Anyone get out of RoS for Ontario?

[UniqueDoc]

Hello! I have been looking at the old threads regarding the RoS attached to IMG residency positions. It seems there are a lot of people in difficult situations due to living away from family/living in isolated communities where they find themselves unhappy.

Does anybody know of cases where someone completed residency attached to an RoS and did not actually have to do it or pay the full amount of money back? I am aware that it can be paid for if one chooses to leave. However it comes at quite a hefty price - about about 100 000 at least per year of training.

Any success stories/ personal experiences would be very informative.

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[Substance]

Hello! I have been looking at the old threads regarding the RoS attached to IMG residency positions. It seems there are a lot of people in difficult situations due to living away from family/living in isolated communities where they find themselves unhappy.

Does anybody know of cases where someone completed residency attached to an RoS and did not actually have to do it or pay the full amount of money back? I am aware that it can be paid for if one chooses to leave. However it comes at quite a hefty price - about about 100 000 at least per year of training.

Any success stories/ personal experiences would be very informative.

I will start by saying that Canada owes no IMG any residency position - an IMG-level education is of lower value and quality than a CMG or AMG education. As such, the government asks that for you to be trained to practice in Canada, you must go to the middle of nowhere* to practice for a few years. I think that IMGs should, except for the most exceptional of circumstances, not be permitted to enter residency in Canada. Should I be a PD in the future, my program will have approximately zero IMGs.

*That being said, the ROS agreement for Ontario is the most toothless contract I've ever seen. It limits you from practicing in - get this - Toronto (the city proper; the surrounding communities like York, Newmarket, etc are fair game ), and Ottawa. That's all. You can move to Oakville for cryin-out-loud!

 

[UniqueDoc]

First, the purpose of my thread was to ask a question, not seek a random opinion about IMGs and whether a RoS is appropriate or not. Good luck becoming a program director with that kind of attitude. Some of the best physicians in Canada and USA (including Beth Israel and Johns Hopkins) are IMGs from various countries you have probably have never visited, nor explored their medical education systems. Have you attended every single international medical school? Can you really accurately say that an IMG education is of lower value than a CMG or AMG education? Unfortunately, your narrow perspective on medical education has lead you to miss out on recognizing the value of some of the brightest and most capable physicians out there. Secondly, during residency, an IMG resident serves the people of Canada for little remuneration, or sleep for that matter. Many of them have families, loved ones, and individuals they are caretakers for and cannot afford to live far away from them. An international medical graduate may enter residency intending to fulfill the RoS, but life circumstances may change during those 2-5 plus years. IMGs are humans too and may have obligations outside of work that they must fulfill, just as you probably have.

If anyone has a sensible answer to my question please do let me know.

 

[Substance]

I answered your question.

Once you sign the contract, you are committed to it or required to pay it back in full.

The contract, however, is so weak that it should not be an issue. The cure to having to live in Brampton is a car. Again, it is a non-issue.

IMG education is in my opinion of less value because there is no way to verify the quality of the training. Every school in Canada or the US will produce at least a competent doctor most of the time. I cannot say the same for schools anywhere else, and to assume that they do is wrong.

 

[UniqueDoc]

You are clearly misinformed about return of service obligations and areas of practice. Please do your research before posting advice about where RoS can be fulfilled. No one assumed all IMGs have a high quality medical education but to generalize that they receive a low quality of training due to lack of verification is wrong. Again, this thread is open to whoever wants to reply to the initial post, not those who wish to bash IMGs.

 

[Giemsa]

Does anybody know of cases where someone completed residency attached to an RoS and did not actually have to do it or pay the full amount of money back?

No.

Everyone I know fulfilled the contracts they signed.

 

[UniqueDoc]

No.

Everyone I know fulfilled the contracts they signed.

Thanks Giemsa.

 

[MontereyMD]

In 2014 there are hundred and hundreds of CSA's of Canadian citizens who were born in Canada or grew up in Canada who are studying medicine or graduate from a non Canadian medical school. The good news is that these Canadians are familiar with or even grew up in these locations that require a ROS. So there is no problem to fill these programs with eager Canadians who love to work in these areas. One thing that you will find about those who grow up in Canada is that a persons word or signature on a contract is held to the utmost of esteem. In Canada "yes" means "yes".....in some other countries "yes" can mean "maybe" "no" or "perhaps".

 

[UniqueDoc]

Thanks Monterey. That makes sense.

 

[UniqueDoc]

Hi Sidefx, the reason I made the previous comment is because Brampton would be a decent place to live - no cure needed. I think many IMGs wouldn't mind living there to do the ROS. However, it is still in the GTA and not eligible for the ROS. If you look at this website it may provide some clarity on areas in the GTA:

http://toronto.about.com/od/communitieslivingspace/a/gta_cities.htm

 

[UniqueDoc]

In most extreme cases, I think some end up RoS contracts end up being completed up in Sudbury and Thunder Bay. I am sure there are some who wouldn't mind those areas but others may find them quite isolated.

 

[Substance]

You are pretty ignorant to generalize like that. Sure, often students who go abroad to study medicine are ones who couldn't quite cut it in Canada. That does not mean they are all lesser quality candidates than CMGs. Even within Canada there is an enormous variation between provinces as to how difficult it is to get in to medical school. I guarantee you that a large percentage of IMGs coming from Ontario outscored and had better CV's than many CMGs from prairie province and east coast medical schools. You can thank Ontario not limiting its medical schools to in-province students like most other provinces. So your assertion that CMGs are higher-achieving students, although often true, is not by any means always the case. You are also pretty ignorant and ethnocentric if you think medical education in Canada is somehow of higher quality than other commonwealth countries like Australia and Ireland where many IMGs are educated. I personally know a number of IMGs who scored above 90th percentile on Canadian and US board exams... but yeah clearly IMGs are all "inferior candidates" and their medical education is of "lower quality". My point is, don't paint every IMG with one brush.

You do make a few good points. The medical school admissions system in Ontario is a bit strange in that it is the only one that does not have a provincial quota attached to it. The statistics of admission for other schools, however, are still in the same general range for the non-Ontario schools in MCAT and GPA (3.9 and up, 30+), so I am not sure whether the average scores would change that much at most schools if there were no quotas.

The unlucky people who do not get admitted to medical school the first time could reapply later rather than rush down to the Carib for an easy way out. I knew a fellow who tried four times to get in, but finally did it and is now a very successful orthopedic surgeon. Conversely I know many Carib students who are still trying to get a position years after finishing because they didn't want to make their applications better. There are a hardworking lucky few who, given the combination of hard work and general circumstances, manage to get residency positions here after doing the Carib, but they are in the minority.

IMG education is often, not always, unverifiable. You are correct in saying that many countries, particularly the Commonwealth ones, have extremely high standards for medical education; I would argue that in some cases the education is better. In my experience that has been true, with Commonwealth and Israeli-trained residents being quite adept. On the other hand, second-and-third-world medical education is a mixed bag, with both great and absolutely dangerous applicants. It is no fault of their own - they got the education they could get at the time, but to say that it is par with the standards of Canada is incorrect. It's not hard for a residency program in SK to take a subpar IMG to keep the funding pipeline going and to scut out on the wards.

I know a girl with an MD from a second-world nation who, instead of going the IMG route, went to a Canadian medical school and is now a surgeon. She realized that her education in her home country would not be given the same weight as one obtained here, and she was right. Those prejudices in my opinion are justified, and I am certainly not the only one who holds them.

To paint them all with the same brush is unfortunate, I do agree, but I cannot see a way to verify medical school quality abroad without incurring more cost than its worth.

 

[Substance]

Is he not correct? I read on the official website that in Ontario anything outside of Ottawa and GTA is fair game for RoS. Although I do think "GTA" would include Oakville and the other suburbs obviously.

If you keep checking around, they have a map that outlines the places you can work. It's actually pretty good.

 

[AStark]

You are pretty ignorant to generalize like that. Sure, often students who go abroad to study medicine are ones who couldn't quite cut it in Canada. That does not mean they are all lesser quality candidates than CMGs. Even within Canada there is an enormous variation between provinces as to how difficult it is to get in to medical school. I guarantee you that a large percentage of IMGs coming from Ontario outscored and had better CV's than many CMGs from prairie province and east coast medical schools. You can thank Ontario not limiting its medical schools to in-province students like most other provinces. So your assertion that CMGs are higher-achieving students, although often true, is not by any means always the case. You are also pretty ignorant and ethnocentric if you think medical education in Canada is somehow of higher quality than other commonwealth countries like Australia and Ireland where many IMGs are educated. I personally know a number of IMGs who scored above 90th percentile on Canadian and US board exams... but yeah clearly IMGs are all "inferior candidates" and their medical education is of "lower quality". My point is, don't paint every IMG with one brush.

You know, it's these sorts of comments that represent the typically ignorant, self-important attitudes that people from Ontario seem to exemplify - especially when they're wrong. First, McMaster gives first preference to about 90% of its spaces to Ontario residents. Second, Western favours SWOMEN residents. Third, Ottawa favours Ottawa-area residents. Only Queen's and UofT lack geographic preference. I suppose that's something of a disadvantage for GTA residents, but it's not as though undergrad is so utterly arduous that capable applicants can't get in, especially if they give it more than one go (and the *evidence* shows that IMGs apply less often than CMGs, and some do not apply at all to Canadian medical schools).

Anyway, as a graduate of one of those evidently inferior east coast medical schools who obviously must not be all that high-achieving (not even doing postgrad training in vaunted Ontario), I find your comments to be ignorant and Ontario-centric. Also for the record, I know a number of IMG residents, the best of whom are "okay", and several others who have poor clinical skills and limited ability to work independently. Not that all CMGs are great - certainly some who end up coming east from, say, Toronto for residency tend to arrogant and not especially good either. In general, though, IMGs are absolutely weaker clinically; even if they have strong knowledge, they don't have the experience of judgement to apply it appropriately.

 

[Medstart108]

You know, it's these sorts of comments that represent the typically ignorant, self-important attitudes that people from Ontario seem to exemplify - especially when they're wrong. First, McMaster gives first preference to about 90% of its spaces to Ontario residents. Second, Western favours SWOMEN residents. Third, Ottawa favours Ottawa-area residents. Only Queen's and UofT lack geographic preference. I suppose that's something of a disadvantage for GTA residents, but it's not as though undergrad is so utterly arduous that capable applicants can't get in, especially if they give it more than one go (and the *evidence* shows that IMGs apply less often than CMGs, and some do not apply at all to Canadian medical schools).

Anyway, as a graduate of one of those evidently inferior east coast medical schools who obviously must not be all that high-achieving (not even doing postgrad training in vaunted Ontario), I find your comments to be ignorant and Ontario-centric. Also for the record, I know a number of IMG residents, the best of whom are "okay", and several others who have poor clinical skills and limited ability to work independently. Not that all CMGs are great - certainly some who end up coming east from, say, Toronto for residency tend to arrogant and not especially good either. In general, though, IMGs are absolutely weaker clinically; even if they have strong knowledge, they don't have the experience of judgement to apply it appropriately.

At least with the IP bias it is coming from a place of truth. Suppose you are one of those 6 million GTA residents. You have 1 IP school, Mac, and essentially 2 med schools that have no bias towards or against you and every other medical school in Canada has a bias against you.

For those born rurally, the government seems to allow you not only to stay rural but also to move to the city with no problems. For those born in the city, well you are a horrible person that only wants to stay in the city and as such we should place barriers against you for med school.

Excuse me but how is this fair? This reminds me a bit of affirmative action in the US and in India, where unchangeable factors are used for or against you in the admissions process. Does this encourage resentment? Of course it does, just like it would do in any other place in the world.

I don't think people from Ontario are arrogant in this case, maybe we are in other cases, but honestly. 6 million people in the GTA = 1 IP school (for all 14 million Ontarians, this school is McMaster which also happens to have a 5% acceptance rate. Honestly, the only "hope" you have if you are from the GTA is a school with a 5% acceptance rate, you're kidding me right), 2 schools (for all 34 million Canadians) 3 med schools in Ontario (10%-66% spots for those not from their region), 7 OP med schools (10% spots for people not from their province).

Nova Scotia (just using it as an example) = 1 million = 1 IP school, 2 schools (for all 34 million Canadians), 3 med schools in Ontario (10-66% spots for those not from their region), 7 OP med schools (10% spots for people not from their province)

So basically you have 6x the amount of competition if you are from the GTA than if you are from Nova Scotia. You wonder why there may be a little bitterness? Lets not even start with all the subsidies people from Eastern Canada get from Ontario.

Also, A-Stark, you must know that competition for med school gets dramatically harder and harder every year. As I said above, this year, Mac Medical School hit a 5% acceptance rate. Speaking to residents, most are just in amazement at what people have to do to get into medical school these days. People have to spend nearly their entire undergraduate careers preparing for application to medical school, its no longer a case of "having undergrad to decide what to do in life". You need to decide in high school if you are to have any chance of getting into medical school in Ontario or BC.

Since a lot of CMGs love to use academic elitism in their arguments against IMGs, I'd thought I'd explore the issue further. As someone from the East coast who also did not enter medical school at the levels of competition med school is at today, you have absolutely no clue what the situation is like for people from the GTA or BC. How can you constantly comment against IMGs going abroad when you don't have personal experience with the insane competition levels for medicine and most importantly do not have your dreams determined/burdened by these competition levels. You tell people to reapply and reapply and spend years of their life on hold when in all likelihood you yourself waltzed into medical school based on your regional background? You stated above that a lot of CSAs don't even bother applying to Canada. Well first of all, some of them can easily tell they won't get in due to grades being below cutoffs. Second of all, some of them are from high school who can see with their own 2 eyes how competitive medical school is getting, and can guess that their chances aren't very good if they stay in Canada. CSAs are predominately from the GTA or BC, where the competition is the highest. A good chunk would probably have made it into medicine easily if they were born/raised in any other province in Canada or the US or the UK. Its almost ridiculous that you are against IMGs when in all likelihood if you were "unfortunately" born in the GTA or BC you yourself would be considering the IMG route.

tl dr - have a bit more sympathy for those studying abroad as your path to med school was a lot easier than for most and a good chunk of CSAs are highly intelligent and would have been in medical school if it wasn't for regional bias

 

[Substance]

At least with the IP bias it is coming from a place of truth. Suppose you are one of those 6 million GTA residents. You have 1 IP school, Mac, and essentially 2 med schools that have no bias towards or against you and every other medical school in Canada has a bias against you.

For those born rurally, the government seems to allow you not only to stay rural but also to move to the city with no problems. For those born in the city, well you are a horrible person that only wants to stay in the city and as such we should place barriers against you for med school.

Excuse me but how is this fair? This reminds me a bit of affirmative action in the US and in India, where unchangeable factors are used for or against you in the admissions process. Does this encourage resentment? Of course it does, just like it would do in any other place in the world.

I don't think people from Ontario are arrogant in this case, maybe we are in other cases, but honestly. 6 million people in the GTA = 1 IP school (for all 14 million Ontarians, this school is McMaster which also happens to have a 5% acceptance rate. Honestly, the only "hope" you have if you are from the GTA is a school with a 5% acceptance rate, you're kidding me right), 2 schools (for all 34 million Canadians) 3 med schools in Ontario (10%-66% spots for those not from their region), 7 OP med schools (10% spots for people not from their province).

Nova Scotia (just using it as an example) = 1 million = 1 IP school, 2 schools (for all 34 million Canadians), 3 med schools in Ontario (10-66% spots for those not from their region), 7 OP med schools (10% spots for people not from their province)

So basically you have 6x the amount of competition if you are from the GTA than if you are from Nova Scotia. You wonder why there may be a little bitterness? Lets not even start with all the subsidies people from Eastern Canada get from Ontario.

Also, A-Stark, you must know that competition for med school gets dramatically harder and harder every year. As I said above, this year, Mac Medical School hit a 5% acceptance rate. Speaking to residents, most are just in amazement at what people have to do to get into medical school these days. People have to spend nearly their entire undergraduate careers preparing for application to medical school, its no longer a case of "having undergrad to decide what to do in life". You need to decide in high school if you are to have any chance of getting into medical school in Ontario or BC.

Since a lot of CMGs love to use academic elitism in their arguments against IMGs, I'd thought I'd explore the issue further. As someone from the East coast who also did not enter medical school at the levels of competition med school is at today, you have absolutely no clue what the situation is like for people from the GTA or BC. How can you constantly comment against IMGs going abroad when you don't have personal experience with the insane competition levels for medicine and most importantly do not have your dreams determined/burdened by these competition levels. You tell people to reapply and reapply and spend years of their life on hold when you yourself waltzed into medical school based on your regional background? You stated above that a lot of CSAs don't even bother applying to Canada. Well first of all, some of them can easily tell they won't get in due to grades being below cutoffs. Second of all, some of them are from high school who can see with their own 2 eyes how competitive medical school is getting, and can guess that their chances aren't very good if they stay in Canada. CSAs are predominately from the GTA or BC, where the competition is the highest. A good chunk would probably have made it into medicine easily if they were born/raised in any other province in Canada or the US or the UK. Its almost ridiculous that you are against IMGs when in all likelihood if you were "unfortunately" born in the GTA or BC you yourself would be considering the IMG route.

Your argument would only hold water if the GPA and MCAT for non-Ontario schools were lower than those in Ontario. AFAIK, they are not.

We would also need to know the percentage of individuals with competitive or high GPA and MCAT scores who do not gain admission.

Then we would have to see how many of the aforementioned people are never admitted after multiple attempts (let's say, after three)

Then, one would need to evaluate your GPA and MCAT to see if what you are saying applies to you. If your GPA and MCAT are competitive, but you were just unlucky over more than three tries (and it does happen), then your argument would have a point. If you have a bad/borderline GPA and/or MCAT and are just blowing off steam because you think that those dumb Prairie Dogs or Newfies have had better opportunities than you did, then your argument is biased and cannot be considered valid.

If such a thing was actually a factor, then why, rather than overpaying for a very likely useless degree, didn't you move to another province instead? Halifax is a beautiful city. Why didn't you go there to do a MBA at Rowe and then apply as an IP applicant, if you are so cocksure you'd be able to get in?

Nobody owes an IMG anything, you included. As a Canadian citizen, which I assume you are, you chose to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to attend a proprietary for-profit medical school knowing full well, and being warned by official governing bodies, that your degree does not guarantee you any opportunities to practice in Canada. The reasons for which you decided to do this - general interest, prestige, pie-in-the-sky income, parental pressure, "face" etc. - are irrelevant.

 

[Medstart108]

Your argument would only hold water if the GPA and MCAT for non-Ontario schools were lower than those in Ontario. AFAIK, they are not.

We would also need to know the percentage of individuals with competitive or high GPA and MCAT scores who do not gain admission.

Then we would have to see how many of the aforementioned people are never admitted after multiple attempts (let's say, after three)

Then, one would need to evaluate your GPA and MCAT to see if what you are saying applies to you. If your GPA and MCAT are competitive, but you were just unlucky over more than three tries (and it does happen), then your argument would have a point. If you have a bad/borderline GPA and/or MCAT and are just blowing off steam because you think that those dumb Prairie Dogs or Newfies have had better opportunities than you did, then your argument is biased and cannot be considered valid.

If such a thing was actually a factor, then why, rather than overpaying for a Carib degree, didn't you move to another province instead? Halifax is a beautiful city. Why didn't you go there to do a MBA at Rowe and then apply as an IP applicant, if you are so cocksure you'd be able to get in?

Nobody owes an IMG anything, you included. As a Canadian citizen, which I assume you are, you chose to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to attend a proprietary for-profit medical school knowing full well, and being warned by official governing bodies, that your degree does not guarantee you any opportunities to practice in Canada. The reasons for which you decided to do this - general interest, prestige, pie-in-the-sky income, parental pressure, "face" etc. - are irrelevant.

I'm not one to believe I'm owed anything as a Canadian citizen. I'm a firm believer in meritocracy. An argument that CSAs sometimes make about "deserving a spot because they are Canadians as opposed to immigrants" does not sit well with me. For example, I don't mind the government slapping a RoS. I don't mind the government limiting IMG spots. Fundamentally, I intend to compete within the rules set out by the Canadian government. However, I do mind IP/OP, I do mind any sort of affirmative action and I do mind regional biases.

I am not what you perhaps thought I was (not someone with a borderline GPA or MCAT, or in the Caribbean) i'd like to think i am making a sensible argument against IP/OP bias.

Honestly, not to be arrogant, I'm not doing this for the money and i'm not doing this from parental pressure and i'm not doing this for prestige. I actually like learning, and I like learning medicine and the process of the diagnosis. I couldn't care less if I made 70k a year being a doctor (although I wouldn't want to be working 80 hours a week for that salary) If Canada doesn't want me, i'm sure the UK or the US will and going abroad I did my research and I'm constantly keeping abreast of updates. I'm sure i'm not the "stereotypical IMG", but I'm also pretty sure i'm not the only one who has done this and who thinks like I do.

 

[bearded frog]

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[Medstart108]

I'm from BC then moved to Toronto so I am familiar with IP/OP issues. The reason for IP preference is not elitist bias, but a simple idea that province X taxpayers contribute towards a medical school in province X generally would like the fruits of their contributions to improve province X. And if you are from province X and go to medical school in province X you are far more likely to stay in province X to practice. Where as I from BC go to medical school in Sask am pretty unlikely, statistically, to want to stay and improve health care in Sask, and will instead probably go back to BC or elsewhere since I've already left "home".

Weather provincial governments should expect a return on medical school investment in the form of doctors working in their province is another debate. But its not elitism. Yes, its unfortunate if you are one of 4 million in BC competing for spots at one school vs one of 3.6 million in Alberta competing for spots at 2 schools, but that's just luck.

I understand that logic but then why doesn't the Ontario government take action and make its schools IP? It just seems a bit unfair we give other Canadians the same chance as ourselves to get into our own medical schools when they won't do the same for us.

People from Ontario are more likely to stay and serve Ontario than other Canadians.

 

[bearded frog]

​

 

[AStark]

Excuse me but how is this fair? This reminds me a bit of affirmative action in the US and in India, where unchangeable factors are used for or against you in the admissions process. Does this encourage resentment? Of course it does, just like it would do in any other place in the world.

Tough beans. And affirmative action in India? Aimed at helping the scheduled castes? Not sure why you'd use *that* example.

I don't think people from Ontario are arrogant in this case, maybe we are in other cases, but honestly. 6 million people in the GTA = 1 IP school (for all 14 million Ontarians, this school is McMaster which also happens to have a 5% acceptance rate. Honestly, the only "hope" you have if you are from the GTA is a school with a 5% acceptance rate, you're kidding me right), 2 schools (for all 34 million Canadians) 3 med schools in Ontario (10%-66% spots for those not from their region), 7 OP med schools (10% spots for people not from their province).

Nova Scotia (just using it as an example) = 1 million = 1 IP school, 2 schools (for all 34 million Canadians), 3 med schools in Ontario (10-66% spots for those not from their region), 7 OP med schools (10% spots for people not from their province)

So basically you have 6x the amount of competition if you are from the GTA than if you are from Nova Scotia. You wonder why there may be a little bitterness? Lets not even start with all the subsidies people from Eastern Canada get from Ontario.

Mac had a 5% acceptance rate back when I interviewed there too in 2008. Anyway, yes, people from Ontario are arrogant. At least about this stuff. Tell me, how many med school applicants are planning to move to NS or Newfoundland to live and work? Of course, Nova Scotia in particular has higher taxes in almost every sense than Ontario, and federal policies from about 1867 onward favoured the industrial development of Central Canada at the expense of the Maritimes. Two of the country's largest banks were, after all, founded in Halifax. If you want to talk about "bitterness" about something as trivial as med school admissions, I'd suggest you bother to educate yourself about the political and economic history of other regions of Canada.

Also, A-Stark, you must know that competition for med school gets dramatically harder and harder every year. As I said above, this year, Mac Medical School hit a 5% acceptance rate. Speaking to residents, most are just in amazement at what people have to do to get into medical school these days. People have to spend nearly their entire undergraduate careers preparing for application to medical school, its no longer a case of "having undergrad to decide what to do in life". You need to decide in high school if you are to have any chance of getting into medical school in Ontario or BC.

By all means, please show that competition is indeed getting "dramatically" harder and harder. Mac had a 5% overall admission rate in 2008, as I mentioned above, and that didn't prevent me from interviewing there on my first go. Queen's too. Of course, Mac has a deceptively low admission rate because its advertised cutoffs are also quite low - historically (supposedly) all you needed was a CGPA of 3.0, even though that wasn't remotely competitive to get in. If you don't have the discipline and ability to succeed in undergrad, I'm not sure why you'd think you'd be able to get into med school let alone succeed in the match. Undergrad was really not that hard, and I wasn't even thinking about med school at the time - I didn't really have a clear idea of what I wanted to do at all in fact.

Since a lot of CMGs love to use academic elitism in their arguments against IMGs, I'd thought I'd explore the issue further. As someone from the East coast who also did not enter medical school at the levels of competition med school is at today, you have absolutely no clue what the situation is like for people from the GTA or BC. How can you constantly comment against IMGs going abroad when you don't have personal experience with the insane competition levels for medicine and most importantly do not have your dreams determined/burdened by these competition levels. You tell people to reapply and reapply and spend years of their life on hold when in all likelihood you yourself waltzed into medical school based on your regional background? You stated above that a lot of CSAs don't even bother applying to Canada. Well first of all, some of them can easily tell they won't get in due to grades being below cutoffs. Second of all, some of them are from high school who can see with their own 2 eyes how competitive medical school is getting, and can guess that their chances aren't very good if they stay in Canada. CSAs are predominately from the GTA or BC, where the competition is the highest. A good chunk would probably have made it into medicine easily if they were born/raised in any other province in Canada or the US or the UK. Its almost ridiculous that you are against IMGs when in all likelihood if you were "unfortunately" born in the GTA or BC you yourself would be considering the IMG route.

You know, you don't really have any clue what the situation is like for people from the GTA or BC because you've never applied to a Canadian med school. It's not as if everyone gets in on their first try, and I have numerous friends who didn't get in right away. They stuck it out and did fine. For the record, I interviewed at schools in Ontario too, and attempting to dismiss me as having "waltzed" into med school thanks to my "regional background" is unbelievably insulting. I don't think the rest of this paragraph deserves any further response. I have talked extensively about the immense gamble that is CaRMS; while you can apply to med school more than once and know that you can improve your application each time, CaRMS is more or less a one-shot, and the US is becoming a more hostile environment to find a good spot. Caveat emptor.

 

[Medstart108]

Tough beans. And affirmative action in India? Aimed at helping the scheduled castes? Not sure why you'd use *that* example.

Mac had a 5% acceptance rate back when I interviewed there too in 2008. Anyway, yes, people from Ontario are arrogant. At least about this stuff. Tell me, how many med school applicants are planning to move to NS or Newfoundland to live and work? Of course, Nova Scotia in particular has higher taxes in almost every sense than Ontario, and federal policies from about 1867 onward favoured the industrial development of Central Canada at the expense of the Maritimes. Two of the country's largest banks were, after all, founded in Halifax. If you want to talk about "bitterness" about something as trivial as med school admissions, I'd suggest you bother to educate yourself about the political and economic history of other regions of Canada.

By all means, please show that competition is indeed getting "dramatically" harder and harder. Mac had a 5% overall admission rate in 2008, as I mentioned above, and that didn't prevent me from interviewing there on my first go. Queen's too. Of course, Mac has a deceptively low admission rate because its advertised cutoffs are also quite low - historically (supposedly) all you needed was a CGPA of 3.0, even though that wasn't remotely competitive to get in. If you don't have the discipline and ability to succeed in undergrad, I'm not sure why you'd think you'd be able to get into med school let alone succeed in the match. Undergrad was really not that hard, and I wasn't even thinking about med school at the time - I didn't really have a clear idea of what I wanted to do at all in fact.

You know, you don't really have any clue what the situation is like for people from the GTA or BC because you've never applied to a Canadian med school. It's not as if everyone gets in on their first try, and I have numerous friends who didn't get in right away. They stuck it out and did fine. For the record, I interviewed at schools in Ontario too, and attempting to dismiss me as having "waltzed" into med school thanks to my "regional background" is unbelievably insulting. I don't think the rest of this paragraph deserves any further response. I have talked extensively about the immense gamble that is CaRMS; while you can apply to med school more than once and know that you can improve your application each time, CaRMS is more or less a one-shot, and the US is becoming a more hostile environment to find a good spot. Caveat emptor.

The beans are tough indeed.

http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/mdprog/documents/Classof2014.pdf
http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/mdprog/documents/Classof2016.pdf
Applications went from 3500 to 4500 in 2 years.

To meet Western's MCAT cutoff you need a 12 B, 9 P and 11 VR this year. It has never been this hard before.

As you said for you, you didn't even know what you wanted to do during undergrad. Those days are long gone, now if you don't know or at least plan for medicine at the start of undergrad, it's a tough road.

"Tell me, how many med school applicants are planning to move to NS or Newfoundland to live and work?" - Answer, not many, but i don't see what this has to do with this topic. We should either rid the country of IP bias completely or we should all be IP. If people in Nova Scotia want to care about their own first, why don't people in Ontario care about their own first as well.

 

[Substance]

The beans are tough indeed.

http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/mdprog/documents/Classof2014.pdf
http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/mdprog/documents/Classof2016.pdf
Applications went from 3500 to 4500 in 2 years.

To meet Western's MCAT cutoff you need a 12 B, 9 P and 11 VR this year. It has never been this hard before.

As you said for you, you didn't even know what you wanted to do during undergrad. Those days are long gone, now if you don't know or at least plan for medicine at the start of undergrad, it's a tough road.

"Tell me, how many med school applicants are planning to move to NS or Newfoundland to live and work?" - Answer, not many, but i don't see what this has to do with this topic. We should either rid the country of IP bias completely or we should all be IP. If people in Nova Scotia want to care about their own first, why don't people in Ontario care about their own first as well.

I can hazard a guess that UofT is fine opening its doors nationwide to try to get the candidates with the best fit, no matter where they're from. Plus, its Toronto, which has absolutely no trouble keeping people in Toronto once they get there. I know that, as someone who certainly was not born, raised, or educated in Toronto, I love the Toronto life. It's got everything. I would never live in a small town again.

I can see the NS perspective since very few people in their right minds would move there on their own volition from Ontario or BC etc., given its inept governance, lack of amenities and culture, and punitive tax rates. Paying a 50% tax on your income for the privilege of living in a passively-aggressive racist village by the cold Atlantic isn't very appealing to most people. But if that's all you've ever known, then you're more likely to stay, or so goes the IP preference logic.

If you have such a beef with Toronto's lack of IP preference, why didn't you move to another province with IP preference and then apply to medical school there, rather than going balls deep overseas?

 

[Substance]

It's true that Toronto has no problem retaining graduates. The same could be said about other world-class cities like Calgary and Edmonton where Canadians are trying to move to by the droves, yet these universities still strongly favor in-province applicants. Alberta has been the top desired destination for intra-Canadian migration for at least the last decade or so, certainly more so than Ontario, yet this doesn't change the fact that they favor their own students first while Ontario does not. On the opposite side of the spectrum we have places like London, Ontario. Not exactly a city very high up on most peoples list of places they'd like to live, yet Western still does not give preference to local students over out-of-province students who are likely going to move back home when they graduate.

While I think it is certainly reasonable for Provinces to favor their own students first, that doesn't change the fact that Ontario doesnt, and Ontario students end up getting screwed over. I personally know a girl from Nova Scotia who just got accepted to Dalhousie medical school and only got offered a single interview to an Ontario medical school (which she ended up getting rejected from) because she simply was not competitive for Ontario schools. Yet in this thread we have people from Maritime Provinces preaching to Ontarians about how easy it is waltz into medical school without even trying, and then stereotyping Ontario students who decide to go abroad as "inferior" students for not getting into a Canadian school. Half the students enrolled at Dalhousie/Memorial medical school would not have gotten accepted to a school in Ontario or BC yet I don't hear anyone saying how "inferior" these students are to other schools. The average MCAT score of Dalhousie med students accepted this year was 29. In contrast, at Western you need a minimum score of 32 to even be eligible to apply. The ignorance runs deep.

So I suppose that, as a Canadian citizen who went to an offshore medical school, your MCAT and GPA were higher than those of the Dalhousie or MUN students that were accepted? You just couldn't get a fair shake because you're from Ontario? Those are strong words from an IMG. What were your scores?

I tell ya, if your GPA and MCAT are crap and you just wished you were a citizen of a boony province so that you could get accepted into medicine, then I don't really have any sympathy for you since you could have moved to the boony province instead of going abroad. Or you could have not sucked at undergrad, or could have re-written the MCAT, or a bunch of other things that included not going to an offshore proprietary for-profit medical school.

I also wonder why you are not applying for residencies in the US. Surely you can get one of those visa things for a family medicine residency.

 

[Medstart108]

I can hazard a guess that UofT is fine opening its doors nationwide to try to get the candidates with the best fit, no matter where they're from. Plus, its Toronto, which has absolutely no trouble keeping people in Toronto once they get there. I know that, as someone who certainly was not born, raised, or educated in Toronto, I love the Toronto life. It's got everything. I would never live in a small town again.

I can see the NS perspective since very few people in their right minds would move there on their own volition from Ontario or BC etc., given its inept governance, lack of amenities and culture, and punitive tax rates. Paying a 50% tax on your income for the privilege of living in a passively-aggressive racist village by the cold Atlantic isn't very appealing to most people. But if that's all you've ever known, then you're more likely to stay, or so goes the IP preference logic.

If you have such a beef with Toronto's lack of IP preference, why didn't you move to another province with IP preference and then apply to medical school there, rather than going balls deep overseas?

If UofT is fine opening its doors nationwide, other medical schools should do the same. Other Canadians call Toronto "elitist", "arrogant" and then procede to use our services as they please. You can't have your cake and eat it. If your own place was so great why come here. Substance, you clearly like Toronto, how would you feel if Toronto decided to give priority to its own people first and excluded you based on the fact that "you aren't from here and Torontonians are more likely to stay in their own city"? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like that. Well thats basically what every other province does to us, so you should know what its like.

I love how you just said "why don't you just move provinces". This is so much easier said than done. If people could do just pack up and move we would have done so, don't you think?

 

[Medstart108]

It's true that Toronto has no problem retaining graduates. The same could be said about other world-class cities like Calgary and Edmonton where Canadians are trying to move to by the droves, yet these universities still strongly favor in-province applicants. Alberta has been the top desired destination for intra-Canadian migration for at least the last decade or so, certainly more so than Ontario, yet this doesn't change the fact that they favor their own students first while Ontario does not. On the opposite side of the spectrum we have places like London, Ontario. Not exactly a city very high up on most peoples list of places they'd like to live, yet Western still does not give preference to local students over out-of-province students who are likely going to move back home when they graduate.

While I think it is certainly reasonable for Provinces to favor their own students first, that doesn't change the fact that Ontario doesnt, and Ontario students end up getting screwed over. I personally know a girl from Nova Scotia who just got accepted to Dalhousie medical school and only got offered a single interview to an Ontario medical school (which she ended up getting rejected from) because she simply was not competitive for Ontario schools. Yet in this thread we have people from Maritime Provinces preaching to Ontarians about how easy it is waltz into medical school without even trying, and then stereotyping Ontario students who decide to go abroad as "inferior" students for not getting into a Canadian school. Half the students enrolled at Dalhousie/Memorial medical school would not have gotten accepted to a school in Ontario or BC yet I don't hear anyone saying how "inferior" these students are. The average MCAT score of Dalhousie med students accepted this year was 29. In contrast, at Western you need a minimum score of 32 to even be eligible to apply. The ignorance runs deep.

Agreed. And on top of that you don't only just need a 32 you need a 12 bio, 9 phys and 11 VR which reduces the number of applicants even more.

 

[Substance]

I love how you just said "why don't you just move provinces". This is so much easier said than done. If people could do just pack up and move we would have done so, don't you think?

You moved to an offshore medical school's city/town/island. You could have moved to Edmonton or Calgary. It would be no guarantee, true. But neither is getting an offshore degree. It's one gamble for another, just the end product of one is more valuable than the other.

Packing up and moving is what mostly everyone does for residency. It's inconvenient but not impossible.

 

[Medstart108]

You moved to an offshore medical school's city/town/island. You could have moved to Edmonton or Calgary. It would be no guarantee, true. But neither is getting an offshore degree. It's one gamble for another, just the end product of one is more valuable than the other.

Packing up and moving is what mostly everyone does for residency. It's inconvenient but not impossible.

All I can say is that everyone has thought of it and it was not possible in my case (think family, jobs etc).

 

[AStark]

I can see the NS perspective since very few people in their right minds would move there on their own volition from Ontario or BC etc., given its inept governance, lack of amenities and culture, and punitive tax rates. Paying a 50% tax on your income for the privilege of living in a passively-aggressive racist village by the cold Atlantic isn't very appealing to most people. But if that's all you've ever known, then you're more likely to stay, or so goes the IP preference logic.

I don't know where you're from, but when it comes to "inept governance", NS really can't compete with such paragons of competence as Toronto City Council and the Wynne government. I won't even get into the rest of this comment.

It's true that Toronto has no problem retaining graduates. The same could be said about other world-class cities like Calgary and Edmonton where Canadians are trying to move to by the droves, yet these universities still strongly favor in-province applicants. Alberta has been the top desired destination for intra-Canadian migration for at least the last decade or so, certainly more so than Ontario, yet this doesn't change the fact that they favor their own students first while Ontario does not. On the opposite side of the spectrum we have places like London, Ontario. Not exactly a city very high up on most peoples list of places they'd like to live, yet Western still does not give preference to local students over out-of-province students who are likely going to move back home when they graduate.

Western gives preference to SWOMEN students with, among other things, a much lower MCAT cutoff. Mac gives overwhelming preference to Ontario students in the admissions process. Ottawa has much lower cut offs for applicants from Ottawa and Eastern Ontario.

While I think it is certainly reasonable for Provinces to favor their own students first, that doesn't change the fact that Ontario doesnt, and Ontario students end up getting screwed over. I personally know a girl from Nova Scotia who just got accepted to Dalhousie medical school and only got offered a single interview to an Ontario medical school (which she ended up getting rejected from) because she simply was not competitive for Ontario schools. Yet in this thread we have people from Maritime Provinces preaching to Ontarians about how easy it is waltz into medical school without even trying, and then stereotyping Ontario students who decide to go abroad as "inferior" students for not getting into a Canadian school. Half the students enrolled at Dalhousie/Memorial medical school would not have gotten accepted to a school in Ontario or BC yet I don't hear anyone saying how "inferior" these students are. The average MCAT score of Dalhousie med students accepted this year was 29. In contrast, at Western you need a minimum score of 32 to even be eligible to apply. The ignorance runs deep.

Ontario does put Ontario (or regional) students first, except at UofT and Queen's. Oh, and I have to call BS on your anecdote because while it's true Dal has already released results, that is not the case for any Ontario school. How would they have rejected her before anyone else? Who exactly is preaching about how easy it is to "waltz" into medical school? What kind of BS is that? I did give my background, insofar as I interviewed at two Ontario schools - but I got my acceptance a week before the second of those interviews and that was that.

It is not easy to get into med school, but doing well in undergrad is NOT such a challenge if you're capable. I find it incredible that anyone should think that getting that 3.8+ GPA is so unattainable, yet getting an extremely high score on USMLEs isn't. Because that's what you need to do at this point.

As for Western, you are again quoting the non-SWOMEN cutoff. Similarly the non-Maritime students who get into Dal face higher cutoffs and relatively more competition. I suppose you could argue that UofT and Queen's should prefer GTA and Kingston-area applicants, respectively, but - as has been pointed out - Toronto isn't lacking for physicians or people who want to live there in general, and a regional-bias for Queen's doesn't make much sense when Ottawa arguably already fulfills the same regional role. And it's not like Kingston is such a large area that it requires a med school the same size as Dal, which serves a region of about 2 million people.

Actually yes, my MCAT was above 29, which is higher than the average maritime medical student. I am a non-trad student who is already a bit older, and the idea of moving to a province I don't want to live in for a year or more just to be eligible to apply to their medical school which i have only a "chance" at being accepted to is not appealing, and i don't have that kind of time to waste. The point is that Ontario schools should favor their own applicants just as every other province does.

And as I have repeatedly pointed out, Ontario schools do for the most part favour their own applicants just like every other province does. It's also the only province to open a med school in the last 30 years, and alongside that spaces have greatly expanded with satellite campuses in Windsor, K-W, Niagara, and Mississauga. UofT even has a favourable weighted GPA formula that drops up to your lowest 8 half course marks. If I'd hazard a guess, most UofT students are from Ontario/GTA, and if your point has validity, I'd invite you to show otherwise.

And getting into medical school in Ontario is not a matter of sucking or not sucking at undergrad, once again you really shouldn't stereotype. You can easily have a 3.8gpa with a 32+ MCAT with enough ECs to make your head spin and still not get into an Ontario medical school because the competition is simply so absurdly high here nowadays. Like I've said many times before, a lot of IMGs from Ontario were more qualified, higher scoring applicants than Canadian medical students from maritime provinces or some prairie provinces, this is clearly demonstrated by admission statistics. It is ignorant in this day and age to assume that being an IMG (especially from Ontario/BC) means you didn't do well in undergrad, and I think it's obvious that some people are simply unaware of the current medical school climate in certain provinces.

You're right since a quarter of those IMGs didn't even bother doing a Canadian undergrad or applying to a Canadian med school even once. And, otherwise, you're right that someone with competitive "stats" may not necessarily get in on their first try, but persistence pays off, and the CaRMS IMG survey showed clearly that IMGs apply fewer times than CMGs. Let me also reiterate again that Mac - the second largest school in the province - favours Ontario applicants.

I never mentioned anything about applying for residencies, but I'm pretty confident I'll be able to get a residency in Canada since I am planning on going FM and I am a strong candidate. I will still be applying for residencies in the US though just in case, I've never said i wouldn't be. But I would just rather be living in Canada, it is my home and I love it there. In addition, FM residency in Canada is 2 years vs 3 years in the US, which also makes it more appealing to be in Canada.

Well, good luck. There were a number of people - CMGs - who didn't get FM in the second iteration this year. IMGs always fare even worse. And there are a lot of bad programs in the US. Why do you think you're a strong candidate?

If UofT is fine opening its doors nationwide, other medical schools should do the same. Other Canadians call Toronto "elitist", "arrogant" and then procede to use our services as they please. You can't have your cake and eat it. If your own place was so great why come here. Substance, you clearly like Toronto, how would you feel if Toronto decided to give priority to its own people first and excluded you based on the fact that "you aren't from here and Torontonians are more likely to stay in their own city"? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like that. Well thats basically what every other province does to us, so you should know what its like.

Actually I know Toronto very well, though I'm not sure what "services" I use that originate there. Unfortunately, I hate high-rise condos, and it's hard to find an affordable, walkable neighbourhood. Maybe I'll like the neighbourhood in the Annex my brother recently moved to.

I love how you just said "why don't you just move provinces". This is so much easier said than done. If people could do just pack up and move we would have done so, don't you think?

Sorry, I don't get this. You're able to move literally around the world for med school but couldn't go to undergrad in Calgary or Halifax, and - at worst - spend a year working there to meet residency requirements.

 

[Medstart108]

I don't know where you're from, but when it comes to "inept governance", NS really can't compete with such paragons of competence as Toronto City Council and the Wynne government. I won't even get into the rest of this comment.



Western gives preference to SWOMEN students with, among other things, a much lower MCAT cutoff. Mac gives overwhelming preference to Ontario students in the admissions process. Ottawa has much lower cut offs for applicants from Ottawa and Eastern Ontario.



Ontario does put Ontario (or regional) students first, except at UofT and Queen's. Oh, and I have to call BS on your anecdote because while it's true Dal has already released results, that is not the case for any Ontario school. How would they have rejected her before anyone else? Who exactly is preaching about how easy it is to "waltz" into medical school? What kind of BS is that? I did give my background, insofar as I interviewed at two Ontario schools - but I got my acceptance a week before the second of those interviews and that was that.

It is not easy to get into med school, but doing well in undergrad is NOT such a challenge if you're capable. I find it incredible that anyone should think that getting that 3.8+ GPA is so unattainable, yet getting an extremely high score on USMLEs isn't. Because that's what you need to do at this point.

As for Western, you are again quoting the non-SWOMEN cutoff. Similarly the non-Maritime students who get into Dal face higher cutoffs and relatively more competition. I suppose you could argue that UofT and Queen's should prefer GTA and Kingston-area applicants, respectively, but - as has been pointed out - Toronto isn't lacking for physicians or people who want to live there in general, and a regional-bias for Queen's doesn't make much sense when Ottawa arguably already fulfills the same regional role. And it's not like Kingston is such a large area that it requires a med school the same size as Dal, which serves a region of about 2 million people.



And as I have repeatedly pointed out, Ontario schools do for the most part favour their own applicants just like every other province does. It's also the only province to open a med school in the last 30 years, and alongside that spaces have greatly expanded with satellite campuses in Windsor, K-W, Niagara, and Mississauga. UofT even has a favourable weighted GPA formula that drops up to your lowest 8 half course marks. If I'd hazard a guess, most UofT students are from Ontario/GTA, and if your point has validity, I'd invite you to show otherwise.



You're right since a quarter of those IMGs didn't even bother doing a Canadian undergrad or applying to a Canadian med school even once. And, otherwise, you're right that someone with competitive "stats" may not necessarily get in on their first try, but persistence pays off, and the CaRMS IMG survey showed clearly that IMGs apply fewer times than CMGs. Let me also reiterate again that Mac - the second largest school in the province - favours Ontario applicants.



Well, good luck. There were a number of people - CMGs - who didn't get FM in the second iteration this year. IMGs always fare even worse. And there are a lot of bad programs in the US. Why do you think you're a strong candidate?



Actually I know Toronto very well, though I'm not sure what "services" I use that originate there. Unfortunately, I hate high-rise condos, and it's hard to find an affordable, walkable neighbourhood. Maybe I'll like the neighbourhood in the Annex my brother recently moved to.



Sorry, I don't get this. You're able to move literally around the world for med school but couldn't go to undergrad in Calgary or Halifax, and - at worst - spend a year working there to meet residency requirements.

I keep hearing that Toronto has no problems attracting applicants. I agree, but that shouldn't stop Toronto from taking care of its own residents first. The same could easily be said of Vancouver, i'm sure tons of people are willing to relocate to Vancouver, but BC doesn't mind taking care of its own first.

Ontario opened a new medical school in the last 30 years. Wow, its also one of the smallest medical schools in Canada that also happens to prefer people from rural northern Ontario. Ontario's population has also grown easily 4 million in that same time period while the population of the maritimes has fallen. It is only natural that a new medical school should be opened in Ontario or BC where the admissions rates are the lowest and the population is growing rapidly.

There is simply no-one looking out for the 6 million people living in the GTA. When York University tried opening a medical school a few years back with plans of using the to be re-built Humber River Hospital and NYGH as their teaching hospitals, UofT completely shut them down saying, Toronto doesn't need more than 1 medical school (heard this through a York prof). http://www.thestar.com/life/parent/2008/02/21/health_minister_supports_new_med_school_plan.html Here is the link if you want it. Toronto is the largest such city in North America that only has 1 medical school. Chicago, New York, London, Philadelphia all have 5 or 6 medical schools. Even Boston, a city smaller than Toronto has 4, and Toronto does not have room for 2? Toronto hogs nearly 12 major teaching hospitals and dozens of smaller community and regional hospitals in the GTA. If they seriously made full use of their hospitals, they could easily accommodate 400+ medical students.

I honestly don't see the need for SWOMEN and Ottawa's regional biases when both regions would have no trouble recruiting people willing to move there. You can make a case for NOSM, but honestly Western and Ottawa should have pan-Ontario biases not just biases for their own particular regions.

Going to sound arrogant here, but sometimes i view this as Canada's loss, part of the brain drain if you will. A lot of the people who study in the UK and Ireland especially those who go direct from high school from Canada were actually top of their class (standards are quite high for highschoolers). I know several people with Ivy League worthy grades, i'm talking 98%+ in high school, near perfect SATs and ECs of a premed in high school going to medical schools abroad. Many have intentions of staying abroad or moving to the US and because the medical degree lasts 5-6 years these students will often graduate at an earlier age resulting in a recouping of the high tuition fees from going abroad. It's a lot harder to get into medical school in the UK as an international than as a domestic applicant due to quotas, and yet in the UK you have students who go abroad after not getting into medicine in the UK. From personal experience, the Canadians who are in the UK are mostly in the top 50% and often in the top 20, 10% of the class. We can attribute some of the high performance to the larger need to succeed as for some their goal is not to stay but to get residency in North America or elsewhere, but they are no slouches by any stretch of the imagination.

In Toronto, the way things are now, even the students at the top of their class, at top public and private schools have maybe a 50/50 chance of getting into medicine. The stats bear this out. McMaster Health Sciences, widely considered one of the best undergrad programs for those interested in medicine, publishes its stats for its grads. Just over 40% get into medical school. Every student in that program has at least a 90% average and 2/3rds have an average over 95%.

I don't think there is a place in the world where this is the case, with the possible exception of Singapore or HK.

 

[AStark]

Ontario opened a new medical school in the last 30 years. Wow, its also one of the smallest medical schools in Canada that also happens to prefer people from rural northern Ontario. Ontario's population has also grown easily 4 million in that same time period while the population of the maritimes has fallen. It is only natural that a new medical school should be opened in Ontario or BC where the admissions rates are the lowest and the population is growing rapidly.

Ontario has opened four different satellite campuses, including one in Mississauga, which is equivalent to opening 2 or 3 new med schools. That's in addition to NOSM. BC has also opened satellite programs in Victoria and Prince George. Enrolment has increased substantially already. Are you not aware of that?

There is simply no-one looking out for the 6 million people living in the GTA. When York University tried opening a medical school a few years back with plans of using the to be re-built Humber River Hospital and NYGH as their teaching hospitals, UofT completely shut them down saying, Toronto doesn't need more than 1 medical school (heard this through a York prof). http://www.thestar.com/life/parent/2008/02/21/health_minister_supports_new_med_school_plan.html Here is the link if you want it. Toronto is the largest such city in North America that only has 1 medical school. Chicago, New York, London, Philadelphia all have 5 or 6 medical schools. Even Boston, a city smaller than Toronto has 4, and Toronto does not have room for 2? Toronto hogs nearly 12 major teaching hospitals and dozens of smaller community and regional hospitals in the GTA. If they seriously made full use of their hospitals, they could easily accommodate 400+ medical students.

Toronto doesn't need a second, separately-administered med school because UofT is perfectly capable of opening up more campuses. Which it has. North York General already functions within the UofT system. In any case, the availability of clinical training positions becomes saturated a lot faster than you seem to think. Not all hospitals should be teaching hospitals, and it only takes a handful of learners to dilute the training experience in a significant and detrimental way. There are only so many cadavers to go around for anatomy teaching and only so many basic sciences instructors available. It is not a simple task to recruit clinical staff either, especially when many (or most) in the community work in a fee-for-service environment. It's also debatable whether the GTA can accommodate over a hundred more residency spots.

I honestly don't see the need for SWOMEN and Ottawa's regional biases when both regions would have no trouble recruiting people willing to move there. You can make a case for NOSM, but honestly Western and Ottawa should have pan-Ontario biases not just biases for their own particular regions.

Why should they? Didn't someone up thread even comment about the undesirability of London?

Going to sound arrogant here, but sometimes i view this as Canada's loss, part of the brain drain if you will. A lot of the people who study in the UK and Ireland especially those who go direct from high school from Canada were actually top of their class (standards are quite high for highschoolers). I know several people with Ivy League worthy grades, i'm talking 98%+ in high school, near perfect SATs and ECs of a premed in high school going to medical schools abroad. Many have intentions of staying abroad or moving to the US and because the medical degree lasts 5-6 years these students will often graduate at an earlier age resulting in a recouping of the high tuition fees from going abroad. It's a lot harder to get into medical school in the UK as an international than as a domestic applicant due to quotas, and yet in the UK you have students who go abroad after not getting into medicine in the UK. From personal experience, the Canadians who are in the UK are mostly in the top 50% and often in the top 20, 10% of the class. We can attribute some of the high performance to the larger need to succeed as for some their goal is not to stay but to get residency in North America or elsewhere, but they are no slouches by any stretch of the imagination.

High school grades are meaningless. I've seen plenty of 95%+ students flame out in undergrad because they lack self-discipline, their attention wanders, or they find it a difficult transition.

In Toronto, the way things are now, even the students at the top of their class, at top public and private schools have maybe a 50/50 chance of getting into medicine. The stats bear this out. McMaster Health Sciences, widely considered one of the best undergrad programs for those interested in medicine, publishes its stats for its grads. Just over 40% get into medical school. Every student in that program has at least a 90% average and 2/3rds have an average over 95%.

I don't think there is a place in the world where this is the case, with the possible exception of Singapore or HK.

I'm fairly certain that "every student" in Mac Health Sci does not carry a 4.0 (or whatever that is on Mac's weird scale) while in the program. Who cares about what their high school averages were? I'm also fairly certain that 100% of them do not apply to med school, and that your 40% number doesn't reflect the rate of admission amongst applicants, but simply the proportion from that program who go on into medicine. If we're going to compare anecdotes and out-of-context statistics, my program is relatively small for my specialty, but we manage to have a Rhodes scholar amongst us.

 

[Medstart108]

Ontario has opened four different satellite campuses, including one in Mississauga, which is equivalent to opening 2 or 3 new med schools. That's in addition to NOSM. BC has also opened satellite programs in Victoria and Prince George. Enrolment has increased substantially already. Are you not aware of that?



Toronto doesn't need a second, separately-administered med school because UofT is perfectly capable of opening up more campuses. Which it has. North York General already functions within the UofT system. In any case, the availability of clinical training positions becomes saturated a lot faster than you seem to think. Not all hospitals should be teaching hospitals, and it only takes a handful of learners to dilute the training experience in a significant and detrimental way. There are only so many cadavers to go around for anatomy teaching and only so many basic sciences instructors available. It is not a simple task to recruit clinical staff either, especially when many (or most) in the community work in a fee-for-service environment. It's also debatable whether the GTA can accommodate over a hundred more residency spots.



Why should they? Didn't someone up thread even comment about the undesirability of London?



High school grades are meaningless. I've seen plenty of 95%+ students flame out in undergrad because they lack self-discipline, their attention wanders, or they find it a difficult transition.



I'm fairly certain that "every student" in Mac Health Sci does not carry a 4.0 (or whatever that is on Mac's weird scale) while in the program. Who cares about what their high school averages were? I'm also fairly certain that 100% of them do not apply to med school, and that your 40% number doesn't reflect the rate of admission amongst applicants, but simply the proportion from that program who go on into medicine. If we're going to compare anecdotes and out-of-context statistics, my program is relatively small for my specialty, but we manage to have a Rhodes scholar amongst us.

I am quite aware that enrollment has increased substantially, unfortunately admissions still gets more and more competitive ever year.

You are arguing against some pretty logical points. If Toronto can't handle another 100 medical students how can a place like Boston handle its 500+ medical students while maintaining such high medical standards?

I'm sure if you attached a RoS to Western's medical school people would still be very willing to go.

I've never met a 95%+ student who flamed out. Maybe the ones you met went to public schools that didn't prepare them well enough for university, that makes sense. Ontario grades can be pretty meaningless if they come from bad public schools where teachers give high 90s and don't bother teaching properly.

The schools i'm talking about are good schools where the curriculum is good. Students who do well in high school have built the foundations of studying and have the drive to succeed in university. High school grades correlate with uni grades just like uni grades correlate with med school performance so on and so forth. Logically, how could top unis like the Ivies and Oxbridge consistently choose future leaders and scientists by looking at grades of high school students ever year? If HS grades are meaningless, top unis would not use them as criteria for admissions would they.