Anyone ever had an attending push them?

[xffan624]

[QUOTESI="Asteroid Body, post: 18999374, member: 499251"]I'm still wavering on whether to initiate contact with HR (it will have to be tomorrow morning right before I work with her, as there is no email). I hesitate because it will most certainly agitate/alienate the two supervisors, who have up to this point gone to bat for me, dismissing her host of complaints about me. It will also then be guaranteed to show up as an "incident" in my personnel file, and may formalize the process of performance evaluations in a way that is unfavorable to me. I think it is important to keep some internal allies with high status (one of the supervisors is the Vice Chair, who of course works with the Chair, who ultimately decides who is hired/fired in this program), while taking a firm stance on the physical aggression as completely unacceptable. They know she's a tyrant. They know she has the conflict-resolution skills of a gorilla on methamphetamines. Maybe this is the first time they've ever heard of physical assault, but I believe they would be relieved to hear me say something like "lets make this easier for everybody." Nobody else is going to contact HR, certainly not the attending herself, likely the most she will do is whine to Chair and Vice Chair and try to get me fired and may want to give me a bad eval, which I may or may not be able to negotiate away. If HR has already been contacted, there is no disadvantage to reporting my version of the story after hers.

However, if I fail to negotiate a 'neutral' transfer to another service, my next stop is HR. And I think it is a reasonable period of time considering the police report is in and technically it would be within 24 hours of the incident, counting business days.[/QUOTE]

I'm just an incoming intern but I've worked in enough outside environments to know wrong when I see it. You've been asked to work with someone who alledgely physically assaulted you less than week after the incident with no apology or assurance that it will not happen again. Clearly, your supervisors are not taking this as seriously as it should be.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Their excuse is of course going to be that patients come first and they couldn't arrange alternate coverage on short notice. I was warned it would look bad for me if I didn't show up.

The Mods will have to excuse me on this one, but that is complete and utter bull****.

The lady has shown overt physically aggressive behavior towards you and has, at least legally, already assaulted you!

I mean, what about an emergency retraining order? Your work is effectively coercing you to enter a work environment that has already demosntrated itself hostile toward you. WTF!

Heck, bring some brass knuckles in case you have to defend yourself. Who knows what this loon is gonna do to you tomorrow. She is dangerous, unpredictable, and now probably on a mission.

 

[rokshana]

That's gonna require one or more witnesses actually reporting they saw the pushing AS it happened. Not just reporting that they over heard her yelling, bring me into a room, saw me gesture as if trying to escape, or even heard me say "pushing me is inappropriate, stop." So unless they roll back the security cameras I'm not even sure she will be prosecuted.

if there is security footage, you need to get a copy of that ASAP!!

and if you do have to work with her, make sure you are not alone with her and that there are people to witness any interchanges...and if things start to accelerate, turn that phone on! video or at least audio.

 

[Asteroid Body]

The Mods will have to excuse me on this one, but that is complete and utter bull****.

The lady has shown overt physically aggressive behavior towards you and has, at least legally, already assaulted you!

I mean, what about an emergency retraining order? Your work is effectively coercing you to enter a work environment that has already demosntrated itself hostile toward you. WTF!

Heck, bring some brass knuckles in case you have to defend yourself. Who knows what this loon is gonna do to you tomorrow. She is dangerous, unpredictable, and now probably on a mission.

If she starts talking about anything besides patients or tries to pull me aside, I am walking straight outta that room because "I'm late for an important meeting" and she better not block the door.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

If she starts talking about anything besides patients or tries to pull me aside, I am walking straight outta that room because "I'm late for an important meeting" and she better not block the door.

Dude OP, you are far more brave than I would be in this particular case. Good luck with all of this tomorrow.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

This thread is getting hot and angry. And that's not going to help anyone. In fact, to the OP, getting really angry and over-reacting could backfire badly on you.

Again, as I mentioned, this type of behavior by anyone is unacceptable. But don't make the mistake of making matters worse / creating problems for yourself by over-reacting.

So:

1. Your best play here is not to demand that you be switched to another service. There may be complicated reasons that make that difficult, they could argue that this is a "curriculum" issue (i.e. you need an extra few months of this rotation just like everyone else), etc. Not to mention that this just dumps the problem onto the next person who rotates onto the service. Instead, demand a safe working environment. You're happy to continue on this service and do your job, but only if all yelling, berating, maltreatment, and especially physical contact cease immediately. I'd also ask that you not have any private meetings with her -- that you always want a chaperone present.

These requests are completely reasonable, and fully within your rights. They may decide that switching you to another service is the best way to defuse the situation. But your best play here is to set these expectations, and then leave them the wiggle room to sort it out. Perhaps they will switch her off service? Etc.

2. If you decide to record anything, be very careful. Some states have 2 party consent, recording someone without their knowledge can be a crime (and then the video may not be usable anyway). Plus, if you record any patient information that's a HIPPA violation. And your institution may have rules also -- ours does, no video without full consent (i.e. patients are not allowed to record clinical visits on the sly). So overall I am afraid this is bad advice, unless you're 100% certain you know what you're doing.

3. You're angry. I get that. And you deserve to be angry. But take a few deep breaths. Take the high road here. Be the better person. No one can fault you for that.

 

[cbrons]

Alright guys. I have the police report in hand, made it clear to police I needed it for documentation purposes only and do not wish to press charges, they said it would take a few days before the assigned detective would call me back to me asking about witnesses, but unless I want to press criminal charges they are not likely to contact witnesses or the 'perpetrator.' I don't plan on disclosing this to anyone at work unless s*** hits the fan and I am disciplined/fired for this.

 

[Asteroid Body]

This thread is getting hot and angry. And that's not going to help anyone. In fact, to the OP, getting really angry and over-reacting could backfire badly on you.

Again, as I mentioned, this type of behavior by anyone is unacceptable. But don't make the mistake of making matters worse / creating problems for yourself by over-reacting.

So:

1. Your best play here is not to demand that you be switched to another service. There may be complicated reasons that make that difficult, they could argue that this is a "curriculum" issue (i.e. you need an extra few months of this rotation just like everyone else), etc. Not to mention that this just dumps the problem onto the next person who rotates onto the service. Instead, demand a safe working environment. You're happy to continue on this service and do your job, but only if all yelling, berating, maltreatment, and especially physical contact cease immediately. I'd also ask that you not have any private meetings with her -- that you always want a chaperone present.

These requests are completely reasonable, and fully within your rights. They may decide that switching you to another service is the best way to defuse the situation. But your best play here is to set these expectations, and then leave them the wiggle room to sort it out. Perhaps they will switch her off service? Etc.

2. If you decide to record anything, be very careful. Some states have 2 party consent, recording someone without their knowledge can be a crime (and then the video may not be usable anyway). Plus, if you record any patient information that's a HIPPA violation. And your institution may have rules also -- ours does, no video without full consent (i.e. patients are not allowed to record clinical visits on the sly). So overall I am afraid this is bad advice, unless you're 100% certain you know what you're doing.

3. You're angry. I get that. And you deserve to be angry. But take a few deep breaths. Take the high road here. Be the better person. No one can fault you for that.

I'm not angry and RR is normal. Of course I am not going to bring brass knuckles but it is fun to joke about, and I'm not going to follow most of the recommendations on here because I realize advice is worth what you pay for it. Audio/video recording is obviously a stupid idea more likely to antagonize her than anything.

The problem with #1 is that I have already made these requests, the response was "you have to learn to deal with difficult people" and the behavior didn't stop. Clearly it has escalated. The Chaperone - not gonna happen. Not going to make a demand, but a request. And I intend to say something like, "if you will not accommodate my request to not work with someone who has been physically aggressive (again, broken record), what would you plan to do to make sure it doesn't happen again?" The issue with continuing to work with her is she WILL make my life hell in a technically allowable way, ie emailing me now 100 times a day, changing the service schedule so I do twice as much work as the other residents.

 

[Asteroid Body]

Mr. Stewart, you can be assured that the detective will call me tomorrow and I still have time to decide whether to press charges.

 

[Goro]

A familiar sdn tale: I've been on a rotation for the last few months with an attending who yells, verbally berates me, is quick to point out my mistakes, gives me more than the usual resident's share of work assignments, and is generally miserable to work with. Thirty or more emails per day, even when she is not the attending (although she is service chief) needing status updates on cases. It seems most other people at work have at least peripherally experienced her anger outbursts. She is sometimes overheard at work yelling at her husband or other family members on the phone. I'm not training in psychiatry, but mental illness such as personality disorder is definitely in my differential diagnosis as an explanation for her behavior. Maybe she has some complex personal/family issues going on, who knows. I figured I'd just suck it up for the short term and do my best to react professionally to whatever insults she would throw my way, and at least appear to be taking her feedback into consideration.

But, she recently confronted me in the hallway to ask about a case (it turned out to be another resident's case), which escalated to ranting and posturing about... well frankly after about two minutes into her monologue with her face centimeters from mine, I can hardly recall anything she actually said. I must have tuned her out. Realizing this was getting nowhere and we both needed to cool off, I stepped back from her, at which point she pushed me pretty hard for trying to get away. I told her that I thought pushing me was inappropriate. She then seemed to get even more angry, brought me into a room and shut the door, when she continued to berate me, and after nodding my head at her for a few minutes, I attempted to leave at which point she blocked me from the door, holding the door shut, insisting she finish her point. She pushed me away from the door. When she wasn't as close to the door, I eventually walked out, and she followed me down the hallway and continued yelling at me at my desk. This is all witnessed by various people at various times during the argument. Oh and by the way this was in academic offices in the main hospital but not anywhere near patients.

So far I haven't found any threads on sdn describing anything like this, but I'm sure there are some of you that have heard stories about hospital employees being physically aggressive, and I'm not talking about the circumstance of a surgeon hitting the hand of a resident surgeon who is fumbling up in the surgical field. This had nothing to do with a patient emergency. What was the outcome, did the person who reported the aggression have any negative consequences? I'm sure a lot of this stuff goes unreported.

Go to HR right now.

 

[Goro]

I wrote back with a simple 'ok - see you then.' He hasn't denied my request, yet.
I like the idea about reporting to medical board but unless prosecuted, it's just my word against hers.

You really think that you're the first person that she's assaulted?

When your case becomes public, others will come forth to back you up.

Think Bill Cosby. And Der Trumppenfuhrer.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

You really think that you're the first person that she's assaulted?

When your case becomes public, others will come forth to back you up.

Think Bill Cosby. And Der Trumppenfuhrer.

Exactly what I said earlier, but changed it to Sandusky because Cosby is still technically innocent.

No way he is the first victim.

This attending is the female equivalent of Ohio's Bahnson.

 

[Goro]

Exactly what I said earlier, but changed it to Sandusky because Cosby is still technically innocent.

No way he is the first victim.

True that.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Wilson v. Bahnson et al.pdf

OP, if you have some free time or whatever, flip through this federal complaint. You may be surprised to learn what sorts of things the medical hierarchy exposed residents to for a very long time at Ohio's Urology residency program.

I want to thank you for sharing your experience. The sad truth is these things happen far more than we like to admit.

You really are brave for sharing.

You are not alone.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I don't usually disagree with aPD but I do here. Attendings can do their own work. They may not want to but if they can't then they aren't really attendings.

The police have been called with a criminal allegation. The idea that this is a lesser choice than HR is false. The OP may even be required to notify HR by their employment contract (being aware of criminal behavior at work). There can be no further interaction between them without incredible risk to the OPs career.

OP, you don't have allies.

 

[rokshana]

This thread is getting hot and angry. And that's not going to help anyone. In fact, to the OP, getting really angry and over-reacting could backfire badly on you.

Again, as I mentioned, this type of behavior by anyone is unacceptable. But don't make the mistake of making matters worse / creating problems for yourself by over-reacting.

So:

1. Your best play here is not to demand that you be switched to another service. There may be complicated reasons that make that difficult, they could argue that this is a "curriculum" issue (i.e. you need an extra few months of this rotation just like everyone else), etc. Not to mention that this just dumps the problem onto the next person who rotates onto the service. Instead, demand a safe working environment. You're happy to continue on this service and do your job, but only if all yelling, berating, maltreatment, and especially physical contact cease immediately. I'd also ask that you not have any private meetings with her -- that you always want a chaperone present.

These requests are completely reasonable, and fully within your rights. They may decide that switching you to another service is the best way to defuse the situation. But your best play here is to set these expectations, and then leave them the wiggle room to sort it out. Perhaps they will switch her off service? Etc.

2. If you decide to record anything, be very careful. Some states have 2 party consent, recording someone without their knowledge can be a crime (and then the video may not be usable anyway). Plus, if you record any patient information that's a HIPPA violation. And your institution may have rules also -- ours does, no video without full consent (i.e. patients are not allowed to record clinical visits on the sly). So overall I am afraid this is bad advice, unless you're 100% certain you know what you're doing.

3. You're angry. I get that. And you deserve to be angry. But take a few deep breaths. Take the high road here. Be the better person. No one can fault you for that.

My advice to video or record wasn't necessarily for legal purposes but to disprove a he said she said... especially if she becomes physical again...

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

OP, thumbs up if you're still alive.

 

[Asteroid Body]

Update: During the meeting, I learned one or more of the witnesses had approached my supervisors to report the incident as well. I was instructed to continue the rotation with her as they thought it would work out best for me. She was 'talked to' today by the vice chair but I still have to work with her for the rest of the week. I never went to HR. My suspicions that she had been covertly stacking the evidence against me by reporting my mistakes to my supervisors was confirmed... not sure what it will be like tomorrow or the rest of the week now that she has officially been disciplined. Nothing bad has happened to me yet. I was reassured that all of her performance evaluations would be 'filtered' through that supervisor, but my gut tells me that is not reassurance against retaliation.

 

[IM2GI]

Update: During the meeting, I learned one or more of the witnesses had approached my supervisors to report the incident as well. I was instructed to continue the rotation with her as they thought it would work out best for me. She was 'talked to' today by the vice chair but I still have to work with her for the rest of the week. I never went to HR. My suspicions that she had been covertly stacking the evidence against me by reporting my mistakes to my supervisors was confirmed... not sure what it will be like tomorrow or the rest of the week now that she has officially been disciplined. Nothing bad has happened to me yet. I was reassured that all of her performance evaluations would be 'filtered' through that supervisor, but my gut tells me that is not reassurance against retaliation.

Did you mention the police report?

 

[Asteroid Body]

Did you mention the police report?

Nope. Still have it in the back pocket.

 

[Etorphine]

Knew it^. It sounds like she is on a mission and trying to discredit your character. Anytime you talk with a supervisor about this, you should drop the B-word (battery) and C word (criminal) activity. It is good that you are continuing to work with her given that you have been instructed to, but you should be clear in your conversations that you are considering pressing charges. Get the heat off your back and onto hers - where it belongs. You have a right to not be battered at work.

 

[Apollyon]

Nope. Still have it in the back pocket.

Dude, you sound like the pedestrian struck in the crosswalk - you'll be the rightest dead guy around.

B and C, man. Really!

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Dude, you sound like the pedestrian struck in the crosswalk - you'll be the rightest dead guy around.

B and C, man. Really!

OP is making the right decisions and keeping his cards close to his chest - smart man.

The program knows its in trouble, and praying OP keeps his dogs leashed.

Very smart.

 

[Asteroid Body]

Sigh, unfortunately the outcome is ridiculously depressing. In a followup meeting with the Vice Chair, I was basically told that it would be stupid for someone of my status to make a complaint, that I would come off as a conspiracy theorist if I were to accuse a chief of service of pushing me, because I am making up stuff to avoid a bad evaluation. The description of the event was somewhat contorted and NORMALIZED as if it goes on in every department in the hospital. He giggled when I used the B word. Told that I would 'never win with the GME' and it was not in my best interests to fight this battle. Although there is so far no negative blowback for me that I know of, she will probably be let off with an undocumented warning. I'll probably just finish the rotation with a so-so grade, nobody believes my story, and life will go on.

If I were Bill Cosby, I'd apply for a job here.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Sigh, unfortunately the outcome is ridiculously depressing. In a followup meeting with the Vice Chair, I was basically told that it would be stupid for someone of my status to make a complaint, that I would come off as a conspiracy theorist if I were to accuse a chief of service of pushing me, because I am making up stuff to avoid a bad evaluation. The description of the event was somewhat contorted and NORMALIZED as if it goes on in every department in the hospital. He giggled when I used the B word. Told that I would 'never win with the GME' and it was not in my best interests to fight this battle. Although there is so far no negative blowback for me that I know of, she will probably be let off with an undocumented warning. I'll probably just finish the rotation with a so-so grade, nobody believes my story, and life will go on.

If I were Bill Cosby, I'd apply for a job here.

Did you record the convo like Rokshana suggested?

Can you tell us your program's name at some point?

 

[rokshana]

Sigh, unfortunately the outcome is ridiculously depressing. In a followup meeting with the Vice Chair, I was basically told that it would be stupid for someone of my status to make a complaint, that I would come off as a conspiracy theorist if I were to accuse a chief of service of pushing me, because I am making up stuff to avoid a bad evaluation. The description of the event was somewhat contorted and NORMALIZED as if it goes on in every department in the hospital. He giggled when I used the B word. Told that I would 'never win with the GME' and it was not in my best interests to fight this battle. Although there is so far no negative blowback for me that I know of, she will probably be let off with an undocumented warning. I'll probably just finish the rotation with a so-so grade, nobody believes my story, and life will go on.

If I were Bill Cosby, I'd apply for a job here.

Didn't you say there was a witness? File the police report...
They are trying to intimidate you in not making this public.

OTOH you have only a few more weeks to go... wait til you graduate and then file a compliant with the medical board... and make sure you give the board a copy of your police report.

And you should be wearing a go pro for the rest of your rotation.

And if your acgme survey has not been done yet... put this information in it... as well as telling HR your exit interviews

 

[Asteroid Body]

Did you record the convo?

Can you tell us your program's name at some point?

Just notes I've been jotting down... no tape/video. I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to be dropping names of programs in a forum such as this. But if anyone wants to talk about residency programs in my specialty or in general, feel free to pm me, bwhaha

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Didn't you say there was a witness? File the police report...
They are trying to intimidate you in not making this public.

OTOH you have only a few more weeks to go... wait til you graduate and then file a compliant with the medical board... and make sure you give the board a copy of your police report.

And you should be wearing a go pro for the rest of your rotation.

And if your acgme survey has not been done yet... put this information in it... as well as telling HR your exit interviews

Yep. Keep your head down for the next 3 weeks. Come July 1, do all of the above.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Just notes I've been jotting down... no tape/video. I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to be dropping names of programs in a forum such as this. But if anyone wants to talk about residency programs in my specialty or in general, feel free to pm me, bwhaha

Completely understandable. Thank you for even sharing your story.

There are many others like you, OP. Sad, but true.

A resident is but a drop in the bucket. We can, and will, change that.

 

[Asteroid Body]

Didn't you say there was a witness? File the police report...
They are trying to intimidate you in not making this public.

OTOH you have only a few more weeks to go... wait til you graduate and then file a compliant with the medical board... and make sure you give the board a copy of your police report.

And you should be wearing a go pro for the rest of your rotation.

And if your acgme survey has not been done yet... put this information in it... as well as telling HR your exit interviews

Last time I checked the ACGME survey only contains multiple choice questions. There is no question asking "Did your attendings ever batter you: always/sometimes/neutral/rarely/never"

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Very unfortunate. Not unsurprising, unfortunately.

So, what to do next. You have to decide whether you want to do anything, or just skate by and get out. I can totally support you making either decision. Taking a stand will be hard and painful. And ugly. And messy. Doing nothing is (relatively) easier, but you'll need to live with that decision.

In any case, there's one thing you need to do: document everything. Date and time. Anything that happens. Whom was there. Exactly what happened. Try to keep your emotions out of it. If you choose to let it go and then this comes back to bite you in the ass anyway, then this timeline of events is very helpful. Try to date/time each entry -- in fact you might email each to an outside account (that way they can't argue you made it up afterwards).

Assuming you want to move forward and do something: The first question is: where is your PD in all of this? You keep talking about the Chair / Vice Chair, one of them might be the PD, or it's someone else. As a PD, if the "problem" is your Chair, it's a really uncomfortable situation since they are your boss. Still, the right thing to do is to stand up for your residents, and do what needs to be done. But that doesn't always happen, for obvious reasons. It's hard. I once had to face down the CEO when they blamed a problem on my residents and fellows, which really was a faculty problem. Got lots of street cred from the residents. Was worried I might find myself on the street, though.

If your PD will take a stand with you, then that's the best play. If not, then one option is with HR. A criminal action here isn't likely going anywhere. I agree this was assault / battery per the law, but with no physical injuries, no clear witnesses, and only a shove, this just isn't enough for a criminal action. Plus, the Chair will have the full resources of the hospital's legal team. It's a losing battle, for no gain for you. The "win" for you is to go to HR, with your police report, and tell them that you're reporting an unsafe work environment. This "talking to" the chair got was probably nothing official. Once HR is involved, they will want to cover the hospital's ass. If the chair is the problem, they may not protect them, and may do whatever it takes to fix the problem. You can certainly tell them that if they don't adequately address the situation, you will be forced to bring a legal action against the hospital. If you're going to pull the nuclear / legal trigger, then it's better to argue for harassment at work rather than assault -- the former has huge financial penalties associated with it, so HR will take it very seriously.

The problem, as I'm sure you and most here know, is that there is some chance that the institution will try to spin this all on you. That you're the troublemaker. Interesting that you brought up Cosby, 'cause it's going to be the same play. She claims rape. He claims she's a bad actor and making it all up. Messy and ugly, as promised. Much depends in this case on your past -- if your prior performance was all stellar, then it's hard for them to prove you're the problem. If you've had "issues" (and who hasn't?) then more of a problem. If this happens then you can still push your case, claim to be a whistleblower, etc, but this will be a long drawn out process.

And that really is the crux. If you let this go, painful as that is, it's over in several weeks. You graduate, walk away, and it's done. If you push for more, either via HR or the courts, this becomes a long process you need to deal with. You'll need to decide whether that's "worth it". You MIGHT be able to settle or get a judgment for a large sum of money, if that's important. Ultimately the key would be more complaints -- if you can get other people to corroborate your story with their own similar tales, that's what sinks the ship.

So:
1. Do nothing, head down. Graduate. Sucks, but you move on with your life
2. Talk to HR. Might result in a good ending -- Chair gets sanctioned or some official action. Helps others down the road. Or, all goes sideways.
3. Get a lawyer. Sue for harassment. Might get a big payday.
4. Talk to the press. Find a local muckraker.

As I mentioned above, I would not record anyone unless you're 100% certain it's legal. With this altercation you've had, it's your word against theirs as to what happened. I'm not doubting you at all, but I'm sure the chair will have a different tale to tell. It will all come down to credibility. If you record someone and it's illegal to do so, you've created perfect evidence of your illegal activity. And if it's obtained illegally, it can't be used in legal actions (usually). This is a very complicated area of the law. Get legal advice before doing so.

 

[libertyyne]

the yelling is not the problem...in the long run big deal...its the the laying of hands on you that is, frankly, a criminal act...

In the United States, criminal battery, or simply battery, is the use of force against another, resulting in harmful, offensive or sexual contact.[1] It is a specific common law misdemeanor, although the term is used more generally to refer to any unlawful offensive physical contact with another person, and may be a misdemeanor or a felony, depending on the circumstances. Battery was defined at common law as "any unlawful and or unwanted touching of the person of another by the aggressor, or by a substance put in motion by him."[2] In most cases, battery is now governed by statutes, and its severity is determined by the law of the specific jurisdiction.

no one should be intimidating not to file charges or make a report to the police (as it seems that the 2nd supervisor is doing). IF there is an internal investigation, great, but that should not mean that the police should not be involved.

There is also a possible False Imprisonment claim.

False imprisonment occurs when a person is restricted in their personal movement within any area without justification or consent. Actual physical restraint is not necessary to a false imprisonment case. False imprisonment is a common-law felony and a tort. It applies to private as well as governmental detention. When it comes to public police, the proving of false imprisonment is sufficient to obtain a writ of habeas corpus.


I dont know what your state is, but you could potentially delay in submitting a tort claim until after you graduate since the statute of limitations is usually 2ish years in most states.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

In case you happen to discuss anything potentially relevant to your situation with HR, your PD, vice chair, et al, over the phone: Many states are one person consent states, meaning only one person (i.e. YOU) has to be be aware the discussion is being recorded for it to be "legal," and more importantly admissable as evidence in court.

Interstate phone calls fall under federal regulation, and one person consent applies to federal regulations in this regard. Example: I call you as you are in Kentucky and I am in Wyoming, considered interstate and one person consent.

Not saying you need to go-go gadget all up on your program, but knowlege is power. And since they are basically covering this issue up, it would come down to hard evidence for your to prove your side.

Can you imagine your vice chair saying "I never told him he would lose any battle with the GME" only to then hear himself a few minutes later saying exactly that on the stand. Mic drop.

 

[Etorphine]

not at all surprised...it's easier for them to bully you into being quiet (protects the program first and foremost, less of a hassle, etc), until they no longer have a choice because it's become such a big issue that higher powers (cops) are involved. Much easier to tell you to STFU about it. Legally being a resident gives you the same rights as an attending when it comes to this, so it's silly for them to pull out the seniority card when it comes to criminality.

I agree with above. Only you can decide what is best, whether that is putting head down or raising issue. Eitherway, if you were to graduate and then press charges a month down the road, not much they could do to stop you.. Within residency, the game is rigged in the favor of the attending every time. For now you can always pull a Comey and keep your own journal with specific names of witnesses.

 

[Asteroid Body]

Very unfortunate. Not unsurprising, unfortunately.

So, what to do next. You have to decide whether you want to do anything, or just skate by and get out. I can totally support you making either decision. Taking a stand will be hard and painful. And ugly. And messy. Doing nothing is (relatively) easier, but you'll need to live with that decision.

In any case, there's one thing you need to do: document everything. Date and time. Anything that happens. Whom was there. Exactly what happened. Try to keep your emotions out of it. If you choose to let it go and then this comes back to bite you in the ass anyway, then this timeline of events is very helpful. Try to date/time each entry -- in fact you might email each to an outside account (that way they can't argue you made it up afterwards).

Assuming you want to move forward and do something: The first question is: where is your PD in all of this? You keep talking about the Chair / Vice Chair, one of them might be the PD, or it's someone else. As a PD, if the "problem" is your Chair, it's a really uncomfortable situation since they are your boss. Still, the right thing to do is to stand up for your residents, and do what needs to be done. But that doesn't always happen, for obvious reasons. It's hard. I once had to face down the CEO when they blamed a problem on my residents and fellows, which really was a faculty problem. Got lots of street cred from the residents. Was worried I might find myself on the street, though.

If your PD will take a stand with you, then that's the best play. If not, then one option is with HR. A criminal action here isn't likely going anywhere. I agree this was assault / battery per the law, but with no physical injuries, no clear witnesses, and only a shove, this just isn't enough for a criminal action. Plus, the Chair will have the full resources of the hospital's legal team. It's a losing battle, for no gain for you. The "win" for you is to go to HR, with your police report, and tell them that you're reporting an unsafe work environment. This "talking to" the chair got was probably nothing official. Once HR is involved, they will want to cover the hospital's ass. If the chair is the problem, they may not protect them, and may do whatever it takes to fix the problem. You can certainly tell them that if they don't adequately address the situation, you will be forced to bring a legal action against the hospital. If you're going to pull the nuclear / legal trigger, then it's better to argue for harassment at work rather than assault -- the former has huge financial penalties associated with it, so HR will take it very seriously.

The problem, as I'm sure you and most here know, is that there is some chance that the institution will try to spin this all on you. That you're the troublemaker. Interesting that you brought up Cosby, 'cause it's going to be the same play. She claims rape. He claims she's a bad actor and making it all up. Messy and ugly, as promised. Much depends in this case on your past -- if your prior performance was all stellar, then it's hard for them to prove you're the problem. If you've had "issues" (and who hasn't?) then more of a problem. If this happens then you can still push your case, claim to be a whistleblower, etc, but this will be a long drawn out process.

And that really is the crux. If you let this go, painful as that is, it's over in several weeks. You graduate, walk away, and it's done. If you push for more, either via HR or the courts, this becomes a long process you need to deal with. You'll need to decide whether that's "worth it". You MIGHT be able to settle or get a judgment for a large sum of money, if that's important. Ultimately the key would be more complaints -- if you can get other people to corroborate your story with their own similar tales, that's what sinks the ship.

So:
1. Do nothing, head down. Graduate. Sucks, but you move on with your life
2. Talk to HR. Might result in a good ending -- Chair gets sanctioned or some official action. Helps others down the road. Or, all goes sideways.
3. Get a lawyer. Sue for harassment. Might get a big payday.
4. Talk to the press. Find a local muckraker.

As I mentioned above, I would not record anyone unless you're 100% certain it's legal. With this altercation you've had, it's your word against theirs as to what happened. I'm not doubting you at all, but I'm sure the chair will have a different tale to tell. It will all come down to credibility. If you record someone and it's illegal to do so, you've created perfect evidence of your illegal activity. And if it's obtained illegally, it can't be used in legal actions (usually). This is a very complicated area of the law. Get legal advice before doing so.

Thanks for the advice. I realize some will criticize this, but my plan is closest to #1, plus option #5 - the subtle social game. So far I have not talked about this incident at work with other staff/residents. Amazing that word hasn't even gotten around yet even though part of it happened in a normally very busy hallway. Mostly I keep to myself and am not known to gossip, and by the way this is a relatively large program. I finally confided in another resident today, who was shocked but found it totally believable given this attending's reputation. Maybe the word will spread to other residents who have experienced the same thing and they will reach out to me. Maybe the word will spread from residents to junior faculty who are "cool and familiar" with residents, then to other faculty, including faculty she has pissed off in the past, which she obviously has... long after I leave the place. As long as I tell the story to a select few and don't come across as malicious, I can't think of a way this would harm me necessarily.

 

[Asteroid Body]

Thanks for the advice. I realize some will criticize this, but my plan is closest to #1, plus option #5 - the subtle social game. So far I have not talked about this incident at work with other staff/residents. Amazing that word hasn't even gotten around yet even though part of it happened in a normally very busy hallway. Mostly I keep to myself and am not known to gossip, and by the way this is a relatively large program. I finally confided in another resident today, who was shocked but found it totally believable given this attending's reputation. Maybe the word will spread to other residents who have experienced the same thing and they will reach out to me. Maybe the word will spread from residents to junior faculty who are "cool and familiar" with residents, then to other faculty, including faculty she has pissed off in the past, which she obviously has... long after I leave the place. As long as I tell the story to a select few and don't come across as malicious, I can't think of a way this would harm me necessarily.

OH yeah, and by the way, OP is a woman.

 

[Gastrapathy]

You can report it to HR after you leave. Tell them you were afraid of retaliation given the lack of support when you reported internally. Telling you that no one will believe you is a classic threat. That way, the next time, it will be a pattern

Leave your report vague enough that they get nervous you'll sue. In fact, you might pay an employment attorney to send the letter. It could say something to the effect that you expect they will investigate her behavior with other staff and offer you a formal apology.
The threat of retaliation is as bad as the assault from the institutions perspective. A letter from an attorney alleging this stuff will get very high level attention.

 

[Apollyon]

OP is making the right decisions and keeping his cards close to his chest - smart man.

The program knows its in trouble, and praying OP keeps his dogs leashed.

Very smart.

Yeah, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

 

[Asteroid Body]

Yeah, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

Because I'm a stupid woman who deserves to get pushed?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Because I'm a stupid woman who deserves to get pushed?

That's what you got out of that post?

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Yeah, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

Easy, tiger.

It's just a discussion. Don't get so worked up.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Thanks for the advice. I realize some will criticize this, but my plan is closest to #1, plus option #5 - the subtle social game. So far I have not talked about this incident at work with other staff/residents. Amazing that word hasn't even gotten around yet even though part of it happened in a normally very busy hallway. Mostly I keep to myself and am not known to gossip, and by the way this is a relatively large program. I finally confided in another resident today, who was shocked but found it totally believable given this attending's reputation. Maybe the word will spread to other residents who have experienced the same thing and they will reach out to me. Maybe the word will spread from residents to junior faculty who are "cool and familiar" with residents, then to other faculty, including faculty she has pissed off in the past, which she obviously has... long after I leave the place. As long as I tell the story to a select few and don't come across as malicious, I can't think of a way this would harm me necessarily.

Sounds totally reasonable. It's possible that a subtle social game will uncover additional people who have experienced similar behavior. Each person on their own might be unwilling to speak out, but as a group might be more willing.

Also, as others have mentioned, because you're so close to the end, you could finish and then submit your complaint after you're done. If the matter is handled internally by HR, you'll never know what happens (unless the chair is forced to step down). Asking for a formal apology is an interesting idea, but (I think) unlikely to be fruitful. If they did apologize in writing, then you could use that in a subsequent legal action. Usually you only get a formal apology as a deal where you settle / agree not to sue. But you never know.

Best of luck. Situation sucks for you, but it will pass. And life seems to be moving on for you. It's still sad that your PD doesn't make a stink about this. I work at a great place with a great chair, so this would never happen. But if it did, I'd be the one leading the charge to remove the chair. Might cost me my job. But there's always another job, and standing up for what's right is the right play.

 

[Dog_luver]

Sounds totally reasonable. It's possible that a subtle social game will uncover additional people who have experienced similar behavior. Each person on their own might be unwilling to speak out, but as a group might be more willing.

Also, as others have mentioned, because you're so close to the end, you could finish and then submit your complaint after you're done. If the matter is handled internally by HR, you'll never know what happens (unless the chair is forced to step down). Asking for a formal apology is an interesting idea, but (I think) unlikely to be fruitful. If they did apologize in writing, then you could use that in a subsequent legal action. Usually you only get a formal apology as a deal where you settle / agree not to sue. But you never know.

Best of luck. Situation sucks for you, but it will pass. And life seems to be moving on for you. It's still sad that your PD doesn't make a stink about this. I work at a great place with a great chair, so this would never happen. But if it did, I'd be the one leading the charge to remove the chair. Might cost me my job. But there's always another job, and standing up for what's right is the right play.

dude you are awsome!

 

[anonperson]

Sigh, unfortunately the outcome is ridiculously depressing. In a followup meeting with the Vice Chair, I was basically told that it would be stupid for someone of my status to make a complaint, that I would come off as a conspiracy theorist if I were to accuse a chief of service of pushing me, because I am making up stuff to avoid a bad evaluation. The description of the event was somewhat contorted and NORMALIZED as if it goes on in every department in the hospital. He giggled when I used the B word. Told that I would 'never win with the GME' and it was not in my best interests to fight this battle. Although there is so far no negative blowback for me that I know of, she will probably be let off with an undocumented warning. I'll probably just finish the rotation with a so-so grade, nobody believes my story, and life will go on.

If I were Bill Cosby, I'd apply for a job here.

Damn, this is sad. Not surprising though.

Such dysfunctional behavior from people in power. I swear there are some huge sociopaths in medicine and for some f$#king reason, there are more than enough people to enable them.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I also don't think asking for an apology will garner an apology but it will worry their HR folks and force them to escalate internally. If there is a compliance attorney at the institution, that is another potential avenue.

 

[JustPlainBill]

I will admit to not reading the thread entirely but just enough to get the gist of it --- I feel your pain. No, I never had an attending push me -- I did however, have one slap me upside the head one night down a blind corner while on an OB/Gyn rotation. When I mentioned it to one of my chiefs (we had 2), they laughed about it but never provided any guidance. My advisor was new and the person who slapped me was her senior colleague and the advisor didn't know what to do. They wanted to go to the APD but I had 5 more weeks of OB to work with this person and was already making my way onto the SList of the residency. So I wrote my advisor an email and waited to see what would happen. The chief proceeded to quickly spread the juicy gossip and I got a phone call on my cell one afternoon from the attending in question who tried to make the case to me that it was unprofessional conduct for me to discuss getting slapped in the head with my chief and they were thinking of making a case over it. I gently reminded them that in Texas, an unwanted touch was considered an assault and this would certainly qualify and that all charges filed above a $250 traffic ticket had to be reported to the state medical board. That quickly dried up that line of discussion. Later on, when I was advised by a friendly vice-chair of the department that the PD was trying to end my medical career and railroad me out of the program, I went to the ACGME/University liaison and made an appointment with them. The day of the appointment, it was readily apparent they had read my file, talked to the PD and were spouting the party line of "suck it up, shut up, do what you're told, cooperate and graduate, don't try to make waves" -- since the system I was a part of is state funded and has deep pockets, I elected at that time not to pursue legally and spent the next 1.5 years of my residency trying hard not to screw up, not necessarily to take advantage of learning opportunities. I graduated late but I graduated, got BC and am now working in the community with no issues. I have recently begun pursuing legal action to have some things removed from my file. If they don't work and play well with others, I'll be considering a discrimination lawsuit to have it removed as I have a very good case.

I decided that it was not going to change, living well is the best revenge and just moved on. Hope it helps. Remember the endgame which is life outside of/after residency ---

 

[Asteroid Body]

UPDATE: I am actually totally bewildered right now. I am sitting at home because I was just dismissed from clinical duties for the next few days by one of my supervisors. He said that he heard I told one of the trainees the story about the physical contact and that trainee reported back to him. As far as I was able to gather, that was his rationale for excusing me for the next few days was because I talked to another trainee about it. He is taking me off the rotation for this action. There had been no other complaints from that attending that week. So, apparently option #5, the subtle social game, has backfired. I have been disciplined.... I think.

I did just get off the phone with HR and filed a formal report with them. I have to say that I think it was a good idea... and possibly a good time for this, now that there is a reasonable question of retaliatory action and discipline for me. I was very clear with HR that my intent was to de-escalate the situation and I wanted an uneventful term for the rest of my employment. However, I seem to have little control over the outcome at this point and I worry there will be negative consequences for my career. They will ask you specifically want you want to see happen as a resolution. No, they aren't your friend but they also have a better sense of what is appropriate/legal administrative action than people who have career training as physicians. They had a more serious reaction to the allegations of physical contact (I also went into minimal details about harassment) and concluded that this should go above the chair to a non-physician department administrator.

I also acknowledged how I think my conduct might have contributed to the situation and asked the HR official whether or not my talking about the event with coworkers was considered inappopriate or unprofessional conduct. Her answer was no. So far she is the most reasonable person I've talked to in all this. But I will try to let you know how it goes...

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Dude, you need to have an attorney on board responding to HR. Everything you say can and will be used against you, as is the case already.

Stop talking to others about your situation, including HR. You have a target on your back.

This is a serious matter and starting a social uprising by "gossping" about your situation to get the word out is only going to hurt you.

You either pull the trigger on fighting or you don't. If you don't want to fight, keep your comments to yourself.

Everyone, including your co-resident/co-victims, are your enemies when it comes to fighting your program.

What you see as an attempt to have justice (shedding light on a potential wide spread issue), they will use as an attempt to demonstrate you as a disruptive resident, one who in fact pushed his attending and not the other way around. Therefore you deserved what you got coming to you all along. Get it?

HR cannot tell you not to discuss with others, as that would be seen as an attempt to put a lid on the potential abusive behavior in your program. Do not forget, however, that HR's job is now to protect the hospital and they will dispose of you if it is in their best interest.

 

[Asteroid Body]

Dude, you need to have an attorney on board responding to HR. Everything you say can and will be used against you, as is the case already.

Stop talking to others about your situation, including HR. You have a target on your back.

This is a serious matter and starting a social uprising by "gossping" about your situation to get the word out is only going to hurt you.

You either pull the trigger on fighting or you don't. If you don't want to fight, keep your comments to yourself.

Everyone, including your co-resident/co-victims, are your enemies when it comes to fighting your program.

I only just made the first contact with HR. Yes, I agree apparently talking about it at work was a bad plan. My intent was not to start a social uprising at all. Sorry!

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

I only just made the first contact with HR. Yes, I agree apparently talking about it at work was a bad plan. My intent was not to start a social uprising at all. Sorry!

It's fine OP. We want the best for you.

Keep your mouth shut and get a lawyer, like now.

They obviously have a plan for you, and you need protection.

You are not going to outsmart them or win in a head on confrontation - they are an organization with lawyers who chew residents up for breakfast.

You ain't nothing but a drop in their bucket.