Anyone who loves to serve in the medical corps?

[wife4josh]

I have noticed there are many people here who are clearly unsatisfied with the choice they have made while becoming a military physician. I do understand they have their reasons, and that's certainly not my idea to oppose with their views. I just want to get to know people who see their service in more idealistic terms, as a kind of vocation (if I may say so)

Thanks

Kat

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[RichL025]

Kat,

I wouldn't say THREE is many people. Look at the names, not the number of posts

Since this is the "Student Doctor Network", most of us are still in training at some level. Whenever one of us contradicts one of the two or three angry attendings, we're told to pipe down, because "we don't know what good medical care is", and point to the fact that very few BC physicians have weighed in to contradict them.

Yet at least one (maybe two, I tend to tune them out) has admitted that the only reason they post here is to "warn others before they make the same choice" (So by their own criteria, no one who IS satisfied would be here. Nice catch-22, huh?).

Me? I still have many years of training left in front of me. But I also have 18 years of military service behind me. I could have gone through medical school entirely without any military commitment if I had wished, but one of my motivations for becoming a physician in the first place was to care for those going into harm's way. Yeah, I know, it sounds a little corny, but I haven't figured a better way of putting it....

As far as "vocation" goes (using the older, traditional definition), I definitely feel that is what I have - a "calling", but I have no doubt that many civilian physicians feel the same, also (geez, practically anyone in primary care!)

 

[wife4josh]

Me? I still have many years of training left in front of me. But I also have 18 years of military service behind me. I could have gone through medical school entirely without any military commitment if I had wished, but one of my motivations for becoming a physician in the first place was to care for those going into harm's way. Yeah, I know, it sounds a little corny, but I haven't figured a better way of putting it....

Thanks for your reply, and I just love to hear that. What you said here above sounds like music to my ears... I would also love to be a military physician. I honestly don't see myself doing anything else. I would love to serve those who serve all of us! I already see the "THREE" attacking me for what I just said. However so far they haven't said anything I haven't seen in the civilian healthcare in various European countries. Well, I have a long way to go though. In my family my Hubby is the only person with "proudly made in USA" in his passport . First I have to finish my school here in Europe and in the meanwhile get myself "brought up" for a good US citizen. DH is also going to return to service (prior USAF enlisted) but as an officer after his college.

I guess by the time I will be able to raise my hand I will already be after my U.S. residency. Though I think it's good for a person who is not a naturally born American. I won't have med school loans (med schools in Europe are gov subsidized), I will already be graduated and trained in my specialty of choice, so nobody will ever be able to tell me that I did it just for the benefits. I want to make a pure vocational step of it. It's not about what my Hubby's fatherland can offer to me, but what I can offer to USA, right?

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I think you should read what you see here and weigh everything. This is an open exchange posting forum about military medicine where anyone can say what they want. If a poster wants to post about their negative experiences, they are free to do so. You can believe it, or not. Some posters have had reason to complain about their practice experiences and what they believe are pervasive problems that affect doctors and patients in the military medical system. I don't think any of them have anything to gain except perhaps the personal satisfaction of creating a truthful counterpoint to the slick public relations advertising and slanted information presented by recruiters. Again, you can believe what you want.

The one thing that I hope this board never becomes is a cheerleading page for any point of view.

As for there being relatively few negative posters who have placed large numbers of posts, relatively few former military physicians probably even know about studentdoctor.net let alone this sub-board, and many are busy with their own lives, past negative experience in military medicine notwithstanding. They may have other things to do that are more important to them than posting here.

 

[pgg]

I have noticed there are many people here who are clearly unsatisfied with the choice they have made while becoming a military physician. I do understand they have their reasons, and that's certainly not my idea to oppose with their views. I just want to get to know people who see their service in more idealistic terms, as a kind of vocation (if I may say so)

Well, I'm very happy in the military. I can't imagine a better patient population to take care of than the Marines I work for now. I was never screwed or lied to by a recruiter or detailer; Navy GME gave me the residency I wanted, where I wanted it, at the stage of my career that I expected (post GMO tour); I've had immensely rewarding experiences taking care of US casualties as an intern at Bethesda and deploying to Afghanistan and Iraq.

It's not a perfect job. There are frustrating, tedious, annoying, pointless tasks that clutter my life, but I endure them, because (a) the up side of being in the Navy has outweighed the down side, thus far, and (b) they own me until 2013 anyway.


I wouldn't dismiss outright the statements of the more vocal people who who routinely post here to discourage people from going into military medicine.

Unfortunately, the truth is that there are real and significant problems with the way military medicine is run. As important as the job is, and as rewarding as it can be to be the one taking care of a Marine or soldier who just got shot kicking in the door of an insurgent's house ... there are problems with military medicine. And it appears that very little is being done to address those problems.


But here's my big-picture assessment of it:

People shouldn't be discouraged from going into teaching ... even though the US public education system is thoroughly messed up on many levels, pays poorly, and has ignorant politically-convenient government policies that damage teacher autonomy.

People shouldn't be discouraged from going into military medicine ... even though the miltary medicine system is thoroughly messed up on many levels, pays poorly, and has ignorant politically-convenient government policies that damage physician autonomy.

I don't necessarily disagree with the problems enumerated by posters who try so hard to dissuade people from going into military medicine. But I look upon their basic argument as one that is as fundamentally flawed as one that would seek to dissuade people from going into teaching.

Military medicine isn't just medicine plus snazzy polyester clothing; it's a specialty in its own right, with particular pros and cons. It's right for some people, not for others. A genuine desire to serve military personnel can be one factor that tips the balance in favor of military medicine ... but that alone is not enough for everyone.

Guys like USAFdoc help potential HPSP applicants understand the cons, and that's not a bad thing. My only real gripe with his posts is that they usually paint all of military medicine with a broad brush dipped in the bile of Air Force primary care. But hey, it's not like my own posts aren't just as biased in the opposite direction.

 

[USAFdoc]

good entry pgg; the fact that you have enjoyed your military career speaks to the fact that military medicine is not 100% bad at all areas, specialties, and services.

Again, I speak to that which I know and experienced. As a nuclear operator in the USN, we worked our tails off, but the training was good, required BEFORE you did a job, supervisors had experience with that which they supervised, maintenance was timely, and the senior "workers" had the ear of the supervisors, and MOST importantly, things were done safely and correctly.

All of the above things I just mentioned were nearly completely missing from what I experienced in USAF primary care. I would also request that additional weight be given to my argument because:

1) I have direct knowledge that this was/ is typical of primary care nearly everywhere in the USAF, perhaps less so in USN, Army.
2) Primary care makes up the backbone of military medicine (and civ med for that matter). Meaning that most students are more likely to become primary care doctors that any other single type of physician, so if military primary care is screwed, it will eventually affect more students (then to say that radiology is screwed, how many student would that effect).

 

[USAFdoc]

I have noticed there are many people here who are clearly unsatisfied with the choice they have made while becoming a military physician. I do understand they have their reasons, and that's certainly not my idea to oppose with their views. I just want to get to know people who see their service in more idealistic terms, as a kind of vocation (if I may say so)

Thanks

Kat

if I may add; I did consider my service as a USAF family doc as my vocation; I looked forward to being able to serve our troops and their families as their "family doc" and felt my previous enlisted career, and interpersonal skills gained through life experience and job experience would serve me an my patients well, and they did.

It was painful to make the decision to "give up" my military career, but there comes a point when enough is enough, when I would no longer be willing to stand for, or with an organization that was willing to run a clinic recklessly. I look at it as kind of a divorce. The behavior of the USAF was simply unacceptable to me, my standards are higher than that.

Now is military med as bad as I experienced, everywhere? Probably not. But everyone should still be concerned that OUR military is willing to do medicine that way, anywhere.

 

[USAFGMODOC]

I am very content in my USAF physician role, have 16 years in and think this is a great way for potential HPSP's and FAP's to get a "taste" of some real world military doc experiences (some good and some bad). I am very upfront with potential candidates who ask about the USAF medical experience; and I too was in Primary Care as a USAF PA for 4 years.

From my own Family Practice time, I can wholeheartedly agree with USAFdoc's opinion on how the system is totally broken in primary care.... In fact, I loved primary care, but 4 years of it was about all I could have handled (mostly due to undermanning, poor management and the mountains of extra hours it demanded)...

I'll tell it like it is to potential candidates (especially if they are going into primary care) because if they do choose this path, they at least did so with some form of "informed consent".

As far as the docs in the military, most of them do have a "sense of pride" in their jobs and I most certainly do, but that should not stop us from trying to correct the wrongs we see and make it a better system... Some see USAFdoc as a troll, but in reality, he is just a concerned physician who is speaking from his own experiences and I applaud him...

 

[wife4josh]

Thank you all for your comments and opinions. I do certainly understand your pros and cons. Personally I do not have the military experience yet, but my husband has served in the USAF and I honestly loved and cherished it.

I am not an American citizen yet (only my Hubby is) and that's why it will take me quite a few years before I will be eligible to join the US medical corps. At the moment I study medicine in Western Europe, but I was born and brought up in one of the Easter European countries, behind the so called "Iron Curtain". During my studies I have already spent some time doing student electives in Poland and please believe me that I know what a SICK healthcare system is. Stupid regulations, saving on everything and everybody, totally underpaid staff (both nurses and doctors). We even laughed there that "despite the treatment, the patient recovered" - you get the picture, don't you? So, you all have to realize that my level of expectations isn't high, even though I study in Western Europe where we have all the modern sophisticated infrastructure. I just know that it's never that bad that it couldn't be worse. I am very realistic in my expectations towards the world, but I am very idealistic about my attitudes towards my environment. People have always been telling me that life will "cure" my idealism, but actually quite the opposite is happening.

Except for my studies I also work at the hospital, and my job is pretty demanding when it comes to time and efforts I have to make. Believe me I earn really little money as I am "only" a student. Besides it the professors often ask me for assistance with Polish patients (because of the language - I am a certified translator). They happen to call nights, days and weekends - for this I am never paid, but I don't complain, cause after all I am there to help the patients, even though the system puts me in a pretty inconvenient situation. That's what I have chosen for and I love being there to help.

I know what I want and I am going to go for it, taking my full responsibility for what is going to happen. I just can't imagine myself doing anything else. I want to be a military physician. I believe in that choice, and after all the ups and downs in my life so far I don't think that there is much out there which could surprise me in a bad way.

The only reason why I posted this thread was because I want to see if there are people who think similar to me. I already know there are those who have a contrary opinion.

Greetz from the other side of the ocean, and please feel free to contact me if you want any input on transatlantic perspective of the medicine. I am the closest to the surgical field. I would love to keep in touch with the military docs from the "land of the free and the home of the brave".

my e-mail: [email protected]

Kat

 

[Mirror Form]

Kat,

I wouldn't say THREE is many people. Look at the names, not the number of posts

Since this is the "Student Doctor Network", most of us are still in training at some level. Whenever one of us contradicts one of the two or three angry attendings, we're told to pipe down, because "we don't know what good medical care is", and point to the fact that very few BC physicians have weighed in to contradict them.

I won't critisize you for disagreeing with the posters who have negative outlooks. However, it's poor form to try and discredit them, especially when there are certainly more then THREE. You're definitely not doing Wife4Josh (or anybody else) any favors by telling them to ignore the negative aspects and pretend that the dissatisfaction of doc's within the med corps is just some myth. Applicants should look at all the available information, not just the positives, before making any decision that will be binding for the next 12+ years.

 

[RichL025]

Sledge,

Applicants should look at all the available information, not just the positives, before making any decision that will be binding for the next 12+ years.

Absolutely. And what I was doing was trying to help the OP put the vast amount of negativity she was reading into perspective. I mean, come on... don't you think there is a difference between thre eposters making 500+ pissed-off posts, versus 500+ pissed-off docs posting once?

I won't critisize you for disagreeing with the posters who have negative outlooks.

(sorry for cutting & pasting out of order) - Well, in all accuracy, I am not disagreeing with their personal experiences and outlooks. What I disagree with is when an Air Force primary care doc extends his disatisfaction to the entire military medical establishment.

I accept their (and your) experiences, and that you all have had very negative experiences. What I will continue to do, however, is to chime in whenever anyone tries to make gross overreaching generalizations that are contradicted my MY observations and experience.

Oh, and more that Three????? I won't name names here, but I've been keeping an informal count. Maybe four, I'll allow, but certainly not a number much higher than that.

 

[DoctorDoom]

Kat,

I believe you know me from another site. Was my previous information helpful to you? Remember that there are significant differences between service, specialty, and duty station.

 

[wife4josh]

Kat,

I believe you know me from another site. Was my previous information helpful to you? Remember that there are significant differences between service, specialty, and duty station.

Thank you Sir, it was very helpful, and I actually kept collecting information about getting into the service in my case. I surely do realise there are differences, like there are differences between the people.

My honest preferance goes to USAF, but my Hubby considers options both in the Air Force and the Navy, so I haven't really made up my mind yet. Besides it, I still have a really long time ahead.

Right now I truly appreciate contact with people via the boards as I don't have the immediate possibility of meeting US military medical staff personally, at least not for now. I hope for a change in the coming months, as I am going to volunteer at one of the US military medical facilities in Europe. It's always an enriching experience to get to know the system before you are actually a part of it. I am really looking forward to that opportunity.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

but my husband has served in the USAF and I honestly loved and cherished it.

But how did HE feel about it? A spouse's opinion can be totally different (especially one that (I'm assuming) met her future husband because of his service).

 

[wife4josh]

Here is what he said recently:

Enlisted folks complaining about the service - that's like a kind o religion and he did that too. He thinks this complaining wasn't really justified and he has a strong wish of returning to the service after we graduate our schools.

I guess it explains a lot.

 

[RichL025]

Enlisted folks complaining about the service - that's like a kind o religion and he did that too.

Heh, I remember how much _I_ used to bitch about "the system" when I was enlisted (14 yrs).

Actually, I think there's a reference in Caesar's book on his campaigns in Gaul on knowing that his army was doing just fine, "as long as the legionaires were still complaining" - so the tradition of soldier's bitching goes back at least that far

 

[wife4josh]

That was so funny about the Roman legionaires. Though soooo true I guess. I think it's the same with nurses, at least in Europe. They always complain about hectic work, no matter whether it's really hectic or not. The youngest nurses first don't say anything, and then they just start complaining, cause they can't really "break the tradition" or disagree. Though when you talk to the young ones just one on one, they express lots of positive thoughts about their job...

 

[wife4josh]

I have just been reading through the replies to my thread once again, while trying to understand those who try showing the negative side of the military medicine. With all the respect to your right of presenting your opinion, I would like to share with you some of my thoughts:

1) There are people in the world who have a very loving and dedicated attitude to their ideals in general. They persist no matter what, and they take all the blows with grace, for better or worse. They come up with acceptance and are satisfied with every little difference they make.

2) "What you can do for the world is only a drop in the ocean of need, but it's what gives meaning to your life". None of us is capable of changing the general picture. Besides it, revolutions are barely positive - they mostly contribute to a state of generalized dispair. If we all keep doing the best we can, we might actually make some progress by advancing to something better, not to something new.

3) And last but not least. In terms of maths we say: -(-5) = 5. So only by substracting the negatives we can get a positive result. I'm afraid that by adding up the negative complaints we are not capable of creating a positive result +(-5) = -5. By discouraging everybody from the serivce, in this system we create a vicious circle. They will have too few docs, so they will try to encourage more, by coming up with extra benefits in order to get more people. It would be a very negative step, as it would only make more people join for the wrong reasons, and again they would be even more complaining, etc... It's not about what the military can offer to us, but what we can offer to the country. That's why it's called service (and not self-service). We may never forget that. We serve/want to serve the country, not ourselves. When choosing for a career in the military medicine, we should be ready for sacrifices, even if the personal satisfaction is the only "reward" we receive. Please let me remind you that personal satisfaction streams from one's heart, not from the external benefits we receive. Those who got honorably discharged from the service should not dishonor themselves by throwing stones at the values other happen to believe in. My choice for the military is only and exclusively based on my beliefs in certain values. Those are absent in the civilian healthcare, though I am not going to post all over the Internet to discourage people from becoming civilian doctors. Higher salaries and benefits are certainly not the right argument to justify "putting up with" the shortcomings of the civilian medicine.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I have just been reading through the replies to my thread once again, while trying to understand those who try showing the negative side of the military medicine. With all the respect to your right of presenting your opinion, I would like to share with you some of my thoughts:

1) There are people in the world who have a very loving and dedicated attitude to their ideals in general. They persist no matter what, and they take all the blows with grace, for better or worse. They come up with acceptance and are satisfied with every little difference they make.

2) "What you can do for the world is only a drop in the ocean of need, but it's what gives meaning to your life". None of us is capable of changing the general picture. Besides it, revolutions are barely positive - they mostly contribute to a state of generalized dispair. If we all keep doing the best we can, we might actually make some progress by advancing to something better, not to something new.

3) And last but not least. In terms of maths we say: -(-5) = 5. So only by substracting the negatives we can get a positive result. I'm afraid that by adding up the negative complaints we are not capable of creating a positive result +(-5) = -5. By discouraging everybody from the serivce, in this system we create a vicious circle. They will have too few docs, so they will try to encourage more, by coming up with extra benefits in order to get more people. It would be a very negative step, as it would only make more people join for the wrong reasons, and again they would be even more complaining, etc... It's not about what the military can offer to us, but what we can offer to the country. That's why it's called service (and not self-service). We may never forget that. We serve/want to serve the country, not ourselves. When choosing for a career in the military medicine, we should be ready for sacrifices, even if the personal satisfaction is the only "reward" we receive. Please let me remind you that personal satisfaction streams from one's heart, not from the external benefits we receive. Those who got honorably discharged from the service should not dishonor themselves by throwing stones at the values other happen to believe in. My choice for the military is only and exclusively based on my beliefs in certain values. Those are absent in the civilian healthcare, though I am not going to post all over the Internet to discourage people from becoming civilian doctors. Higher salaries and benefits are certainly not the right argument to justify "putting up with" the shortcomings of the civilian medicine.

Well taken. I disagree with you, though.

There are real problems with military medicine that affect the doctors who train under military scholarships and their patients. Saying nothing and letting the systematic wrongs persist for fear that bad publicity will harm recruitment is little more than passive participation in a conspiracy of silence. I think we do wrong when we say nothing. And putting up with something that is wrong is not self-sacrifice in a larger interest; it is a failing of moral courage.

Most potential applicants just don't know what they don't know. Few pre-medical students understand all the small details that go into their postgraduate training. Many don't know what specialty they want, and they shouldn't. It shouldn't surprise anyone that they don't have every angle figured out before signing. But they are nevertheless signing away real and significant options when they take a military scholarship contract. And recruiters, who have big budgets and slick advertising feel free to gloss over this fact. I think that isn't right, but that is what they do. So I think that those who give warning are doing a service in the interests of prospective applicants. They certainly aren't getting the downside from the guy pushing the contract papers toward them.

I really have to give credit to the posters who are presenting the downside who are still on active duty. There are professional risks to that. I am out now and have finished my training. I have little to fear that some O-6 with a chip on his shoulderboard over something I place on a public board is going to try to hurt my career. You should be glad they are willing to speak up instead of suggesting that they are not committed to the larger good.

I don't agree with you that none of us can change the general picture. I think we can. And I think that the military can do a whole lot better than it is now doing by its doctors and their patients. That change will come from understanding the flaws of the system and having the courage to consider alternatives and by bringing those ideas into action.

 

[wife4josh]

You surely do have a point, though please remember, that it's not by complaining that things get changed/better. It's not by negative words but by positive actions that we accomplish something. I didn't say that we shouldn't try to make improvements. Oh yes, WE SHOULD, WE MUST!!! I simply stated that by complaining about the service or by avoinding military medicine, we certainly won't reach anything positive.

But if you still disagree with me, maybe you could convice me by giving an example of how your complaining (ONE person on its own) has positively changed the general picture?

 

[USAFdoc]

1) a physician in the military is a very unique situation; they ( the mil) OWN you and they OWN your license to a certain extent. This removes perhaps the most significant leverage a civilian physician has when they confront admin to promote change..the ability to leave if the conditions of practice become unacceptable. The military can also get away with threats and similar against its doctors (these would be lawsuits in civilian practice) to attempt to quiet docs who speak up to loudly.

2) for many years, the military had an endless supply of unsuspecting students to fill its slots, so they had no motivation in this regard to change. That endless supply is drying up quick. That may not be the best way to promote change, but in the case of military medicine, it maybe the only way to get them to admit to the problems and force change.

3) To embarrass the military about it's sad state of affairs would be another way. For example; all the sexual harrassment going on at the USAF Academy. It had been going on for years and was basically ignored by the USAF, UNTIL, the press got ahold of it, and changes were then made overnight. Similar situation in US Professional baseball after Jose Canseco wrote a book about how widespread steroid use was. Again, changes were made relatively quick after that. And in other threads, see the articles published in the Dayton Daily News that won the Purlitzer Prize in 1998. The topic was of course, how bad and unsafe military medicine was (and unfortunately still is). It made a few waves and made the military make some promises (which of course have since been broken).

3) I agree with you, complaining alone is NOT the best way to handle problems. While on active duty I wrote a 15 page document noting USAF primary care problems and several pages of solutions. EVeryone agreed with my paper through my Commander and USAF reps at the Pentagon. Did I see any change.....very little. You have to realize how large and "immovable" the US gov and mil can be unless someone or something lights a "fire under their butt".

4) If people want to "sacrafice" their career and time with their family etc to serve as a USAF primary care doc, be my guest, there are worse things you could do with your life I suppose. I currently have what I consider to be the best job of my life as a civilian Family doc, after finishing what I still consider to be the worst possible FP job in the USA, that of a USAF FP. This matters to me both professionally, as I know have some say and control to ensure safe and adequate medical for my patients, and with a young family, I am now working 160 hours a month verses 275-400 hours a month I had in the USAF). The standards that the USAF had in providing care, the disregard for patient safety, the complete failure to treat staff with respect, and the bleak outlook for a failing system made the choice to sacrifice my career and leave the USAF a necessary one, one that is repeated by almost 100% of USAF Family docs every time their date of separation arrives. Absolutely NO ONE knows of any FP doc that has stayed in the USAF (although I have seen one stay to go the admin route, and of course you see those on the command level stay on till retirment).

5) I do not expect Wife4Josh to understand all the above; you really have to live it to really appreciate the level of failure going on USAF wide in the primary care clinic.

 

[USAFdoc]

But if you still disagree with me, maybe you could convice me by giving an example of how your complaining (ONE person on its own) has positively changed the general picture?[/QUOTE]

actually Wife4Josh; I do not know of any positive change made in USAF primary care under any circumstances, complaining, suggestions, hard work, letters to congress, Commanders letting the Surg Gen know of problems etc.

the general picture as we speak is bleak.

 

[wife4josh]

To USAFdoc.

Dear Sir,

Would you please read once more the initial post of my thread and its subject?
I wrote:

"I have noticed there are many people here who are clearly unsatisfied with the choice they have made while becoming a military physician. I do understand they have their reasons, and that's certainly not my idea to oppose with their views. I just want to get to know people who see their service in more idealistic terms, as a kind of vocation (if I may say so)
Thanks
Kat"

I have shown you (and other people like you) my respect by making my own thread with a very clear message and a subject directed to very specific people - those who love/like to serve/the idea of serving in the medical corps. I didn't post it as a reply to any of your "hateful anti-military warnings", as it simply makes no sense. You are a civilian and you might say whatever you wish (by the way, maybe it's time to change your screen name?). However you act like you totally neglected my rights towards freedom of speech. You simply tend to warn me before myself, before my own beliefs and ideals. Isn't it lack of respect? I think you have said that your separation was a kind of divorce. Well, if you got divorced with your wife, and she would re-marry, would you keep warning the whole world including her new husband, telling everybody she is the worst nightmare they could ever encounter? Because in my idea it's what you are doing right now when it comes to the military medicine. Would you please be so kind and refrain from posting all that negativity on positive threads? If your calling is to seed hate towards military medicine, please do so elsewhere, where people ask for advice (they might actually want to hear something like that to give themselves reasons to quit considering military service). I would be really grateful if you could show me that minimum of respect - as a prior-officer you know all about respect, right?
Please believe me that I have enough knowledge and experience in life to take the responsibility for the choices I make. You don't have to save me before myself, even if you believe that I am going into the state of self-destruction. That's your perspective, and it's clearly different from mine.


Like I have been told once by a very wise person: military medicine is certainly not for everybody... Maybe it just wasn't for you.

Kind regards,

Kat

 

[orbitsurgMD]

To USAFdoc.

Dear Sir,

Would you please read once more the initial post of my thread and its subject?
I wrote:

"I have noticed there are many people here who are clearly unsatisfied with the choice they have made while becoming a military physician. I do understand they have their reasons, and that's certainly not my idea to oppose with their views. I just want to get to know people who see their service in more idealistic terms, as a kind of vocation (if I may say so)
Thanks
Kat"

I have shown you (and other people like you) my respect by making my own thread with a very clear message and a subject directed to very specific people - those who love/like to serve/the idea of serving in the medical corps. I didn't post it as a reply to any of your "hateful anti-military warnings", as it simply makes no sense. You are a civilian and you might say whatever you wish (by the way, maybe it's time to change your screen name?). However you act like you totally neglected my rights towards freedom of speech. You simply tend to warn me before myself, before my own beliefs and ideals. Isn't it lack of respect? I think you have said that your separation was a kind of divorce. Well, if you got divorced with your wife, and she would re-marry, would you keep warning the whole world including her new husband, telling everybody she is the worst nightmare they could ever encounter? Because in my idea it's what you are doing right now when it comes to the military medicine. Would you please be so kind and refrain from posting all that negativity on positive threads? If your calling is to seed hate towards military medicine, please do so elsewhere, where people ask for advice (they might actually want to hear something like that to give themselves reasons to quit considering military service). I would be really grateful if you could show me that minimum of respect - as a prior-officer you know all about respect, right?
Please believe me that I have enough knowledge and experience in life to take the responsibility for the choices I make. You don't have to save me before myself, even if you believe that I am going into the state of self-destruction. That's your perspective, and it's clearly different from mine.


Like I have been told once by a very wise person: military medicine is certainly not for everybody... Maybe it just wasn't for you.

Kind regards,

Kat

Kat, you wrote:

" I didn't post it as a reply to any of your "hateful anti-military warnings""

Are you actually quoting USAFdoc, or is this your way of labeling what he says as a hateful message? If it is quotation, then from where, please? USAFdoc has at least been consistent. He seems to have real objections to the way the Air Force assigns primary care. He cites real reasons why he feels that way and also how things should be changed. That doesn't seem like unfocused "hateful anti-military warnings" [me quoting you].


It seems like you really object to posters placing critical comments about their experiences with practice in the military. Well, this is a free public thread board, and that is allowed. So far, I can't see where anyone has done anything irresponsible by that. This is not a cheerleading page for military medicine, and it shouldn't be, either. Sorry that seems to disappoint you. The services have legions of recruiters selling their version of truth and fat media and advertising budgets to put in front of the public the messages they would like them to see. They are sure not committed to a balanced view in their efforts.

When I signed up for HPSP, there was no accessible web-based public information about the practice conditions, or the nature of GMO assignment, or tasking of doctors in the military. There was no independent account unless you were knowledgable enough and had access to someone who could tell you their experiences. Thanks to the internet, that has changed.
Does that mean that information now available might be a problem for the services in their efforts to find applicants to their "scholarship" programs [me quoting them, and with rich irony]? I sure hope so. I hope it means that the medical corps and DOD will have to face tough scrutiny across their recruiters desks. I hope it will make them squirm over tough questions. I hope it will make the DOD have to account to the heretofore uninformed about what exactly they have been doing with the billions of U.S. taxpayers' dollars thay have spent on the system they have built, and have to account for why it is now failing to attract prospective doctors, despite having ready money. I hope they will change the way they do tasking, but if they will not change, I hope someone else with the will and authority will force them to change.

Kat, if you can't bear to read or hear criticism about the military, then go call your recruiter. Pick up any major American magazine and look at the service ads. Watch any major sporting event or auto race on cable and watch for the adverts. You will get all the good news you can stand.

 

[wertyjoe]

I will give you guys an opinion of military medicine from an ex-enlisted personnel. I spent 4 years in the Air Force as a kc-135 crew chief. We had a nice looking hospital/clinic on base but thats about as good as it gets.

My wife and I had to go into town to see a doctor most of the time. They either couldn't get you in or didn't provide the services that you needed.

And free healthcare? It doesn't exist in the military. Tricare was the big rage when I was in (I don't know if it still is) but it didn't pay for s**t. Try paying medical bills on an airmans salary. Hell, I barely scraped by and thats with my wife working fulltime, and me having an extra fulltime job working for a sanitation contractor on base.

When I left the military I got a job making $7.50/hr and I thought I was making mad money. And this was in '97!

I recently considered applying for one of those HPSP scholarships but the more I thought about it, I realized it wasn't worth it. Sure you will be an medical officer and will be respected by others but thats it. Pay, lifestyle, and freedom are in the civilian world not the military. Only except one of these scholarships if you want to serve your country and for no other reason.

I had a great experience in the Air Force. I've been all over the world since I was a tanker crew chief. However, knowing what I know now, I wouldn't have enlisted. See, I joined for all the wrong reasons. I needed money for college and they enticed me with the GI Bill. It would have been a lot easier to take out loans or just get a job for a few years instead.

Just a side note, some of my friends received more money from pell grants then I did for the GI Bill. Also, at that time your gi bill counted against you for subsidized loans and pell grants. Nothing like slapping a veteran in the face.

Military perks! There is nothing perky about it. Remember, you pay for it some how.

werty

 

[USAFdoc]

rebuttle;

1) I am not out to "save you" from your decsion(s); I am just out to let the truth be known about certain areas of military medicine. You make your own decisions.

2)the "Perhaps military medicne just wasn't for you" quote has been mentioned several times on this site. My question is exactly who IS military medicne "for". I have have stated; 100% of physicians separated over the last 15 years at my previous base (except one that went the admin route). I was at my 10 year point when I separated (prev enlisted) and we had one doc separate after 18 years, another nurse at 15 years. You and others seem to WANT TO BELIEVE the problem lies with the officers and can't seem to fathom the idea that maybe there are serious problems that are "driving" officers to the separation door.

3) divorce: no I would not go around publishing any negatives about my previous wife if I got divorced, but if she had an affair, yet was telling everyone a bunch of lies like I had the affair etc, then I would speak up and tell the truth. The military advertising about what life is like as a military doctor is almost laughable (no admin hassle, short hours etc).

4) You seem a little too sensitive to be labeling my entry as "lack of respect to you." There is nothing I have stated that is disrespectful of you. Your desire to serve in the US military is admirable; the only thing I know of that you lack is experience with what I have experienced first hand, and that was a failing healthcare system that is USAF primary care. You need not feel disrespected because I disagree with your assessment of military medicine.

5) "Hate mail"; wow, a little over the top huh?

6)If you worked in a clinic and you repeatedly experienced and saw the admin treat fellow workers poorly, you saw a failure to deliver standard of care to patients, if admin decided to run the clinic at 20% staffing for 3 years straight to save $$, if you saw patients repeatedly suffer because of lost labs, and the list goes on...if you worked there, would you choose to stay? I bet you wouldn't, and I didn't, and as stated above, no-one had at that base for 10-15 years. Now maybe you would buck that trend, but again, I bet you wouldn't. Especially if they ignored all suggestions for improvement and the hard work YOU did to try and improve the situation.

6)The only thing I am seeding, is hopefully a desire for those in the system to investigate their choice of vocation, to question what recruiters and senior admin tell them about the state of military medicine, and perhaps let the military know that more and more people know about what is really going on and they need to change it.

 

[USAFdoc]

actually, there may be a thread of hope that you would enjoy military medicine no matter what. Wife4josh meantioned that her expectations were very low because of what she had already expericnced in European medicine.

With that said, if your expectations are low enough, someone may well enjoy military medicine.

 

[wife4josh]

Sir, there is a difference between Eastern and Western Europe, which I have clearly mentioned, so that generalisation wasn't in the best taste.

Eastern Europe = diseased, totally inefficient medical system

Western Europe = in the country where I study: super subsidized, well accesible medical system, with very modern infrastructure. (e.g.1: our patients don't pay for chemo drugs, as they are administered for free within pretty basic medical insurance; e.g.2: dental care for children and young adults under 18 is 100% free; e.g.3: medical insurance for a young family with rather low income costs about $60 a year)

By the way - my university clinic handles all the major referrals from the local U.S. military community. We have even had referrals from Landstuhl, which is not in the same country. All the American patients LOVE that hospital, cause even nurses speak English (which is certainly not their native language). They all make comparisons both with the civilian and military medicine in the USA, and it seems like we have much more to offer...

So as you see Sir, I know both - much better and much worse. But I tend to keep my expectations low, as it's better to step-up rather than to go backwards. It protects the patients and the people I work with against any frustrative attitudes on my side.

I want to make a difference Sir, as I truly believe God gave me that much so I could use it for the right cause, not for my own convenience. Some day I will do it, with all my heart and mind, so help me God...

Would you please accept that?

 

[USAFdoc]

Sir, there is a difference between Eastern and Western Europe, which I have clearly mentioned, so that generalisation wasn't in the best taste.

Eastern Europe = diseased, totally inefficient medical system

Western Europe = in the country where I study: super subsidized, well accesible medical system, with very modern infrastructure. (e.g.1: our patients don't pay for chemo drugs, as they are administered for free within pretty basic medical insurance; e.g.2: dental care for children and young adults under 18 is 100% free; e.g.3: medical insurance for a young family with rather low income costs about $60 a year)

By the way - my university clinic handles all the major referrals from the local U.S. military community. We have even had referrals from Landstuhl, which is not in the same country. All the American patients LOVE that hospital, cause even nurses speak English (which is certainly not their native language). They all make comparisons both with the civilian and military medicine in the USA, and it seems like we have much more to offer...

So as you see Sir, I know both - much better and much worse. But I tend to keep my expectations low, as it's better to step-up rather than to go backwards. It protects the patients and the people I work with against any frustrative attitudes on my side.

I want to make a difference Sir, as I truly believe God gave me that much so I could use it for the right cause, not for my own convenience. Some day I will do it, with all my heart and mind, so help me God...

Would you please accept that?

absolutely.

The Bible says to "do your 'work' as unto the Lord", and believe me, that verse kept me going on many a bad day, in fact it was posted obove my door in my office. If you beleive you have a calling to enter the US military health care system, GO FOR IT with 100%. Your low expectations of what military med might be like, and your faith will both serve you well.

Actually that is what I did and during my 3 years I did get the ear of many people, and the document I mentioned above made it to the surgeon general, congress and others. As of yet, I have seen very little change, but who knows.

May God Bless your work and efforts.

 

[wife4josh]

Sir,

First of all thank you for the encouragement put between the lines of your last message. I really mean it. I copied that verse into my calender - that's where I will look at it the most.

If I may suggest something: You actually sound like you still care and want to see the military medicine flourishing, even if you are not there anymore. Maybe instead of the words of anger and warning us against all the bad, you could start a thread for those who really wish to do their work as unto the Lord.
You mentioned a 15-page document you wrote about changes needed in USAF. You wrote in one of your posts:

"I agree with you, complaining alone is NOT the best way to handle problems. While on active duty I wrote a 15 page document noting USAF primary care problems and several pages of solutions. EVeryone agreed with my paper through my Commander and USAF reps at the Pentagon. Did I see any change.....very little. You have to realize how large and "immovable" the US gov and mil can be unless someone or something lights a "fire under their butt"."

If you really care, please provide us with a copy of that document and set our minds on the need of hard work. The more people start their career while aware they will need to fight for the constructive changes, the better for the military medicine. Maybe some day it will actually happen.

Somewhere in this thread you talked about the military medicine as the worst job in FP, also about the possibility of embarrassing the military about its bad points, etc... Sir, as you said you adhere to higher standards, such words don't suit you, you could more than that. Please don't stain the sense of honor, you still seem to have so deeply instilled in your heart. I truly believe that with your help we could do a much better job, though with a slight adjustment in the way you present it. You wrote:

"The only thing I am seeding, is hopefully a desire for those in the system to investigate their choice of vocation, to question what recruiters and senior admin tell them about the state of military medicine, and perhaps let the military know that more and more people know about what is really going on and they need to change it."

If you still care, please do guide us, but through constructive criticism and a word of encouragement, not through a negative warning. It's perfectly OK to say we get called for hard work, for a way which might be long and dusky, but please reinforce us in this vocation. Please lower the expectations of the people who go for it - as it's Service with a capital S, and no matter what we should expect a lot, but only from ourselves, not from the military we serve.

Please also do not consider your separation as a painful divorce. Maybe from a place you are at right now, you might actually do much more good to the U.S. military medicine, than while on active-duty. After all you might have made the best choice possible due to the situation. Though consider yourself still on "active-duty" towards what you believed in and what you tried to fight for. You seem to have it instilled in your heart and mind - please do not let it go, do not separate from it. It's beautiful and admirable.

May God inspire you in the way you deliver your message. I would be thrilled if you really did take the responsibility of providing us with a positive teaching about negative things which should be changed. Integrity, Service, Excellence - isn't that what we chose/are going to choose for?

With my highest respect,

Kat

 

[USAFdoc]

Sir,


May God inspire you in the way you deliver your message. I would be thrilled if you really did take the responsibility of providing us with a positive teaching about negative things which should be changed. Integrity, Service, Excellence - isn't that what we chose/are going to choose for?

With my highest respect,

Kat

please email me so I can send a copy of my memo. I tried to put it on this site but it is too large, and the site stated I could not email you since you specified that on your SDN sign up.

thanks

USAFDoc

 

[wife4josh]

please email me so I can send a copy of my memo. I tried to put it on this site but it is too large, and the site stated I could not email you since you specified that on your SDN sign up.

thanks

USAFDoc

That's strange cause I didn't choose that option. I will check about it.

Anyways, my e-mail is: [email protected]

thank you

Kat

 

[USAFdoc]

That's strange cause I didn't choose that option. I will check about it.

Anyways, my e-mail is: [email protected]

thank you

Kat

email sent, hope it arrives ok.