range by a healthy margin. And I do this while sitting on my couch to.

So thats what I would do and am doing....I am not looking for millions or even hundreds of thousands. However, if I could add an extra 100 to 150K to my salary doing these ventures I can/will. To concede though, these are not without risk.

 

[Sirach38]

Come back after finishing your MS-3 OB-Gyn and MS-3 General Surgery rotations, Mr. "I love medicine and I love medical school."

Update. I have finished Ob/Gyn rotation, general surgery rotation, and I'm halfway done with internal medicine rotation. I still absolutely love medicine and medical school. In fact, I love it more than I did as a first or second year student.

 

[bjb305]

Update. I have finished Ob/Gyn rotation, general surgery rotation, and I'm halfway done with internal medicine rotation. I still absolutely love medicine and medical school. In fact, I love it more than I did as a first or second year student.

lies all lies! but if it is true... just you wait, we all get jaded by the system eventually

 

[Sirach38]

Good points.

But the poster is so ecstatic and so happy about being in medicine that if you don't know you think he has won the Megamillions 200 mil ticket. All of us have been through medical school. It is good. But there are always certain people who think that they have won a lottery because they are in medical school or a certain residency.

In my experience, people who are very excited in the beginning of the road, are one of the first ones who will become disappointed. Such level of excitement usually is a result of imagination and not reality. Once the same person sees the reality, the whole thing will change into a big disappointment. The happiest people in medicine or any other field are the ones who have "This is a job like any other job. It has its good and bad aspects. I like some aspects of it and I dislike some other aspects. But the whole thing is fine. Nothing is perfect" mentality.

For some of us medical school is close to winning the lottery. I grew up in a humble family. Neither of my parents finished high school. Growing up, my father had to work two jobs (80 hours/week) to support my mom, my siblings, and I, and to pay for a small two bedroom apartment. I have known what it's like to go without dinner because we couldn't afford groceries. So yes, working 60 hours/week and making $300,000+ is a pretty good deal to me. Especially if I'm doing what I love. Had I grown up in an upper middle class family and had everything handed to me growing up, my view might be much different. It's all about perspective.

 

[Sirach38]

lies all lies! but if it is true... just you wait, we all get jaded by the system eventually

I'll let you know when that day comes. Until then, I'll keep enjoying my life and doing what I love.

 

[bjb305]

I'll let you know when that day comes. Until then, I'll keep enjoying my life and doing what I love.

love the attitude.. well keep it up! i hope you go into something like medicine or surg or basically anything besides radiology cause i certainly am only fit for radiology so we (i) need doctors like you to do the other specialties!

 

[cbtk18]

This a weird conversation

 

[rule out normal]

For some of us medical school is close to winning the lottery. I grew up in a humble family. Neither of my parents finished high school. Growing up, my father had to work two jobs (80 hours/week) to support my mom, my siblings, and I, and to pay for a small two bedroom apartment. I have known what it's like to go without dinner because we couldn't afford groceries. So yes, working 60 hours/week and making $300,000+ is a pretty good deal to me. Especially if I'm doing what I love. Had I grown up in an upper middle class family and had everything handed to me growing up, my view might be much different. It's all about perspective.

And guess what? None of that makes you a better doctor. Sorry.

 

[shark2000]

For some of us medical school is close to winning the lottery. I grew up in a humble family. Neither of my parents finished high school. Growing up, my father had to work two jobs (80 hours/week) to support my mom, my siblings, and I, and to pay for a small two bedroom apartment. I have known what it's like to go without dinner because we couldn't afford groceries. So yes, working 60 hours/week and making $300,000+ is a pretty good deal to me. Especially if I'm doing what I love. Had I grown up in an upper middle class family and had everything handed to me growing up, my view might be much different. It's all about perspective.

Your view is valid and respectable, but will change over years. 15 years from now you will a totally different individual.

Your example is the extreme. On one side there are people who did not finish high school and on the other side you talk about certain group of doctors (If you consider that half of the doctors are PCPs, most doctors don't make 300k+ ).

Yes, I agree. But with the same logic, entering any college can be a lottery.

 

[Sirach38]

And guess what? None of that makes you a better doctor. Sorry.

Lol thanks. The entire point of my post was that my background will make me a better doctor...

 

[Sirach38]

Your view is valid and respectable, but will change over years. 15 years from now you will a totally different individual.

Your example is the extreme. On one side there are people who did not finish high school and on the other side you talk about certain group of doctors (If you consider that half of the doctors are PCPs, most doctors don't make 300k+ ).

Yes, I agree. But with the same logic, entering any college can be a lottery.

I agree. My perspective may very well change in 15 years. I can't speak for myself in 15 years. I can only speak for my current situation and my current feelings towards medical school as a naive 3rd year medical student barely halfway done with his 3rd year. I guess my purpose in posting is to point out that some people really enjoy medical school and don't feel like it is a waste of time. Again, in 15 years I may look back and think it was all a waste. Who knows, but then again, at the end of my life I may look back and think it was all a waste no matter what career I choose to do.

Anyway, this topic has probably run it's course but I do want to encourage those pre-meds reading this. If you love to serve people, problem solving, problem fixing, and working hard, medicine is a great choice. As a 3rd year who has finished the two hardest rotations of third year (surgery and Ob/Gyn) and is currently doing internal medicine, I still love medicine and I still love medical school. I still look forward to going into the hospital every morning and staying late (even if it is hard to wake up some mornings). But then again, I'm 24 and single. I have no wife or kids that I am leaving behind to go to the hospital. I am able to spend the little free time that I have as I please and with whomever I please. My perspective may be vastly different if a wife and kids were involved.