Anyone have recent, reliable data on Peds Subspecialty compensation?

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HinduHammer

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M4 here interviewing Peds and another specialty with opportunities to do peds fellowships. So torn. Some reliable data on Subspecialty compensation (particularly GI, PICU, NICU, EM) and other procedural based specialties would be great. Looked at doximity and MGMA and data for these specialties in particular is lacking. Anyone have a link, data, chart or something? Thanks

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NICU, PICU, cards,* EM, GI are probably going to be your best options in terms of pure compensation, more or less in that order.

*Cardiology pays well (at least the cardiologists at my institution are some of the vest paid in the dept) but from what I understand there is an oversaturation of peds cardiologists and it can be hard to find a job.

I think you're right to consider compensation in your career decisions, everyone should. But I will say no amount of compensation can replace having a job you love. Recently I went to visit a friend who was admitted to the adult side of my hospital, I just remember thinking to myself thank goodness I didn't do adult medicine.

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Cards market tough. Lots of people doing super fellowships (cardiac ICU) after cards.

PICU market can be cyclical. Last year seemed tight. This year better. My friend was offered 240k with benefits.

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Cards market tough. Lots of people doing super fellowships (cardiac ICU) after cards.

PICU market can be cyclical. Last year seemed tight. This year better. My friend was offered 240k with benefits.

Pediatric subspecialists are definitely undervalued based on that quote. That's the salary for my full time adult hospitalist job! I can't believe how these salary differences have persisted. It's crazy!
 
Pediatric subspecialists are definitely undervalued based on that quote. That's the salary for my full time adult hospitalist job! I can't believe how these salary differences have persisted. It's crazy!

we care for a larger Medicaid population, and Medicaid generally pays less than Medicare. Plus, you know, kids can’t vote.
 
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M4 here interviewing Peds and another specialty with opportunities to do peds fellowships. So torn. Some reliable data on Subspecialty compensation (particularly GI, PICU, NICU, EM) and other procedural based specialties would be great. Looked at doximity and MGMA and data for these specialties in particular is lacking. Anyone have a link, data, chart or something? Thanks

I feel like both MGMA has decent data on those specialties. They roughly match up with the private practice offers I've seen from my fellowship.

Academics are obviously different.
 
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we care for a larger Medicaid population, and Medicaid generally pays less than Medicare. Plus, you know, kids can’t vote.

Doesn't change the fact that it sucks and doesn't make sense when considering the role of pediatricians in public health.
 
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Kids also have less comorbidities and this are cheaper to care for and more difficult to bill for. Then there’s bundled care for inpatients which can be a blessing or a curse... typically a curse for non-profits and a blessing for private, for-profits.
 
Pediatric subspecialists are definitely undervalued based on that quote. That's the salary for my full time adult hospitalist job! I can't believe how these salary differences have persisted. It's crazy!
Keep in mind that almost all Pediatric subspecialists other than neonatologists work in academics, so their starting salary is going to be way below their average salary. Academic salaries are structured in increase frequently at a faster rate than inflation, with especially big jumps at the promotions to associate and full professor.

In contrast lots of private outpatient clinics are offering nearly what that PICU doctor was offered just for general pediatricians. However the initial salary at those clinics is also the final salary. Maybe there might be some productivity bonuses or raises to adjust for inflation, but overall the salary you come in at is the salary you are stuck at.
 
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Cards market tough. Lots of people doing super fellowships (cardiac ICU) after cards.

PICU market can be cyclical. Last year seemed tight. This year better. My friend was offered 240k with benefits.

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Yeah the academic cards doc I worked with at my school said Cards is oversaturated and most jobs aren't really interventional or procedural; I think I'd like to do something procedural.

I feel like both MGMA has decent data on those specialties. They roughly match up with the private practice offers I've seen from my fellowship.

Academics are obviously different.

What fellowship are you pursuing? The more I think about it, I think I'd like my practice to have a component of clinic and procedure days. I guess GI would be the only thing that fits the bill?

Looking at the MGMA salaries is disappointing. Some specialties (intensivists) "only" pay 100k less than adult counterparts, while some like GI and Heme/Onc pay fully half of their adult counterparts.
 
Keep in mind that almost all Pediatric subspecialists other than neonatologists work in academics, so their starting salary is going to be way below their average salary. Academic salaries are structured in increase frequently at a faster rate than inflation, with especially big jumps at the promotions to associate and full professor.

In contrast lots of private outpatient clinics are offering nearly what that PICU doctor was offered just for general pediatricians. However the initial salary at those clinics is also the final salary. Maybe there might be some productivity bonuses or raises to adjust for inflation, but overall the salary you come in at is the salary you are stuck at.

Yeah but that's cause the academic salaries blow so much to begin with. Starting academic salary for gen peds where I did med school was what not too far off you can make as an FM NP in private practice.
 
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Keep in mind that almost all Pediatric subspecialists other than neonatologists work in academics, so their starting salary is going to be way below their average salary. Academic salaries are structured in increase frequently at a faster rate than inflation, with especially big jumps at the promotions to associate and full professor.

In contrast lots of private outpatient clinics are offering nearly what that PICU doctor was offered just for general pediatricians. However the initial salary at those clinics is also the final salary. Maybe there might be some productivity bonuses or raises to adjust for inflation, but overall the salary you come in at is the salary you are stuck at.

The salaries are always lower compared to their adult counterparts. It can be rationalized any way you want, and it's still unfair and sucks.
 
Yeah but that's cause the academic salaries blow so much to begin with. Starting academic salary for gen peds where I did med school was what not too far off you can make as an FM NP in private practice.
I don't know what your school was offering or what you think an FM NP makes. However I just finished a job hunt and most of the offers I got for general Pediatrics were in line with what family physicians make, and the differential between academic and private salaries was less than 20% (and usually no difference at all if you looked at pay per clinical hour, or pay per patient).

Was your school somewhere really nice? I have heard of people taking insanely underpaid jobs to work in costal SoCal, or to live near certain ski resorts.
 
I don't know what your school was offering or what you think an FM NP makes. However I just finished a job hunt and most of the offers I got for general Pediatrics were in line with what family physicians make, and the differential between academic and private salaries was less than 20% (and usually no difference at all if you looked at pay per clinical hour, or pay per patient).

Was your school somewhere really nice? I have heard of people taking insanely underpaid jobs to work in costal SoCal, or to live near certain ski resorts.

Its a larger academic center but not in a crazy desirable area. Starting salary was 160k....which is pretty in line with what the AAP reports is starting salary.


These days NPs are pretty frequently walking out and starting at 100K+ right off the bat. If you look at the NP subreddit, many new or 1 year NP grads are starting at over 100.
 
The salaries are always lower compared to their adult counterparts. It can be rationalized any way you want, and it's still unfair and sucks.

I will rationalize a little further because too often job opportunities here are reduced to potential income. Other things to consider are job satisfaction, burnout rate, non-monetary benefits.

Some good data to suggest we have a leg up on our adult counterparts...


Leigh JP, Tancredi DJ, Kravitz RL. Physician career satisfaction within specialties. BMC Health Serv Res. 2009;9:166. Published 2009 Sep 16. doi:10.1186/1472-6963-9-166

"After adjusting for physician, practice, and community characteristics, the following specialties had significantly higher satisfaction levels than family medicine: pediatric emergency medicine (regression coefficient = 0.349); geriatric medicine (0.323); other pediatric subspecialties (0.270); neonatal/prenatal medicine (0.266); internal medicine and pediatrics (combined practice) (0.250); pediatrics (0.250); dermatology (0.249);and child and adolescent psychiatry (0.203). The following specialties had significantly lower satisfaction levels than family medicine: neurological surgery (-0.707); pulmonary critical care medicine (-0.273); nephrology (-0.206); and obstetrics and gynecology (-0.188)."

But also

"We also found satisfaction was significantly and positively related to income and employment in a medical school but negatively associated with more than 50 work-hours per-week, being a full-owner of the practice, greater reliance on managed care revenue, and uncontrollable lifestyle."

So, there are data to look at and make a more informed decision here aside from $$$...be honest with yourself about what you want out of your job, money isn't everything...or maybe it is, for you.

I personally like that everyone I work with takes a paycut to be there...ensures that I work with people that actually want to be at work.
 
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I will rationalize a little further because too often job opportunities here are reduced to potential income. Other things to consider are job satisfaction, burnout rate, non-monetary benefits.

I agree. In fact, I think money probably should only be the tie breaker only after you've decided that you'd enjoy 2 or 3 specialties relatively equally. If you're happy with the actual medicine you're practicing, it makes it all easier to swallow.

I'd also argue that there are a lot of people out there actively choosing jobs that limit their potential earnings. Like the general pediatricians not covering the Newborn Nursery, not having weekend hours, trying to skate by on 3.5 days of clinic per week or sharing mommy call across multiple peds practices so the call burden is 1:42 or none at all. There's also a fairly significant lack of entrepreneurial spirit in pediatric subspecialties. Outside of Peds GI practices, it's so rare to see any private practice providers in any other fields, even though I think in a number of bigger cities there's probably enough to support private practices in fields like pulm, and neurology. In particular, I think with the right set up, a behavioral/developmental pediatrician could pull in massive amounts of money. If more people went into PP, then the academic centers would have to pay higher salaries to retain talent.
 
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I will rationalize a little further because too often job opportunities here are reduced to potential income. Other things to consider are job satisfaction, burnout rate, non-monetary benefits.
That's a good argument for choosing Pediatrics over adult medicine, but is it really a good argument for pursuing subspecialty training over being a generalist? None of the studies on the site you linked seemed to support an increased satisfaction among subspecialists.
 
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I'd also argue that there are a lot of people out there actively choosing jobs that limit their potential earnings. Like the general pediatricians not covering the Newborn Nursery, not having weekend hours, trying to skate by on 3.5 days of clinic per week or sharing mommy call across multiple peds practices so the call burden is 1:42 or none at all. .
I don't see that as a problem. Less money is fine, as long as you are working less in exchange for the pay cut. Actually I see the ability to titrate your work hours as another big advantage of staying a generalist. You can be a generalist for as little as 0.2 FTE or work as much as 3.0 FTE, and can titrate month by month depending on your family situation, job satisfaction, and level of burnout. If you want to change your work environment you can go across the road to any one of a dozen practices in your town or even hang up your own shingle. Its flexible

Pediatric subspecialists, on the other hand, are usually hired into a department of 2-4 people in an academic university, and the job is the job. 0.5 FTE subspecialist positions are hard to find, and if your department is fully staffed overtime usually means going to the urgent care down the road on your non-call weekend. If you want to leave you're doing another national job hunt and probably moving to a new state at the end of it.
 
What fellowship are you pursuing? The more I think about it, I think I'd like my practice to have a component of clinic and procedure days. I guess GI would be the only thing that fits the bill?

Looking at the MGMA salaries is disappointing. Some specialties (intensivists) "only" pay 100k less than adult counterparts, while some like GI and Heme/Onc pay fully half of their adult counterparts.

yes they pay less, but they aren't really the same job either. Adult EM makes more than peds EM, but they also do a significantly higher number of procedures and move through the volume much more. they just have more adults out there. the adult EM docs have more intense shifts day to day in terms of numbers. adult cards makes more but there are tens of thousands of people in any given city with HTN. there are generally hundreds of kids in a big city with congenital heart lesions. still a lot but way way less.

PICU and adult ICU aren't the same. I haven't been an adult doctor but looking at friends in the adult side, the do joint pull/crit and work a week in the ICU and a week in clinic and they alternate. But often, the pulm/crit guys are managing the vents alone so their week isn't as intense but they are working every single week. in residency, the PICU docs worked a week of intense PICU taking care of everything, a week of backup working a couple nights, a week of sedation (which is very light) and a week off. much less money, but also much less hours. GI docs on the adult side spend half their time doing procedures whereas most peds outpatient procedural specialties spend a morning in the OR (or endoscopy suite) per week. when you add in the academic component, peds docs are generally working less.

if we work ortho hours, I would bet that we would all make close to ortho money (assuming we could have a practice structure like ortho).
 
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Would highly recommend subspecializing.

When the NP army of the dead comes, it'll be primary care to fall first.
 
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Would highly recommend subspecializing.

When the NP army of the dead comes, it'll be primary care to fall first.
Alternatively get a job as fast as you can, work a lot of extra shifts while the demand for physicians is at an all time high, and then you don't need to worry about the future because you have already paid off your house.
 
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I agree. In fact, I think money probably should only be the tie breaker only after you've decided that you'd enjoy 2 or 3 specialties relatively equally. If you're happy with the actual medicine you're practicing, it makes it all easier to swallow.

I'd also argue that there are a lot of people out there actively choosing jobs that limit their potential earnings. Like the general pediatricians not covering the Newborn Nursery, not having weekend hours, trying to skate by on 3.5 days of clinic per week or sharing mommy call across multiple peds practices so the call burden is 1:42 or none at all. There's also a fairly significant lack of entrepreneurial spirit in pediatric subspecialties. Outside of Peds GI practices, it's so rare to see any private practice providers in any other fields, even though I think in a number of bigger cities there's probably enough to support private practices in fields like pulm, and neurology. In particular, I think with the right set up, a behavioral/developmental pediatrician could pull in massive amounts of money. If more people went into PP, then the academic centers would have to pay higher salaries to retain talent.

Im big on medicine as a calling, and I'm sacrificing a tremendous lifetime income to do peds instead of adults from someone finishing med peds training and having recruiter emails for adult hospitalist jobs (granted undesirable ones) paying north of 350k staring me in the face. I agree with you in general, and I wouldnt advocate someone not pursue their calling if it was leaps and bounds above everything else, but I do think certain peds subspecialties e.g. ID and heme/onc are approaching a place where I would lose a degree of job satisfaction simply from feeling undervalued for my work, and I think the decision to pursue/not pursue those fields is a little more than a 50/50 tie between an alternative field. Everyone will have their own threshold for where that point is, but eh
 
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Im big on medicine as a calling, and I'm sacrificing a tremendous lifetime income to do peds instead of adults from someone finishing med peds training and having recruiter emails for adult hospitalist jobs (granted undesirable ones) paying north of 350k staring me in the face. I agree with you in general, and I wouldnt advocate someone not pursue their calling if it was leaps and bounds above everything else, but I do think certain peds subspecialties e.g. ID and heme/onc are approaching a place where I would lose a degree of job satisfaction simply from feeling undervalued for my work, and I think the decision to pursue/not pursue those fields is a little more than a 50/50 tie between an alternative field. Everyone will have their own threshold for where that point is, but eh

As someone who also is finishing med-peds residency, I agree 100%. While my hospital's patients on the adult side may be more complex, my job often feels easier on the adult side, and not just because I enjoy it more. The emotional challenges of managing a sick pediatric patient dwarf those those of managing an ill adult patient. So I will continue, despite the fact that I am only pursuing adult medicine after residency, to rail against the notion that pediatricians should be paid less. To me, it's just another instance of the devaluing of emotional work, although admittedly, that's a loaded phrase, and we could discuss it for weeks.
 
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Im big on medicine as a calling, and I'm sacrificing a tremendous lifetime income to do peds instead of adults from someone finishing med peds training and having recruiter emails for adult hospitalist jobs (granted undesirable ones) paying north of 350k staring me in the face. I agree with you in general, and I wouldnt advocate someone not pursue their calling if it was leaps and bounds above everything else, but I do think certain peds subspecialties e.g. ID and heme/onc are approaching a place where I would lose a degree of job satisfaction simply from feeling undervalued for my work, and I think the decision to pursue/not pursue those fields is a little more than a 50/50 tie between an alternative field. Everyone will have their own threshold for where that point is, but eh
But it is fun to throw the adult programs under the bus from time to time in meetings. Just saying.

#thingsmoneycantbuy
 
we care for a larger Medicaid population, and Medicaid generally pays less than Medicare. Plus, you know, kids can’t vote.
Treating kids doesn't translate into increased shareholder value.
 
peds urgent care is >$325k in the midwest? way way more than PEM. and pulmonology and GI are that high?

damn it. should have done urgent care.
 
I can't see the above video for some reason but color me skeptical.
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peds urgent care is >$325k in the midwest?
Maybe in flyover states and remote areas. Peds urgent care isn't really that high in top 10 MSA cities. PICU, NICU and Cards are still the highest paid followed by EM and GI
 
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Just remember to compare apples to apples when you're looking at salary data and job offers. The MGMA data above is showing "total compensation" which includes base salary, retirement plan, insurance, paid time off, bonuses, etc.
 
It’s not a video it’s a PDF of the mgma
I was able to look at the PDF finally. A lot of the peds salaries seem accurate but I don't know where they're getting that urgent care figure from. All I can think is that they might have been dealing with a very small sample size. How else would you explain the $125k regional disparity?
 
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Like kids? Want to do a lot of procedures and make a lot of money? Okay working more than most if not all peds subspecialties? Do surgery or anesthesia and then do a peds fellowship.
 
I did both peds and anesthesia, originally planned on doing picu. As a generalist anesthesia attending, it's now tough to think about going back for a three year picu fellowship only to make ~100-150k less than I'm making now. Doesn't mean I won't do it, but tough. One year peds anesthesia fellowship to make a couple bucks extra? Much more palatable.
 
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I did both peds and anesthesia, originally planned on doing picu. As a generalist anesthesia attending, it's now tough to think about going back for a three year picu fellowship only to make ~100-150k less than I'm making now. Doesn't mean I won't do it, but tough. One year peds anesthesia fellowship to make a couple bucks extra? Much more palatable.
This just demonstrates the redundncy waste created by what in the end are arbitrary standards like board certification. It's over-credentialism. I'm sure with the training you already have, you could walk into a PICU and more than hold your own.
 
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I did both peds and anesthesia, originally planned on doing picu. As a generalist anesthesia attending, it's now tough to think about going back for a three year picu fellowship only to make ~100-150k less than I'm making now. Doesn't mean I won't do it, but tough. One year peds anesthesia fellowship to make a couple bucks extra? Much more palatable.
What'd you mean by you did both peds and anesthesia? I'm assuming you did an anesthesia residency followed by a peds anesthesia fellowship or did you happen to start with peds residency and re-applied to anesthesia midway or after!!
 
Completed peds residency, then did anesthesia. The goal from the beginning was the academic picu/anesthesia acute care medicine God path, but once you're six years in each successive year starts to look a little tougher and tougher from an opportunity cost standpoint. I'm trying to tell myself I'm just taking a couple years off to pay down some debt and solidify the anesthesia skills, but it's going to be incredibly rough to go back to a fellow's salary.
 
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Completed peds residency, then did anesthesia. The goal from the beginning was the academic picu/anesthesia acute care medicine God path, but once you're six years in each successive year starts to look a little tougher and tougher from an opportunity cost standpoint. I'm trying to tell myself I'm just taking a couple years off to pay down some debt and solidify the anesthesia skills, but it's going to be incredibly rough to go back to a fellow's salary.
It makes sense why you had to go that route but you'd be able to pay off your debt in under 5 years if you don't upgrade your lifestyle much since even the most cushy Anesthesiology gigs pay out $400-450k+and some on par with surgeons while most PICU gigs range around $300-330k
 
Yeah, if I have any chance of dragging myself back to fellowship I have to not get used to the salary. My one impulse buy as an attending thus far has been a $250 guitar. Loans will be paid off in a year.
 
I was able to look at the PDF finally. A lot of the peds salaries seem accurate but I don't know where they're getting that urgent care figure from. All I can think is that they might have been dealing with a very small sample size. How else would you explain the $125k regional disparity?
Fair. Probably true
 
How else would you explain the $125k regional disparity?
I wouldn't really doubt the $125k disparity but what's surprising is it's for urgent care. One of the peds cards attending in my program who is interviewing to move to DC said she had two offers, one in DC and the other in Manassas, VA with the latter paying almost $100k more in base salary over the former
 
I wouldn't really doubt the $125k disparity but what's surprising is it's for urgent care. One of the peds cards attending in my program who is interviewing to move to DC said she had two offers, one in DC and the other in Manassas, VA with the latter paying almost $100k more in base salary over the former
Well the one in DC is probably academic and at a prestigious institution. Big name places know they don't have to pay that well to attract physicians.
 
Well the one in DC is probably academic and at a prestigious institution. Big name places know they don't have to pay that well to attract physicians.
Not really, both were PP groups with an identical number of physicians/surgeons mix except that the one in DC was in downtown while Masassas is an hour away. Apart from the difference in base salary, other compensation, work hours & benefits are almost the same
 
Sorry guys, perspective is always helpful. If you can’t live on 250-300k a year as a PICU doc, then you need to re-evaluate your lifestyle. Families making a combined income of 60-100k a year do just fine and are more than happy.
 
Sorry guys, perspective is always helpful. If you can’t live on 250-300k a year as a PICU doc, then you need to re-evaluate your lifestyle. Families making a combined income of 60-100k a year do just fine and are more than happy.

250-300k is dramatically more than many pediatricians in academics make. 50-100% more. On a 10 year repayment plan student loans can make 160 more like 110-120 (at least for the first 10 years of attending income), but then you're looking at being into your 40's before making your "physician income". It's still plenty more than most non-physicians make, but with regard to your example if you asked the parents of a family of 4 making 60k to describe their financial situation, I suspect the average answer is not going to be "doing just fine and more than happy". If you use the EPI family budget calculator, youre looking at an income of more like 75-80k to establish a "modest yet adequate" standard of living in most cities. I think these are important things to at least consider for trainees looking to their futures
 
250-300k is dramatically more than many pediatricians in academics make. 50-100% more. On a 10 year repayment plan student loans can make 160 more like 110-120 (at least for the first 10 years of attending income), but then you're looking at being into your 40's before making your "physician income". It's still plenty more than most non-physicians make, but with regard to your example if you asked the parents of a family of 4 making 60k to describe their financial situation, I suspect the average answer is not going to be "doing just fine and more than happy". If you use the EPI family budget calculator, youre looking at an income of more like 75-80k to establish a "modest yet adequate" standard of living in most cities. I think these are important things to at least consider for trainees looking to their futures

Also considering a pediatrician has a minimum of 7 years of very grueling post-college training, often with loans. If people in finance and comp sci make six figures straight out of undergrad, I don't think it's unreasonable for a physician to want to make more than that.
 
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